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Hope6;1374966 wrote: Okay I'll probably make some folks mad with my opinion...but its my opinion and I have a right to it. I believe life begins at conception. Anything done to the baby after that I believe is murder. If the people having an abortion and the doctors who give them can live with that then that is, as the old saying goes, between them and there God. And before people start saying what about cases of rape....tell me where that is that babys fault...same goes for being to young...if you feel like you can't care for the child, give it up for adoption. I was 42 when I found out I was pregnant, the doctors starts asking. do you want this test or that, I told him no I don't want any. He said well if you don't plan to act on the results then theres no need to take the teat.




Of course one can understand where you're coming from cos you battled to fall pregnant. Of course it is your right to feel the way you do about abortion. Personally I have never ever asked no expected any earthling to agree with my point of view. I merely asked: "How do YOU feel about abortion?"

flopstock;1374944 wrote: At 41, after spotting every day for 5 weeks, I went to the doctor and discovered I was pregnant.

I had previously enjoyed two completely uneventful pregnancies.

I have always been and still am pro choice.

The doctor asked what I wanted to do and I told him that if I could carry it, if it wasn't suffering and had a shot at a full healthy life - I was going to have to go for it.

I spent much of the next 7+ months in bed with my feet up and my body shutting down while piling on the pounds. I went into it at a size 6 and came out a 16. Can vaguely remember my shape, but I surely haven't seen it in a mirror since. My organs started shutting down and I had to have an emergency C-Section.

She's a beautiful, almost 13 year old, straight A student, with more personality behind that shyness than I could ever lay claim to. She loves me.

I made the right choice.

But it wasn't for any one of you, to tell me what my choice needed to be. It came from within myself. I don't know that I could have risked that some choice if my other two were not grown and no longer in need of me.


Flopstock...this is beautiful! For you it was the right decision....so happy to hear it!

LadyJ

jones jones;1374970 wrote: Of course one can understand where you're coming from cos you battled to fall pregnant. Of course it is your right to feel the way you do about abortion. Personally I have never ever asked no expected any earthling to agree with my point of view. I merely asked: "How do YOU feel about abortion?"


It's often someone religious that starts these kinds of threads usually so they can have a rant. If you're not religious the tendency is to think it is a choice that is best left to the mother. Those most condemnatory of single mothers tend to be of a religious bent as well, it seems some want to mete out god's punishment on his behalf. Why they don't decide that maybe god meant that life for that particular individual and not be judgemental is not a question I would normally ask as it sets of followers of the church of the cut and paste.

posted by flopstock

At 41, after spotting every day for 5 weeks, I went to the doctor and discovered I was pregnant.

I had previously enjoyed two completely uneventful pregnancies.

I have always been and still am pro choice.

The doctor asked what I wanted to do and I told him that if I could carry it, if it wasn't suffering and had a shot at a full healthy life - I was going to have to go for it.

I spent much of the next 7+ months in bed with my feet up and my body shutting down while piling on the pounds. I went into it at a size 6 and came out a 16. Can vaguely remember my shape, but I surely haven't seen it in a mirror since. My organs started shutting down and I had to have an emergency C-Section.

She's a beautiful, almost 13 year old, straight A student, with more personality behind that shyness than I could ever lay claim to. She loves me.

I made the right choice.

But it wasn't for any one of you, to tell me what my choice needed to be. It came from within myself. I don't know that I could have risked that some choice if my other two were not grown and no longer in need of me.






My heart goes out to you. That's the thing though it should be your choice to make. I know one couple who had children knowing they were likely to pass on a genetically transmitted disease and had to live with their decision, I also know another couple who opted not to have children but have adopted instead for the same reason. I'm just glad I have never had to face such a dilemma.

K.Snyder;1374925 wrote: That warning is advocating illegal abortion which effects the public. Law is influenced by the unrest of the people. Let's not pretend going around preaching something doesn't effect the public, especially by claiming an act of "God" and then running off...


No. The message has nothing to do with the legal or illegal status of abortion. The Message will affect those who are open to it. And those people will not seek an abortion irrespective of its legal status.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

gmc;1374926 wrote: posted by adstar:I would not agree with anyone who told me that. People can control when they become pregnant. I have nothing against birth control as long as the method used does not do damage to the reproductive ability of the person involved.


posted by adstar:The morning after pill does Not prevent a woman becoming pregnant. Once the Egg unites with the sperm inside a woman then she is pregnant. So it is an abortion pill, it is not a method of stopping the Egg from uniting with a Sperm.


Make up your mind. You either think no one should be able to dictate when someone becomes pregnant or you do not. If the morning after pill, for instance,is banned because some people think it is an abortion pill that is exactly what you are doing


I am very clear in my mind. The lack of understanding comes from you. I made it clear that a contraceptive was something that prevented the union of the Egg and the sperm. And anything that stops a pregnancy after the egg and sperm have united is method of abortion. Clearly the morning AFTER pill is Not a contraceptive. It does not prevent the union of the egg and the sperm. It is a method of abortion because it comes into effect AFTER the egg and sperm have united. Thus it is a method of murdering the new human life.





[QUOTE]posted by adstar:Well since i am not a catholic what they teach means as much to my faith as what islam or hunduism teaches.


I don't really care what religion you are, Would you vote for a politician whose faith means he would ignore the wishes of his constituents and obey their religious leader and impose that belief on you?


Well i said: "As for me i do not engage in politics and as far as my faith is concerned what the authorities decide is their business." Voting is part of engaging in politics. Therefore I do not vote. You should try to do your best to discuss things with the person your discussing things with. You and Me. You question is irrelevant because i do not vote.



If i said an islamic fundamentalist who wanted to impose sharia law I suspect you would object -


If the authorities decided to impose sharia law then so be it. I would not change anything in regard to my faith.



how about a catholic who wants to ban contraception altogether


If the authorities decided to impose a ban on contraception altogether then so be it. I would not change anything in regard to my faith.





or a Christian fundamentalist who believes life begins at conception and would ban the day after pill?


If the authorities decided to impose a ban on the day after pill then so be it. I would not change anything in regard to my faith.



Because that is exactly the kind of issue that is at stake. The free availability of contraceptives has been achieved in the teeth of ferocious opposition from religious groups of all kinds.


Yeah. So??? How is this relevant to our discussion?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

jones jones;1374930 wrote:

"However, we do NOT know when the life force (soul) enters such an entity."

Interesting. So you believe the soul/life force as you call it exists separate from the body but then "enters" it at a certain stage of development?


I most certainly do ... after all I believe in reincarnation.


Oh ok then, your not an atheist. Sorry for assuming that.

So are you a hindu? What are your religious beliefs?



All praise the Ancient of Days

Hope6;1374966 wrote: Okay I'll probably make some folks mad with my opinion...but its my opinion and I have a right to it. I believe life begins at conception. Anything done to the baby after that I believe is murder. If the people having an abortion and the doctors who give them can live with that then that is, as the old saying goes, between them and there God. And before people start saying what about cases of rape....tell me where that is that babys fault...same goes for being to young...if you feel like you can't care for the child, give it up for adoption. I was 42 when I found out I was pregnant, the doctors starts asking. do you want this test or that, I told him no I don't want any. He said well if you don't plan to act on the results then theres no need to take the teat.


Blessings and hope to you Hope6.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar;1375020 wrote: And those people will not seek an abortion irrespective of its legal status. So, then, you do admit it influences their decision to not have an abortion...

The facts are that conception may occur (if at all) anywhere from 30 minutes to five days (or even longer in some cases) following a male ejaculating sperm into the female. There is no way to tell when an egg becomes fertilized, if it does at all, or when it became fertilized, so those choosing the morning after pill, or anyone else for that matter, knows not if they've conceived. Adstar, you might as well say that conception occurs when any male and female engage in sexual activity together. Of course that's exactly where the religious right would like to lead us as evidenced by their calling sex outside of wedlock a sin.

Anyone who believes in "God" and have tolerance for any leeway when it comes to this subject should be angry at their God more than anyone else because of all the pregnancies that do not occur after sexual activity or lose their pregnancy due to God's will (natural causes).

Late to the topic, but.......

As someone who has the highest regard for life, and the belief it is wrong to take away a life for any reason, my feelings about abortion may surprise.

Life I believe, resides in the brain, so the prevention of conception or the termination of a foetus in it's early stages is not taking away a life.

My only problem with abortion is that it has replaced conception as a form of birth control, and that it is often entered into lightly by some people.

jones jones;1374970 wrote: Of course one can understand where you're coming from cos you battled to fall pregnant. Of course it is your right to feel the way you do about abortion. Personally I have never ever asked no expected any earthling to agree with my point of view. I merely asked: "How do YOU feel about abortion?"


Aww I know you aren't bothered by my opinion JJ because you know my situation. But some people have gotten mad at me in the past because of my view on this subject.

Adstar;1375027 wrote: Blessings and hope to you Hope6.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days


Thank you....I have my blessing with I had my Jacob......he is truly a miracle.

jones jones;1374665 wrote: You are the voice of reason Ms Koan. I approached the thread assuming that the parents would collaborate before making such a decision. As a man I obviously tend to see things from a male perspective. It is after all the female who carries and nurtures the foetus until full term or otherwise. That being so it is the mother of the unborn earthling who surely must have the final say in terms of whether or not she wishes to give birth to he/she.


I didn't intend on being the voice of reason, only that of fact.

I'd be interested in seeing the results of all abortions requiring the info of whether or not the father supported the abortion, just to gather stats. Not to say the father should be allowed veto yet... just info gathering.

When I had my abortion it was not decided by reason. It was a compound of fear because society does not support thy neighbours and contempt for the father. I don't know that he agreed with the choice, I didn't allow him the chance to debate.

K.Snyder;1375030 wrote: So, then, you do admit it influences their decision to not have an abortion...


It influences whom it influences. Why even make this point? Puzzled.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ahso!;1375031 wrote: The facts are that conception may occur (if at all) anywhere from 30 minutes to five days (or even longer in some cases) following a male ejaculating sperm into the female. There is no way to tell when an egg becomes fertilized, if it does at all, or when it became fertilized, so those choosing the morning after pill, or anyone else for that matter, knows not if they've conceived.


The morning after Pill stops a pregnancy when it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching itself to the wall of the uterus. That’s what it is designed to do. It is irrelevant wether a union has happened or not during the encounter. The morning after pill is not designed to prevent the union of the egg and the sperm and therefore is an abortion pill.





Adstar, you might as well say that conception occurs when any male and female engage in sexual activity together.


I have no problem with contraception. My problem is with abortion.



Anyone who believes in "God" and have tolerance for any leeway when it comes to this subject should be angry at their God more than anyone else because of all the pregnancies that do not occur after sexual activity or lose their pregnancy due to God's will (natural causes).


God can end a life or prevent a life from starting at anytime and is justified in doing so. Christians believe that We are Not Justified in taking a life.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar;1375165 wrote:

Christians believe that We are Not Justified in taking a life.




Not only Christians

Adstar;1375165 wrote: The morning after Pill stops a pregnancy when it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching itself to the wall of the uterus. That’s what it is designed to do. It is irrelevant wether a union has happened or not during the encounter. The morning after pill is not designed to prevent the union of the egg and the sperm and therefore is an abortion pill.There's fact and there's religious twisting of fact. Preventing the union of sperm and egg is exactly what the Plan B pill was designed for. Check with the designers if you like, that might be a better place to get your information instead of right-winged propaganda sites. (Not that you've provided any citations up to now. Would you like to at this juncture?)



First, it is pure speculation that Plan B prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the lining of the uterine wall. The way Plan B works is to prevent the egg from being released from the ovaries, if the drug, which is a small amount of synthetic human hormones is taken timely. Plan B has only an 89% success rate. Second, once again, there is no way of telling if an egg did in fact become fertile other than a female becoming pregnant.

"If taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, Plan B emergency contraception can reduce a woman's chances of pregnancy by as much as 89%.

It contains a high dose of birth control drugs and works by preventing ovulation or fertilization. It also may prevent a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterus, but recent research suggests that's not likely. In medical terms, pregnancy begins when a fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus.

Plan B will not interfere with an established pregnancy. Religious conservatives say it's the equivalent of an abortion pill because it can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus." Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 ... pill_N.htm



And



" Plan B

A drug could lower the risk of pregnancy in one of three ways:


It could kill all of the sperm after ejaculation.

It could prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.

It could either prevent or delay the release of the egg. Levonorgestrel takes this third path.


When you purchase Plan B, you get two pills. Each pill contains 0.75 milligrams of levonorgestrel. You take the first pill as soon as possible after unprotected sex, and you take the second pill 12 hours later.

Although scientists aren't completely sure how it works, they believe that levonorgestrel prevents pregnancy either by stopping the ovulation process or by disrupting the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the fallopian tubes. Some speculate that the drug may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting as well, perhaps by making the uterine lining less receptive to the egg.

Levonorgestrel does this by disrupting the natural hormonal cycle. It contains a synthetic form of progesterone (regular birth-control pills contain it in lower doses). The high doses of progesterone in Plan B are disruptive enough to prevent fertilization or implantation.

If ovulation has already occurred, levonorgestrel will be less effective. It will be most effective if it's taken before ovulation. This is why it's important to take Plan B as soon as possible after unprotected sex. Once a fertilized egg implants, Plan B will have no effect. This explains why doctors advise women to take Plan B no later than 72 hours after unprotected sex -- the chances of it working are very low at that point.

Because of all these variables, Plan B is not 100 percent effective. But in clinical trials, it has been found to be 89 percent effective." Source:

Discovery Health "How does the morning-after pill work?"

As for your God ending a life whenever he likes: murder is murder regardless of who is responsible, no?

Adstar;1375165 wrote: Christians believe that We are Not Justified in taking a life. Then why do a large number of christians support the death penalty and seem to find themselves involved in so many wars? Want to deny history, too?

Ahso!;1375170 wrote: Then why do a large number of christians support the death penalty and seem to find themselves involved in so many wars? Want to deny history, too?


It could be the voices in their head.

Ahso!;1375170 wrote: Then why do a large number of christians support the death penalty and seem to find themselves involved in so many wars? Want to deny history, too?


They don't need to deny history some of them just fail to recognize History, because they substituted history with the bible

posted by adstar

I am very clear in my mind. The lack of understanding comes from you. I made it clear that a contraceptive was something that prevented the union of the Egg and the sperm. And anything that stops a pregnancy after the egg and sperm have united is method of abortion. Clearly the morning AFTER pill is Not a contraceptive. It does not prevent the union of the egg and the sperm. It is a method of abortion because it comes into effect AFTER the egg and sperm have united. Thus it is a method of murdering the new human life.


You miss my point, on the one hand you state a woman should be able to choose when they become pregnant then you say not by using the day after pill, which, for example means any woman who has been raped would be deprived of any choice in the matter of whether she carries her baby to term by those who, like you, believe the morning after pill is abortion by another means.

God can end a life or prevent a life from starting at anytime and is justified in doing so. Christians believe that We are Not Justified in taking a life.




I suppose the logic is it was god's will she was raped and therefore she must accept her fate if she becomes pregnant.

I suppose these guys were just doing god's work

Systematic rape of Bosnian Muslim women and girls committed by Christians - YouTube

Calling it an abortion pill is just a way of stopping religious fundamentalists thinking it through for themselves.

Adstar;1375164 wrote: It influences whom it influences. Why even make this point? Puzzled.



All Praise The Ancient Of DaysBecause "It influences whom it influences" is the public that you said weren't effected who further go on to protest after having been influenced. What follows are people advocating illegal abortion and all to do entirely with "I as a Christian give Warning" and "As far as my conscience to God is concerned i have done my duty by giving a warning".

I'm puzzled how you don't see the connection between "The message has nothing to do with the legal or illegal status of abortion" and ""As far as my conscience to God is concerned i have done my duty by giving a warning"" which from the dawn of humanity has been quite clear that law has been influenced by religion on grand scale...

What you're doing is suggesting you have the right to make decisions for other people which is dangerous and "irrespective" of a free society, which I happen to covet more than a law used as a tool to control society...

How is that puzzling?

K.Snyder;1375176 wrote:

How is that puzzling?


Oh Kevin.....sigh........

Bruv;1375185 wrote: Oh Kevin.....sigh........


Here

definition of advocate from Oxford Dictionaries Online

definition of preach from Oxford Dictionaries Online

What about this one Bro ?

Or this one ?

Leads to this.....

And look......I care, I am saying this because I have persevered, and what you say does make some sort of sense, it is just the sequence of words in juxtaposition don't always work well when scanned by the average Joe like myself.

Bruv;1375195 wrote: What about this one Bro ?

Or this one ?

Leads to this.....

And look......I care, I am saying this because I have persevered, and what you say does make some sort of sense, it is just the sequence of words in juxtaposition don't always work well when scanned by the average Joe like myself.


K.Snyder;1375176 wrote: Because "It influences whom it influences" is the public that you said weren't effected who further go on to protest after having been influenced.


K.Snyder;1375176 wrote: What follows are people advocating illegal abortion and all to do entirely with "I as a Christian give Warning" and "As far as my conscience to God is concerned i have done my duty by giving a warning".


K.Snyder;1375176 wrote: I'm puzzled how you don't see the connection between "The message has nothing to do with the legal or illegal status of abortion" and ""As far as my conscience to God is concerned i have done my duty by giving a warning"" which from the dawn of humanity has been quite clear that law has been influenced by religion on grand scale...


K.Snyder;1375176 wrote: What you're doing is suggesting you have the right to make decisions for other people which is dangerous and "irrespective" of a free society, which I happen to covet more than a law used as a tool to control society...


There I broke it down sentence by sentence so maybe you'll do better with it...

Perhaps you can show me exactly every instance in every sentence that you had trouble with so that we can achieve some sort of balance here. Or do you just respond to individual posts without reading which one's they're responding to?

I prefer this one...

Ahso!;1375170 wrote: Then why do a large number of christians support the death penalty and seem to find themselves involved in so many wars? Want to deny history, too?


I will deny any true Christian has taken part in any conflict. False christians yes true Christians never. Jesus made it clear we where to love our enemies and that was reinforced by the apostles. That’s why many Christians went to their deaths and did not resist in the coliseums of Rome.

Any christian who has taken part in combat has been in rebellion against Jesus. If you want scriptures i will provide them.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar;1375228 wrote: I will deny any true Christian has taken part in any conflict. False christians yes true Christians never. Jesus made it clear we where to love our enemies and that was reinforced by the apostles. That’s why many Christians went to their deaths and did not resist in the coliseums of Rome.

Any christian who has taken part in combat has been in rebellion against Jesus. If you want scriptures i will provide them.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days


The Crusades were a series of religious wars, blessed by the Pope and the Catholic Church with the main goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem.

Ahso!;1375168 wrote: There's fact and there's religious twisting of fact. Preventing the union of sperm and egg is exactly what the Plan B pill was designed for. Check with the designers if you like, that might be a better place to get your information instead of right-winged propaganda sites. (Not that you've provided any citations up to now. Would you like to at this juncture?)



First, it is pure speculation that Plan B prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the lining of the uterine wall. The way Plan B works is to prevent the egg from being released from the ovaries, if the drug, which is a small amount of synthetic human hormones is taken timely. Plan B has only an 89% success rate. Second, once again, there is no way of telling if an egg did in fact become fertile other than a female becoming pregnant.

"If taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, Plan B emergency contraception can reduce a woman's chances of pregnancy by as much as 89%.

It contains a high dose of birth control drugs and works by preventing ovulation or fertilization. It also may prevent a fertilized egg from implanting into the uterus, but recent research suggests that's not likely. In medical terms, pregnancy begins when a fertilized egg attaches itself to the wall of the uterus.

Plan B will not interfere with an established pregnancy. Religious conservatives say it's the equivalent of an abortion pill because it can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus." Source: FDA to OK over-the-counter Plan B for 17-year-olds - USATODAY.com



And



" Plan B

A drug could lower the risk of pregnancy in one of three ways:


It could kill all of the sperm after ejaculation.

It could prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus.

It could either prevent or delay the release of the egg. Levonorgestrel takes this third path.


When you purchase Plan B, you get two pills. Each pill contains 0.75 milligrams of levonorgestrel. You take the first pill as soon as possible after unprotected sex, and you take the second pill 12 hours later.

Although scientists aren't completely sure how it works, they believe that levonorgestrel prevents pregnancy either by stopping the ovulation process or by disrupting the ability of sperm and egg to meet in the fallopian tubes. Some speculate that the drug may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting as well, perhaps by making the uterine lining less receptive to the egg.

Levonorgestrel does this by disrupting the natural hormonal cycle. It contains a synthetic form of progesterone (regular birth-control pills contain it in lower doses). The high doses of progesterone in Plan B are disruptive enough to prevent fertilization or implantation.

If ovulation has already occurred, levonorgestrel will be less effective. It will be most effective if it's taken before ovulation. This is why it's important to take Plan B as soon as possible after unprotected sex. Once a fertilized egg implants, Plan B will have no effect. This explains why doctors advise women to take Plan B no later than 72 hours after unprotected sex -- the chances of it working are very low at that point.

Because of all these variables, Plan B is not 100 percent effective. But in clinical trials, it has been found to be 89 percent effective." Source:

Discovery Health "How does the morning-after pill work?"




Ok from "http://www.morningafterpill.org/how-does-it-work.html"

How Does it Work?

The emergency contraceptive/morning-after pill has three modes of action (as does the regular birth control pill); that is, it can work in one of three ways:

The normal menstrual cycle is altered, delaying ovulation; or

Ovulation is inhibited, meaning the egg will not be released from the ovary;

It can irritate the lining of the uterus (endometrium) so as to inhibit implantation.

Keep in mind that fertilization (the union of female ovum, or egg, and male sperm) occurs in the fallopian tube and that fertilization marks the beginning of a new human life - and the beginning of the pregnancy. The newly created child then travels down the fallopian tube to the uterus (womb) where he or she implants. Implantation is necessary for the new child to receive nourishment from the mother and continue developing. The journey from the fallopian tube to the womb takes between five and seven days during which pregnancy cannot be readily detected.

Therefore, if a woman ingests emergency contraception after fertilization has taken place, the third mode of action can occur. The lining of the uterus can be altered causing the woman's body to reject the living human embryo, making implantation impossible and the child will die. This result is called a chemical abortion; therefore emergency contraception is an abortifacient.


As for your God ending a life whenever he likes: murder is murder regardless of who is responsible, no?


Murder is not murder when it is an execution. The lawful ending of death is not murder.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Adstar;1375230 wrote:

The lawful ending of death is not murder.




On that we can ALL agree ?

gmc;1375175 wrote: posted by adstar: I am very clear in my mind. The lack of understanding comes from you. I made it clear that a contraceptive was something that prevented the union of the Egg and the sperm. And anything that stops a pregnancy after the egg and sperm have united is method of abortion. Clearly the morning AFTER pill is Not a contraceptive. It does not prevent the union of the egg and the sperm. It is a method of abortion because it comes into effect AFTER the egg and sperm have united. Thus it is a method of murdering the new human life.




You miss my point, on the one hand you state a woman should be able to choose when they become pregnant then you say not by using the day after pill, which, for example means any woman who has been raped would be deprived of any choice in the matter of whether she carries her baby to term by those who, like you, believe the morning after pill is abortion by another means.


I did not miss your point. Your point is that the morning after pill was a method of contraception. I have shown it is a method of abortion. This Rape issue was not part of your point, you just added it here.

The sin of rape does not justify the murder of the innocent. So your new point does not change a thing.





I suppose the logic is it was god's will she was raped and therefore she must accept her fate if she becomes pregnant.


It was the rapists’ will to rape her. And it's Gods will not to kill the innocent.



I suppose these guys were just doing god's work

Systematic rape of Bosnian Muslim women and girls committed by Christians - YouTube

Calling it an abortion pill is just a way of stopping religious fundamentalists thinking it through for themselves.


Nothing you have posted here is new to me, I have thought it through. Rape never justifies murder of the innocent.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

K.Snyder;1375176 wrote: Because "It influences whom it influences" is the public that you said weren't effected who further go on to protest after having been influenced. What follows are people advocating illegal abortion and all to do entirely with "I as a Christian give Warning" and "As far as my conscience to God is concerned i have done my duty by giving a warning".

I'm puzzled how you don't see the connection between "The message has nothing to do with the legal or illegal status of abortion" and ""As far as my conscience to God is concerned i have done my duty by giving a warning"" which from the dawn of humanity has been quite clear that law has been influenced by religion on grand scale...

What you're doing is suggesting you have the right to make decisions for other people which is dangerous and "irrespective" of a free society, which I happen to covet more than a law used as a tool to control society...

How is that puzzling?


You are the one puzzled here. I have stated quite clearly that i do not vote and i take no part in government. Why because i am a Christian and i belong to the kingdom of God and Not the kingdoms of this world. So there is no way i can have any influence on government, because i do not vote and therefore have no power/influence with government.

The governments are no interested in morals anyway. They never made laws with morals in mine but with power in mind. They banned abortion because they wanted more workers to serve the elites to make them more powerful and now they want to reduce the population of the world because they don't need the manpower anymore. So they adopt pro-abortion laws. Got nothing to do with what anti or pro abortion advocates want. It is what they want. They give the people the delusion of democracy and freedom all the while herding them like cattle.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Bruv;1375229 wrote: The Crusades were a series of religious wars, blessed by the Pope and the Catholic Church with the main goal of restoring Christian access to the holy places in and near Jerusalem.


You may as well tell me about a hundu vs buddhist war alone the ganges river. So what if the catholics launched a war to conquer Jerusalem. I am not a catholic, i am a Christian. The catholic religion created it's own dogma called "justifiable war". That's not a teaching of Jesus. It is a teaching of a man made religion, that is in rebellion against the teachings of the Messiah Jesus.

I do not recognise catholicism or any other denomination that believes in the dogma of "justifiable war" as being Christian.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I suggested checking with the designer of the drug and you come back with a religiously motivated political website. Not surprising. No matter how much you try to double talk your way through, falsehoods do not become truths by continuous insistence that they are.

Levonorgestrel (Plan B) a product "designed" and manufactured by Perrigo pharmaceuticals. Perrigo can be found > Perrigo Company Levonorgestrel by Perrigo... Because Everyone Deserves a Second Chance. Levonorgestrel – the active ingredient in Levonorgestrel tablets, 0.75mg – has been used in many daily use oral contraceptives for 35 years. It is designed to prevent unwanted pregnancy in the event that normal contraceptives fail, are not used, or are not available. This FDA approved drug has been proven to effectively prevent approximately 7 of 8 pregnancies that would occur in the absence of routine contraceptive use, and is effective up to 3 days (72 hours) after intercourse. Levonorgestrel tablets, 0.75mg are a generic product that is bioequivalent to the two tablet Plan B® product.

It is important to note that Levonorgestrel tablets, 0.75mg are a method of birth control – unlike RU-486, they cannot terminate an existing pregnancy, but may prevent one from occurring. By using the same chemical compounds found in normal oral contraceptives, but at an elevated dose, Levonorgestrel tablets, 0.75mg effectively interfere with the process where pregnancy occurs.

Levonorgestrel tablets, 0.75 mg:

are not an abortion pill (RU-486)

are not effective if you are already pregnant

do not offer protection from HIV (the AIDS virus) or other sexually transmitted diseases

Your statement that: "The morning after Pill stops a pregnancy when it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching itself to the wall of the uterus. That’s what it is designed to do. It is irrelevant wether a union has happened or not during the encounter. The morning after pill is not designed to prevent the union of the egg and the sperm and therefore is an abortion pill." is hereby refuted.

Adstar;1375228 wrote: I will deny any true Christian has taken part in any conflict. False christians yes true Christians never. Jesus made it clear we where to love our enemies and that was reinforced by the apostles. That’s why many Christians went to their deaths and did not resist in the coliseums of Rome.

Any christian who has taken part in combat has been in rebellion against Jesus. If you want scriptures i will provide them.



All Praise The Ancient Of DaysWell then perhaps you should be concentrating on the backsliders and false prophets first.

Adstar;1375230 wrote:

Murder is not murder when it is an execution. The lawful ending of death is not murder.

All Praise The Ancient Of DaysPerhaps you mean "the lawful ending of Life..."? Asking. And since abortion is "lawful" why are you calling it murder?

So you advocate for capital punishment too.

According to the NT story, Jesus was executed, and so were most of the followers of christanity. You yourself said the Roman empire went about executing them, or did you say these people were murdered?

Adstar;1375236 wrote: I am not a catholic, i am a Christian. The catholic religion created it's own dogma called "justifiable war". That's not a teaching of Jesus. It is a teaching of a man made religion, that is in rebellion against the teachings of the Messiah Jesus.

I do not recognise catholicism or any other denomination that believes in the dogma of "justifiable war" as being Christian.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days


And your religion is not man made ?

From where do you get your religious tenets ?

Unless they are directly and I mean directly from your god, then they are passed from man to man over generations, just like chinese whispers.

posted by adstar

I did not miss your point. Your point is that the morning after pill was a method of contraception. I have shown it is a method of abortion. This Rape issue was not part of your point, you just added it here.

The sin of rape does not justify the murder of the innocent. So your new point does not change a thing.




It was used to illustrate the point as to when a woman may choose not to become pregnant. The abortion pill description is a pejorative term used to prevent people actually thinking things through for themselves and justify banning the provision of contraception for spurious religious reasons. .

It was the rapists’ will to rape her. And it's Gods will not to kill the innocent.


So it wasn't god's will she was raped but it is god's will she becomes pregnant as a consequence? God, in his infinite wisdom has given the woman the means to decide whether she continues with a potential pregnancy or not but you have decided you have a better understanding of god's will therefore you have the right to dictate what choice she makes. Why do you believe women can't make that decision for themselves? Do you believe mary was raped or was she given a choice whether to carry the baby jesus or not?

posted by adstar

I will deny any true Christian has taken part in any conflict. False christians yes true Christians never. Jesus made it clear we where to love our enemies and that was reinforced by the apostles. That’s why many Christians went to their deaths and did not resist in the coliseums of Rome.

Any christian who has taken part in combat has been in rebellion against Jesus. If you want scriptures i will provide them.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days


Interesting point if view - so those soldiers in Afghanistan who go to church are not actually christian else they would not be there. Bet you keep that one to yourself in public in case some good christian soldier belts you one.

You may as well tell me about a hundu vs buddhist war alone the ganges river. So what if the catholics launched a war to conquer Jerusalem. I am not a catholic, i am a Christian. The catholic religion created it's own dogma called "justifiable war". That's not a teaching of Jesus. It is a teaching of a man made religion, that is in rebellion against the teachings of the Messiah Jesus.

I do not recognise catholicism or any other denomination that believes in the dogma of "justifiable war" as being Christian.


Leaving aside the crusades most of the religious wars in europe were Christian against Christian killing those who were not the right kind of Christian and had misinterpreted the teachings of the messiah, the wars against the Muslims were almost incidental. Really exciting issues like transubstantiation and consubstantiation and whether you should worship idols that exercise christian denominations today people used to kill over. Wouldn't take much for it all to start all over again.

You are actually coming out with exactly the same kind of arguments that have echoed through the ages "That's not a teaching of Jesus. It is a teaching of a man made religion, that is in rebellion against the teachings of the Messiah Jesus." You say you keep out of politics, congratulations if only all religious people did the world would be a better place.

Murder is not murder when it is an execution. The lawful ending of death is not murder.




Says who?

Ahso!;1375247 wrote: Well then perhaps you should be concentrating on the backsliders and false prophets first.


Oh indeed i have. Of course not many listen. Many people have that trait in common. Theist and atheist alike.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ahso!;1375248 wrote: Perhaps you mean "the lawful ending of Life..."? Asking. And since abortion is "lawful" why are you calling it murder?

So you advocate for capital punishment too.

According to the NT story, Jesus was executed, and so were most of the followers of christanity. You yourself said the Roman empire went about executing them, or did you say these people were murdered?


When i am talking about Lawful i am talking about God's Law. And i am not a supporter of capital punishment. I simply leave that decision to the governing authority. They will be judged for their actions. As will the Romans whom your gave as an example.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

gmc;1375394 wrote: So it wasn't god's will she was raped but it is god's will she becomes pregnant as a consequence? God, in his infinite wisdom has given the woman the means to decide whether she continues with a potential pregnancy or not but you have decided you have a better understanding of god's will therefore you have the right to dictate what choice she makes. Why do you believe women can't make that decision for themselves? Do you believe mary was raped or was she given a choice whether to carry the baby jesus or not?


Where have i dictated anything? Where is my power to dictate? I have to be in the authority and that authority has to be a dictatorship for me to have the power to dictate. I have made it clear i have no power. Therefore it is imposable for me to dictate anything to anyone. I put forward thoughts that others are free to accept or reject. No dictation here.

People need the guidance of God woman are no different to men on that account.

Mary had no choice in the matter. She was honoured to be the surrogate for Jesus. Remember God knew Mary better than Mary knew Mary He would have known how she would have reacted before she reacted to the news of the angel.



[QUOTE]posted by adstar

I will deny any true Christian has taken part in any conflict. False christians yes true Christians never. Jesus made it clear we where to love our enemies and that was reinforced by the apostles. That’s why many Christians went to their deaths and did not resist in the coliseums of Rome.

Any christian who has taken part in combat has been in rebellion against Jesus. If you want scriptures i will provide them.


Interesting point if view - so those soldiers in Afghanistan who go to church are not actually christian else they would not be there. Bet you keep that one to yourself in public in case some good christian soldier belts you one.


Being belted or not being belted is irrelevant. The truth is the truth. People are free to react to it as they wish. And any solider taking part in war is not a Christian. A Christian believes Jesus. They do not.



Leaving aside the crusades most of the religious wars in europe were Christian against Christian killing those who were not the right kind of Christian and had misinterpreted the teachings of the messiah, the wars against the Muslims were almost incidental. Really exciting issues like transubstantiation and consubstantiation and whether you should worship idols that exercise christian denominations today people used to kill over. Wouldn't take much for it all to start all over again.



You are actually coming out with exactly the same kind of arguments that have echoed through the ages "That's not a teaching of Jesus. It is a teaching of a man made religion, that is in rebellion against the teachings of the Messiah Jesus." You say you keep out of politics, congratulations if only all religious people did the world would be a better place.


I doubt it. atheists are quite capable of keeping this world as a hell hole without any input from the religious. Pol pot was a dedicated atheist you know.





[QUOTE]Adstar said: Murder is not murder when it is an execution. The lawful ending of death is not murder.
Says who?


Says me.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

"Thou shall not Kill, unless it's an execution"

Before I was married, I was for it.

After I had my son, I was against it.

Funny how your perspective changes after you're a father.

I kind of look at abortion as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.

In my opinion, if you're adult enough to have sex, you should be adult enough to take on the responsibility of understanding that you can get pregnant...and I'm not just talking about the woman. If you start something - finish it...or don't start it at all.

OK - a threat to your health - I can understand that.

Rape - ever so slightly less so. There are soooo many people that would love to adopt the child that you want to throw in the garbage. Think of it as an after death organ gift...but fortunately for you you're still alive and the organ that you donated doesn't detract from you at all.

And if you're pro-abortion; don't even talk to me if you're against capital punishment.

Blackslax;1375748 wrote:

And if you're pro-abortion; don't even talk to me if you're against capital punishment.


Are you pro abortion if you are not totally against it?



If so.......my lips are sealed

Blackslax;1375748 wrote: Before I was married, I was for it.

After I had my son, I was against it.

Funny how your perspective changes after you're a father.

I kind of look at abortion as a "Get Out of Jail Free" card.

In my opinion, if you're adult enough to have sex, you should be adult enough to take on the responsibility of understanding that you can get pregnant...and I'm not just talking about the woman. If you start something - finish it...or don't start it at all.

OK - a threat to your health - I can understand that.

Rape - ever so slightly less so. There are soooo many people that would love to adopt the child that you want to throw in the garbage. Think of it as an after death organ gift...but fortunately for you you're still alive and the organ that you donated doesn't detract from you at all.

And if you're pro-abortion; don't even talk to me if you're against capital punishment.Welcome, Blackslax!

There are already an awful lot of children available for adoption worldwide: why, if you're correct, do you imagine they remain available?

Also, using terms such as "pro-abortion" is inaccurate, it's about choice. To your statement of: "in my opinion, if you're adult enough to have sex, you should be adult enough to take on the responsibility of understanding that you can get pregnant...and I'm not just talking about the woman. If you start something - finish it...or don't start it at all." You yourself stated before that statement that you were for abortion up until your son was 'born', as opposed to 'conceived'. So how do you square that?

Blackslax;1375748 wrote: Rape - ever so slightly less so. There are soooo many people that would love to adopt the child that you want to throw in the garbage. Think of it as an after death organ gift...but fortunately for you you're still alive and the organ that you donated doesn't detract from you at all.


So in a way you'are pro-rape?! If you havn't been raped you don't know what it's like. Most people cannot bare to carry a "rape Child". And lik Ahso said: there are enough unwanted children in this world already.

Pro-rape?...that almost made me laugh.

That's violence - and I don't condone violence.

And you're right - I don't know it's like to be raped.

And I will never know what it's like to carry a child.

And maybe I need to clarify my position on this point.

A threat to your life - I understand 100% about getting an abortion on that account.

Getting pregnant from a rape - I can understand 99.9% about getting an abortion on that account.

So where is the 0.1% hesitation coming from?

Think about all of the reported and unreported rapes in the entire world. There certainly will be some victims who can't report the incident because of their age or the rapist is a close family member, or what have you. And then there is date rape and a whole bunch of other situations where it's just wrong. But there is that very small percentage of women out there that will, in order to save face - or some other self-centered reason - will say they were raped, but really weren't. Maybe they are still living under their father's roof. Maybe they are cheating on a boyfriend or spouse. Who knows? The fact of the matter is that it happens. Anyone who says it doesn't happen is just plain wrong. If you want to say "I understand that and I don't categorize that situation as a rape -eventhough - statistically speaking - there is a portion of rapes that are really untrue." Then I'll accept that and go on record as giving rape victims equal footing with health reasons for gettign an abortion.

I grew up.

And then I saw how helpless a child is in relation to the whims of the parent.

When I was growing up, things were very different.

Blackslax;1375888 wrote: I grew up.

And then I saw how helpless a child is in relation to the whims of the parent.

When I was growing up, things were very different.Again, it appears you're saying you couldn't understand the difference until after your son was born, yet you demand more of others. Sounds a bit irrational.

Blackslax;1375886 wrote: Pro-rape?...that almost made me laugh.

That's violence - and I don't condone violence.

And you're right - I don't know it's like to be raped.

And I will never know what it's like to carry a child.

And maybe I need to clarify my position on this point.

A threat to your life - I understand 100% about getting an abortion on that account.

Getting pregnant from a rape - I can understand 99.9% about getting an abortion on that account.

So where is the 0.1% hesitation coming from?

Think about all of the reported and unreported rapes in the entire world. There certainly will be some victims who can't report the incident because of their age or the rapist is a close family member, or what have you. And then there is date rape and a whole bunch of other situations where it's just wrong. But there is that very small percentage of women out there that will, in order to save face - or some other self-centered reason - will say they were raped, but really weren't. Maybe they are still living under their father's roof. Maybe they are cheating on a boyfriend or spouse. Who knows? The fact of the matter is that it happens. Anyone who says it doesn't happen is just plain wrong. If you want to say "I understand that and I don't categorize that situation as a rape -eventhough - statistically speaking - there is a portion of rapes that are really untrue." Then I'll accept that and go on record as giving rape victims equal footing with health reasons for gettign an abortion.


thanks for the explanation. cleared things up.

There are a portion of rapes that are really untrue I agree with that as well. But why does it still happen so often (that women lie about how they got pregnant, and why/how did they get pregnant in the first place anyway?!)? of course the odd accidents will always happen, but no one could say all abortions are due to "accidents". I think it's poor education i.e. ignorance or just stupidity.

In the last case they should deal with the consequences of being pregnant.