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acydikeen wrote: No, they're not the victims, and the victim will have to go to councilling for many years, I presume..

But thats the difference:

Psycho-therapy

Councilling

Yes, this child is traumatised, but it is the duty of some to ensure that the reason these children did what they did is found, and that they never do it again..

Personally, I do blame a hell of a lot of this on the media..

Yes, they say people cannot be influenced by video-games and movies, but thats bullshit. Movies are very influential in modern-day life.

After all, the Bulger Killers were "reinacting" a scene from Resevoir Dogs..


And how many criminal acts of such horrific magnitude are made into movies.... Helter Skelter comes to mind. Or idiots in jail writing books of their crimes for money. Yeah what does this teach these budding criminals.

smithy87 wrote: I saw this on the news this morning. Its horrifying. All we seem to be hearing these days is kids beating people to death. but as usual the law is a p*ss take and if found guilty they'll be put in a cushy detention centre and then let out with new id's costing the taxpayer thousands.

If they're capable of that at 11 + 12 yrs old, what will they be like later on in life?



They should be locked up and left to rot :-5Read it in the Mail, www.dailymail.co.uk

Whether rehabilitation works or not, in cases such as this, we need to recognise society's need for revenge and bang them up for life.

TMC wrote: Whether rehabilitation works or not, in cases such as this, we need to recognise society's need for revenge and bang them up for life.


Bring back the death penalty, bring back harsh penalties to kids, and for god sake give these dam little devils something to think about, such as the big C word..... Consequences. Crikey these days kids don't get it.

acydikeen wrote: Yes, because the death penalty will REALLY work..

Because lets just turn ourselves into a COUNTRY of murderers in order to serve justice on a few :-5

Oh-lambaba, you've all lost the plot with this one!


lets remember you're talking to people who have children. I asked you did you have any and didn't get a reply, so I ASSUME you don't.

I would give my life for my children and also take one should they ever come to harm. Its a natural instinct.

That's the point - justice is NEVER served. Very shortly this country will start retaliating against the system that fails them and you'll see a rise in vigilantes. Sad, but true

acydikeen wrote: Yes, because the death penalty will REALLY work..

Because lets just turn ourselves into a COUNTRY of murderers in order to serve justice on a few :-5

Oh-lambaba, you've all lost the plot with this one!


Look back on history when we did have the death penalty, kids did not kill. They had something to be fearful off. Come on with DNA testing, and video cameras, and all the chances of capital punishment for the wrong person are almost nil. If you knew you would pay dearly for a crime, would you not think twice ... of course you would. Again it is called consequences. Councelling offers no consequences.

acydikeen wrote: Lets hope you never run for office..

I imagine you'd allow yourself to be rules by the mob


Imagination has little to do with reality.

minks wrote: Look back on history when we did have the death penalty, kids did not kill. They had something to be fearful off. Come on with DNA testing, and video cameras, and all the chances of capital punishment for the wrong person are almost nil. If you knew you would pay dearly for a crime, would you not think twice ... of course you would. Again it is called consequences. Councelling offers no consequences.


This is my point. Its ok going to counselling and them telling you that its because Tom and Jerry made you do it. But what actual punishment are we offering to make these nutters stand and think about what they're doing? The UK justice system leaves a hell of a lot to be desired.

acydikeen wrote: *sigh*

You lot have selective hearing, no?



I AGREE THAT WE NEED TO TEACH IT IN SCHOOLS.

YES, THE ORGANISATION I WORK FOR PROMOTES IT.



BUT WHAT YOU DID NOT READ, AND WHAT I AM SAYING IS:

CHILDREN ARE MORE LIKELY TO LISTEN TO PARENTS AND SIBLINGS, OR FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE PROVIDED BY A CELEBRITY ICON, THAN THEY ARE TO LISTEN TO THEIR TEACHERS/EDUCATORS..



Is it so hard to read what I've written?Not really......... I think you are saying that psychotherapy is the answer. NOT until you were pinned down did you slightly go into a defensive mode about what would work:



You start here with your psychotherapy re-hab speil:



No.

Locking them up is by far the worst option to take.

These children need psycho-therapy, and need to realise what they have done is wrong, but locking them up (apart from being ilegal ) will just make them resent humanity even more..



And continue here:



Quote:

Originally Posted by smithy87

And when they do get their pyshco therapy and released back into society (because we can't let them resent humanity) lets move them next door to your wife and kids eh?





Why not?

Its exactly that kind of attitude that makes this society so "base"..



Most "psychotic" diseases can be cured with the correct medication, and the correct psychotherapy.

They can be cured, but they will never intergrate themselves back into society properly, and learn to live a normal life until people stop these predjudices!



Originally Posted by smithy87

yes and look what happened to them. They got re-released with new id's and now lead a nice life where as the poor child they tortured and killed didn't have a choice.



Yes locking them up is illegal but so is murdering or trying to murder a child.





No, they're not the victims, and the victim will have to go to councilling for many years, I presume..

But thats the difference:

Psycho-therapy

Councilling



Yes, this child is traumatised, but it is the duty of some to ensure that the reason these children did what they did is found, and that they never do it again..





Still no mention of anything but "Psycho-therapy Councilling"







Originally Posted by smithy87

Do-gooders like you make this society stink because the guilty party are always thought of before the victims and its a disgrace.



I am a child-care worker, and I find that comment deeply offensive..

You think I would put a tourtured child after its attackers???

You have no idea how upset feel for this child, and his family..



But I realise the importance to get to the bottom of WHY those children did this attck, and the best way is to see a psychotherapist..





Originally Posted by smithy87

All that you type is 'yes the child might be traumistised but......' 'the child might need counselling but.....'



What about if they're not pyschotic? What if medication won't work? You are telling me that ALL 5 KIDS are in need of medication to 'cure' them. I'm not a child-care worker but I am a mother. Put it this way, if that was my 5yr old I know exactly what cure them little sh*ts would get from me



You don't see that by actually undergoing psychotherapy, the Docs will determine if these kids:


Are psychotic

Can/cannot be cured

The best action in regards to public safety

Contrary to your belief here, I am NOT defending these kids..

But your petty-minded threats of violence against them makes you no better than them:

They're 12/13 and your twice that (I think, sorry if I'm wrong)..



"Classical conditioning": If a child sees something performed by someone they believe to be in the right, they will believe that action to be a correct one.



Do you wish to make such an example?



Still nothing but "Psycho-therapy Councilling" out of your posts.......... Are you seeing it now?



Originally Posted by pantsonfire321@aol.com

So the bulger boys were influenced by a film - i find it very hard to belive that they put a baby on a railway line to be cut in half was because they watched a movie .one day society has to face up to the fact that we have sick twisted nasty little bastards living in our midst no amount of counciling will alter this fact they are evil and you cant cure evil.



"Good and evil" don't exist..

Its all down to your viewpoint, which in a child, is very dependant upon their upkeeping..



You cannot be born inherantly evil, nor can you be "evil"..

thats just a poor excuse..

The problem is path/psychological..

Quote:

Originally Posted by acydikeen

I Am Getting ****in Sick Of This Now:

I Made one Post About How I Don't Think Locking Them Up In Jail And Throwing Away The Key Is A Good Way To Teach Them Their Lesson, And Suddenly I Have Every Tom, Dick And Harry Jumping On Me Like I'm The Bloody Badguy???



I Am Not Condoning These Murders.

I Have Barely Even Offered That Much In The Way Of Opinion:

What I Have Given Is Legal And Psychological Fact!



If You Are All Having A Problem With This, Don't Go Looking To Blame Me, Blame The ****i System..



I'm Getting Bloody Sick Of Some Of The *convienient Hearing* And Pure-and-utter Narrow-mindedness On This Place!





You might like to go back yourself and re-read your post and you might see what you are really saying.......psychotherapy, psychotherapy, psychotherapy, psychotherapy, psychotherapy,

acydikeen wrote: I Am Getting ****in Sick Of This Now:

I Made one Post About How I Don't Think Locking Them Up In Jail And Throwing Away The Key Is A Good Way To Teach Them Their Lesson, And Suddenly I Have Every Tom, Dick And Harry Jumping On Me Like I'm The Bloody Badguy???

I Am Not Condoning These Murders.

I Have Barely Even Offered That Much In The Way Of Opinion:

What I Have Given Is Legal And Psychological Fact!

If You Are All Having A Problem With This, Don't Go Looking To Blame Me, Blame The ****i System..

I'm Getting Bloody Sick Of Some Of The *convienient Hearing* And Pure-and-utter Narrow-mindedness On This Place!


We're not blaming you. We're blaming a system that fails us and you're offering counselling as an answer. Its not an answer or a solution.

We're not narrow minded either. The facts are pure and simple - 5 kids try and murder a 5yr old. They need to be punished. If you hadn't have told me your job I would've said you were a social worker

acydikeen wrote: Really?

Ah, are you sure?

I'm sure they killed him in another way (maybe I'm thinking of something else)..



But then again, a railway line and someone tied to it:

Tom and Jerry

Itchy and Scratchy

Almost every destructive cartoon in the history of mankind!Let me refresh your memory.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_m ... ml?sect=10



And when you've read it, tell me that Tom & Jerry had something to do with their actions!

It's been asked, but where is the answer? Do you have children? EXPERIENCE is a much better teacher than a book.

acydikeen wrote: So you want to reintroduce things like the death penalty.. on a bunch of pre-teenage kids???

Wether or not I have kids is not important, and actually, the fact that I don't helps me to see this situation properly:

You allow your vision to be clouded by this..


you think my vision is clouded because I would do anything to protect my children? Well thank god it is.

Yes I would introduce the death penalty because there doesn't seem to be a punishment that fits the crime. Counselling is not a punishment.

If a child of mine commited some thing as horrific as the bulger boys i would have no qualms at all of turning them in MYSELF .

acydikeen wrote: I do indeed work closely with Social Services..

And the fact that I have no children allows me to see this situation clearly..

Yes, these children need to be punished, and they will be..

But you want to physically beat them, bring back corporal punishment or the death sentence to do it?

Have you not lost sight of something, you mothers and fathers out there:

These children will also have parents.

Presuming these parents are of the decent type, can you imagine what THEY are going through?


They must be going through hell and probably blaming themselves. But my thoughts are with the baby's family who was nearly murdered and the baby himself. I have no other feelings for the 5 kids who did it, unlike you who clearly does. My priorities are right

acydikeen wrote: Conselling is not supposed to be the punishment!

It is supposed to be the answer in founding out why this happened!

The fact that you have children makes you automatically sympathise with the parents of this child, understandable..

But it also blinds you from any reasonable cause of action in this situation..

You want to bring back the death penalty on a bunch of kids for attempted murder?

If you ran the country, we'd be a police-state overnight, with hanging for TWOC no doubt :-5


Oh well if its attempted murder that's ok then. Silly me :yh_eyebro

OK lets council them - just untill they are 18 then let them spend the rest of their lives in prison reflecting on the crime THEY have committed .

acydikeen wrote: So YOU would jail someone for life for attempted murder?

Wow, you lot are bllody Conservatives in disguise, no?

Or maybe just Republicans


I just can't believe how you seem to think ATTEMPTED murder is probably bad, but not that bad. Thank Christ you don't run the country.

No, we're people with common sense who live in the real world and who want their children to be able to play out and go to school.

You really are that blinded by your psychotherapy self help counselling shite that you can't see people who put other people's lives in danger need punishing.

Acydikeen have you ever worked with kids who have committed very serious offences ? do you have any proof, can you give an example where a child has been cured.why do people allways want to give offenders a second chance isnt killing once enough or do we give them a second try .YES i would lock them up forever. then council them to your hearts content!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:wah:

acydikeen wrote: I know they need punishing, you bloody fool, WILL YOU READ MY POSTS!

God knows all I am doing is repeating myself in front of a wall of pure ignorance :-5

But they do NOT NEED TO DIE, which is basically what you are suggesting..

But even if we stick with you "throw 'em in jail, throw away the key" policy here, we will never find out why it happend.

We need to know why so we can:
Discover if there is danger of a reocursion within ANY human (maybe a TV show, or computer game put the idea in their head?)

Find out more about what makes people violent, helping towards medical research in general

find out if these people can be cured!


It really is a moot point.

Wether or not you like it, this will be the procedure followed, it practically always is..


hang on, pipe down. Don't start resorting to name calling because then you are showing your immaturity. Grow up.

I do not agree with you and you do not agree with me. That's ok. Its an opinion.

I would rather my money go to medical research for cancer patients than little sh*ts who can decifer right from wrong

acydikeen wrote: I'm not resulting to "pintless name calling"

Its not pointless, because its true:

YOU NEED TO READ MY POSTS, AND STOP HAVING ME REPEAT MYSELF

Because thats all I have done over the last few pages..

*sigh*

Yes, money will be spent, but the main idea of the psychotherapy is to find out WHY (I have repeated this so many fu*king times, will you just get your head from up your arse and LISTEN) they have tone this, and to make them realise it was wrong..


if getting annoyed makes you swear maybe you need to look at the issues in your life? A bit of counselling? :p

look lets agree do disagree because you're boring me now. :yh_sleep

p.s. and actually have a nice arse so its not the worst place my head could be :-4

I do agree with acyd on 2 points here. One is, I do feel for the parents of the kids who did it. They could be good parents whose kids crumbled to peer pressure, etc., but I think they need way more than psychiatric treatment to prevent it from ever happening again. Point 2 is I would like to know WHY, what went wrong with the kids, what caused this, to prevent it with future generations, to see that they become productive human beings, etc.

At this point you don't know what happened, bullying that went too far or simple sadism, (not quite right but hopefully you get my drift) kids are little thugs-ever fight with a sibling? bully someone yourself? Tortiure the neighbours cat to see what it would do? I had a nephew hit his elder brother in a fit of temper-unfortunately it was because his big brother didn't think his little brother should be playing with an axe taken from daddy's tool box-minor injury and both laugh about it now as teenagers but one of the reasons for keeping kids away from dangerous things is because they can't appreciate the consequences of their actions.

They've let four of the five go-sound like one ringleader a bully and the rest going along with it very human behaviour.

I would be willing to bet most of us know some little hooligan that turned out all right as an adult just assuming they are evil little ^**^%^% avoids the question why, locking them up and throwing away the key solves nothing. next time you hear someone saying bullying is part of growing up kids need to get used to just ask where bullying stop and sadistic torture begin.

Wait and find out what happened before you judge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

Insanity or religious belief?

acydikeen wrote: FINALLY!

Someone with some sense!



But I have no doubt some of the others on this thread would find bullying to be natural, all "part of growing up" :-5you have a consistantly insulting manner about you, if posters don't agree with you, they have no sense evidently. for all of your 20 years, and being aware you are an expert in your own mind, i have been in law enforcement since before you were born, so MAYBE i know something. i know no less than 9 child murderers. personally. up close, not esoterically. MAYBE i know a few things you don't, although i hate to presume. you may well be vastly more qualified to hold forth and denigrate everyone's opinions. perhaps you are the last word in child psychology and the banality and nature of evil.

acydikeen wrote: And YOU are the law on my opinion?

What YOU need to realise is that everyone is not here to bend over to YOU..



I will argue my opinions out to the end, whatever it takes. I will not back down in the face of your (or anyones) intimidation, no matter how many saps in the past have



You know, your signature says everything I need to know about you:

Mad cop with a gun..you don't respond to the point taken. and everyone knows my sig is a joke, except you evidently DUH. ... you digress mr. expert. this isn't about me, it's about your arrogance. you kind of got off topic when you were challenged as to your expertise. a diversion as it were. tell us why you are an expert in child murderers.

acydikeen wrote: Did I ever once claim to be an expert on these matters?

No..



But YOU have..

Tell us how YOU, a run-of-the-mill cop are such an expert..perhaps because i have studied criminology for 30 years, been a cop/homicide detective for 20, know some child murderers, taught law, i MIGHT know a couple things. and homicide is my speciality...want to go head to head on that subject? run of the mill as i am. LOL