Question for christians/jews/muslims

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:14 pm

Ahso!;1428787 wrote: No you didn't. When we dream we believe we see ourselves also. Are we dead when we sleep?

Oh, this was not sleeping. Far from it. It was death, for real. I told you that story didn't I?

you're not capable of understanding everything, the fact that you're a sentient being notwithstanding.

Isn't that an argument FOR believing in God?

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:18 pm

gmc;1428791 wrote: A god may have forsaken you

I never think that way, nor do any good Christians. God never forsakes anyone. They can, however, forsake themselves...

god has some master plan that you can't understand and misery and suffering has a purpose

Isn't that better than thinking misery and suffering is meaningless and random? It's certainly more comforting and, for me, that's enough.

look at another human being and feel sorry for them because they are damned and you

I never think that way either.

I can't imagine hating or despising anyone because of their lifestyle and religion and feeling justified in denying them the same liberty and tolerance and respect I demand for my beliefs and lifestyle.

Which religion are you talking about? Christianity tells us to treat all others as we would be treated and love everyone.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:22 pm

Ahso!;1428787 wrote:

Optimum evolutionary trait? WTF is that? No such thingie, Saint

You do understand evolution, right? Then you must understand that intelligence is better than fangs, speed, size, or any other trait. Once yo have intelligence, you can adapt your environment to yourself in stead of the other way around. Hence the reason humans control the planet.

Or were you thinking that evolution isn't real?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:44 pm

You're putting value on natural selection, and while you think that's an intelligent thing to do, it isn't. I understand that with the belief that evolution is through intelligent design your interpretation has to have reason for events, but that's actually backwards thinking when it come to natural selection. We don't choose the environment (as a creation), the environment chooses (selects for) us. Our culture has us thinking backwards and that's one of the greatest obstacles religion has laid before us. But to amuse you (and the discussion), all this intelligence is moot without a nose to breathe through.

Also, I'm interested to know something. Why do you make the leap that there's a God because you believe you had had an out of body experience? I don't recall you claiming you met God while you were unconscious. Did you say you did?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:25 pm

Like a lot of people, I believe in G-d.

To me the important thing about G-d is he plays no favorites.

How many times we hear of some who escape death only to believe they are on some special Mission for

G-d?

Can't one of them bring "PEACE ON EARTH?"

I know that G-d's wisdom is infinite and all that, way beyond the comprehension of mortal man.

At the same time he gave us an unfair world, and an ability to reason.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:30 pm

Saint_;1429004 wrote: You do understand evolution, right? Then you must understand that intelligence is better than fangs, speed, size, or any other trait. Once yo have intelligence, you can adapt your environment to yourself in stead of the other way around. Hence the reason humans control the planet.

Or were you thinking that evolution isn't real?I thought this might interest you, Saint. We can restate the question more precisely: "How do we resolve this with the fact that the Neanderthal individual was probably more intelligent than a modern human individual?" The cranial capacity tells us something about the individuals' mental abilities, but it tells us almost nothing about the social aspects of life.

Studying the inventiveness of Homo Sapiens scientists have found that literally all the major innovations that have changed the way we live, from the use of fire, to agriculture, to writing etc., have developed only in a few places. For example agriculture appeared independently only in around seven places on the entire planet. All the rest of human populations that engaged in farming did it because they had learned it from somebody. Therefore, the most important aspect of inventiveness is not the ability to invent, but the ability to transmit and to preserve innovations.

This gives us an important clue to why Neanderthals failed in the competition with Homo Sapiens. One of the most important means by which innovations are preserved and transmitted is language. Neanderthals had language themselves. This was proven in 1983 when a Neanderthal hyoid bone was found at the Kebara Cave in Israel. The hyoid is a small bone that holds the root of the tongue in place, a requirement to human speech and, therefore, its presence seems to imply some ability to speak. Recent studies found that due to the physical characteristics of Neanderthals' hyoid and the fact that their larynx was stouter than that of modern man, the average note emitted by Neanderthals were high pitched and sharper than that of modern man. This contradicts the stereotype of Neanderthals having ape-like grunts. However, the base of the Neanderthal tongue was positioned higher in the throat, crowding the mouth somewhat. As a result, Neanderthal speech would most likely have been slow-paced and nasalized.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Neandert ... 5264.shtml

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:48 pm

tude dog;1429015 wrote: Like a lot of people, I believe in G-d.

To me the important thing about G-d is he plays no favorites.

How many times we hear of some who escape death only to believe they are on some special Mission for

G-d?

Can't one of them bring "PEACE ON EARTH?"

I know that G-d's wisdom is infinite and all that, way beyond the comprehension of mortal man.

At the same time he gave us an unfair world, and an ability to reason.

I'm officially freaked out. You really know how to unload.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:32 am

tude dog;1429015 wrote: Like a lot of people, I believe in G-d.

To me the important thing about G-d is he plays no favorites.

How many times we hear of some who escape death only to believe they are on some special Mission for

G-d?

Can't one of them bring "PEACE ON EARTH?"

I know that G-d's wisdom is infinite and all that, way beyond the comprehension of mortal man.

At the same time he gave us an unfair world, and an ability to reason.

Quick question, why do you feel the need to leave the "O" out of God?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:42 am

YZGI;1429069 wrote: Quick question, why do you feel the need to leave the "O" out of God?He doesn't want God to find the forum when God does a google search of himself? He's so egotistical, G-d is.

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:49 am

Ahso!;1429072 wrote: He doesn't want God to find the forum when God does a google search of himself? He's so egotistical, G-d is.

:wah:

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:13 am

Ahso!;1429008 wrote: evolution is through intelligent design

Altthough I believe there is a pattern to the Universe, I don't believe in "intelligent design." Evolution is fine with me, because that's a part of the greater pattern.

Also, I'm interested to know something. Why do you make the leap that there's a God because you believe you had had an out of body experience? I don't recall you claiming you met God while you were unconscious. Did you say you did?

Oh, it's not much of a leap. Now that I know that there is a force that exists after the body dies, why wouldn't I believe in another, greater, all-encompassing force?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:20 am

Saint_;1429079 wrote: Oh, it's not much of a leap. Now that I know that there is a force that exists after the body dies, why wouldn't I believe in another, greater, all-encompassing force?A leap all the same.

I'd have guessed that you believed in God first so your experience while unconscious was interpreted through your belief or faith.

Have you looked into QM? There's an interesting hypothesis there concerning what happens following death.

Did you notice my other post regarding your intelligence issue?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:23 am

Saint_;1429079 wrote: Altthough I believe there is a pattern to the Universe, I don't believe in "intelligent design." Evolution is fine with me, because that's a part of the greater pattern.This is the problem with ID folks, they continue to call ID Evolution. That's what Pahu does as well.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:23 am

YZGI;1429069 wrote: Quick question, why do you feel the need to leave the "O" out of God?

I was taught as a child to spell it that way (not by my parents, btw, but other children) because the name of G-d is so holy, so varied, that we don't know his real name, also, that the name should be disguised so to prevent the defacement of the actual word, for example, if it were written down it could be destroyed.

I think the Hebrews got a kick out of doing things differently. They set themselves apart before they were set apart.

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:01 pm

Ahso!;1429081 wrote: There's an interesting hypothesis there concerning what happens following death.

Ahso, I saw the back of my own head as clearly as you see the table top in front of you. It wasn't some hazy, wavering, delusion. It was real. I learned details I hadn't known previously like the fact that I have a wave on the left side of my hair in the back, and a freckle just at the hairline. I had never looked at the back of my head, so how could I "interpret" that? I saw my own body fall to the floor for Pete's sake.

Look, I know I can't convince you, but I'm absolutely sure of what I saw and did. ( Believe me, the feeling of not breathing and not needing to breathe is VERY hard to forget.) You're the only one who will have to interpret my experience, for me...it's reality.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:10 pm

It must be frustrating not to be believed or even scorned for what you know to be true, yet can't prove.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:23 pm

YZGI;1429069 wrote: Quick question, why do you feel the need to leave the "O" out of God?

OK, I'll try to give you a quick answer.

As a rule one should never just write the Name of God.

Obviously I am referring to the four letter word, so does that apply in translation to English or other language speaking Jews?

The more Orthodox the more weird they get about it.

Normally I do not do the G-d thing. Only did it cause I was doing a post where it seemed appropriate.

I did a quick check for anybody interested and saw the God thing done a lot. Dunno who produce this site, certainly not by Orthodox.

It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form. Orthodox rabbis have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God online: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it. See a 1998 discussion of the issue at

The Name of G-d

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:25 pm

It's funny how things stick with you, but I always feel strange typing God, I want to type G-d, but I usually end up typing god.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Nobody is scorning anyone. All I'm saying is that I know of atheists who believe they've had out of body experiences too and don't associate the event with any God.

My point about QM:A near-death experience happens when quantum substances which form the soul leave the nervous system and enter the universe at large, according to a remarkable theory proposed by two eminent scientists.

According to this idea, consciousness is a program for a quantum computer in the brain which can persist in the universe even after death, explaining the perceptions of those who have near-death experiences. Can quantum physics explain the bizarre experiences of patients brought back from the brink of death? | Mail Online

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:30 pm

You might like this site better, td:

The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH

This site does not allow for copying.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:31 pm

Just speaking in general ahso, didn't mean you in particular.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:34 pm

AnneBoleyn;1429144 wrote: Just speaking in general ahso, didn't mean you in particular.I know. i was just making sure anyone else reading understood that too.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:40 pm

Ahso!;1429145 wrote: I know. i was just making sure anyone else reading understood that too.

We must zealously guard our reputations against being misunderstood.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:04 pm

AnneBoleyn;1429143 wrote: You might like this site better, td:

The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH

This site does not allow for copying.

Thank you, I saw that when looking for a source to help explain. It seemed a bit much for my purposes, but interesting they do not allow copying. That is certainly a more traditional source than I offered.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:40 pm

Ahso!;1429082 wrote: This is the problem with ID folks, they continue to call ID Evolution.
Do you see them as mutually exclusive? I don't really see the importance of the distinction; it's just that I don't see why the two concepts can't both be true.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:36 pm

Accountable;1429170 wrote: Do you see them as mutually exclusive? I don't really see the importance of the distinction; it's just that I don't see why the two concepts can't both be true.You don't? I'd be interested to learn more about that.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:48 am

Ahso!;1429177 wrote: You don't? I'd be interested to learn more about that.

Seems pretty simple to me. Some intelligent being designed the DNA; natural selection did the rest. Again, how do you explain them as being mutually exclusive?

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:57 am

Accountable;1429185 wrote: Seems pretty simple to me. Some intelligent being designed the DNA; natural selection did the rest. Again, how do you explain them as being mutually exclusive?Which would mean that it's not natural selection at all if a super human designed the DNA.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:28 pm

Ahso!;1429187 wrote: Which would mean that it's not natural selection at all if a super human designed the DNA.
1. I didn't mention a human, super or otherwise.

2. Why would it not be natural selection? I didn't say the being designed human beings, only DNA. The DNA could have been a bacterium which, over the millenia, evolved into the myriad life forms we see today.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:33 pm

Besides, natural selection has nothing at all to do with origination.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:01 pm

If a creator (super human) rather than nature had created DNA which holds the genetic code for life there would be nothing natural about it, it would be a kind of synthetic DNA. If we're going to take this silly scenario a step further and say that the super human also created nature, I'd say that's not nature then. That would make all of life a silly game. I'm not willing to submit to that unless you want to produce the super human (creator). Bring me your creator and I'll expose it as a fraud.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:04 pm

Accountable;1429264 wrote: Besides, natural selection has nothing at all to do with origination.We don't know that.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:26 pm

Ahso!;1429265 wrote: If a creator (super human) rather than nature had created DNA which holds the genetic code for life there would be nothing natural about it, it would be a kind of synthetic DNA. If we're going to take this silly scenario a step further and say that the super human also created nature, I'd say that's not nature then. That would make all of life a silly game. I'm not willing to submit to that unless you want to produce the super human (creator). Bring me your creator and I'll expose it as a fraud.

So unless it's complete random chance than you can't have faith in it?? You're the silly one. :wah:

Can we at least agree that it matters not one whit? How "Life" started does not change the way it is today. It has no impact on anything except our own idea of it, much like a doctor's finding out he was adopted would not invalidate his certification.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:31 pm

Accountable;1429273 wrote: So unless it's complete random chance than you can't have faith in it?? You're the silly one. :wah: Not unless it's out of nature. You want to call that "random chance" go right ahead, but you'd sound awful silly to those who actually understand the process.

Accountable;1429273 wrote: Can we at least agree that it matters not one whit? How "Life" started does not change the way it is today. It has no impact on anything except our own idea of it, much like a doctor's finding out he was adopted would not invalidate his certification.No we can't agree that it matters not one whit! If we're the product of a process by a mad scientist who started it all in an incubator, it's all controlled and I'm not buying one morsel of that unless you want to produce your creator. Do that and I'll happily admit my error.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:20 pm

So explain to me why it matters.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:32 pm

Accountable;1429278 wrote: So explain to me why it matters.I already have.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:40 am

Ahso!;1429280 wrote: I already have.
No, you didn't. You only said you don't buy it. I'm saying it doesn't matter. You're as illogical as the others who think God created us 6000 years ago exactly as we are, and stuck fossils in the ground just for fun.

How would sure knowledge that you evolved from a bacterium made in a petri dish make you any less than you are?

How would sure knowledge that you evolved from a bacterium made from complete random chance you any different?

How would sure knowledge that you are a descendant of an actual Adam & Eve make you any less than you are?

How would any sure knowledge of prehistory related to the development of human DNA change anything about you prior to that knowledge?

The only thing that would change would be your knowledge and attitude. You'd still be as much a human as you are now. You'd still be a father. You'd still have your memories. You'd still be you.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:13 am

tude dog;1429138 wrote: OK, I'll try to give you a quick answer.

As a rule one should never just write the Name of God.

Obviously I am referring to the four letter word, so does that apply in translation to English or other language speaking Jews?

The more Orthodox the more weird they get about it.

Normally I do not do the G-d thing. Only did it cause I was doing a post where it seemed appropriate.

I did a quick check for anybody interested and saw the God thing done a lot. Dunno who produce this site, certainly not by Orthodox.

The Name of G-d

AnneBoleyn;1429143 wrote: You might like this site better, td:

The Hebrew Name for God - YHVH

This site does not allow for copying.

Thanks, I'd seen it before but never had heard why. Is it just the Jewish that practice this? I grew up Methodist and Church of Christ and had never heard of it.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:24 am

Accountable;1429287 wrote: No, you didn't. You only said you don't buy it. I'm saying it doesn't matter. You're as illogical as the others who think God created us 6000 years ago exactly as we are, and stuck fossils in the ground just for fun.

How would sure knowledge that you evolved from a bacterium made in a petri dish make you any less than you are?

How would sure knowledge that you evolved from a bacterium made from complete random chance you any different?

How would sure knowledge that you are a descendant of an actual Adam & Eve make you any less than you are?

How would any sure knowledge of prehistory related to the development of human DNA change anything about you prior to that knowledge?

The only thing that would change would be your knowledge and attitude. You'd still be as much a human as you are now. You'd still be a father. You'd still have your memories. You'd still be you.There's no creator unless you want to produce one. I'm not going to play make-believe with you.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:51 am

YZGI;1429319 wrote: Thanks, I'd seen it before but never had heard why. Is it just the Jewish that practice this? I grew up Methodist and Church of Christ and had never heard of it.

I've only seen it among Jews.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:59 am

AnneBoleyn;1429334 wrote: I've only seen it among Jews.I think I recall something to that affect being raised catholic. But, it's the name of God and not the word "God" itself. That would also mean that the word "Lord" could not be used either. That's how I've always understood it anyway.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:15 am

Ahso!;1429321 wrote: There's no creator unless you want to produce one. I'm not going to play make-believe with you.
Go back under your rock, coward. You're terrified even to entertain hypotheticals, lest you find that your ideas aren't sound. You are no different than the religious people you ridicule. Apparently you ridicule to distract others from noticing your own phobias.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:33 am

Accountable;1429351 wrote: Go back under your rock, coward. You're terrified even to entertain hypotheticals, lest you find that your ideas aren't sound. You are no different than the religious people you ridicule. Apparently you ridicule to distract others from noticing your own phobias.I guess that means you won't be producing the creator?

Play your games with someone else. Want to talk facts? Let's do that.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:43 am

I don't think ahso is being a coward, he is a convinced atheist & god should not be a hypothetical. I respect him for it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:47 am

AnneBoleyn;1429365 wrote: I don't think ahso is being a coward, he is a convinced atheist & god should not be a hypothetical. I respect him for it.
He's a convinced atheist with a closed mind. He isn't willing to even consider anything other than what he has decided it Truth. He is no different than the religious zealots he ridicules. That deserves no respect.

eta: I haven't mentioned a diety once.

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:59 am

Accountable;1429367 wrote: He's a convinced atheist with a closed mind. He isn't willing to even consider anything other than what he has decided it Truth. He is no different than the religious zealots he ridicules. That deserves no respect.

eta: I haven't mentioned a diety once.Your insults aside. When we become an adult we put childish things behind us (paraphrased from 1st Corinthians). I've been down the God road and it's empty except for some mirages and illusions. The fact that I've been there and done that and prefer not to go through that conversation yet again with another person looking for empty dialogue means if you want to talk God, go talk God with other God people. This is like telling a young person that at a certain point in our lives we no longer discuss fairy tales.

Stomp your feet; clinch your fists; froth at the mouth all you want: God does not belong in a conversation regarding science, and evolution in particular. I'm happy to demonstrate that all day long. But play "what if" games? No thanks!

Saint_ · Post by **Saint_** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:14 pm

Ahso!;1429370 wrote: I've been down the God road.....

Umm, technically, since you're still alive you haven't been down the "God road" yet...

Ahso! · Post by **Ahso!** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:29 pm

Saint_;1429374 wrote: Umm, technically, since you're still alive you haven't been down the "God road" yet...I'm still waiting for you to either acknowledge or dispute the Neanderthal reference I left you days ago in response to that intelligence issue YOU raised.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:43 pm

posted by saint

never think that way, nor do any good Christians. God never forsakes anyone. They can, however, forsake themselves...

I wasn't referring to you specifically. There are plenty of christians who believe natural disasters, or just anything, are a punishment from god.

Isn't that better than thinking misery and suffering is meaningless and random? It's certainly more comforting and, for me, that's enough.

What makes you think I or any other atheist believes life is meaningless? About all we'd agree on (atheists that is) is that we don't have an answer but are sure there is no supreme being behind it all and the answer is probably 42. There are hundreds of theories to explore if you want. I see no reason to be religious just to find comfort or put another way I don't need faith to help me get by. To have faith you have to believe without reason getting in the way.

Which religion are you talking about? Christianity tells us to treat all others as we would be treated and love everyone.

Which version of Christianity are you referring to? There are some sects who insist theirs is the only true church and all others are wrong. Christians (both catholic and protestant) used to happily burn heretics at the stake for the sin of not accepting the orthodox view. There are plenty of sects who insist on their right to separate schooling so their children are not contaminated by other christian teachings. You could argue that they are not "true" christians I suppose

Where do you stand on transubstantiation for instance? Heretic or true believer? Personal path to jesus or follow a creed?

How about the current fuss over gay marriage? It's mainly christians that are so vehemently opposed to it. What is it then - treat all others as we would be treated and love everyone unless the preacher tells them otherwise?

So are you sure your version of Christianity is the right one? I dare say there are plenty of forums where you will find fellow Christians only too happy to tell you where you are wrong.

As to myself I am just making general points I am not referring to your beliefs in particular. Not being religious the matter is something I can discuss without the need to convince you I am right. If i thought I had all the answers I would probably be religious::sneaky:.

How about images of god? That was one of the main areas of disagreement between catholic and protestants - is worshipping the image of a saint or of christ not a form of idolatory? Sunni and shia muslims have the same kind of agreements. Why is it always the areas of disagreement that religions concentrate on?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:03 pm

Accountable;1429367 wrote: He's a convinced atheist with a closed mind. He isn't willing to even consider anything other than what he has decided it Truth. He is no different than the religious zealots he ridicules. That deserves no respect.

eta: I haven't mentioned a diety once.

Ahso! believes there are adults who play with imaginary friends. I'm sure in his life he has thoroughly considered god already. He has his truth, there is no god. It would be absurd for him to backtrack on what he has already thought through. He has reached his conclusion, has made his decision & is acting decisively. I think it is stability. His belief system is strong, he is confident he came to the conclusion right for him. I think in this he shows strength of character & non-passivity. I do respect him for it.

Ahso may correct me if I'm way off-base.