AnneBoleyn;1421085 wrote: Well, you reap what you sow. Move to Jordan. You sure have cajones to compare that to the Holocaust of 2,000 years, the endless pogroms in every country, culminating with the Master Race. Hypocrites, the lot of you, on this issue.
Why in hell should people who have lived in Palestine for two thousand years move to Jordan because former occupants see fit to return. Share the land as the Balfour Declaration insisted and as the Israeli Constitution claims they will.
What a disgrace
What a disgrace
AnneBoleyn;1421089 wrote: Before my break----think simply then you will know. The Heart is a simple organ, not complicated.
I have no heart - show my brain why!
I have no heart - show my brain why!
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
I was in sugar shock when I said that.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
Here's what's funny to me: British people complaining about Muslims taking over. No, I'm really not changing the subject. First, you guys, especially in the Victorian era, take over most of the world, rape & pillage & steal resources wherever you go, cause things like the Opium Wars, lose your colonies & possessions because who can maintain that, make the mistake of giving everyone British passports, then complain when same are used to then invade YOU!
I'm not arguing this anymore tonight except to say----
I am not in favor of any torture to children or any living thing AND Jewish people are entitled to their homeland. My name is not AnneNetenyahu, I am not an apologist for the Israeli (or any other) government. There is no argument. White Europeans have caused the greatest mess in this world, are responsible for most of it's ills, so grow up & see the world YOU created without constantly blaming Jews for every ill you can think of. That's what you always do, & quite frankly, it's getting boring.
Now get off that high horse before your nose bleeds.
I'm not arguing this anymore tonight except to say----
I am not in favor of any torture to children or any living thing AND Jewish people are entitled to their homeland. My name is not AnneNetenyahu, I am not an apologist for the Israeli (or any other) government. There is no argument. White Europeans have caused the greatest mess in this world, are responsible for most of it's ills, so grow up & see the world YOU created without constantly blaming Jews for every ill you can think of. That's what you always do, & quite frankly, it's getting boring.
Now get off that high horse before your nose bleeds.
What a disgrace
AnneBoleyn;1421110 wrote: Here's what's funny to me: British people complaining about Muslims taking over. No, I'm really not changing the subject. First, you guys, especially in the Victorian era, take over most of the world, rape & pillage & steal resources wherever you go, cause things like the Opium Wars, lose your colonies & possessions because who can maintain that, make the mistake of giving everyone British passports, then complain when same are used to then invade YOU!
I'm not arguing this anymore tonight except to say----
I am not in favor of any torture to children or any living thing AND Jewish people are entitled to their homeland. My name is not AnneNetenyahu, I am not an apologist for the Israeli (or any other) government. There is no argument. White Europeans have caused the greatest mess in this world, are responsible for most of it's ills, so grow up & see the world YOU created without constantly blaming Jews for every ill you can think of. That's what you always do, & quite frankly, it's getting boring.
Now get off that high horse before your nose bleeds.
We are actually all quite well aware of our imperial past and don't pretend it never happened that's why we can prattle on knowledgeably about the Balfour declaration Palestinain mandates and all that guff because we are well aware of the part we played in all of this. Indeed quite a few of us will have had close relatives that fought in Palestine in ww2. Come to that so will quite a few Australians and Canadians.
There are hard line israelis that do not want to live in peace with the palestinians and yes it is true that none of the surrounding arab nations have shown any interest in supporting the palestinians except so far as it was in their interests. Nobody actually gave a **** about them until they started hijacking planes and blowing them up, for them terrosism achieved what they wanted - to bring their situation to the attention of the world.
Israel too started out as a terrorist state, their first leaders were former terrorists that became statesmen and women. Hamas went to the UN and got the Palestinian state recognised by the UN. They are now progressing beyond terrorism butb can't leave it behind - it's a bit difficult to preach let's all live together when so many Israelis want warfare. The thing is a lot of isaelis no longer support the hard-liners in their government but their voices get shouted down.
UN defies US to recognise sovereign state of Palestine - Telegraph
Introducing the resolution, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, said approval would "issue a birth certificate for the state of Palestine".
"Palestine has come to the United Nations because it believes in peace and because its people are in desperate need of peace," said Mr Abbas, who arrived in and departed the UN's grand hall to a standing ovation from delegates.
"The international community is now the last chance to save the two-state solution. We did not come here to complicate the peace process. The moment has arrived for the world to say clearly: enough Israeli aggression, settlements and occupation."
If they don't agree all that is left is war. You're picking on me because I'm jewish is really not much of an argument nowadays.
Leaving aside the religious arguments about who has a right to live there all it boils down to is two tribes need to come to a solution since they can no longer just move on to the next piece of land that is unoccupied or that can be taken by force. Unless they can forget the religious side of it imo there will never be peace. I have a god given right is an argument that in the 21st century should not justify anything.
I'm not arguing this anymore tonight except to say----
I am not in favor of any torture to children or any living thing AND Jewish people are entitled to their homeland. My name is not AnneNetenyahu, I am not an apologist for the Israeli (or any other) government. There is no argument. White Europeans have caused the greatest mess in this world, are responsible for most of it's ills, so grow up & see the world YOU created without constantly blaming Jews for every ill you can think of. That's what you always do, & quite frankly, it's getting boring.
Now get off that high horse before your nose bleeds.
We are actually all quite well aware of our imperial past and don't pretend it never happened that's why we can prattle on knowledgeably about the Balfour declaration Palestinain mandates and all that guff because we are well aware of the part we played in all of this. Indeed quite a few of us will have had close relatives that fought in Palestine in ww2. Come to that so will quite a few Australians and Canadians.
There are hard line israelis that do not want to live in peace with the palestinians and yes it is true that none of the surrounding arab nations have shown any interest in supporting the palestinians except so far as it was in their interests. Nobody actually gave a **** about them until they started hijacking planes and blowing them up, for them terrosism achieved what they wanted - to bring their situation to the attention of the world.
Israel too started out as a terrorist state, their first leaders were former terrorists that became statesmen and women. Hamas went to the UN and got the Palestinian state recognised by the UN. They are now progressing beyond terrorism butb can't leave it behind - it's a bit difficult to preach let's all live together when so many Israelis want warfare. The thing is a lot of isaelis no longer support the hard-liners in their government but their voices get shouted down.
UN defies US to recognise sovereign state of Palestine - Telegraph
Introducing the resolution, Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, said approval would "issue a birth certificate for the state of Palestine".
"Palestine has come to the United Nations because it believes in peace and because its people are in desperate need of peace," said Mr Abbas, who arrived in and departed the UN's grand hall to a standing ovation from delegates.
"The international community is now the last chance to save the two-state solution. We did not come here to complicate the peace process. The moment has arrived for the world to say clearly: enough Israeli aggression, settlements and occupation."
If they don't agree all that is left is war. You're picking on me because I'm jewish is really not much of an argument nowadays.
Leaving aside the religious arguments about who has a right to live there all it boils down to is two tribes need to come to a solution since they can no longer just move on to the next piece of land that is unoccupied or that can be taken by force. Unless they can forget the religious side of it imo there will never be peace. I have a god given right is an argument that in the 21st century should not justify anything.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
gmc, what a great reply. As usual, I agree with you. Very thoughtful assessment. Thanks.
What a disgrace
Bruv;1421064 wrote: They don't show all the Palestinian children pulled from the rubble of Israeli missile strikes on US TV ?
There's a difference, in my mind, between a missile strike on a building with children in it that is being used as a military headquarters and a suicide bomber walking into a children's toy store. Also, the Israelis tolerate pretty much daily rocket strikes for years before striking back.
But this is as pointless as the conflict itself, it doesn't matter whose side we're on, all that matters is that the people of that region, themselves, get tired of all the bloodshed and agree to live peaceably with each other. (But seeing as how the middle east has been in turmoil for millenia, I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.)
There's a difference, in my mind, between a missile strike on a building with children in it that is being used as a military headquarters and a suicide bomber walking into a children's toy store. Also, the Israelis tolerate pretty much daily rocket strikes for years before striking back.
But this is as pointless as the conflict itself, it doesn't matter whose side we're on, all that matters is that the people of that region, themselves, get tired of all the bloodshed and agree to live peaceably with each other. (But seeing as how the middle east has been in turmoil for millenia, I'm not holding my breath waiting for that.)
What a disgrace
gmc;1421129 wrote: Unless they can forget the religious side of it imo there will never be peace. .
Darn right.
Darn right.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31842
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
What a disgrace
Saint_;1421450 wrote: There's a difference, in my mind, between a missile strike on a building with children in it that is being used as a military headquarters and a suicide bomber walking into a children's toy store.
Rubbish...
Israeli Crimes against Humanity: Targeting Palestinian Children with “Pinpoint Accuracy†| Global Research
Rubbish...
Israeli Crimes against Humanity: Targeting Palestinian Children with “Pinpoint Accuracy†| Global Research
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
What a disgrace
Saint_;1421450 wrote: There's a difference, in my mind, between a missile strike on a building with children in it that is being used as a military headquarters and a suicide bomber walking into a children's toy store. Also, the Israelis tolerate pretty much daily rocket strikes for years before striking back.
The Israeli policy has always been an eye for an eye, their response is normally swift and harsh.
I doubt very much if any strike by Palestinians went unheeded, and suspect the amount of explosives involved doesn't compare by a measure of ten from the Israelis.
The thing I can never understand is how the Israelis can mete out the treatment they have been on the recieving of for centuries.
The Israeli policy has always been an eye for an eye, their response is normally swift and harsh.
I doubt very much if any strike by Palestinians went unheeded, and suspect the amount of explosives involved doesn't compare by a measure of ten from the Israelis.
The thing I can never understand is how the Israelis can mete out the treatment they have been on the recieving of for centuries.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
What a disgrace
No offense, oscar, but that site didn't seem very unbiased with articles like:
Latest News / Top Stories
Week in Review: The U.S. Criminal State and the New Cold War
Newtown Tragedy: PBS Defies Basic Journalistic Standards to Push the Sandy Hook Official Narrative
Argentina’s President Accuses her country’s Zionist Lobby of Plotting Against Buenos Aires
Chavez warns that Africa and South America Must Unite or face Western Interventions
Modern Colonialism: Foreign Investors Buy Up Vast Amounts of Developing World Farmland
Are the G20 and IMF in the process of creating a Global Currency and Federal Reserve?
Like Colombia, Chile is a US military proxy in South America
US Government Adviser: America is at Cyber War with China, Russia, Iran
The New Cold War: America prepares to make a digital attack on China
High Crimes – Corporate Rule, 9/11, and the Death of Chris Dorner
It honestly seems like a propaganda website disguised as a "research" site.
From what I found on global news sites, Israel targets only military targets, but in war sometimes civilians get killed:
"A spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior Ministry said 11 people, all of them civilians, were killed when an Israeli missile flattened the home of the Dalu family. Medics said four women and four children were among the dead.
Israel's chief military spokesman said Yihia Abayah, a senior commander of rocket operations in the Gaza Strip, had been the target."
Israeli air strike kills 11 civilians in Gaza: Hamas | Reuters
Latest News / Top Stories
Week in Review: The U.S. Criminal State and the New Cold War
Newtown Tragedy: PBS Defies Basic Journalistic Standards to Push the Sandy Hook Official Narrative
Argentina’s President Accuses her country’s Zionist Lobby of Plotting Against Buenos Aires
Chavez warns that Africa and South America Must Unite or face Western Interventions
Modern Colonialism: Foreign Investors Buy Up Vast Amounts of Developing World Farmland
Are the G20 and IMF in the process of creating a Global Currency and Federal Reserve?
Like Colombia, Chile is a US military proxy in South America
US Government Adviser: America is at Cyber War with China, Russia, Iran
The New Cold War: America prepares to make a digital attack on China
High Crimes – Corporate Rule, 9/11, and the Death of Chris Dorner
It honestly seems like a propaganda website disguised as a "research" site.
From what I found on global news sites, Israel targets only military targets, but in war sometimes civilians get killed:
"A spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior Ministry said 11 people, all of them civilians, were killed when an Israeli missile flattened the home of the Dalu family. Medics said four women and four children were among the dead.
Israel's chief military spokesman said Yihia Abayah, a senior commander of rocket operations in the Gaza Strip, had been the target."
Israeli air strike kills 11 civilians in Gaza: Hamas | Reuters
What a disgrace
Saint_;1421456 wrote: No offense, oscar, but that site didn't seem very unbiased with articles like:
Latest News / Top Stories
Week in Review: The U.S. Criminal State and the New Cold War
Newtown Tragedy: PBS Defies Basic Journalistic Standards to Push the Sandy Hook Official Narrative
Argentina’s President Accuses her country’s Zionist Lobby of Plotting Against Buenos Aires
Chavez warns that Africa and South America Must Unite or face Western Interventions
Modern Colonialism: Foreign Investors Buy Up Vast Amounts of Developing World Farmland
Are the G20 and IMF in the process of creating a Global Currency and Federal Reserve?
Like Colombia, Chile is a US military proxy in South America
US Government Adviser: America is at Cyber War with China, Russia, Iran
The New Cold War: America prepares to make a digital attack on China
High Crimes – Corporate Rule, 9/11, and the Death of Chris Dorner
It honestly seems like a propaganda website disguised as a "research" site.
From what I found on global news sites, Israel targets only military targets, but in war sometimes civilians get killed:
"A spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior Ministry said 11 people, all of them civilians, were killed when an Israeli missile flattened the home of the Dalu family. Medics said four women and four children were among the dead.
Israel's chief military spokesman said Yihia Abayah, a senior commander of rocket operations in the Gaza Strip, had been the target."
Israeli air strike kills 11 civilians in Gaza: Hamas | Reuters
I would suggest that we see far more of what happens in Gaza and to the Palestinians in Israel than is available in the US and, I assure you, Israel no more restrict themselves to military targets than Hamas does.
They have a history of flattening whole areas from which a rocket has been fired and pitting tanks against rock throwing children.
Latest News / Top Stories
Week in Review: The U.S. Criminal State and the New Cold War
Newtown Tragedy: PBS Defies Basic Journalistic Standards to Push the Sandy Hook Official Narrative
Argentina’s President Accuses her country’s Zionist Lobby of Plotting Against Buenos Aires
Chavez warns that Africa and South America Must Unite or face Western Interventions
Modern Colonialism: Foreign Investors Buy Up Vast Amounts of Developing World Farmland
Are the G20 and IMF in the process of creating a Global Currency and Federal Reserve?
Like Colombia, Chile is a US military proxy in South America
US Government Adviser: America is at Cyber War with China, Russia, Iran
The New Cold War: America prepares to make a digital attack on China
High Crimes – Corporate Rule, 9/11, and the Death of Chris Dorner
It honestly seems like a propaganda website disguised as a "research" site.
From what I found on global news sites, Israel targets only military targets, but in war sometimes civilians get killed:
"A spokesman for the Hamas-run Interior Ministry said 11 people, all of them civilians, were killed when an Israeli missile flattened the home of the Dalu family. Medics said four women and four children were among the dead.
Israel's chief military spokesman said Yihia Abayah, a senior commander of rocket operations in the Gaza Strip, had been the target."
Israeli air strike kills 11 civilians in Gaza: Hamas | Reuters
I would suggest that we see far more of what happens in Gaza and to the Palestinians in Israel than is available in the US and, I assure you, Israel no more restrict themselves to military targets than Hamas does.
They have a history of flattening whole areas from which a rocket has been fired and pitting tanks against rock throwing children.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
Bryn Mawr;1421473 wrote: I would suggest that we see far more of what happens in Gaza and to the Palestinians in Israel than is available in the US and, I assure you, Israel no more restrict themselves to military targets than Hamas does.
They have a history of flattening whole areas from which a rocket has been fired and pitting tanks against rock throwing children.
I do watch BBC News to get a better account of what occurs in other nations. I also have taken to watching some Israeli news on a new cable station called Shalom. I could get more news on a pay service, but I won't pay. I wouldn't object to Al Jazeera being open here, so far it is not.
A rock is a weapon & can kill someone too. I wouldn't tolerate anyone throwing rocks at me. If I had a gun, I would shoot someone throwing rocks at me. I wouldn't overkill, but I would put a stop to it. I understand why the children are angry & why they throw rocks, as it is all that is available to them. If more were available to them, I'm sure they would use it.
They have a history of flattening whole areas from which a rocket has been fired and pitting tanks against rock throwing children.
I do watch BBC News to get a better account of what occurs in other nations. I also have taken to watching some Israeli news on a new cable station called Shalom. I could get more news on a pay service, but I won't pay. I wouldn't object to Al Jazeera being open here, so far it is not.
A rock is a weapon & can kill someone too. I wouldn't tolerate anyone throwing rocks at me. If I had a gun, I would shoot someone throwing rocks at me. I wouldn't overkill, but I would put a stop to it. I understand why the children are angry & why they throw rocks, as it is all that is available to them. If more were available to them, I'm sure they would use it.
What a disgrace
AnneBoleyn;1421528 wrote: I do watch BBC News to get a better account of what occurs in other nations. I also have taken to watching some Israeli news on a new cable station called Shalom. I could get more news on a pay service, but I won't pay. I wouldn't object to Al Jazeera being open here, so far it is not.
A rock is a weapon & can kill someone too. I wouldn't tolerate anyone throwing rocks at me. If I had a gun, I would shoot someone throwing rocks at me. I wouldn't overkill, but I would put a stop to it. I understand why the children are angry & why they throw rocks, as it is all that is available to them. If more were available to them, I'm sure they would use it.
Can you watch it on line?
Al Jazeera English - Live US, Europe, Middle East, Asia, Sports, Weather & Business News
How about
http://rt.com/on-air/
or
International news | euronews, latest international news
That's where I watch them, I watch fox news as well sometimes. Why would you not be able to watch them on line?
A rock is a weapon & can kill someone too. I wouldn't tolerate anyone throwing rocks at me. If I had a gun, I would shoot someone throwing rocks at me. I wouldn't overkill, but I would put a stop to it. I understand why the children are angry & why they throw rocks, as it is all that is available to them. If more were available to them, I'm sure they would use it.
Can you watch it on line?
Al Jazeera English - Live US, Europe, Middle East, Asia, Sports, Weather & Business News
How about
http://rt.com/on-air/
or
International news | euronews, latest international news
That's where I watch them, I watch fox news as well sometimes. Why would you not be able to watch them on line?
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
I do get rt. & euro. They are shown on Public Broadcasting & one of the BBC channels plays euro stuff sometimes. Thanks for the links. I don't spend all my time watching news anymore, it's a habit I broke, but I will check Al Jazeera out.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
Bruv;1421454 wrote: The Israeli policy has always been an eye for an eye, their response is normally swift and harsh.
I doubt very much if any strike by Palestinians went unheeded, and suspect the amount of explosives involved doesn't compare by a measure of ten from the Israelis.
The thing I can never understand is how the Israelis can mete out the treatment they have been on the recieving of for centuries.
Israel has not existed for centuries. You must mean Jews. That is what you mean.
"When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- make no mistake about it."
Martin Luther King
Lipset, Seymour Martin (1969). "The Socialism of Fools": The Left, the Jews, and Israel. New York, NY: Anti-Defamation League. p. 7.
Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
eta---In all fairness, the exact quote of Dr. King is in dispute. I could have let it rest, but good conscience would not allow me to do so. This morning saw me delving into much documentation as to whether, or where it was said in the exact manner I quoted.
I doubt very much if any strike by Palestinians went unheeded, and suspect the amount of explosives involved doesn't compare by a measure of ten from the Israelis.
The thing I can never understand is how the Israelis can mete out the treatment they have been on the recieving of for centuries.
Israel has not existed for centuries. You must mean Jews. That is what you mean.
"When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- make no mistake about it."
Martin Luther King
Lipset, Seymour Martin (1969). "The Socialism of Fools": The Left, the Jews, and Israel. New York, NY: Anti-Defamation League. p. 7.
Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
eta---In all fairness, the exact quote of Dr. King is in dispute. I could have let it rest, but good conscience would not allow me to do so. This morning saw me delving into much documentation as to whether, or where it was said in the exact manner I quoted.
What a disgrace
Well, I just spent a half hour reading the entire history of Israel from prehistory to modern day...that's a good try at being educated. I know you are Anti-Israel and Pro-Palestinian, but since I've never heard of an Israeli suicide bombing a children's toy store and I have heard of a Palestinian doing that...
If there is one thing about written modern day history that can be said its the fact that it is inaccurate at best. No history text is going to hit the real deep facts that bring about circumstances which create the dynamics of peoples behavior. If you wanted to write a text that accurately covers all things concerned there's just too many pages.
You have to address the actions and results of those actions. I ran across a document some time back from 1919-1920 from the Moscow City Council addressing the problems the citizens were having finding fuel to keep warm. They had to pass a law that said the scavenging of wood from various sources was to be prohibited and equivalent to looting.
Why did they make that law? To make the people suffer more and be as miserable as possible? Create more death and disease? Some "historians" will swear on a stack of bibles those were the only reasons.
What were the real reasons though? Consider this.
Moscows main resource for heat was coal. Coal mined in the Urals and the Don region south of Moscow was sent to the cities (not just Moscow) and utilized in homes and by heavy industry of all kinds. It took millions of tons of coal to keep things working and to keep people warm every year. All of this had to be dug out of the ground processed and transported to where it was needed.
Due to the fact that a LARGE part of the coal mines were in the Don and Kuban region and those regions were subject to the scorched earth policy of the Whites in their little scuffle with the Reds throughout the region coal mines, processing centers, barges on the Volga and rail transport was at best in a sad state it was near impossible to move what was needed to where it was needed.
The lack of fuel created problems, how would industry run? How would people keep warm? Well the solution to the citizens of Moscow was to walk across the street and get wood from the abandoned house or neighbors fence. They did it daily and there were hundreds of thousands of people doing it. How long do you think it would take before all those houses and fences went up in smoke? The MCC passed the law because their city was literally being torn to pieces by people trying to heat their homes, usually with other peoples homes.
They couldn't increase the coal ration to the people, you needed to rebuild the infrastructure which required steel, steel required coal fired blast furnaces. Other industries took huge amounts of what they could get. Bakeries needed it too.
See where I'm going? It turns out the people suffered a terrible winter but what choice did anyone have?
That bomber you mentioned did what he did for a reason, we'll never know what it was on his level but I know why things are the way they are in Israel and Palestine. I've been there. The Israelis (not all) bring such things onto themselves, for reasons deep down that you will find in no history book.
You might want want to look into just why the Inca citizens that aided the Spanish Conquistadors in taking down the Inca king never got any acknowledgement for doing it.
It's because the Spanish wrote the history.
If there is one thing about written modern day history that can be said its the fact that it is inaccurate at best. No history text is going to hit the real deep facts that bring about circumstances which create the dynamics of peoples behavior. If you wanted to write a text that accurately covers all things concerned there's just too many pages.
You have to address the actions and results of those actions. I ran across a document some time back from 1919-1920 from the Moscow City Council addressing the problems the citizens were having finding fuel to keep warm. They had to pass a law that said the scavenging of wood from various sources was to be prohibited and equivalent to looting.
Why did they make that law? To make the people suffer more and be as miserable as possible? Create more death and disease? Some "historians" will swear on a stack of bibles those were the only reasons.
What were the real reasons though? Consider this.
Moscows main resource for heat was coal. Coal mined in the Urals and the Don region south of Moscow was sent to the cities (not just Moscow) and utilized in homes and by heavy industry of all kinds. It took millions of tons of coal to keep things working and to keep people warm every year. All of this had to be dug out of the ground processed and transported to where it was needed.
Due to the fact that a LARGE part of the coal mines were in the Don and Kuban region and those regions were subject to the scorched earth policy of the Whites in their little scuffle with the Reds throughout the region coal mines, processing centers, barges on the Volga and rail transport was at best in a sad state it was near impossible to move what was needed to where it was needed.
The lack of fuel created problems, how would industry run? How would people keep warm? Well the solution to the citizens of Moscow was to walk across the street and get wood from the abandoned house or neighbors fence. They did it daily and there were hundreds of thousands of people doing it. How long do you think it would take before all those houses and fences went up in smoke? The MCC passed the law because their city was literally being torn to pieces by people trying to heat their homes, usually with other peoples homes.
They couldn't increase the coal ration to the people, you needed to rebuild the infrastructure which required steel, steel required coal fired blast furnaces. Other industries took huge amounts of what they could get. Bakeries needed it too.
See where I'm going? It turns out the people suffered a terrible winter but what choice did anyone have?
That bomber you mentioned did what he did for a reason, we'll never know what it was on his level but I know why things are the way they are in Israel and Palestine. I've been there. The Israelis (not all) bring such things onto themselves, for reasons deep down that you will find in no history book.
You might want want to look into just why the Inca citizens that aided the Spanish Conquistadors in taking down the Inca king never got any acknowledgement for doing it.
It's because the Spanish wrote the history.
What a disgrace
AnneBoleyn;1421541 wrote: Israel has not existed for centuries. You must mean Jews. That is what you mean.
"When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- make no mistake about it."
Martin Luther King
Lipset, Seymour Martin (1969). "The Socialism of Fools": The Left, the Jews, and Israel. New York, NY: Anti-Defamation League. p. 7.
Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
eta---In all fairness, the exact quote of Dr. King is in dispute. I could have let it rest, but good conscience would not allow me to do so. This morning saw me delving into much documentation as to whether, or where it was said in the exact manner I quoted.
As you say, the quote as given was false :-
However, because we do not ordinarily rely on anyone else's research, we decided to double-check, by searching back issues of Saturday Review (Rabbi Shneier's book had referenced the “letter†as being published in the August 1967 Saturday Review). We found no such letter in any of the August issues, nor do the page and volume numbers cited conform to those actually used by that publication. CAMERA also checked with Boston University, where Dr. King's work is archived. The archivists, too, were unable to locate any such letter. We can only conclude that no such letter was written by Dr. King. (Please note we are not implying that the apparently bogus “letter†originated with Rabbi Schneier.)
but apparently based of MLK's opinion :-
However, the basic message of the letter was indeed, without question, spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. at a dinner in Cambridge, MA, shortly before he was assassinated. At that dinner, he rebuked a student who made an anti-Zionist remark, saying, “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.â€
CAMERA: CAMERA ALERT: Letter by Martin Luther King a Hoax
What I will say, however, is that criticism of the Israeli state is not, and cannot be constituted as, anti-Semitism. The state is not the people and its actions are not those of the Jews as a whole.
To the extent that they go against their own constitution, go way beyond "reasonable force" with their responses and act illegally in building the separation wall and allowing settlement of the west bank, thus depriving innocent people of their water and their land, I do criticise the Israeli government for their actions.
"When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews -- make no mistake about it."
Martin Luther King
Lipset, Seymour Martin (1969). "The Socialism of Fools": The Left, the Jews, and Israel. New York, NY: Anti-Defamation League. p. 7.
Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
eta---In all fairness, the exact quote of Dr. King is in dispute. I could have let it rest, but good conscience would not allow me to do so. This morning saw me delving into much documentation as to whether, or where it was said in the exact manner I quoted.
As you say, the quote as given was false :-
However, because we do not ordinarily rely on anyone else's research, we decided to double-check, by searching back issues of Saturday Review (Rabbi Shneier's book had referenced the “letter†as being published in the August 1967 Saturday Review). We found no such letter in any of the August issues, nor do the page and volume numbers cited conform to those actually used by that publication. CAMERA also checked with Boston University, where Dr. King's work is archived. The archivists, too, were unable to locate any such letter. We can only conclude that no such letter was written by Dr. King. (Please note we are not implying that the apparently bogus “letter†originated with Rabbi Schneier.)
but apparently based of MLK's opinion :-
However, the basic message of the letter was indeed, without question, spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. at a dinner in Cambridge, MA, shortly before he was assassinated. At that dinner, he rebuked a student who made an anti-Zionist remark, saying, “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.â€
CAMERA: CAMERA ALERT: Letter by Martin Luther King a Hoax
What I will say, however, is that criticism of the Israeli state is not, and cannot be constituted as, anti-Semitism. The state is not the people and its actions are not those of the Jews as a whole.
To the extent that they go against their own constitution, go way beyond "reasonable force" with their responses and act illegally in building the separation wall and allowing settlement of the west bank, thus depriving innocent people of their water and their land, I do criticise the Israeli government for their actions.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
However, the basic message of the letter was indeed, without question, spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. at a dinner in Cambridge, MA, shortly before he was assassinated. At that dinner, he rebuked a student who made an anti-Zionist remark, saying, “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.â€
That's pretty much what I originally meant to say. I had remembered the quote from years ago & posted it. When I went back to look at it I discovered there was conflict & so wanted to make sure this was known. The point is though, he felt it. It cost him. I'm going from memory although I may have some documentation in my possession that the statement cost him big amongst the Black Panthers, SNCC, etc. I feel I presented it honestly by making mention of the contradictions surrounding the "letter".
I agree with you, criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism in itself. I was responding to Bruv by trying to show that Israel & Jews get mixed up often in people's minds. His statement is obvious that it happens, and happens a lot.
Here is another source regarding the letter that I found to be well thought out:
The Use and Abuse of Martin Luther King Jr. by Israel’s Apologists
While this refutes the letter it also states:
"Martin Luther King addressed the issue in 1968, in a speech at Harvard when he said: ".. You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' ...When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews... And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe...When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it." ".............................
"Congressman Lewis claims Dr. King made this comment "shortly before his death" during "an appearance at Harvard." Lipset states it was "shortly before he was assassinated" at a "dinnergiven for him in Cambridge." This quotation seems on its face much more credible. Yet, SPME presents snippets from the fake letter while apparently citing this statement (a 1968 "speech" at Harvard)."
Interesting read, at least for me. Truth is my favorite thing. As someone recently said (John McCain, of all people): "You can have your own opinion, but not your own Facts."
Funny coming from him, but there you go. Hopefully, I can find those references to MLK v. Black 'Militants' which occured shortly before his assassination. It also involved attacks upon MLK's dedication to non-violence. There may have been a Great Split amongst these parties, but then Dr. King was killed.
That's pretty much what I originally meant to say. I had remembered the quote from years ago & posted it. When I went back to look at it I discovered there was conflict & so wanted to make sure this was known. The point is though, he felt it. It cost him. I'm going from memory although I may have some documentation in my possession that the statement cost him big amongst the Black Panthers, SNCC, etc. I feel I presented it honestly by making mention of the contradictions surrounding the "letter".
I agree with you, criticism of Israel is not anti-semitism in itself. I was responding to Bruv by trying to show that Israel & Jews get mixed up often in people's minds. His statement is obvious that it happens, and happens a lot.
Here is another source regarding the letter that I found to be well thought out:
The Use and Abuse of Martin Luther King Jr. by Israel’s Apologists
While this refutes the letter it also states:
"Martin Luther King addressed the issue in 1968, in a speech at Harvard when he said: ".. You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' ...When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews... And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe...When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it." ".............................
"Congressman Lewis claims Dr. King made this comment "shortly before his death" during "an appearance at Harvard." Lipset states it was "shortly before he was assassinated" at a "dinnergiven for him in Cambridge." This quotation seems on its face much more credible. Yet, SPME presents snippets from the fake letter while apparently citing this statement (a 1968 "speech" at Harvard)."
Interesting read, at least for me. Truth is my favorite thing. As someone recently said (John McCain, of all people): "You can have your own opinion, but not your own Facts."
Funny coming from him, but there you go. Hopefully, I can find those references to MLK v. Black 'Militants' which occured shortly before his assassination. It also involved attacks upon MLK's dedication to non-violence. There may have been a Great Split amongst these parties, but then Dr. King was killed.
What a disgrace
AnneBoleyn;1421541 wrote: Israel has not existed for centuries. You must mean Jews. That is what you mean.
That is exactly what I meant.
The Israeli's are the people and descendants of those that were discriminated against for centuries, they were called Jews then.
That is exactly what I meant.
The Israeli's are the people and descendants of those that were discriminated against for centuries, they were called Jews then.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
That's BS, Bruv. Read my reply to Bryn. You're squirming. Most of the world's Jews live outside Israel.
eta: you are also forgetting the Sabra population. Just admit you made an error & move on.
eta: you are also forgetting the Sabra population. Just admit you made an error & move on.
What a disgrace
AnneBoleyn;1421572 wrote: That's BS, Bruv. Read my reply to Bryn. You're squirming. Most of the world's Jews live outside Israel.
eta: you are also forgetting the Sabra population. Just admit you made an error & move on.
Sorry if you think I am BSing.
I am not squirming, I am not heavily into the semantics of it all.
Israel was formed due to centuries of persecution of Jews following the 2nd world war.
Israel is a country formed for and at the insistence of persecuted Jews.
So my amazement that the Israeli government uses the policies they do against a minority still stands.
eta: you are also forgetting the Sabra population. Just admit you made an error & move on.
Sorry if you think I am BSing.
I am not squirming, I am not heavily into the semantics of it all.
Israel was formed due to centuries of persecution of Jews following the 2nd world war.
Israel is a country formed for and at the insistence of persecuted Jews.
So my amazement that the Israeli government uses the policies they do against a minority still stands.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6632
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
What a disgrace
Swell.
Nothing that Governments(or people) do surprise me. I've ceased to be amazed.
Nothing that Governments(or people) do surprise me. I've ceased to be amazed.