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sheep;1452596 wrote: Dear Mickiel, I want to apologize for creating any bad emotion in you because of my comments. My intentions were only to have you reconsider Paul's teachings in the context that he used them in.

I would hope that one posting on this forum would be an honest individual and honesty demands that one be objective about what is being presented to them and objectivity demands that one be thorough in ones evaluation of the facts being presented to them. It is my hope that maybe next time someone objects to something that you believe, and claim as fact, that you would be more thorough, objective, and honest.




Look, you have you're truth, and I have mine; they are just not in agreement. I don't need to put you're ways down in order to lift mine up; I am content in knowing that my understanding hardly ever matches others; and it is hardly ever influenced by others.

Peace on you're journey.

Its human nature to want to stay on top, if you have been on top for so long. You tend to often forget what the bottom is like. Christianity has been on top of religion for so long, it thinks it has a God given right and passage to be there. Well in a sense that they cannot understand, God did put them there, but not for the reasons they believe. I think they were put there to help deceive this whole world!

Which is stunning on its surface, but i think may well be true.

Heres a book I am going to buy next week;

Pagan Christianity ~ By Frank Viola and George Barna

Interesting. I signed up for the blog & ebook.

Accountable;1453390 wrote: Interesting. I signed up for the blog & ebook.




I can't wait to read it. Just the title was appealing enough to me.

The real truth is getting out slowly.

If you look at Revelations chapters 2 and 3, you are looking at the historical changes Gods various church eras are going through. The first change, or first stage of the church in Ephesus, I think was the first Christian church. That church, in Rev. 2nd chapter 1-7th verse, used to be called " The Way", Acts 9:2. Then the Romans started calling them Christians at Antioch, Acts 11:26." Not God or Christ, the Romans penned the term Christianity; this is the true birth and beginning of Christianitys fall.

Because from Antioch on forward throughout history, Christianity would never be the same. It is a church of God in deception and decline.

Now these 7 churches in Revelations are many things. They can be viewed as " Stages", " Changes", " Conditions", " Eras", that the churches of God have gone through and are going through or faults of the church as a whole no matter any of these previous things.

Bear this in mind as we go through these stages.

The first stage of Christian deception, or the church of God falling, is in Rev. 2:1-7. They were the first on the world scene, the first group of people to receive the actual Holy Spirit of God, ( and I think the last one since Christ left), : they had worked hard and laboured, which Jesus acknowledges in vs. 2, " I know your works and labour." Jesus continues in vs. 4, " But I have something against you, because you have left, ( or lost), your first love."

This is the beginning of this stage of the church becoming " Losers."

They actually left what they were first taught, and started mixing into the gospel the ways and means and cultures of this world. And the truth got mixed in with lies.

But what was their " First love?"

Mickiel;1453608 wrote: The first stage of Christian deception, or the church of God falling, is in Rev. 2:1-7. They were the first on the world scene, the first group of people to receive the actual Holy Spirit of God, ( and I think the last one since Christ left), : they had worked hard and laboured, which Jesus acknowledges in vs. 2, " I know your works and labour." Jesus continues in vs. 4, " But I have something against you, because you have left, ( or lost), your first love."

This is the beginning of this stage of the church becoming " Losers."

They actually left what they were first taught, and started mixing into the gospel the ways and means and cultures of this world. And the truth got mixed in with lies.

But what was their " First love?"




Their first love was " The Gospel", the real truth. Or the real truth about the Salvation of all of humanity being given freely by God and Christ, the real good news.

The lie of eternal damnation got immediately , although systematically, mixed into their conscious beliefs.

The way to deceive a bhurch, is to go after their first Love; or their foundations; satan did not want to remove that foundation, only " Alter it", so the church would keep growing, just growing in the wrong direction.

This first stage of the church, the one developed at Antioch, is the one given this message by Jesus in Revelations 2:1-7, it was the church at the end of the Apostolic age, and I personally believe no other Apostles have been called by God since then. ( and no other churches either). So these 7 stages of the churches in Revelation, are just continuing problems that Jesus has with his own church germinating and mixing with sins influences down through the ages.

Mickiel;1453913 wrote: This first stage of the church, the one developed at Antioch, is the one given this message by Jesus in Revelations 2:1-7, it was the church at the end of the Apostolic age, and I personally believe no other Apostles have been called by God since then. ( and no other churches either). So these 7 stages of the churches in Revelation, are just continuing problems that Jesus has with his own church germinating and mixing with sins influences down through the ages.


Down through the ages, or eras of the churches, or the times for each church to live in. A church, with Jesus having something against each stage, each era, each time set; and against something different in each time, so his church was raped and steadily has just not gotten over it; but it THINKS absolutely nothing like what I am writing; it THINKS its alright and growing. It thinks because it grew physically, no. 1 in the world, that it grew spiritually; which it did not.

I thought this read was of interest;

The Decline and Fall of Christianity

And this article was of interest;

The Rise and Fall of Christianity

The church goes from " Loosing their first love, ( or watering down the truth of everyone being saved), Rev. 2:1-7, to " The blasphemy of those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of satan", ( or Christians professing to be following Gods ways, but really are not; they are following the subtle influences of satan), the devil has imprisoned them, vs.10. Obvious deterioration.

The flames that are burning the church have gotten going real good now. The history of deception is in its second stage.

Mickiel;1454085 wrote: The church goes from " Loosing their first love, ( or watering down the truth of everyone being saved), Rev. 2:1-7, to " The blasphemy of those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of satan", ( or Christians professing to be following Gods ways, but really are not; they are following the subtle influences of satan), the devil has imprisoned them, vs.10. Obvious deterioration.

The flames that are burning the church have gotten going real good now. The history of deception is in its second stage.


That second stage was the " Smyrna stage." The third stage, Rev. 2:12-18, was the " Pergamos stage", They had the doctrines of Balaam, which was a teaching that corrupted marriage and its spirituality, and the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes , which elevated ministers to a much too high state where the " Lord it over the people", and Jesus said in 2:15 that he " Hated that!"

The church is really taking on things which Jesus now is expressing hate for.

Mickiel;1454104 wrote: That second stage was the " Smyrna stage." The third stage, Rev. 2:12-18, was the " Pergamos stage", They had the doctrines of Balaam, which was a teaching that corrupted marriage and its spirituality, and the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes , which elevated ministers to a much too high state where the " Lord it over the people", and Jesus said in 2:15 that he " Hated that!"

The church is really taking on things which Jesus now is expressing hate for.




But the church did manage to still do some things right, so satans takeover was not simple; the church struggled. Notice in Rev.2:2-3, the church was doing some good work, they were patient and still was able to spot false Apostles , they held fast to Jesus name-vs.13, ( which they still do), and they don't deny faith in Christ; so they were doing some things right; but that is the super power of satan, he allows that in his deceptions on believers, so he can maintain them in other more subtle deceptions.

The third stage of the church, or third era, or third serious development in history was Rev. 2:12-17, the " Pergamos era:", notice in vs. 13, satan now has " A seat in the church;, Christ speaking, " I know you're works, ( so they are still working, still trying to do right), and where you dwell, even where satans seat is." So Christ is perfectly aware that satan devil is actually sitting in his church , a member of it; they are still holding fast to Christ name; but satan is now complettely inside of the christian church, unrecognized then, and now; he still sits there now.

Mickiel;1454194 wrote: The third stage of the church, or third era, or third serious development in history was Rev. 2:12-17, the " Pergamos era:", notice in vs. 13, satan now has " A seat in the church;, Christ speaking, " I know you're works, ( so they are still working, still trying to do right), and where you dwell, even where satans seat is." So Christ is perfectly aware that satan devil is actually sitting in his church , a member of it; they are still holding fast to Christ name; but satan is now complettely inside of the christian church, unrecognized then, and now; he still sits there now.


And it was Jesus who said he sees satan sitting in his church, so no Christian can say he is not. But they all will say it.

The church moves on to the 4th stage, or the 4th scripture giving Jesus discourse on his own church; Rev. 2:18-29, the Church at " Thyatira", or the church at satans feet, the church in satans grip- from the inside out. Vs. 19, Jesus knows they are still working, still have faith, are still patient and serving; they are being raped by satan and still don't realize it, they are still thinking they are just fine, ( as they still do now). But Jesus still has more " Against them"; against this, his own church; vs.20; Jesus accuses them of fornication and Adultry, them and their leaders. Something they continue to do unto this day.

Mickiel;1454204 wrote: And it was Jesus who said he sees satan sitting in his church, so no Christian can say he is not. But they all will say it.

The church moves on to the 4th stage, or the 4th scripture giving Jesus discourse on his own church; Rev. 2:18-29, the Church at " Thyatira", or the church at satans feet, the church in satans grip- from the inside out. Vs. 19, Jesus knows they are still working, still have faith, are still patient and serving; they are being raped by satan and still don't realize it, they are still thinking they are just fine, ( as they still do now). But Jesus still has more " Against them"; against this, his own church; vs.20; Jesus accuses them of fornication and Adultry, them and their leaders. Something they continue to do unto this day.




The church is moving through time and getting worse, picking up deceptive baggage all along the way; being systematically duped by satan and his brilliant deceptions. Deceptions that are like parasites, they are attached to the church, become a part of the church, and are made and designed to be accepted by the church, as if they belong in the church.

In Rev. 3rd chapter, vs. 1-6 is the 5th stage of digression in the first church. In Rev. 3:1, Jesus says the church is dead! In vs 2 he says he has not found their works perfect before God, so now their works have been perverted. So Christianity is now a dead church with perverted works, even their trying to serve has been perverted.

The Christian church has burnt out, and all this according to Christ.