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chonsigirl;1240743 wrote:

Spot, any other day would be appropriate to ask. Today it is seen in very bad taste. It is a day to honor the dead, not stirring up embers of something else in disrespect for those who died.


oscar;1240744 wrote: Because you have 364 other days you can discuss the failures of the Bush Administration.

I am not commenting further on this thread.


9/11 threads never go down well with some no matter what day they are posted on.

chonsigirl;1240743 wrote: Spot, any other day would be appropriate to ask. Today it is seen in very bad taste. It is a day to honor the dead, not stirring up embers of something else in disrespect for those who died.


None of the dead would be dead if the US Intelligence and Investigation agencies had done their jobs properly. Most of the dead wouldn't be dead if the Homeland defenses had reacted normally on 9/11 instead of failing in such an unexplained way. Why are Americans in general are so content that no Americans have been held to account for the failure to react adequately on 9/11?

buttercup;1240745 wrote: 9/11 threads never go down well with some no matter what day they are posted on.


The day does matter, it is a show of disrespect.

chonsigirl;1240747 wrote: The day does matter, it is a show of disrespect.


The lack of respect is the general refusal to investigate the failures, not a discussion of them. You should be permanently incandescent with rage at everyone who failed to prevent that attack. The fact that you're not is, I suspect, an unwillingness to know the reasons why they failed.

chonsigirl;1240747 wrote: The day does matter, it is a show of disrespect.


Sorry it upsets you Chonsi but nobody here in this forum that i am aware of had any relatives that died that day so i do not see how its disrespectful.

Nobody gets all upset talking about Lockerbie on the day it happened.

I've not noticed anyone accuse spot of tact in the past. But I am utterly certain that his reaction is genuine, heartfelt and respectful of all those who died. It's the way he reacts: "Why? How?"

In Shellbelly's thread, I was shocked when the jumpers were mentioned. I don't know why, particularly, beyond the fact that for me it was somehow the ultimate horror. I can still see them. I avoided mentioning what, for me, is the stand-out memory and from the excellent article that Nomad linked, I'm not the only one.

Buttercup, whether we personally knew them or not, they were our countrymen/women. And that is enough to say, for it to be be meaningful.

Spot, your evasiveness with words is not working on my psyche.

Ian, I am disappointed.

I will put it down to a cultural difference, since I do not understand how some can be so thoughtless, because that is what it is. (and that is said with sincerity, since I believe as much as possible I know you as friends here)

Bash on then, be smug is your quips and quotes and video clips.

The heroes have died.

Those who honor them will. Because in their shadows we walk today. You have only printed words that blow away in the cold wind of indifference, not looking at the situation of their demise, but pettiness of word plays and Bush bashing and other agendas.

They had no agenda but to cross the river into another realm no longer with us. May no one cross over your grave in such a manner one day.

oscar;1240734 wrote: I can not believe any one could be so insensitive to post this thread on this day of all days.

For gods sake... can't you just once leave the conspiricy theories or the Bush Administration behind for one day and think of the people who died and the families that are still grieving?

Your timing is appalling and I'm disgusted.


amen.

chonsigirl;1240754 wrote: Buttercup, whether we personally knew them or not, they were our countrymen/women. And that is enough to say, for it to be be meaningful.



Spot, your evasiveness with words is not working on my psyche.



Ian, I am disappointed.



I will put it down to a cultural difference, since I do not understand how some can be so thoughtless, because that is what it is. (and that is said with sincerity, since I believe as much as possible I know you as friends here)



Bash on then, be smug is your quips and quotes and video clips.



The heroes have died.



Those who honor them will. Because in their shadows we walk today. You have only printed words that blow away in the cold wind of indifference, not looking at the situation of their demise, but pettiness of word plays and Bush bashing and other agendas.



They had no agenda but to cross the river into another realm no longer with us. May no one cross over your grave in such a manner one day.


Ditto your thoughs Chonsi....That's exactly what I would have said if I posted before you;):D

Kathy Ellen;1240761 wrote: Ditto your thoughs Chonsi....That's exactly what I would have said if I posted before you;):D


Perhaps you could show an example of my being evasive with words, then? That had me flummoxed.

buttercup;1240737 wrote: I don't think we have 'ever' had a member here who knew anyone killed on 9/11.
My wife's cousin was in the first Tower, he was 42, leaving behind a wife, & 3 young children!!! Every 911 anniversary, including today, my wife watches all the names of the victims being remembered/called out on the TV rememberance ceremony. (She has a tear in her eyes every year when his name is mentioned!)

spot;1240762 wrote: Perhaps you could show an example of my being evasive with words, then? That had me flummoxed.


Damn....:wah: another misquote....how can we fix this mods...I didn't say this...

Kathy Ellen;1240764 wrote: Damn....:wah: another misquote....how can we fix this mods...I didn't say this...


You did so!!

Chonsi posted "Spot, your evasiveness with words is not working on my psyche" and you answered "Ditto your thoughs Chonsi....That's exactly what I would have said if I posted before you"!

spot;1240765 wrote: You did so!!



Chonsi posted "Spot, your evasiveness with words is not working on my psyche" and you answered "Ditto your thoughs Chonsi....That's exactly what I would have said if I posted before you"!


What the **** are you talking about Spot

Please just stop posting to my posts...thank you...ignore me....

Perhaps a bit of context might help here?

9/11 will never be forgotten by Brits. A lot of our countrymen died that day in the Twin Towers, along with many from other countries. It wasn't just Americans.

I remember them with many other victims of terrorist - or freedom fighter if you will - attacks. Enniskillen (Memorial Service bombed); Lockerbie; the Baltic Exchange (Cleaning lady and her small daughter flayed alive and blinded by flying glass); the Birmingham pub Bombings, the hotel in Brighton. Just a few examples. There are many more. Bloody Sunday, going the other way, and the various Loyalist murders.

Although it's always shocking it's not been unusual - let alone unique, as the Twin Towers are to Americans. My mother shouting and weeping with rage at the tv after the latest PIRA atrocity/statement are part of my memories of growing up. It's not unusual and we talk about it. Lord help us, we're USED to it.

I'm sorry if it has offended, but I think chonsi is right - it's a cultural difference. To America, it is a unique event. For Brits, it's one of far, far too many. No disrespect is intended. In fact the reverse. We honour by remembering and by doing what we can to stop it happening again. Why and How are part of that.

I agree that this thread might have been more tactfully placed now, on 9/12, but this thread is still, imo, In Memoriam.

May the Peace of God, which passeth all understanding, be with you and yours always.

spot;1240641 wrote: *unimportant portions deleted*
Enjoying your shithole, shithole?

Accountable;1240770 wrote: Enjoying your shithole, shithole?


It's your country, mate, so it's your problem. All the Bush Administration succeeded in doing was to open the eyes of the world to US imperialism and dismantle the nation's influence. Eventually you might all get round to fixing your collective problem, antisocial greed, and your collective failing, antisocial patriotism.

Why are Americans in general are so content that no Americans have been held to account for the failure to react adequately on 9/11?

chonsigirl;1240754 wrote:

I will put it down to a cultural difference, since I do not understand how some can be so thoughtless, because that is what it is. (and that is said with sincerity, since I believe as much as possible I know you as friends here)

.


It isn't a cultural difference Chons it is just lack of thought/respect for others.

Clodhopper;1240769 wrote: Perhaps a bit of context might help here?

9/11 will never be forgotten by Brits. A lot of our countrymen died that day in the Twin Towers, along with many from other countries. It wasn't just Americans.

I remember them with many other victims of terrorist - or freedom fighter if you will - attacks. Enniskillen (Memorial Service bombed); Lockerbie; the Baltic Exchange (Cleaning lady and her small daughter flayed alive and blinded by flying glass); the Birmingham pub Bombings, the hotel in Brighton. Just a few examples. There are many more. Bloody Sunday, going the other way, and the various Loyalist murders.

Although it's always shocking it's not been unusual - let alone unique, as the Twin Towers are to Americans. My mother shouting and weeping with rage at the tv after the latest PIRA atrocity/statement are part of my memories of growing up. It's not unusual and we talk about it. Lord help us, we're USED to it.

I'm sorry if it has offended, but I think chonsi is right - it's a cultural difference. To America, it is a unique event. For Brits, it's one of far, far too many. No disrespect is intended. In fact the reverse. We honour by remembering and by doing what we can to stop it happening again. Why and How are part of that.

I agree that this thread might have been more tactfully placed now, on 9/12, but this thread is still, imo, In Memoriam.

May the Peace of God, which passeth all understanding, be with you and yours always. Now It is officialy 9/12 in Blighty world, I will respond. I can see your point Clodness but dis-agree with the comparison. You forget, we were virtually at war with the IRA and bombs going off was a regular and almost predictable event at the time of the troubles.

America was not at war... even then, barely a soul had even heard of Bin Laden. 9/11 came out of the blue and shook the whole world due to the scale of It... sorry but you can not compare the Brighton bomb with that. I would liken 9/11 on a shock scale more to Pearl Harbour.

cars;1240763 wrote: My wife's cousin was in the first Tower, he was 42, leaving behind a wife, & 3 young children!!! Every 911 anniversary, including today, my wife watches all the names of the victims being remembered/called out on the TV rememberance ceremony. (She has a tear in her eyes every year when his name is mentioned!)


Oh Cars, I am so very sorry to hear this.

as I had no idea, please, give her my condolences.

One can only imagine how she feels today..........

spot;1240773 wrote: It's your country, mate, so it's your problem. All the Bush Administration succeeded in doing was to open the eyes of the world to US imperialism and dismantle the nation's influence. Eventually you might all get round to fixing your collective problem, antisocial greed, and your collective failing, antisocial patriotism.

Why are Americans in general are so content that no Americans have been held to account for the failure to react adequately on 9/11?


tell me something, what if it had of happened in your country?

would you be making a mockery out of it?

Ok - I'm not looking for a fight here - but - -

How could Bush see the first plane hit the tower?

And as far as remembering all who died on 9/11

every day WE have soldiers dying for ???? oh, another Bush decision....

very depressing

Patsy

I'm not defending spot on tact, but I am on respect.

Anyways, I've dug myself deep enough, so I'll just apologise and stop digging.

Sorry. It was awful and will never be forgotten.

Clodhopper;1240793 wrote: I'm not defending spot on tact, but I am on respect.

Anyways, I've dug myself deep enough, so I'll just apologise and stop digging.

Sorry. It was awful and will never be forgotten. You fine Clodders... You've been very respectful from what I can see.

Why are you up so late young man?

Originally Posted by spot

It's your country, mate, so it's your problem. All the Bush Administration succeeded in doing was to open the eyes of the world to US imperialism and dismantle the nation's influence. Eventually you might all get round to fixing your collective problem, antisocial greed, and your collective failing, antisocial patriotism

.



Im not upset, Im not angry. Ive come to expect inflammatory comments from you, its who you are. Occassionally though I wonder if your heart is really this cold. I know you love to debate and you challenge others to prove you wrong because you need to win but from time to time I wonder why its so difficult for you to show another side of yourself I truly hope exists within you.

For your sake.

oscar;1240734 wrote: I can not believe any one could be so insensitive to post this thread on this day of all days.

For gods sake... can't you just once leave the conspiricy theories or the Bush Administration behind for one day and think of the people who died and the families that are still grieving?

Your timing is appalling and I'm disgusted.


thank you Oscar. Why this that and the other wasn't done is not important here. It is to honor those who lost their lives and their families not a political bash about.

I can't see where Spot has speculated makes him so wrong.?

sure Spot is harsh - that's the personality

Has to WIN ?- ego - testosterone - over the edge - and we've all been there on one topic or another.

Thoughtless - maybe Spot has experienced more than most - use to bombs blowing up something - can't be out at night - makes a soul tough/hard.

Can any one say they really trusted BUSH.???

And there's alot of individuals with their head in the sand - along for the ride attitude. thousands don't even vote, but come 4th of July hang that Flag with Pride..

We all lost during 911, some hearts ache more than others and we were all frightened and some US white citizens ran out & killed the first dark skin person with a rap on his head. Bush continued to stay in a class room..

I'll tell you - I was appaulled by is numb/ dumb reaction..

Did Bush know prior to the attack ? - documents state all authority was advised..

There's never a good day to discuss 9/11 or Vietnam.

Patsy

Ok, its clearly a cultural difference for 'many' but i would like to point out to 'some' of the American people that surely you are being just as disrespectful (if thats what it is) by entering the thread and posting in it. Not one of you have started a thread to honour / remember the dead. That would have been the respectful thing to do.

buttercup;1240824 wrote: Ok, its clearly a cultural difference for 'many' but i would like to point out to 'some' of the American people that surely you are being just as disrespectful (if thats what it is) by entering the thread and posting in it. Not one of you have started a thread to honour / remember the dead. That would have been the respectful thing to do.



HAH.......And why would any American wish to post any thread about my country anymore here in FG as it would only turn into a slag fest from "some" members here



I will no longer post in these types of threads that turn so sour.

Nomad;1240811 wrote: .



Im not upset, Im not angry. Ive come to expect inflammatory comments from you, its who you are. Occassionally though I wonder if your heart is really this cold. I know you love to debate and you challenge others to prove you wrong because you need to win but from time to time I wonder why its so difficult for you to show another side of yourself I truly hope exists within you.

For your sake.


Very well said Brian...Thank you:)

Kathy Ellen;1240836 wrote:



HAH.......And why would any American wish to post any thread about my country anymore here in FG as it would only turn into a slag fest from "some" members here



I will no longer post in these types of threads that turn so sour.






I don't wish to argue with you Kathy but there are some things worth pointing out in answer to your quote.

1/This is an American based forum.

2/For you to view this thread as you do just falls right into the catagory of (The general refusal of Americans to look squarely at 9/11)

Its a good question and 'some' American people are looking at it and questioning while 'others' do have their head in the sand. I'd be interested to hear how you explain the president seeing the first plane hit on the t.v when there was no coverage shown at that time and hope you come back to talk about it.

buttercup;1240737 wrote: I don't think we have 'ever' had a member here who knew anyone killed on 9/11.


I although I did not know the person personally, I brother’s good friend and work colleague was killed. My brother was very up set. Also, someone I was working with here in Ireland lost a brother-in-law who was a fire fighter.

Again, I did not know the person who lost their life, but I did watch in vain as my friend and work colleague tried desperately to try to find news of the whereabouts of his family member.

What ever the debate here, I am not sure how much the topic of this thread. I am not American, and my political views are not always in line with US foreign policy, but 911 is a day just to give everyone a break, and remember the innocent lives that were lost.

I think spot loves shock & awe, except when Americans do it.:yh_tong2

It does make you wonder, if this was the case with Bush, what was he trying to achieve by being involved in such a tragic event?

All I know is that is has truly affected me. I remember watching and being horrified when the second plane went into the second tower. I then realised that this was a day that would change the world for ever.

I wish that there was,nt such evil people in the world.

hoppy;1240862 wrote: I think spot loves shock & awe, except when Americans do it.:yh_tong2 Yes, but the Americans do It so much better.... Nice one Hops.

lou lou belle;1240865 wrote: It does make you wonder, if this was the case with Bush, what was he trying to achieve by being involved in such a tragic event?

All I know is that is has truly affected me. I remember watching and being horrified when the second plane went into the second tower. I then realised that this was a day that would change the world for ever.

I wish that there was,nt such evil people in the world.


Bush was president. He had no choice but to be involved.

hoppy;1240884 wrote: Bush was president. He had no choice but to be involved. Exactly.... Do we Insist the British PM had some-thing to do with the London Tube Bombings? :rolleyes:

I'm sick of this 'bash America' attitude. On my other forums.. all I see is kind words.

mikeinie;1240858 wrote: I although I did not know the person personally, I brother’s good friend and work colleague was killed. My brother was very up set. Also, someone I was working with here in Ireland lost a brother-in-law who was a fire fighter.

Again, I did not know the person who lost their life, but I did watch in vain as my friend and work colleague tried desperately to try to find news of the whereabouts of his family member.

What ever the debate here, I am not sure how much the topic of this thread. I am not American, and my political views are not always in line with US foreign policy, but 911 is a day just to give everyone a break, and remember the innocent lives that were lost.


so sorry to hear this Mike.



911 is just that, a day for everyone to remember.

Clodhopper;1240769 wrote: Perhaps a bit of context might help here?



9/11 will never be forgotten by Brits. A lot of our countrymen died that day in the Twin Towers, along with many from other countries. It wasn't just Americans.



I remember them with many other victims of terrorist - or freedom fighter if you will - attacks. Enniskillen (Memorial Service bombed); Lockerbie; the Baltic Exchange (Cleaning lady and her small daughter flayed alive and blinded by flying glass); the Birmingham pub Bombings, the hotel in Brighton. Just a few examples. There are many more. Bloody Sunday, going the other way, and the various Loyalist murders.



Although it's always shocking it's not been unusual - let alone unique, as the Twin Towers are to Americans. My mother shouting and weeping with rage at the tv after the latest PIRA atrocity/statement are part of my memories of growing up. It's not unusual and we talk about it. Lord help us, we're USED to it.



I'm sorry if it has offended, but I think chonsi is right - it's a cultural difference. To America, it is a unique event. For Brits, it's one of far, far too many. No disrespect is intended. In fact the reverse. We honour by remembering and by doing what we can to stop it happening again. Why and How are part of that.



I agree that this thread might have been more tactfully placed now, on 9/12, but this thread is still, imo, In Memoriam.



May the Peace of God, which passeth all understanding, be with you and yours always.
So, is what you are saying here is that every time there is a bombing or attack over there, someone in government is held accountable either for it or for not preventing it?



Really?:-2



We more took the approach of what do we do to stop this particular kind of attack from recurring. Up until that day, Americans (well at least this American) accepted hijackings largely as political statements or attempts at political asylum - something contained and something dealt with where ever the plane landed. After 911, a hijacked plane is now necessarily viewed, because of historical perspective, as a lethal weapon.



What I found remarkable about that day when I looked back on it, was how well our government agencies and volunteers operated in the midst of mass confusion. My small Midwest town has a population of just under 10000. They managed to evacuate over 1 and a half times my town from those towers before it collapsed. And that was at a time when most of its inhabitants thought it could not come down. That doesn't count the pentagon.



Shouldas, couldas whodas aside - we were at our finest in that moment - even those of us who could only offer up the will of our American hearts and souls from half a continent away.

I've just spent the evening with an assortment of Muslims icluding an Iraqi, an Iranian and a Pakistani Chap. We have discussed this at length tonight, so while I wait for the police to arrive at my house, anyone Interested in their opinion on 9/11?

oscar;1240950 wrote: I've just spent the evening with an assortment of Muslims icluding an Iraqi, an Iranian and a Pakistani Chap. We have discussed this at length tonight, so while I wait for the police to arrive at my house, anyone Interested in their opinion on 9/11?


OK.........can't refuse that offer.

As much as Spot winds me up with his holier than thou attitude.......you cannot argue with his reasoning.

He has stepped back today, and left this thread to unfold without his input....( I have popped in and out most of the day)

I don't know if the events of 9/11 were a government or at least an establishment conspiracy.

I don't know if it was a concerted effort on behalf of the Muslim world (whatever that is) to give America a bloody nose.

I know it was not an isolated incident........disasters have been occurring around the world for some time......targeting western influence in the Muslim world.

Whatever is happening in the world we know that two main players are involved.......America and Al Qaeda......and a full supporting cast.



My own simple opinion of anyone who KNOWS they are 100% right.......be wary......they are either 'The Son of God' or nutters or misguided.

A signature I use on other forums "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." spoken by Aristotle apparently......thats good enough for me.

I think that is all Spot was asking.......to question seriously the events of that globally significant day......nothing more.

Bruv;1240956 wrote: OK.........can't refuse that offer.

As much as Spot winds me up with his holier than thou attitude.......you cannot argue with his reasoning.

He has stepped back today, and left this thread to unfold without his input....( I have popped in and out most of the day)

I don't know if the events of 9/11 were a government or at least an establishment conspiracy.

I don't know if it was a concerted effort on behalf of the Muslim world (whatever that is) to give America a bloody nose.

I know it was not an isolated incident........disasters have been occurring around the world for some time......targeting western influence in the Muslim world.

Whatever is happening in the world we know that two main players are involved.......America and Al Qaeda......and a full supporting cast.



My own simple opinion of anyone who KNOWS they are 100% right.......be wary......they are either 'The Son of God' or nutters or misguided.

A signature I use on other forums "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." spoken by Aristotle apparently......thats good enough for me.

I think that is all Spot was asking.......to question seriously the events of that globally significant day......nothing more.


Ok .... Police been and gone now :wah:

The overwhelming agreement by the Muslims on this, is that It is and was down to Bin Laden. No conspiricy, no accountability on the Bush Administration other than lax security at airports. They say Laden was active long before 9/11 (did list me the atrocities, but I can't remember now) and 9/11 or something of that magnitude had been expected.

Simple.

oscar;1240957 wrote: Ok .... Police been and gone now :wah:

The overwhelming agreement by the Muslims on this, is that It is and was down to Bin Laden. No conspiricy, no accountability on the Bush Administration other than lax security at airports. They say Laden was active long before 9/11 (did list me the atrocities, but I can't remember now) and 9/11 or something of that magnitude had been expected.

Simple.


So.........you are AGREEING with Spot ?

Been expected ?

And the country that would be expect to know this was not prepared.....or complacent ?

I refer you to the opening post.

Bruv;1240963 wrote: So.........you are AGREEING with Spot ?

Been expected ?

And the country that would be expect to know this was not prepared.....or complacent ?

I refer you to the opening post.
No..... I am not agreeing with Spot. The Muslims make a very good debate on this and I agree with them when they say that Bin Laden was active prior to 9/11 but 'something of that magnitude' was expected but It could have been plotted for any country, not in particular America.

Spot's notion is the same as saying that the British Government should be held accountable for The London Tube bombings.

spot;1240641 wrote:



Why is it that after a disaster of the magnitude of 9/11 Americans in general are so content that no American at all has been held to account for failure to react adequately? Why does nobody want to look under the stone to see what was crawling around?


So why should any American be held to account?

Who was held to account over the London Tube bombings or the Bali Bomb?

If any American should be held to account, then why Bush?

And your final sentence.... Don't tell me... Bush engineered it as an excuse to invade Iraq.

Wick3d D3vi4nt;1241325 wrote: who the **** actually believes that bush was watching a tv in an elementary school?? how ****ing stupid!!Not me either. If he watched it at all it was in his limo on the way there, which is where he was when the first plane hit. It's fully equipped to take video feeds. Why has nobody ever dared ask him what he meant by claiming to have seen it happen before he went into the classroom, which is what his repeated claim actually was if you read it.

the president DOES NOT have a hell of a lot of political pull in ths country..not even a popular president, which bush most definitely was not.In 2001? Go back and check.

I don't think the President does either but any White House administration has it. Apart from Carter's once Miles Copeland and his merry men had put the kybosh on the release of the Iranian Embassy hostages.

i am a proud American, i love this country & it IS a great country

That says it all, really.

Posted by spot

Why is it that after a disaster of the magnitude of 9/11 Americans in general are so content that no American at all has been held to account for failure to react adequately? Why does nobody want to look under the stone to see what was crawling around?


If 911 had been made as a film before it happened it would have failed dismally as being too ridiculous. To suggest it was an elaborate right wing plot to have an excuse to go to war is ridiculous-apart from anything else how would you persuade muslim suicide bombers to take part? What do they get out of it? I don't think much of George bush, cheney et al but to suggest they wwere involved in an elaborate conspiracy is ridiculous. That they took advantage of the situation to pursue their own agenda is beyond doubt imo but that's something for americans to sort out for themselves.

They did look in to it

National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States

We could do with copying that aspect but a committee of MP's the like of which we have just now would probably get distracted looking for a pencil sharpener-and want to claim it on expenses.

There are far more effective and cheaper ways to bring terror to the streets of america, what is remarkable is there have been no further attacks-that if anything gives the lie to the suggestion there is some world wide terrorist conspiracy to bring down the west. It would be so easy to bring terror to the streets of america and there would be very little that could be done to stop it. It's almost lucky would be bombers like elaborate plots and hi-jacking planes.

I'm with clodhopper on this one

We were all brought up with PIRA terrorism. We were used to it and our Intelligence services were used to it and expected it. America was sacrosanct. Never attacked. Never. I think there was a real sense that somehow America couldn't be attacked...

Complacency and inexperience.

I didn't say they hadn't looked into it, I said no American at all has been held to account for failure to react adequately. It's quite clear that the reaction on the day was inadequate - outrageously inadequate. Had the FAA and NORAD reacted in their usual efficient manner there would have been armed fighters flying alongside all four hijacked planes long before they reached their targets. The normal standard practised reaction which had happened as a matter of routine efficiency on every previous occasion just didn't on 9/11. No American at all has been held to account for that failure. There's a general refusal of Americans to look squarely at that lack of normal reaction.

If 911 had been made as a film before it happened it would have failed dismally as being too ridiculous? The plot of the March 4, 2001 pilot episode of a TV spinoff from The X Files, The Lone Gunmen, "depicts a secret faction within the United States government plotting to hijack a Boeing 727 and fly it into the World Trade Center by remote control. The stated motive was to increase the military defense budget. In the episode, the plot is eventually foiled by the protagonists who board the doomed plane and deactivate the malicious autopilot system just seconds before the plane would have reached the World Trade Center." I merely mention it because it didn't fail dismally. Oddly enough it's never, as far as I know, been re-broadcast. It certainly gives the lie to people who said hijacking planes and flying them into buildings hadn't ever crossed the minds of contingency planners though.

Don't mistake what I've posted in the thread, I'm not saying "secret faction within the United States government plotting to hijack" anywhere. All it takes at the most basic level is for an Al Qaeda attack to be launched in the way the White House Administration claimed. Had US air defences not been stood down on the day - I can't find any softer words to describe the lack of FAA and NORAD response - there would have been interceptions. There were invariably interceptions both before 9/11 and subsequently. There were none on the day.

The implication throughout my thread is that the White House Administration knew in advance that this attack was about to happen and that they didn't merely passively stand back and observe it, they drew back the defences because otherwise none of the planes would have possibly found their planned targets. It's why I invited comment on George Bush having twice claimed to have seen the first plane fly into the WTC before going into the classroom. If George Bush was being truthful then the implication automatically follows.

Why are Americans in general are so content that no American at all has been held to account for failure to react adequately, to the extent that nobody has ever asked George Bush to explain what he repeatedly claimed at the time to be true.