Came across this, as you can imagine these debates are not something I go out my way to see.
Tea Party Fanatics Cheer 'Let Him Die' - YouTube
What happens if someone is unemployed and can't afford health care, do they get free medical treatment.
$300 a month, that's a horrendous cost for medical care if it's an accurate figure. Welfareism, socialism? I think he would be laughed off the stage in the UK.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
K.Snyder;1369726 wrote: If it's one thing I despise almost as much as murderers and rapists it's those that don't give a damn about the poor and I apologize.
We educate foreign students in our prestigious Universities only to send them home to out innovate and outsource our technologies. These students aren't the most wealthy I might add.
K.Snyder;1369716 wrote:
Stop being judgmental and holier than though and help somebody today ffs, how's that?
Sort yourself out mate !!!!
Stop being judgmental, your prestigious universities are helping .......make your bleeding mind up will you ?
We educate foreign students in our prestigious Universities only to send them home to out innovate and outsource our technologies. These students aren't the most wealthy I might add.
K.Snyder;1369716 wrote:
Stop being judgmental and holier than though and help somebody today ffs, how's that?
Sort yourself out mate !!!!
Stop being judgmental, your prestigious universities are helping .......make your bleeding mind up will you ?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
Bruv;1369736 wrote: Sort yourself out mate !!!!
Stop being judgmental, your prestigious universities are helping .......make your bleeding mind up will you ?Now you're the one that's confused, Bruv.
"And I thought I could waffle.........you take the blooming biscuit."
What they don't help is the mounting debt they impose on students here, and that's even if these kids can finish. Here, Bruv, here. Now you're just weighing who's more deserving as you had earlier. No such thing as less poor, Bruv. You act like there's a limit to "out innovate and outsource our technologies". You're creating classes again.
Stop being judgmental, your prestigious universities are helping .......make your bleeding mind up will you ?Now you're the one that's confused, Bruv.
"And I thought I could waffle.........you take the blooming biscuit."
What they don't help is the mounting debt they impose on students here, and that's even if these kids can finish. Here, Bruv, here. Now you're just weighing who's more deserving as you had earlier. No such thing as less poor, Bruv. You act like there's a limit to "out innovate and outsource our technologies". You're creating classes again.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
K.Snyder;1369726 wrote: I'm sorry I assumed you were voicing how upset you were of wealth redistribution which is what we get here on a level multiplied by the power of a million. If it's one thing I despise almost as much as murderers and rapists it's those that don't give a damn about the poor and I apologize. Maybe I am not understanding you again, but this section tells me you don't like socialism, with it's wealth distribution. Then you go on to say you dislike, massively, people who have money, not giving a damn about the less fortunate.
Just to go back to this "poverty is not the right term for people of lesser income in advanced nations" I will say I disagree with. America has the highest GDP yet our education is the most expensive which means a significant amount of people have convinced themselves they "know" the difference between a Big Mac and 400lbs. Not too sure what point you are making here, other than perhaps, the richest country in the history of the world cannot deliver adequate education.
We educate foreign students in our prestigious Universities only to send them home to out innovate and outsource our technologies. These students aren't the most wealthy I might add. You SELL education don't you ? The students or their sponsor pay for it. They happen to be 'hungrier' than your own people receiving the same education, and go on to use the tool of education, seeing education as a means to an end rather than education for education's sake. Education is a tool,the same as a hammer, in the right hands it can be constructive or a total waste of time. It says that an education is the only remedy to poverty so long as one realizes they don't have to be trapped by a vacuum of deplorable business practices only for people to scream "they took our jobs" yet turn around and vote for the same gorillas who've stripped them of their opportunity by not allowing government to intervene in education and healthcare. The advanced nations have the highest protectionist barriers to guard their industries and farmers, they all live in a bubble, the advancing nations have popped that bubble, because the west is fat, lazy, and lethargic, unable to respond, despite having a head start.
It's evident the states all look after themselves with an equally obliterated country to come...It's sad...
I'm glad I can just move if I wish
Try China they are on the up !!!!
K.Snyder;1369741 wrote: Now you're the one that's confused, Bruv.
"And I thought I could waffle.........you take the blooming biscuit."
What they don't help is the mounting debt they impose on students here, and that's even if these kids can finish. Here, Bruv, here. Now you're just weighing who's more deserving as you had earlier. No such thing as less poor, Bruv. You act like there's a limit to "out innovate and outsource our technologies". You're creating classes again.
My only confusion is in my inability to put down what I mean, not the best educated or articulate person in this debate obviously.
You seem to see poverty as a local thing, I see it as a global thing, you appear to believe you and your people deserve better, they don't.
I see poverty on a global scale, and bad as the worst in the west can be, it cannot compare with the worst in the world, my sympathy is with them.
My original comment about flat screen TV's should be read in this context, many people have no drinkable water, children die every minute for want of food......so who am I to believe to be most deserving ?
On a national scale many suffer in the UK, we should strive to improve their lot, I am not blind or unsympathetic to local problems.
Just to go back to this "poverty is not the right term for people of lesser income in advanced nations" I will say I disagree with. America has the highest GDP yet our education is the most expensive which means a significant amount of people have convinced themselves they "know" the difference between a Big Mac and 400lbs. Not too sure what point you are making here, other than perhaps, the richest country in the history of the world cannot deliver adequate education.
We educate foreign students in our prestigious Universities only to send them home to out innovate and outsource our technologies. These students aren't the most wealthy I might add. You SELL education don't you ? The students or their sponsor pay for it. They happen to be 'hungrier' than your own people receiving the same education, and go on to use the tool of education, seeing education as a means to an end rather than education for education's sake. Education is a tool,the same as a hammer, in the right hands it can be constructive or a total waste of time. It says that an education is the only remedy to poverty so long as one realizes they don't have to be trapped by a vacuum of deplorable business practices only for people to scream "they took our jobs" yet turn around and vote for the same gorillas who've stripped them of their opportunity by not allowing government to intervene in education and healthcare. The advanced nations have the highest protectionist barriers to guard their industries and farmers, they all live in a bubble, the advancing nations have popped that bubble, because the west is fat, lazy, and lethargic, unable to respond, despite having a head start.
It's evident the states all look after themselves with an equally obliterated country to come...It's sad...
I'm glad I can just move if I wish
Try China they are on the up !!!!
K.Snyder;1369741 wrote: Now you're the one that's confused, Bruv.
"And I thought I could waffle.........you take the blooming biscuit."
What they don't help is the mounting debt they impose on students here, and that's even if these kids can finish. Here, Bruv, here. Now you're just weighing who's more deserving as you had earlier. No such thing as less poor, Bruv. You act like there's a limit to "out innovate and outsource our technologies". You're creating classes again.
My only confusion is in my inability to put down what I mean, not the best educated or articulate person in this debate obviously.
You seem to see poverty as a local thing, I see it as a global thing, you appear to believe you and your people deserve better, they don't.
I see poverty on a global scale, and bad as the worst in the west can be, it cannot compare with the worst in the world, my sympathy is with them.
My original comment about flat screen TV's should be read in this context, many people have no drinkable water, children die every minute for want of food......so who am I to believe to be most deserving ?
On a national scale many suffer in the UK, we should strive to improve their lot, I am not blind or unsympathetic to local problems.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
Bruv;1369756 wrote: Maybe I am not understanding you again, but this section tells me you don't like socialism, with it's wealth distribution. Then you go on to say you dislike, massively, people who have money, not giving a damn about the less fortunate. Not too sure what point you are making here, other than perhaps, the richest country in the history of the world cannot deliver adequate education. You SELL education don't you ? The students or their sponsor pay for it. They happen to be 'hungrier' than your own people receiving the same education, and go on to use the tool of education, seeing education as a means to an end rather than education for education's sake. Education is a tool,the same as a hammer, in the right hands it can be constructive or a total waste of time. The advanced nations have the highest protectionist barriers to guard their industries and farmers, they all live in a bubble, the advancing nations have popped that bubble, because the west is fat, lazy, and lethargic, unable to respond, despite having a head start.
Try China they are on the up !!!!
My only confusion is in my inability to put down what I mean, not the best educated or articulate person in this debate obviously.
You seem to see poverty as a local thing, I see it as a global thing, you appear to believe you and your people deserve better, they don't.
I see poverty on a global scale, and bad as the worst in the west can be, it cannot compare with the worst in the world, my sympathy is with them.
My original comment about flat screen TV's should be read in this context, many people have no drinkable water, children die every minute for want of food......so who am I to believe to be most deserving ?
On a national scale many suffer in the UK, we should strive to improve their lot, I am not blind or unsympathetic to local problems.I advocate socialism on global scale so obviously there's some confusion.
Poverty is relative to locality, yes. The point I was making is that we live in the wealthiest country in the world yet alot of people go through an unsuccessful education system to only have to pay outrageous tuition fees to further their education. What's worse is the fast food here, it's downright suicide. I've always said America should be the last place there should be charity hand outs but to really look at it I think I'd rather take my chances elsewhere if I grew up thinking McDonalds wasn't just an option but my dinner table.
None the less I'd still say America on average has vast opportunity compared elsewhere but I'm merely suggesting we can thwart a potential disaster with a little common sense and to do so at no expense to anyone else. Technologies are equally as vast as the Universe so my emphasis is to invest more in research and development here but something's going terribly wrong.
All in all, and from knowing what I know, I would definitely rather live here from a professional point of view. If I weren't educated enough to stay away from fast food and had to be stuck in a public classroom at a level 3 years below my intellectual capacity I wouldn't mind living elsewhere, honestly. The eduction system here is lacking and the street food will kill you.
I'm always envious of Andrew Zimmerman who travels around he world eating bizarre street foods. They look fresh and delicious. Some of it, of course.
Try China they are on the up !!!!
My only confusion is in my inability to put down what I mean, not the best educated or articulate person in this debate obviously.
You seem to see poverty as a local thing, I see it as a global thing, you appear to believe you and your people deserve better, they don't.
I see poverty on a global scale, and bad as the worst in the west can be, it cannot compare with the worst in the world, my sympathy is with them.
My original comment about flat screen TV's should be read in this context, many people have no drinkable water, children die every minute for want of food......so who am I to believe to be most deserving ?
On a national scale many suffer in the UK, we should strive to improve their lot, I am not blind or unsympathetic to local problems.I advocate socialism on global scale so obviously there's some confusion.
Poverty is relative to locality, yes. The point I was making is that we live in the wealthiest country in the world yet alot of people go through an unsuccessful education system to only have to pay outrageous tuition fees to further their education. What's worse is the fast food here, it's downright suicide. I've always said America should be the last place there should be charity hand outs but to really look at it I think I'd rather take my chances elsewhere if I grew up thinking McDonalds wasn't just an option but my dinner table.
None the less I'd still say America on average has vast opportunity compared elsewhere but I'm merely suggesting we can thwart a potential disaster with a little common sense and to do so at no expense to anyone else. Technologies are equally as vast as the Universe so my emphasis is to invest more in research and development here but something's going terribly wrong.
All in all, and from knowing what I know, I would definitely rather live here from a professional point of view. If I weren't educated enough to stay away from fast food and had to be stuck in a public classroom at a level 3 years below my intellectual capacity I wouldn't mind living elsewhere, honestly. The eduction system here is lacking and the street food will kill you.
I'm always envious of Andrew Zimmerman who travels around he world eating bizarre street foods. They look fresh and delicious. Some of it, of course.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
K.Snyder;1369778 wrote: All in all, and from knowing what I know, I would definitely rather live here from a professional point of view.Actually, to clarify, I'd have no problem living in a nation that predominantly speaks English. If I knew Spanish or German for instance I'd have many more options.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
Bruv;1369674 wrote: Sorry I didn't get any of that.
In response to your statement that nobody dies of starvation in an advanced nation I pointed out the the count published by the UK Office of National Statistics for the number of people to have dies of starvation in the UK has averaged 350 / year over the past few years.
Whilst I'm ready to concede the the UK might no longer qualify as an advanced nation I believe that such a rate (per head of population) is typical of Western nations.
In response to your statement that nobody dies of starvation in an advanced nation I pointed out the the count published by the UK Office of National Statistics for the number of people to have dies of starvation in the UK has averaged 350 / year over the past few years.
Whilst I'm ready to concede the the UK might no longer qualify as an advanced nation I believe that such a rate (per head of population) is typical of Western nations.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
theia;1369682 wrote: Does the ONS state what caused this starvation? If not, where can I find out (bearing in mind that I'm rubbish at identifying sources on google)? I'm just wondering whether the deaths by starvation are due to people not having the money to purchase food.
Sadly, most of them are recorded as dying in hospital but I suspect that that is just their final port of call. It does record that most are elderly but it does not list the deaths by income bracket. If pushed, however, I would probably speculate that many of the elderly cut back on food through poverty and that many would be malnourished through lack of care.
Sadly, most of them are recorded as dying in hospital but I suspect that that is just their final port of call. It does record that most are elderly but it does not list the deaths by income bracket. If pushed, however, I would probably speculate that many of the elderly cut back on food through poverty and that many would be malnourished through lack of care.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
spot;1369685 wrote: I have a different figure from the ONS at http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/mor ... ocrine.xls
Table 5.4 Deaths: underlying cause, sex and age-group, 2008: Chapter IV: Endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases
E40-E46 Malnutrition M 27
F 40
which is: All "malnutrition" category underlying cause of death in England and Wales in 2008 total 67. Which just goes to show that an essential component of any ONS statistic is its definition and context.
There's a breakdown in that spreadsheet of age and sex, and sub-categories of Nutritional marasmus (a form of severe protein-energy malnutrition characterized by energy deficiency) and unspecified protein-energy malnutrition, severe and other.
67 or 350, it still happens, I'd doubt most were deliberate, I'm sure all could have been avoided by asking for help in time. The large majority in that spreadsheet were pensioners. What with heating and housing costs I can well imagine a large proportion of those were cutting back for a long period on sufficient food, probably too proud to ask for assistance.
I'd call several of the subsequent rows in the spreadsheet death by malnourishment too, maybe the 350 includes some of those rows. The 67 relates to just that one area of protein-energy malnutrition.
Rats! I pull the figures up, left them in a tab for a day or so in case they were questioned then dropped the link - I'll go looking again.
Table 5.4 Deaths: underlying cause, sex and age-group, 2008: Chapter IV: Endocrine, nutritional and metabolic diseases
E40-E46 Malnutrition M 27
F 40
which is: All "malnutrition" category underlying cause of death in England and Wales in 2008 total 67. Which just goes to show that an essential component of any ONS statistic is its definition and context.
There's a breakdown in that spreadsheet of age and sex, and sub-categories of Nutritional marasmus (a form of severe protein-energy malnutrition characterized by energy deficiency) and unspecified protein-energy malnutrition, severe and other.
67 or 350, it still happens, I'd doubt most were deliberate, I'm sure all could have been avoided by asking for help in time. The large majority in that spreadsheet were pensioners. What with heating and housing costs I can well imagine a large proportion of those were cutting back for a long period on sufficient food, probably too proud to ask for assistance.
I'd call several of the subsequent rows in the spreadsheet death by malnourishment too, maybe the 350 includes some of those rows. The 67 relates to just that one area of protein-energy malnutrition.
Rats! I pull the figures up, left them in a tab for a day or so in case they were questioned then dropped the link - I'll go looking again.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
Bryn Mawr;1369794 wrote: Rats! I pull the figures up, left them in a tab for a day or so in case they were questioned then dropped the link - I'll go looking again.
I apologize, I read the words but did not look at the accompanying graph which shows a more reasonable figure of 82. I've now tracked down the discrepancy which is the inclusion of those dying of dehydration :-
Deaths from malnutrition – the missing ONS data | Byline
The Mail, as usual has a vastly inflated headline :-
'50,000 people dying malnourished in NHS hospitals' claim Tories | Mail Online
but their underlying claim is 239 / year.
I apologize, I read the words but did not look at the accompanying graph which shows a more reasonable figure of 82. I've now tracked down the discrepancy which is the inclusion of those dying of dehydration :-
Deaths from malnutrition – the missing ONS data | Byline
The Mail, as usual has a vastly inflated headline :-
'50,000 people dying malnourished in NHS hospitals' claim Tories | Mail Online
but their underlying claim is 239 / year.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
There we are then, we all have the same data. Except the Mail, and I rate our credibility somewhat higher than theirs. Mine was one year, 2008, while you have the average.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
Bryn Mawr;1369792 wrote: In response to your statement that nobody dies of starvation in an advanced nation I pointed out the the count published by the UK Office of National Statistics for the number of people to have dies of starvation in the UK has averaged 350 / year over the past few years.
Whilst I'm ready to concede the the UK might no longer qualify as an advanced nation I believe that such a rate (per head of population) is typical of Western nations.
As I had replied earlier......
'I would be interested for the reasons for death by malnutrition in the UK.
Are there any medical conditions that cause malnutrition ?
I am not side stepping the facts, but I am surprised to hear that figure.
I would still say nobody needs to die of starvation, and that anybody that does has other problems.'
Can't deny the statistics, but would like to know if some other underlying reasons are involved. With the homeless figures mental issues weighs heavy, I would imagine the same sort of issues are involved with death by malnutrition.
Whilst I'm ready to concede the the UK might no longer qualify as an advanced nation I believe that such a rate (per head of population) is typical of Western nations.
As I had replied earlier......
'I would be interested for the reasons for death by malnutrition in the UK.
Are there any medical conditions that cause malnutrition ?
I am not side stepping the facts, but I am surprised to hear that figure.
I would still say nobody needs to die of starvation, and that anybody that does has other problems.'
Can't deny the statistics, but would like to know if some other underlying reasons are involved. With the homeless figures mental issues weighs heavy, I would imagine the same sort of issues are involved with death by malnutrition.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
Bruv;1369813 wrote: As I had replied earlier......
'I would be interested for the reasons for death by malnutrition in the UK.
Are there any medical conditions that cause malnutrition ?
I am not side stepping the facts, but I am surprised to hear that figure.
I would still say nobody needs to die of starvation, and that anybody that does has other problems.'
Can't deny the statistics, but would like to know if some other underlying reasons are involved. With the homeless figures mental issues weighs heavy, I would imagine the same sort of issues are involved with death by malnutrition.
That's the problem with responding to posts as soon as you read them.
Sadly, I don't know, the details are not in the stats. Yes, there are medical conditions that have malnutrition as a symptom but how much they are involved in the deaths recorded I have no way of telling. I would have thought that psychological problems, old age and infirmity had more impact.
'I would be interested for the reasons for death by malnutrition in the UK.
Are there any medical conditions that cause malnutrition ?
I am not side stepping the facts, but I am surprised to hear that figure.
I would still say nobody needs to die of starvation, and that anybody that does has other problems.'
Can't deny the statistics, but would like to know if some other underlying reasons are involved. With the homeless figures mental issues weighs heavy, I would imagine the same sort of issues are involved with death by malnutrition.
That's the problem with responding to posts as soon as you read them.
Sadly, I don't know, the details are not in the stats. Yes, there are medical conditions that have malnutrition as a symptom but how much they are involved in the deaths recorded I have no way of telling. I would have thought that psychological problems, old age and infirmity had more impact.
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
Bruv;1369813 wrote: As I had replied earlier......
'I would be interested for the reasons for death by malnutrition in the UK.
Are there any medical conditions that cause malnutrition ?
I am not side stepping the facts, but I am surprised to hear that figure.
I would still say nobody needs to die of starvation, and that anybody that does has other problems.'
Can't deny the statistics, but would like to know if some other underlying reasons are involved. With the homeless figures mental issues weighs heavy, I would imagine the same sort of issues are involved with death by malnutrition.
You certainly can deny the statistics, Bruv. Statistics themselves are just that, statistics. But then they have to be interpreted and it's amazing how many different interpretations there can be using the same figures.
'I would be interested for the reasons for death by malnutrition in the UK.
Are there any medical conditions that cause malnutrition ?
I am not side stepping the facts, but I am surprised to hear that figure.
I would still say nobody needs to die of starvation, and that anybody that does has other problems.'
Can't deny the statistics, but would like to know if some other underlying reasons are involved. With the homeless figures mental issues weighs heavy, I would imagine the same sort of issues are involved with death by malnutrition.
You certainly can deny the statistics, Bruv. Statistics themselves are just that, statistics. But then they have to be interpreted and it's amazing how many different interpretations there can be using the same figures.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
The figures are shameful, but surely it cannot be lack of availability of food or finance.
To up the ante in the gmc yorkshiremen dialogue, I remember as a young family man being penniless with young children over the weekend, no cash to feed meters, no food in the larder. My wife phoned around and got some charitable agency to visit, we both got a lecture, some bread and cans of beans, and if I recall a few pounds to tide us over till Monday.
Can't remember how we were in that position though...........youth and stupidity I suppose.
To up the ante in the gmc yorkshiremen dialogue, I remember as a young family man being penniless with young children over the weekend, no cash to feed meters, no food in the larder. My wife phoned around and got some charitable agency to visit, we both got a lecture, some bread and cans of beans, and if I recall a few pounds to tide us over till Monday.
Can't remember how we were in that position though...........youth and stupidity I suppose.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
U.S. Poverty Rate at All Time High
theia;1369816 wrote: You certainly can deny the statistics, Bruv. Statistics themselves are just that, statistics. But then they have to be interpreted and it's amazing how many different interpretations there can be using the same figures.
I know what you are saying, from one of Bryn's links I read that "Deaths where malnutrition and effects of hunger were mentioned on the death certificate, by place of death, England and Wales, 1997-20091,2,3,4" .......so 'mentioned on the death certificate' might mean more than death by malnutrition alone.
I know what you are saying, from one of Bryn's links I read that "Deaths where malnutrition and effects of hunger were mentioned on the death certificate, by place of death, England and Wales, 1997-20091,2,3,4" .......so 'mentioned on the death certificate' might mean more than death by malnutrition alone.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth