EU - In or Out - Straw Poll

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu May 26, 2016 7:04 am

When the EEC was started, international trade was physically restricted by distance & limited communications. Nowadays we have this new techy thing called the Internet, where anyone is capable of forging their own international Trade Deals via eBay or Amazon, for example from anywhere in the world, and can even have next day deliveries. In the early days of the EEC this simply was not possible. The EEC was purely meant for Trade. It was never intended to be a Federal Europe (at least not overtly). My Grandfather was always vehemently against the EEC, as he predicted exactly what it has become - and I thought he was paranoid.

Now we have the latest revelation that the U-Turn on the Tampon Tax has been overturned by Brussels, telling the UK Government that they HAVE to charge it after all. We have no say in the matter. Our taxes are determined by the EU. Our Membership Subscriptions go to subsidise all the other EU States, as well as to fund other ones to such as Turkey to help them enter the Union.

Take the latest problems with Tate & Lyle, and the EU imposing Sugar Beet quotas in order to favour France. These are just events that have been happening in the past few weeks. This has been a steady ongoing thing since the EEC began to evolve into the EU, and is likely to continue to do so until it becomes the USE. We are most definitely being USEd.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Thu May 26, 2016 2:58 pm

Well said FourPart.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:26 am

I saw this analogy on FaceBook which I felt summed it up quite nicely

I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed.

What a beauty of a bird feeder it was, as I filled it lovingly with seed.

Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and

easily accessible food.

But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table,

and next to the barbecue.

Then came the ****. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the table ... everywhere!

Then some of the birds turned mean. They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket.

And others birds were boisterous and loud. They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at

all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.

After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. So I took down the

bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down

the many nests they had built all over the patio.

Soon, the back yard was like it used to be ..... quiet, serene....

and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.

Now let's see......

Our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care and free education, and allows anyone born here to be an automatic citizen.

Then the illegals came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for

free services; small apartments are housing 5 families; you have to wait 6 hours to be seen

by an emergency room doctor; your child's second grade class is behind other schools because

over half the class doesn't speak English.

Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to 'press one ' to hear my bank

talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than ours are squawking and screaming

in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties.

Just my opinion, but maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.

If you agree, pass it on; if not,

just continue cleaning up the ****!

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:44 am

Love it...

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:18 am

Yes FourPart......all very emotional and chauvinistic, but we are talking about the future, not the past.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:53 am

So, they all shout, let's make Britain 'Great' again :rolleyes:

Yeah, whatever, rose tinted spectacles the lot of them. When were we Great pray tell??

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:59 am

Where did you come from ?

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:03 pm

Bruv;1496754 wrote: Where did you come from ?

No idea but I voted in this poll ages ago lol

Just fed up after watching a Leave broadcast earlier today, sick of shouty people so I thought I'd be one too for a minute or two :wah:

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:18 pm

I have tried to find the campaign video broadcast earlier tonight.

They are still blustering on about the 350 million pounds that has been proved to be wrong, and the split screen sequence where an old dear sits in a In Europe A & E at the same time as a Out of Europe, it looks like outside Europe they will be able to do miracles.

Nearly threw something at my TV.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:32 pm

Bruv;1496760 wrote: I have tried to find the campaign video broadcast earlier tonight.

They are still blustering on about the 350 million pounds that has been proved to be wrong, and the split screen sequence where an old dear sits in a In Europe A & E at the same time as a Out of Europe, it looks like outside Europe they will be able to do miracles.

Nearly threw something at my TV.

I was watching the News online, it could have been ITV or BBC as I watched both lol I may well have clicked on something I found, maybe it wasn't actually broadcast this evening but I had been discussing voting with my eldest lad, trying to convince him he simply has to go and vote. The lies that were being spewed forth caused me to close the tab in annoyance.

I used to like Boris. Nicola Sturgeon is so far the best person making sense.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:51 pm

I would vote for her.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:44 pm

I watched Question Time on i-Player when I got home. The whole thing was a shambles. I can't stand Eddie Izzard at the best of times, but his behaviour in favour of Remain was so atrocious that it probably swung some Undecideds in favour of Brexit. He even got yelled at by one of the audience members to Shut Up (and the audience member got a huge round of applause for doing so).

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:28 am

I'm not a fan of Eddy Izzard - I am aware of his efforts for charity and respect him for that, but that's as far as it goes for me. I did see Question Time on BBC 1 last night, and found it very interesting, except for the loud-mouth interruptions by Izzard. I did notice how many people still seem to be fooled by the various rantings of the 'In' brigade. Nigel Farage seemed to hold his own and made some sensible comments. Oops, thunder and lightning so I'll switch off !

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:37 am

FourPart;1496746 wrote: I saw this analogy on FaceBook which I felt summed it up quite nicely

But, sadly, nothing to do with real life.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:51 am

I personally like Izzard, but he was obnoxious last night and didn't do the remain side any favours.

I am finding that there knobs on both sides and both sides are saying things I agree with, I am still uncertain of the answer, I will choose the least disagreeable which my brain still tells me is remain.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:15 pm

Just for those who are still considering which way to go......In or Out

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:59 pm

Bruv;1496799 wrote: Just for those who are still considering which way to go......In or Out

Not surprisingly I came as 92% OUT.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:10 am

posted by betty boop

I used to like Boris. Nicola Sturgeon is so far the best person making sense.

I watched the itv election debate for a while before turning over - six protagonists are too many to allow proper discussion just when someone is getting pinned down on an issue they switch and most were more interested in childish point scoting. Boris johnston against nicola sturgeon would have been good with boris not being able to wriggle out of the questions so readily. A public schoolboy versus a wee wifie from a glasgow housing scheme I think she would have nmade mincemeat of him.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:10 am

gmc;1496832 wrote:

I watched the itv election debate for a while before turning over - six protagonists are too many to allow proper discussion just when someone is getting pinned down on an issue they switch and most were more interested in childish point scoting. Boris johnston against nicola sturgeon would have been good with boris not being able to wriggle out of the questions so readily. A public schoolboy versus a wee wifie from a glasgow housing scheme I think she would have nmade mincemeat of him.

There were too many yes, it did resemble a night down the pub with alcohol fueled idiots ranting at one another. Had I been in the pub witnessing such a thing I would have gone home for an early night. I switched off mentally whilst watching it in the end.

No issues have been made clear by any of them, I'm kind of sick of the immigration excuse now, the figures do not add up, the most useful and funniest show so far regarding the debate has been Jack Dee's Helpdesk :wah:

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:16 am

Bruv;1496780 wrote: I personally like Izzard, but he was obnoxious last night and didn't do the remain side any favours.

I am finding that there knobs on both sides and both sides are saying things I agree with, I am still uncertain of the answer, I will choose the least disagreeable which my brain still tells me is remain.

He didn't help at all, lowered himself down to Farage's level which Farage just loved.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:06 am

The most compelling argument for leaving for me has been the question "If this was a vote to join now, would you want to?"

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:54 am

Bruv;1496836 wrote: The most compelling argument for leaving for me has been the question "If this was a vote to join now, would you want to?"

But that's just not relevant.

We've had forty years of disentangling our commercial ties to our old trading partners (the Commonwealth) and making them interlink with the EU - we're just not in the position and cannot think as though we are outside of the EU.

Given that we are in, do we want to leave - that is the one and only question.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:21 am

OK Bryn I know that.......but what if the question was to join now ?

I am almost 99% sure I am voting remain, but just for a bit of fun, and knowing what I know now, I wouldn't join, and I am no little Englander

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:41 am

Well I refuse to be put off by the panic doom and gloom from the various 'remain' squads. I have given the matter a great deal of thought, and weighed up the pros and cons for each side and I have categorically decided that I would feel happier and a tad safer if we left Europe. There is absolutely no reason why the UK cannot make her own way in the world - she did before EEC. It would be nice to get control of our own destiny back, to have our identity back, and to have some control over who we allow to live in our country by creating a points system like Australia and Canada. At present we have to let migrants in to our over-crowded country and there is very little checking done, so there is bound to be quite a considerable number of criminals moving into the UK. At least with a points system in place, migration will be much more selective. I will vote to leave. We are the 5th highest economy in the world, and the 2nd highest economy in Europe, so it's no wonder that Europe doesn't want us to leave. They need us more than we need them.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:52 am

Bruv;1496836 wrote: The most compelling argument for leaving for me has been the question "If this was a vote to join now, would you want to?"

Well let's consider a UK that hadn't joined back in the seventies. Bankrupt, none of the inward investment that resulted from our joining so no nissan, toyota, toshiba, honda, shinetsu, hitachi. A british car industry making crap cars that no one wanted to buy ceasing to exist. none of the economic growth that resulted from the momney spent by the regional development fund so no industrial estates in the north east of england or wales (do you really think a westminster government would invest like that look how they squandered the oil money giving tax cuts to people that din;t need them. ) or scotland. Without accesds to european markets our farming industry might have survived since we all need to eat fishing withoiut access to european markets perhaops in neven bigger decline. we had an opportunity to be founding members and shape the eu that we passed up our politicians hanging to delusions of empire.

I think we'd be on our hands and knees begging to join come to that we almost were in the sixties.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:14 pm

gmc;1496853 wrote: I think we'd be on our hands and knees begging to join come to that we almost were in the sixties.

OK I am back in the game........the remain game.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:31 pm

Why ? Why do you want to stay in Europe and be ruled by an unelected group of bigots ?

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:56 pm

If the EEC had remained the EEC (The Common Market for trade only) and we had not been conned into the crafty development of a Federal Europe, then I would have been perfectly happy to stay in Europe. It was not intended to be political at the start, but they craftily worked it into the political state that it is now.

Brussels make all the laws and they are binding for all countries within the European Community. We HAVE to abide by ALL the new laws that are introduced, and they amount to several hundred each year !! Those few men that are 'the law' in Europe and are in Brussels are unelected and, I understand, cannot be 'kicked out'. They cannot show what happens to all the billions of money that is sent to them by the member countries. What business could get away with that, I wonder? None of those people who make up the committee in Brussels have to worry about paying bills. They live in luxurious properties and are, basically, millionaires enjoying the ride on the 'gravy train'. We can be over-ruled at any time over anything. We have no control. We are told to jump and we ask how high. We are being laughed at.

When Cameron went over to try to get certain things changed and have a better 'deal' for the UK, what did they do ? Gave nothing and basically laughed at us. Do we really want to be ruled like that ? We are a nondescript country as far as Europe is concerned, but we do have our uses and that is why they don't really want us to leave, because other countries may start getting itchy feet if we go and this would accelerate the collapse of an already stumbling European Community. I believe it will only be a matter of time and the European Community will finally collapse.

Let's face it, they've given it a reasonable 'go' and it just hasn't worked as they had hoped it would. It would have been far better if they had left it as a trading Common Market and not make it a Federal Europe, in a roundabout manner, trying to 'rule the world'.

I believe we would be far better off in the long run if we got out of Europe and got our identity back. It will take time to sort it out and no doubt there will be more austerity to suffer, but we will have control back and be able to restrict immigration to a sensible level with a points system, and we will be master of our own destiny. The millions we pay Europe at the moment, each week, will be channeled to our most needy areas like NHS, Police and Emergency, and even our armed forces.

It is pathetic that we have two new huge aircraft carriers, but no aircraft, so what good are they doing ? It was a stupid idea to sell our Harriers to America for a pittance. What the hell was Cameron thinking about ? Surely somebody in the Naval hierarchy must have warned him, advised him to hang on to them ? But no, we have to wait till 2020 + to get some planes for our new aircraft carriers! There is no sense in it ! At the moment we have, virtually, a sterile navy so let's hope that our navy is not required to dash down to the Falklands to fend off a take-over bid from Argentina. Our navy is in the Mediterranean at the moment rescuing migrants out of the water, from capsized inflatables. They won't be very quick to respond to any threat down in the South Atlantic !

With regard to the remain/leave question, I cannot see any benefit in staying in Europe, except maybe grant money (which is part of the 'pay-back' on our financial contribution to Europe - a fraction of the £45 million or so we pay them per day). Possibly also the facility of a 'last resort' legal appeal to the European Court. But I can't think of any other benefit in remaining in the European Community, that we won't be able to deal with ourselves, once we are out of Europe.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:50 am

G#Gill;1496890 wrote: Why ? Why do you want to stay in Europe and be ruled by an unelected group of bigots ?

We are ruled by a government most people in this country actually voted against and whose policies have been completely rejected by voters in scotland. Lectures about being ruled by an unelected group opf bigots rather fall on on deaf ears. A country ruled by the likes of boris johnston and nigel farage would be a nightmare. At the referendum debate johnston tried to bring up the possibility of a second scottish referendum a classic debating tactic or trying to change the subject and attack one of the speakers. It failed miserably. If england lurches to the right (have a look at ukips policies) amnd thos of the leave campaign and we se the destruction of workers trights and the privatisation of the NHS I suspect tyhe clamour for a second referendum will become deafening. I do know spome UKIP supporters indeed some tories as well. Not a full bag of sweeties any of thm.

With regard to the remain/leave question, I cannot see any benefit in staying in Europe, except maybe grant money (which is part of the 'pay-back' on our financial contribution to Europe - a fraction of the £45 million or so we pay them per day). Possibly also the facility of a 'last resort' legal appeal to the European Court. But I can't think of any other benefit in remaining in the European Community, that we won't be able to deal with ourselves, once we are out of Europe.

Then you haven't really thought about it. Comapnies are already planning to shift production to counties within the EU thanks (tata steel to name but one) to opting out of the soicial contract it's much cheaper to lay off british workers than european.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:03 am

G#Gill;1496890 wrote: Why ? Why do you want to stay in Europe and be ruled by an unelected group of bigots ?

I understand the way it works is that the unelected committee you speak of, put forward ideas for debate by the elected section. Only after they have been passed by the various countries elected MEPs does anything become law. Much of these 'Laws' that are complained about are the likes of food labeling. One of the things 'They' are 'Taking away' recently has been our powerful vacuum cleaners, because the dastardly EU are anti Brit...................or could it be something to do with power saving? A green initiative to save the planet, lowering the need on a continental level for more power stations.

And what is this Loss of identity nonsense ? How long have we had a union of nations in the UK ? Go tell the Scots, Welsh or Irish they are losing their identity.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:29 am

G#Gill;1496890 wrote: Why ? Why do you want to stay in Europe and be ruled by an unelected group of bigots ?

The European Parliament is fully elected and are no more bigots that the bunch we elect at home.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:36 am

posted by g gill

It is pathetic that we have two new huge aircraft carriers, but no aircraft, so what good are they doing ? It was a stupid idea to sell our Harriers to America for a pittance. What the hell was Cameron thinking about ? Surely somebody in the Naval hierarchy must have warned him, advised him to hang on to them ? But no, we have to wait till 2020 + to get some planes for our new aircraft carriers! There is no sense in it ! At the moment we have, virtually, a sterile navy so let's hope that our navy is not required to dash down to the Falklands to fend off a take-over bid from Argentina. Our navy is in the Mediterranean at the moment rescuing migrants out of the water, from capsized inflatables. They won't be very quick to respond to any threat down in the South Atlantic !

What on earth has that got to do with the EU? If the argentinians had waited six months maggie would have sold HMS invincible to the australians and there would have been nothing we could have done about it.

posted by bruv

And what is this Loss of identity nonsense ? How long have we had a union of nations in the UK ? Go tell the Scots, Welsh or Irish they are losing their identity.

Not to mention the french, germans, austrians, beligians, dutch ------.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:57 am

G#Gill;1496890 wrote: Why ? Why do you want to stay in Europe and be ruled by an unelected group of bigots ?

They are elected!!

I remain in the remain camp because all I see is bigots calling others bigots whilst spewing forth their crap and lies, God help England if any of them get elected.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:37 am

Betty Boop;1496907 wrote: They are elected!!

I remain in the remain camp because all I see is bigots calling others bigots whilst spewing forth their crap and lies, God help England if any of them get elected.

Maybe we should repatriate all the english back to germany and reclaim the UK for the celts:sneaky:

What kind of name is farage anyway he's the son of immigrant refugees himself foreign troublemaker:sneaky:

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:02 am

Bryn Mawr;1496903 wrote: The European Parliament is fully elected and are no more bigots that the bunch we elect at home.

The European Parliament is elected, yes, you get MEPs from the member countries. I am referring to the Commission which have the 'last say' and can overrule the European Parliament, and do.

G#Gill · Post by **G#Gill** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:11 am

To me, all politicians are absolute rubbish, except for a few you can count on one hand.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:23 am

G#Gill;1496926 wrote: The European Parliament is elected, yes, you get MEPs from the member countries. I am referring to the Commission which have the 'last say' and can overrule the European Parliament, and do.

Are you certain of that? :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

The Council then appoints the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the 28 members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.

The Commission are there to implement the decisions of the Parliament, not the other way round.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:58 am

Bryn Mawr;1496932 wrote: Are you certain of that? :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

The Commission are there to implement the decisions of the Parliament, not the other way round.

From that link:

Executive power

Before the Treaty of Lisbon came into force, the executive power of the EU was held by the Council: it conferred on the Commission such powers for it to exercise. However, the Council was theoretically allowed to withdraw these powers, exercise them directly, or impose conditions on their use.[42][43] This aspect has been changed by the Treaty of Lisbon, after which the Commission exercises its powers just by virtue of the treaties. Powers are more restricted than most national executives, in part due to the Commission's lack of power over areas like foreign policy – that power is held by the European Council, which some analysts have described as another executive.[44]

Considering that under the Lisbon Treaty the European Council has become a formal institution with the power of appointing the Commission, it could be said that the two bodies hold the executive power of the EU (the European Council also holds individual national executive powers). However, it is the Commission that currently holds executive powers over the European Union.[44][45] The governmental powers of the Commission have been such that some such as former Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt have suggested changing its name to the "European Government", calling the present name of the Commission "ridiculous".[46]

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:13 pm

Who can any of us trust ?

Today Gove gave us how the EU fishing policy destroyed the business started by his grandfather and continued by his father in Aberdeen.

Now saint Geldof tells us ........

"Here are the facts about fishing. One, Britain makes more money than any other country in Europe from fishing. Two, Britain has the second largest quota for fish in Europe after Denmark. Three, Britain has the third largest landings." During a stunt on the Thames today. HERE

I thought it was common knowledge that our continental cousins were stealing our fish and impoverishing our fishermen.

Is The Truth just a point of view ?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:05 am

I think a lot of people are going toi vote to leave over things that have nothing to do with the eu but rather our own governments. Tory and labour both ruined our state pensions gordon brown siungle handedly destroyed occupational pension schemes, labour started privatising the NHS the leave group keep talking about how eu regulation stifles our comoetituivemness but are unable to actually give an example. Former political wankers like brown and darling are trotted out as if they have some kind of unique insoght. There is no mention oif what happens to the hundreds of thousands of people living and working in europe - do we really want all the expat penioners in spain to come back pushing up house prices and putting more strain on the NHS? Will foreigners still be able to but and sell property in europe?

I thought it was common knowledge that our continental cousins were stealing our fish and impoverishing our fishermen.

remember the cod wars? If we can't export our fish to europe places like lochinver and kinlochbervie will cease to exist as viable towns. It works both ways if we don;t let others fish our waters they will mvery soon stop us fishing theirs.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:19 pm

I am bumping, they can't touch you for it.

Here it is Saint......that British Poll.

Post by **Betty Boop** » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:28 am

The two polling stations I visited today have been busier than usual. Lots of people voting for the first time ever, one a man in his mid fifties who had no clue what to do! Quite shocking

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:52 pm

Cornwall votes for Brexit then issues plea to keep EU funding | Home News | News | The Independent

Cornwall votes for Brexit then issues plea to keep EU funding

I think a lot of leave voters are in for a shock when they real;ise thin gs will noty be as good as promised. Most of the things people complain about had nothimng tio do with the EU.