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Mark Aspam;1476506 wrote: I posted that because it seemed to me that a stupid question deserved a flippant answer.

Why do you think that I - and the other billion - shouldn't be Catholic and what do you think that I/we should be instead? This should be good.

AFTERTHOUGHT: If your question was sincere and I misinterpreted it, I'll give you a sincere answer. Then you can tell me why you are whatever you are and we can compare, it might even be material for a new thread.That's how you're going to play this off, by claiming the question "why are you catholic?" is a "stupid" one?

You know what, I think being flippant is the best you had, which does in fact answer the question.

Thanks! I'm happy to leave it right here and allow future visitors of this thread judge for themselves.

Ahso!;1476515 wrote: That's how you're going to play this off, by claiming the question "why are you catholic?" is a "stupid" one?

.....
What he might have been saying is that your question “smells like a trap.

High Threshold;1476516 wrote: What he might have been saying is that your question “smells like a trap.Christian paranoia? He might have reason to think that had I not constructed my original post as I did.

Mark Aspam;1476506 wrote:

AFTERTHOUGHT:You could use more of that. Then you can tell me why you are whatever you are and we can compare, it might even be material for a new thread.As for me, I'm an Abigfootist.

Ahso!;1476525 wrote: You could use more of that. As for me, I'm an Abigfootist.Well, I don't want to extend this much farther because it's way beyond the topic of the thread.

Most Catholics including myself will tell you that they are Catholics because all of the other Christian denoms were founded by sinful humans and Catholicism has no founder other than the sinless Christ.

Now, having established that, your question seemed to imply that because some people with nothing better to do than try to characterize Catholicism in terms of its shortcomings - and it has now, and has had throughout its history lots of them - that I should be so ashamed of my affiliation that I reject it.

But the essence of Christianity - Catholic or otherwise - is about one's relationship with God through Christ, notwithstanding the imperfections of our fellow Christians.

OK? That's about as plainly as I can state it. If you want to continue the discussion we could open a new thread.

(Godwin be damned)

That's like Josef Mengele saying it was only about the science, that it would serve humanity in the long run.

Mark Aspam;1476506 wrote: I posted that because it seemed to me that a stupid question deserved a flippant answer.

Why do you think that I - and the other billion - shouldn't be Catholic and what do you think that I/we should be instead? This should be good.

AFTERTHOUGHT: If your question was sincere and I misinterpreted it, I'll give you a sincere answer. Then you can tell me why you are whatever you are and we can compare, it might even be material for a new thread.


Just out of curiosity what do you know about the protestant churches and what their dispute with Catholicism is all about.

Protestant Reformation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Millions died fighting over it I'm just surprised you don't seem to have heard of it.

The thing about those who object to an apparent insistence on political correctness ( and yes I would agree they sometimes have a point) is they forget it is also an insistence that all are treated with equal respect.

It's wrong for these people to claim the right to discriminate against homosexuals because of their religion just as it would be wrong to allow them the right to discriminate against women because their religion teaches them that they are second class citizens and eve was to blame for us being thrown out of paradise.

OK Daily mail not the most reliable of sources but do you think sensitivity training might help these guys? Or is it OK because their religion tells them so.

ISIS throws man off tower block for 'being gay' then stone him when he SURVIVED the fall | Daily Mail Online

Why is it, that every time anyone claims they are an adherent of a religion, you guys want to bring up all the evil that men have done in the name of that religion?

Yes. Men have committed evil acts in the name of their religion. Men have committed evil acts in the name of their country, their family, their favorite sports team. Men commit evil. That is a fact.

Should we renounce our membership in the human race because of what humans have done?

Though I sometimes wish to do exactly that. I recognize the futility of it.

Religion, like life itself, is about what you, as a person do with it. There are millions of humans on the planet that have NOT committed evil in the name of their God, or their religion or their country. What would you ask of those people? That they abandon what they hold dear because of the actions of those others?

LarsMac;1476563 wrote: Why is it, that every time anyone claims they are an adherent of a religion, you guys want to bring up all the evil that men have done in the name of that religion?

Yes. Men have committed evil acts in the name of their religion. Men have committed evil acts in the name of their country, their family, their favorite sports team. Men commit evil. That is a fact.

Should we renounce our membership in the human race because of what humans have done?

Though I sometimes wish to do exactly that. I recognize the futility of it.

Religion, like life itself, is about what you, as a person do with it. There are millions of humans on the planet that have NOT committed evil in the name of their God, or their religion or their country. What would you ask of those people? That they abandon what they hold dear because of the actions of those others?Amazing!

Ahso!;1476566 wrote: Amazing!


It's a valid question. You have no answer, though, it seems.

LarsMac;1476567 wrote: It's a valid question. You have no answer, though, it seems.I'm debating whether or not to waste my time answering it.

LarsMac;1476563 wrote: Why is it, that every time anyone claims they are an adherent of a religion, you guys want to bring up all the evil that men have done in the name of that religion?

Yes. Men have committed evil acts in the name of their religion. Men have committed evil acts in the name of their country, their family, their favorite sports team. Men commit evil. That is a fact.

Should we renounce our membership in the human race because of what humans have done?

Though I sometimes wish to do exactly that. I recognize the futility of it.

Religion, like life itself, is about what you, as a person do with it. There are millions of humans on the planet that have NOT committed evil in the name of their God, or their religion or their country. What would you ask of those people? That they abandon what they hold dear because of the actions of those others?


Religion is a man made construct created so that the behaviour of their fellow men could be controlled through fear and that defying those placed over them by god meant eternal damnation. Moses came down from the mountain and used religion to get control of the israelites and get them to do his bidding. Clearly I don'lt think god had anything to do with it. You can look at both Christianity and islam and see how it was crafted to do just that. Come to that the schism between shia and sunni is essentially the same as that between Catholicism and Protestantism - is the way to salvation through following a creed and believing what the priest tells you or do you find your own way to god.

To get back to the original post religious belief is no justification for claiming special dispensation to preach a load of nonsense or that one section of society is inferior and should be discriminated against. I say inferior because if they truly believed all men and women were created by god then god is the one that made them homosexual and who are they to decide what god intended for them? Are you really saying only they can hear what god wants.

Life is so much easier as an atheist it's really quite simple treat other as you would be treated yourself and don't waste your life worrying if they are worthy or not in the eyes of god before you decide someone if free to live a they choose so long as it does not harm others. Only the religious can demand tolerance for their beliefs and see nothing hypocritical about denying it to others because god told them not to.

LarsMac;1476563 wrote: Why is it, that every time anyone claims they are an adherent of a religion, you guys want to bring up all the evil that men have done in the name of that religion?


I think it is because those professing faith more often than not are willing to overlook (or even support/excuse/motivate) their own crimes while condemning others. At least that's the reason why I bring it up.

LarsMac;1476563 wrote: Men have committed evil acts in the name of their country, their family, their favorite sports team.
But none of those are self-proclaimed representatives of The Almighty. We don't rely upon them to teach us right from wrong.

LarsMac;1476563 wrote: Should we renounce our membership in the human race because of what humans have done?


Being a member of the human race doesn't require an adherent claim to membership. Renouncing or pledging doesn't even enter into it.

gmc;1476572 wrote: ..... Life is so much easier as an atheist it's really quite simple ...... treat other as you would be treated yourself and don't waste your life worrying ...
You are over-simplifying. Life is not easier as an atheist. And how to apply the golden rule isn't always (seldom, as a mettra' fect) very clear. Life, I would say, is so much easier for orthodox followers and cult members. There is always someone there to tell them exactly what to do in each and every circumstance. Life doesn't get simpler than that.

gmc;1476572 wrote: Religion is a man made construct created so that the behaviour of their fellow men could be controlled through fear and that defying those placed over them by god meant eternal damnation. Moses came down from the mountain and used religion to get control of the israelites and get them to do his bidding. Clearly I don'lt think god had anything to do with it. You can look at both Christianity and islam and see how it was crafted to do just that. Come to that the schism between shia and sunni is essentially the same as that between Catholicism and Protestantism - is the way to salvation through following a creed and believing what the priest tells you or do you find your own way to god.

To get back to the original post religious belief is no justification for claiming special dispensation to preach a load of nonsense or that one section of society is inferior and should be discriminated against. I say inferior because if they truly believed all men and women were created by god then god is the one that made them homosexual and who are they to decide what god intended for them? Are you really saying only they can hear what god wants.

Life is so much easier as an atheist it's really quite simple treat other as you would be treated yourself and don't waste your life worrying if they are worthy or not in the eyes of god before you decide someone if free to live a they choose so long as it does not harm others. Only the religious can demand tolerance for their beliefs and see nothing hypocritical about denying it to others because god told them not to.


Interesting. I find nothing to disagree with in this post.

And yet we see things from nearly polar opposites.

I know many people who consider themselves religious, who go about their lives, denying nothing to other people, but simply living by the tenets of their belief system.

They recognize that the history of their religion includes brutality, and hatred, but they have moved on to present. No need to dwell on what happened in the reformation, or during the Civil war, or in Ireland, or Mecca, or Dachau, Buchenwald, Jerusalem, of Topeka, a year ago, 70 years ago, or a thousand years ago. Those times are gone. We are here, now, hoping that all of that can be left behind, and we can move forward.

You really don't need to constantly remind them of the past.

The teachings of Peace & Morals found within all Religions may be noble ones, once the imaginary God figures are put aside. However, as with many things, theory & practice rarely match up. In Christianity alone the source figures are obviously the same ones, yet there have been countless cults, sects & denominations which have constantly been killing & torturing each other in the name of Love & Peace in an attempt to make the others believe that their interpretation is the right one & that all others are sinful. Then you look at Islam. The figures in the Qu'ran are mainly the same as those in the Bible. The same God. The same Prophets. Even Jesus is one of their most important Prophets, yet not only have they been at odds with all the other Religions ever since Religion began, but just as with Christianity they're also fighting amongst their own denominations (Shia & Sunni), once again, all in the name of a loving God.

As I said, I applaud the ideals of Peace & Social Morals, which are the root of all Religions, but you don't have to bear allegiance to ANY Religion in order to follow such a path - in fact it makes it more likely to do so if you don't follow any Religion to influence you by leading you from the path of non-objectivity.

Yes - humans do evil things. Humans created Religion.

High Threshold;1476575 wrote: You are over-simplifying. Life is not easier as an atheist. And how to apply the golden rule isn't always (seldom, as a mettra' fect) very clear. Life, I would say, is so much easier for orthodox followers and cult members. There is always someone there to tell them exactly what to do in each and every circumstance. Life doesn't get simpler than that.


We can agree to disagree without the need to pick up cudgels, either real or metaphorical, to persuade.

Followers of religion have to live in fear of what will happen if they start to question their faith or wonder if they are being told the "right" thing by their priest it's like living with a night terror that's always there waiting to pounce. I don't believe in evil either it's another construct to keep control - if you question religious belief you must be being influenced by satan therefore you are evil and should not be listened to. It also conveniently explains away behaviours we just find incomprehensible.

No I don't think it is easier for the religious - they live in a world where they have free will to choose what they believe but god already knows what they will choose so were they really free in the first place and if others choose to follow a different religious path and god gave them free will as well and knew what they would choose why is they are going to hell and condemn the sin but not the sinner and how can you be sure that god didn't mean us all to be homosexual - after all it was heterosexuals that got us chucked out of paradise and if adam had free will god must have known what would happen. No wonder they don't like to think too deeply - maybe they do have it easier but all that worry about what if you made the wrong choice. Nah I don't think so.

gmc;1476587 wrote: We can agree to disagree ....
I'll let you know in a minute.



gmc;1476587 wrote: .... without the need to pick up cudgels, either real or metaphorical, to persuade.
Let's see this cudgel of yours first and then I'll let you know whether or not I am willing to drop out of the discussion and "agree to disagree" instead. I am being serious and I hope your suggestion isn't your way of coaxing me out the back door rather than to consider the simplicity of living the life of an orthodox or a cult member. Or maybe you feel my input is off-topic or diluting your agenda?

Making all your own decisions is NOT the simplest way of life. I am surprised you don't agree with that.

LarsMac;1476576 wrote: Interesting. I find nothing to disagree with in this post.

And yet we see things from nearly polar opposites.

I know many people who consider themselves religious, who go about their lives, denying nothing to other people, but simply living by the tenets of their belief system.

They recognize that the history of their religion includes brutality, and hatred, but they have moved on to present. No need to dwell on what happened in the reformation, or during the Civil war, or in Ireland, or Mecca, or Dachau, Buchenwald, Jerusalem, of Topeka, a year ago, 70 years ago, or a thousand years ago. Those times are gone. We are here, now, hoping that all of that can be left behind, and we can move forward.

You really don't need to constantly remind them of the past.


I also know many people like that and if all religious people were like that there would be no problem. I also know many who use their religion as an excuse for bigotry and actively discriminate against those of a different faith while on the face of it practising peace and goodwill. Try telling an Orangeman that they should forget the past and let bygones be bygones or an IRA man that they should leave northern Ireland alone and accept it is protestant. When then pope can get away with stating that hitler did what he did because he was an atheist are we really supposed to forget the responsibility the Christian and the catholic church in particular played in the prevalence of anti-Semitism in Europe and throughout the Americas? Should we not say hang on a minute that is just not what happened. Whatever else hitler was he was not an atheist.

These things may be in the past but they have influenced the way we think and act and it is a truism, (IMO) that if we forget the past we are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again. It's happening all over again with a frightening religious revival that once again is making life miserable for those who do not conform.

This thread started out with the original poster supporting the notion that those with a particular religious belief are entitled to be allowed to actively discriminate against those whose lifestyle or beliefs they disagree with and you say we don't need to remind them of the past and why they live in a secular society?

posted by high threshold

Let's see this cudgel of yours first and then I'll let you know whether or not I am willing to drop out of the discussion and "agree to disagree" instead. I am being serious and I hope your suggestion isn't your way of coaxing me out the back door rather than to consider the simplicity of living the life of an orthodox or a cult member. Or maybe you feel my input is off-topic or diluting your agenda?

Making all your own decisions is NOT the simplest way of life. I am surprised you don't agree with that.




Like I said I don't need to use one - a cudgel that is. Agree or disagree with me as you choose I don't actually have an agenda I just enjoy discussing these things.

To me making your own decisions is the only way to live to do other wise is to abrogate all responsibility for your actions. Would you really ostracise some someone, for instance, at the behest of your church or would you make your own value judgement? At some point you must be responsible for what you do if not then you allow someone else to tell you how to live your live. Take guidance if you will but it always come back to the individual or will you some day be standing in front of your creator saying but he told me to do it I did not make my own decision?

Making all your own decisions is NOT the simplest way of life




So who makes yours for you?

gmc;1476562 wrote: 1. Just out of curiosity what do you know about the protestant churches and what their dispute with Catholicism is all about....Millions died fighting over it I'm just surprised you don't seem to have heard of it.

2. It's wrong for these people to claim the right to discriminate against homosexuals because of their religion just as it would be wrong to allow them the right to discriminate against women because their religion teaches them that they are second class citizens and eve was to blame for us being thrown out of paradise.

OK Daily mail not the most reliable of sources but do you think sensitivity training might help these guys? Or is it OK because their religion tells them so.

ISIS throws man off tower block for 'being gay' then stone him when he SURVIVED the fall | Daily Mail Online1. Why would you assume that I was unaware of that? The Wikipedia article is excellent, but I don't find much there that I wasn't aware of. Catholic high school students study Church history, which certainly includes the reformation and counter-reformation, for an entire school year, so I probably knew much more about it than you did at that age. (ADDED LATER: In fact, my term paper was on pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia), one of the worst popes of all time, and I think that I got an "A" on the paper, but that was SIXTY years ago, so I'm not sure!)

For me, PERSONALLY, it just comes down to what I stated previously, a choice between sinful "reformers" (the nun-chasing Luther being probably the sleaziest) or the sinless Christ. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

2. As for the rest, I'm not sure who/what you're referring to here. Who are "these people"?

But as I keep saying, it's way off the topic of the thread.

gmc;1476631 wrote: ... To me making your own decisions is the only way to live to do other wise is to abrogate all responsibility for your actions. Would you really ostracise some someone, for instance, at the behest of your church or would you make your own value judgement? At some point you must be responsible for what you do if not then you allow someone else to tell you how to live your live. Take guidance if you will but it always come back to the individual or will you some day be standing in front of your creator saying but he told me to do it I did not make my own decision?
Something is wrong with this dialogue.

You are mixing what I think you termed “the simplest way of life with “the only way to live and making it even more confusing by commenting on “responsibility. No same ting man. Taking responsibility is seldom the simplest way.



gmc;1476631 wrote: So who makes yours for you?
I make all of my own decisions but I sometimes envy the orthodox Jew, the Mormon, the Jehova's Witness, the aboriginal, and the traditional African - because theirs is the simplest way.

Mark Aspam;1476635 wrote: 1. Why would you assume that I was unaware of that? The Wikipedia article is excellent, but I don't find much there that I wasn't aware of. Catholic high school students study Church history, which certainly includes the reformation and counter-reformation, for an entire school year, so I probably knew much more about it than you did at that age. (ADDED LATER: In fact, my term paper was on pope Alexander VI (Rodrigo Borgia), one of the worst popes of all time, and I think that I got an "A" on the paper, but that was SIXTY years ago, so I'm not sure!)

For me, PERSONALLY, it just comes down to what I stated previously, a choice between sinful "reformers" (the nun-chasing Luther being probably the sleaziest) or the sinless Christ. I'm not trying to convert anyone.

2. As for the rest, I'm not sure who/what you're referring to here. Who are "these people"?

But as I keep saying, it's way off the topic of the thread.


It stemmed from a question you asked

Why do you think that I - and the other billion - shouldn't be Catholic and what do you think that I/we should be instead? This should be good.






Didn't really think you didn't know but it seemed an odd question to ask. I could give you a list of reasons where Catholics get it "wrong" starting with the breaking of the second commandments and taking in the hilarity of transubstantiation and the dispute about the veracity of the holy trinity but I won't not only because I suspect you know as well as I do but as an atheist it would be a bit like arguing over what colour the grass was in Tolkien's middle earth - an intellectual exercise with no real meaning or benefit. It's not a debate I would take seriously and was really just poking a stick in the fire to see what would happen. I grew up in sectarian Scotland I know people who hate catholics but haven't the foggiest idea where it all comes from and don't really care either which I find rather sad. If you want to be a bigot at least do it from a standpoint of knowledge

posted by high threshold

Something is wrong with this dialogue.

You are mixing what I think you termed “the simplest way of life with “the only way to live and making it even more confusing by commenting on “responsibility. No same ting man. Taking responsibility is seldom the simplest way.




the only thing that is wrong is you seem to expect me to try and persuade you to agree with me.

Agree or disagree with me as you choose I don't actually have an agenda I just enjoy discussing these things.

To me making your own decisions is the only way to live to do other wise is to abrogate all responsibility for your actions.




Like I said you don't have to agree with me that's what I think, you re responsible for what you do in life at the end of the day you can't blame other people for decisions that you make. It may be hard but it is also very simple. Are you your own man or what? can't say I envy envy the orthodox Jew, the Mormon, the Jehova's Witness, the aboriginal, and the traditional African, protestant, catholic, muslim they dance to somebody else's tune and think they are calling the time. Just made that analogy up hope it works.

gmc;1476685 wrote: It stemmed from a question you asked



Didn't really think you didn't know but it seemed an odd question to ask. I could give you a list of reasons where Catholics get it "wrong" starting with the breaking of the second commandments and taking in the hilarity of transubstantiation and the dispute about the veracity of the holy trinity but I won't not only because I suspect you know as well as I do but as an atheist it would be a bit like arguing over what colour the grass was in Tolkien's middle earth - an intellectual exercise with no real meaning or benefit. It's not a debate I would take seriously and was really just poking a stick in the fire to see what would happen. I grew up in sectarian Scotland I know people who hate catholics but haven't the foggiest idea where it all comes from and don't really care either which I find rather sad. If you want to be a bigot at least do it from a standpoint of knowledge

posted by high threshold



the only thing that is wrong is you seem to expect me to try and persuade you to agree with me.



Like I said you don't have to agree with me that's what I think, you re responsible for what you do in life at the end of the day you can't blame other people for decisions that you make. It may be hard but it is also very simple. Are you your own man or what? can't say I envy envy the orthodox Jew, the Mormon, the Jehova's Witness, the aboriginal, and the traditional African, protestant, catholic, muslim they dance to somebody else's tune and think they are calling the time. Just made that analogy up hope it works.


Are you certain you're not Greek?

gmc;1476587 wrote:

Followers of religion have to live in fear of what will happen if they start to question their faith or wonder if they are being told the "right" thing by their priest it's like living with a night terror that's always there waiting to pounce. I don't believe in evil either it's another construct to keep control - if you question religious belief you must be being influenced by satan therefore you are evil and should not be listened to. It also conveniently explains away behaviours we just find incomprehensible.


Part of my Mental Health condition means that I have to cope with this sort of thing every day. It's called Paranoia.

. It's not a debate I would take seriously and was really just poking a stick in the fire to see what would happen. I grew up in sectarian Scotland I know people who hate catholics but haven't the foggiest idea where it all comes from and don't really care either which I find rather sad. If you want to be a bigot at least do it from a standpoint of knowledge




To mark aspam---My apologies just realised that could be read in a way not intended I did not mean to imply you were a bigot. I was actually thinking of all the Orangemen that take part in the annual marches near where I live most of them really don't think about it very deeply.