Are Black people English?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:42 pm

xara;1389636 wrote: Even if you feel English the fact of the matter is if your skin is not white there are people who are going to say you are not English. And if you hear it long enough you will start to question your identity.

Someone might think, "Well if this English guy doesn't think I'm English, maybe I'm not after all who else better to know what is English than an Englishman"

As your timeline Is posting from the USA.... then how do Blacks feel about what Is defined as 'American'...

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:44 pm

Would it be worth while asking each UK member whether they are English, British, Welsh or Scottish (or whatever) and why they define themselves as such?

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:46 pm

oscar;1389637 wrote: As your timeline Is posting from the USA.... then how do Blacks feel about what Is defined as 'American'...

1) I only put Black in the thread title because I thought it would be catchier than ethnic minorities. I wasn't singling them out.

2) I'm not American.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:49 pm

xara;1389640 wrote: 1) I only put Black in the thread title because I thought it would be catchier than ethnic minorities. I wasn't singling them out.

2) I'm not American. Your time line Is Alaska I believe ?

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:50 pm

oscar;1389641 wrote: Your time line Is Alaska I believe ?

Do you mean timezone? I'm sure I picked the right one when I joined. How do I change it?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:51 pm

xara;1389640 wrote: 1) I only put Black in the thread title because I thought it would be catchier than ethnic minorities. I wasn't singling them out.

2) I'm not American.Shouldn't us Americans be making that judgment?

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:52 pm

Sorry fixed it now.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:52 pm

xara;1389636 wrote: Even if you feel English the fact of the matter is if your skin is not white there are people who are going to say you are not English. And if you hear it long enough you will start to question your identity.

Someone might think, "Well if this English guy doesn't think I'm English, maybe I'm not after all who else better to know what is English than an Englishman"

And that is the crux of the problem.

Remember the dappy black bloke on Big Brother ?

More English than the Queen, and more queenly as it happens.

I made an imaginary scenario for people to judge attitudes......bear with me.

A sniper on a roof top takes aim at a queue at a bus stop, wanting to shoot foreigners.

He can see a white man carrying a bag, a black man in a suit, and a short darker skinned man.

Who does the sniper shoot ?

The black man, a third generation West Indian on leave from the British Army, the little darker skinned man, a Gurkha war hero returning from a reunion dinner of veterans, or the white Irish IRA man carrying a bomb in his bag ?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:53 pm

Ahso!;1389643 wrote: Shouldn't us Americans be making that judgment?

What do you define as American Ahso ?

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:54 pm

Ahso!;1389643 wrote: Shouldn't us Americans be making that judgment?

Am I?

I've always had a strange calling towards Idaho

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:54 pm

xara's opening post was about a TV program aired on British TV tonight.........doesn't take a lot of working out where she is.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:56 pm

oscar;1389646 wrote: What do you define as American Ahso ?I try not to, it's divisive. We're all human. To take that even further; we're all beings.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:57 pm

Bruv;1389648 wrote: xara's opening post was about a TV program aired on British TV tonight.........doesn't take a lot of working out where she is.

Nowhere did she say In her opening post that the TV program was aired on British TV tonight.... What she did say was :

"I'm watching a programme called 'How God made the English' and something that always crops up in these shows is what it means to be English. "

Given her timezone, It's perfectly rational to assume that British TV shows get seen In the States just as American TV shows are shown here.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:58 pm

Ahso!;1389649 wrote: I try not to, it's divisive. We're all human. To take that even further; we're all beings. Are you proud to be American?

rajakrsna · Post by **rajakrsna** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:59 pm

xara;1389563 wrote:

Or a national identity that a person even from an ethnic minority may be able to adopt?

Can an ethnic minority person call themselves English? Or is British more apt?

My brother-in-laws who are permanent residents of UK don`t like to call themselves British or English citizens but are more comfortable being called a Visayan who was born in the Visayas islands, Philippines. So if one is a Filipino ( a minority in UK ) and he possesses a British passport his previous nationality prevails. That is the only way you can identify say, an Englishman in New York. :wah:

theia · Post by **theia** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:02 pm

Okay, my father was English, my mother was Welsh and I was born in England. Although it isn't something I think about very often, if pushed, I usually say that I'm English.

If I'm completing an ethnicity form I tick the box that says White British

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:04 pm

Another of my theories, mankind NEED to belong to something.

We define ourselves by our cliques, clubs, associations etc. etc.

On every level we, meaning all of us, join up to different defining 'clubs' setting ourselves apart from others around us.

At school different classes, at work different dept. shifts, wage/skill levels.

Out of work different teams, towns, states, counties, streets, sides of town, family names, clans, colleges Universities........the list is endless

Race and or countries is just an extension of that requirement.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:08 pm

Bruv;1389654 wrote: Another of my theories, mankind NEED to belong to something.

We define ourselves by our cliques, clubs, associations etc. etc.

On every level we, meaning all of us, join up to different defining 'clubs' setting ourselves apart from others around us.

At school different classes, at work different dept. shifts, wage/skill levels.

Out of work different teams, towns, states, counties, streets, sides of town, family names, clans, colleges Universities........the list is endless

Race and or countries is just an extension of that requirement.
Very often a sense of belonging Is a sense of Identity. People can become misplaced without It.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:08 pm

oscar;1389651 wrote: Are you proud to be American?Proud? Pride is a condition of indoctrination used to instill arrogance in the young in order to convince them they should be willing to give their life for the values of the tribe. I was at one time a proud American until I looked behind the curtain.

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:10 pm

Bruv;1389645 wrote: And that is the crux of the problem.

Remember the dappy black bloke on Big Brother ?

More English than the Queen, and more queenly as it happens.

I made an imaginary scenario for people to judge attitudes......bear with me.

A sniper on a roof top takes aim at a queue at a bus stop, wanting to shoot foreigners.

He can see a white man carrying a bag, a black man in a suit, and a short darker skinned man.

Who does the sniper shoot ?

The black man, a third generation West Indian on leave from the British Army, the little darker skinned man, a Gurkha war hero returning from a reunion dinner of veterans, or the white Irish IRA man carrying a bomb in his bag ?

Let me put this to you.

Not long ago Britain ruled over India. In this time Indians volunteered to fight in the British army - Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus. After Britain left India, some Indians followed and now their children and grandchildren were born and bred here. And yet because they are only 1st/2nd generation British and/or not white they are not considered English by some who themselves have ancestors here for centuries.

The fact that these men fought and died alongside the English is irrelevant to them. Why? Because they were Indians in India and their descendants in England can be traced to their 'country of origin'.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:11 pm

oscar;1389650 wrote: Nowhere did she say In her opening post that the TV program was aired on British TV tonight...

I just happen to know it aired tonight BBC2 I think

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:14 pm

Bruv;1389658 wrote: I just happen to know it aired tonight BBC2 I think

I just happen to know It aired tonight BBC2.......... I think ????????????????????????

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

You do make me laugh

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:15 pm

xara;1389657 wrote: Let me put this to you.

Not long ago Britain ruled over India. In this time Indians volunteered to fight in the British army - Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus. After Britain left India, some Indians followed and now their children and grandchildren were born and bred here. And yet because they are only 1st/2nd generation British and/or not white they are not considered English by some who themselves have ancestors here for centuries.

The fact that these men fought and died alongside the English is irrelevant to them. Why? Because they were Indians in India and their descendants in England can be traced to their 'country of origin'.

I sort of just said that.

I don't know, but peculiarly the Indian/Asian corner shop keeper is very English, while remaining separate.....somehow.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:17 pm

oscar;1389659 wrote: I just happen to know It aired tonight BBC2.......... I think ????????????????????????

:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

You do make me laugh

At me or with me ?

I don't mind.......just have a good rib tickle......it will do you good.

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:17 pm

rajakrsna;1389652 wrote: My brother-in-laws who are permanent residents of UK don`t like to call themselves British or English citizens but are more comfortable being called a Visayan who was born in the Visayas islands, Philippines. So if one is a Filipino ( a minority in UK ) and he possesses a British passport his previous nationality prevails. That is the only way you can identify say, an Englishman in New York. :wah:

Yes but they were born in the Philippines. How long would their descendants have to be in England before they were considered English? and would their children be accepted as English if they didn't look Filipino but looked White?

If you look White no one will question your 'Englishness', even if in reality you are a Swede with only an English accent.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:21 pm

Bruv;1389661 wrote: At me or with me ?

I don't mind.......just have a good rib tickle......it will do you good. With you....

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:25 pm

Bruv;1389660 wrote: I sort of just said that.

I don't know, but peculiarly the Indian/Asian corner shop keeper is very English, while remaining separate.....somehow.

And I was agreeing with you.

My story was an anecdote about a lady I know whose father was in the British army in India. She herself wasn't born here and speaks broken English. Only her youngest was born here but all her grandchildren were. However if you ask the people on her council estate they would say 'no she's not English - she's a ****'

- and yes I have heard them say it.

rajakrsna · Post by **rajakrsna** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:27 pm

xara;1389662 wrote: Yes but they were born in the Philippines. How long would their descendants have to be in England before they were considered English? and would their children be accepted as English if they didn't look Filipino but looked White?

I doubt it.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:31 pm

Some ethnics will never be accepted by some of the English as English.

Some ethnics are more English than the English that don't accept them as English.

I know a West Indian lady, as English as English can be, who for whatever reason has now recently gone all ethnic on us.

Wearing Jamaican colours and clothing and sporting dreads.

I see it the same as an adopted child......needing to go back to their roots.

Not too sure they are accepted by their respective adoptive country/parents.

An inner unease, that self perpetuates.

While there are some like Oscars Turkish friends that simply refuse to join to protect themselves.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:34 pm

The term Pa*eee was once derogative, it is not necessarily so these days.............although I don't like it either, it is the way it is spoken that carries weight, good or bad.

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:39 pm

Bruv;1389667 wrote: Some ethnics will never be accepted by some of the English as English.

Some ethnics are more English than the English that don't accept them as English.

I know a West Indian lady, as English as English can be, who for whatever reason has now recently gone all ethnic on us.

Wearing Jamaican colours and clothing and sporting dreads.

I see it the same as an adopted child......needing to go back to their roots.

Not too sure they are accepted by their respective adoptive country/parents.

An inner unease, that self perpetuates.

While there are some like Oscars Turkish friends that simply refuse to join to protect themselves.

So to be English you must forego your culturalheritage and adopt the English one.

So.. if your have an Asian man who waves the English flag, eats Fish and Chips and watches the Football whilst supporting England.. he is English

BUT

if the same man were to wave the flag of the country of his origin, eat samosas, watches the IPL and supports his country of origin.. he is not English

In both cases the fact said person was born in England is irrelevant.

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:43 pm

Bruv;1389668 wrote: The term Pa*eee was once derogative, it is not necessarily so these days.............although I don't like it either, it is the way it is spoken that carries weight, good or bad.

That is wrong.

And usually said when people say want to justify their usage of it.

The word has been used to subjugate people and is still used against people to cause offense.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:43 pm

xara;1389670 wrote: So to be English you must forego your culturalheritage and adopt the English one.

So.. if your have an Asian man who waves the English flag, eats Fish and Chips and watches the Football whilst supporting England.. he is English

BUT

if the same man were to wave the flag of the country of his origin, eat samosas, watches the IPL and supports his country of origin.. he is not English

In both cases the fact said person was born in England is irrelevant.You know, much of it has to do with pride by neighbors. One example, a person living in the UK, and say, accepts their health care services and then waves the flag of another country could be taken as a personal insult. It's dumb but it happens, unfortunately. It's rampant here in the states.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:48 pm

It should be as simple as, if you were born in England then you are considered English, but it's never that simple is it.

For instance in a general conversation if the subject comes up how many people just claim to be English or British? They will always state where their parents were born and maybe also their Grandparents. It always seems important to state how deeply you could be English, which at the end of the day isn't really important.

Interestingly, I am fiercely Cornish, not British, not English, but Cornish. Both my parents were born in Cornwall, I used to think I wasn't quite fully Cornish as some grandparents were born in Newcastle, but it turns out their parentage was originally Cornish. Also turns out my Grandfather was born in South Africa to Cornish parents, does that make me African? I think not...

I can see the flaws, I don't think it's important to trace people back to see their true Englishness to prove something, yet I was pleased to find out I'm more Cornish that I had originally thought :-2

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:50 pm

Ahso!;1389672 wrote: You know, much of it has to do with pride by neighbors. One example, a person living in the UK, and say, accepts their health care services and then waves the flag of another country could be taken as a personal insult. It's dumb but it happens, unfortunately. It's rampant here in the states.

What if the person was on benefits in England but waving a Welsh flag?

I hardly think it would be as insulting as someone waving a non-Western flag.

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:58 pm

Betty Boop;1389675 wrote: It should be as simple as, if you were born in England then you are considered English, but it's never that simple is it.

For instance in a general conversation if the subject comes up how many people just claim to be English or British? They will always state where their parents were born and maybe also their Grandparents. It always seems important to state how deeply you could be English, which at the end of the day isn't really important.

Interestingly, I am fiercely Cornish, not British, not English, but Cornish. Both my parents were born in Cornwall, I used to think I wasn't quite fully Cornish as some grandparents were born in Newcastle, but it turns out their parentage was originally Cornish. Also turns out my Grandfather was born in South Africa to Cornish parents, does that make me African? I think not...

I can see the flaws, I don't think it's important to trace people back to see their true Englishness to prove something, yet I was pleased to find out I'm more Cornish that I had originally thought :-2

But what if you wanted to be South African or English or whatever. Some people want to be English but are told, you are not / will never be English - you are Arican. Then the person says fine I'm African - Then the person on the other side says Look that person is not behaving like an English person he's behaving like an African.

You can't win.

You're damned if you do - damned if you don't

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:12 pm

xara;1389677 wrote: But what if you wanted to be South African or English or whatever. Some people want to be English but are told, you are not / will never be English - you are Arican. Then the person says fine I'm African - Then the person on the other side says Look that person is not behaving like an English person he's behaving like an African.

You can't win.

You're damned if you do - damned if you don't

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. What some of this country doesn't have is tolerance. The majority of my friends are actually not Cornish but it doesn't occur to me to tell them they're not and insist they go home.

I'd like to find this definition of an English person's behaviour that other people could then follow to please the accusers :wah: My guess is the people accusing others of not being English are personally so muddled up with their own origins it's easier to deflect it onto someone else.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:17 pm

xara;1389676 wrote: What if the person was on benefits in England but waving a Welsh flag?

I hardly think it would be as insulting as someone waving a non-Western flag.Possibly not. We have to take the fact into account that people are sometimes silly and have been taught nonsense like patriotism and other divisive lessons.

Here in the US we've worked it to a point where it's okay to wave the flag of your ancestors as long as it's below the American flag. Stupid stuff anyway you look at it. It's a god damn piece of fabric with symbols printed on it.

Oh well, that's just how it is.

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:20 pm

Betty Boop;1389678 wrote:

I'd like to find this definition of an English person's behaviour that other people could then follow to please the accusers :wah:

After 8 pages. I have still not come across a definition.

xara · Post by **xara** » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:27 pm

Ahso!;1389679 wrote: Possibly not. We have to take the fact into account that people are sometimes silly and have been taught nonsense like patriotism and other divisive lessons.

Here in the US we've worked it to a point where it's okay to wave the flag of your ancestors as long as it's below the American flag. Stupid stuff anyway you look at it. It's a god damn piece of fabric with symbols printed on it.

Oh well, that's just how it is.

Never understood it myself.

I mean people have moved around from the beginning of time.

It's part of our nature to move around, if it's for the best place to live, raise your family, where there's the most food etc.

So I don't get why people get so crazy over a country.. a piece of land for which they'd be willing to debase another human being.

I'm all for being proud of your country and its achievement, but I choose people over a piece of land any day.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:50 am

xara;1389670 wrote: So to be English you must forego your culturalheritage and adopt the English one.

So.. if your have an Asian man who waves the English flag, eats Fish and Chips and watches the Football whilst supporting England.. he is English

BUT

if the same man were to wave the flag of the country of his origin, eat samosas, watches the IPL and supports his country of origin.. he is not English

In both cases the fact said person was born in England is irrelevant.

Most of the Asian corner shops are absorbed into Englishness.

They wave their own flag at cricket while paying taxes and being otherwise totally English in their day to day life. I find that a very English way to behave.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:57 am

xara;1389671 wrote: That is wrong.

And usually said when people say want to justify their usage of it.

The word has been used to subjugate people and is still used against people to cause offense.

No it is not, necessarily. I have never used the word and don't like the word.

Words evolve and change their meanings over time. It now is a shortened version of Pakistani, as I said before it depends how it is used.

xara · Post by **xara** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:09 am

Bruv;1389688 wrote: Most of the Asian corner shops are absorbed into Englishness.

They wave their own flag at cricket while paying taxes and being otherwise totally English in their day to day life. I find that a very English way to behave.

You still haven't said what the English behaviour he displays is. 'English in the day to day life'? How? What's he doing that is English in his day to day life?

xara · Post by **xara** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:09 am

Bruv;1389689 wrote: No it is not, necessarily. I have never used the word and don't like the word.

Words evolve and change their meanings over time. It now is a shortened version of Pakistani, as I said before it depends how it is used.

What did it previously stand for?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:44 am

xara;1389691 wrote: You still haven't said what the English behaviour he displays is. 'English in the day to day life'? How? What's he doing that is English in his day to day life?
They are a valued part of the local community, their children attend local schools, attend local clubs, become part of the community while retaining there differences.

xara;1389692 wrote: What did it previously stand for?

What did 'Gay' mean previously or 'Bad' or maybe 'Phat' said Fat ?

All words that have altered meanings.

The Pakee shop is now a term used for the corner shop, not nice, but not the pejorative it once was.

xara · Post by **xara** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:50 am

Bruv;1389695 wrote:

What did 'Gay' mean previously or 'Bad' or maybe 'Phat' said Fat ?

All words that have altered meanings.

The Pakee shop is now a term used for the corner shop, not nice, but not the pejorative it once was.

Not the pejorative it once was? I bet it wasn't an Asian person who told you that.

They are not racially offensive slurs.

'Phat' has always meant something good. 'Bad' and 'Sick' are not used to abuse a specific type of people and even on the list of 'bad words' they are not listed that high. Gay meant happy which was then applied to Homosexuals - A positive association, no? Now if you tried telling me that 'Fag' could be meant as something good too I would have to disagree.

A more apt comparison would be that of ******, Chink and Paki.

You should read this 'I was promoting racism by making the N-word cool' | Media | The Observer It's about a young Black rapper trying to reclaim '******'.

Just because you have been able to convince yourself that it is 'just a word', 'just an abbreviation for Pakistani'. Doesn't make it true. You can dress it up however you like, make it flowery and lovely. Doesn't change it - it is what it is.

The word has always been used as a slur and is still used as one towards people. I live in a very diverse city. I've seen it myself, more often than I'd like to count. And by using it you are perpetuating its use in all forms - good or bad.

I've seen this type of attitude in people before and it comes from ignorance. They are simply unaware of the power of some words and the weight they carry or are aware and ignore it because it's not something they've ever had to deal with. If a word has been repeatedly used to abuse someone would you expect them to turn around and say 'yes that's a lovely thing to say'.

I have a friend like you. Could not hurt a fly, she is the sweetest person you could meet. But she lives in a very White area, only 1 or 2 non-White pupils were in her year at school and not many more in the school. Where she's from they call their Chinese takeaway the 'Chinky'. Since coming to Uni here we've made a Chinese friend and this all came out in a conversation. Now because the word 'Chink(y)' has been used against my Chinese friend/her family/her community to her the word carries a lot of weight and is deeply offensive. The fact that my friend uses it in reference to a shop, not people, is irrelevant. It is hurtful and offensive. End of story. You have no idea how people have suffered with these words. To you they are just words, to others they are more than that.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:32 am

rajakrsna;1389617 wrote: Xara, Anne is a KGB agent.
Aw crap. Now I have to kill you.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:31 am

xara;1389635 wrote: What are 'English values?'

I know you said they are changing, but the core values.

For example, some may say Christianity is an English value. In which case it rules out all those from other faiths.

I think it is much less specific than that, you're no less English for being agnostic for example, and it is an area where our values have changed over the centuries.

Since the troubles in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries I think we've been coming to a realisation that strict insistence on a single state religion is destructive. Moving from the absolute persecution of the Lollards as heretics and then the persecution of the Catholics as traitors to the acceptance of the non-conformists, Huguenots and subsequently the Jews and the re-integration of the Catholics (over most of the country) led fairly painlessly to an acceptance of Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims within the society - it is only the recent daemonisation of Islam that has caused any Muslim to be treated as pariah. Don't get me wrong, racism has existed for a long time but racism existed despite the religion, not because of it.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:34 am

xara;1389636 wrote: Even if you feel English the fact of the matter is if your skin is not white there are people who are going to say you are not English. And if you hear it long enough you will start to question your identity.

Someone might think, "Well if this English guy doesn't think I'm English, maybe I'm not after all who else better to know what is English than an Englishman"

The fact that a minority will tell any non-white that the cannot be English is not the driver - the fact that such racists are widely condemned gives lie to what they say.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:43 am

xara;1389657 wrote: Let me put this to you.

Not long ago Britain ruled over India. In this time Indians volunteered to fight in the British army - Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus. After Britain left India, some Indians followed and now their children and grandchildren were born and bred here. And yet because they are only 1st/2nd generation British and/or not white they are not considered English by some who themselves have ancestors here for centuries.

The fact that these men fought and died alongside the English is irrelevant to them. Why? Because they were Indians in India and their descendants in England can be traced to their 'country of origin'.

OK, change it about a bit - can Sir Cliff Richards possibly be considered English?