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Yesterday (Thanksgiving Day) I was listening to my favorite talk radio station. On one show, Michael Medved gave a 3-hour prerecorded lecture on the many ways God has intervened in American history to steer it in the way He wished it to go to fulfill His Plan. In my layman's opinion - trying not to put too fine a point on it - that's crap. He sounded like one of those conspiracy theorists, only on the side of Good. :yh_angel



Somebody help me out here. How can we possibly have Holy Intervention, God's Will in specific individual circumstances, etc. and still claim free will? If we don't have free will, what's the point in trying to be good?



If God can allow us free will until our free will doesn't match up with His Will, isn't that just like the gov't allowing us to "own" our land until it finds a better, more lucrative use for it, then takes it via imminent domain?

Thanks Dear for introducing such a nice topic for discussion.

This point can be easily explained by the theory of Karma as explained by God Himself (Krishna) to Arjuna in the battlefield of Kurushetra. I will soon post the details.

I don't believe in an interventionist god, you cannot petition the lord with prayer, but instant kharma's gonna get you.

Galbally wrote: I don't believe in an interventionist god, you cannot petition the lord with prayer, but instant kharma's gonna get you.


"Interventionist God", yet another name for God. How many names people will give to God?

Petition does not fit in the concept of Prayer. But a devotee can force the God to come to him in his need. There are many such instances in Hindu Mythology where God came to his devotees to help them when they needed Him.

Galbally wrote: I don't believe in an interventionist god, you cannot petition the lord with prayer, but instant kharma's gonna get you.
:wah: Oh, I did hear the music when I read that!

I do believe in an interventionist God, who answers prayer. Since I have seen it take place many times, I know that it is real.

The concept of Free Will can be defined many ways. I will await Gupta's response before responding.

AC, many speakers, I assume this might have been an evangelical speaker, do like to illustrate historical events with with Divine Intervention. Yes, it is a twist on the Conspiracy Theories, and gives a bad rep to many good evenagelicals. (of which I am one)

I think there is a god, but he doesn't reveal himself in human affairs. I find the buddust/hindu/kharmic philosophy interesting and pleasant, but again it seems that a philiosophy that basically asks you to accept all and question nothing is too passive for me, the universe is far too interesting to just focus on your own happiness.

My 2 cents:



I think if you are in-tune with the "Holy spirit" you can receive divine intervention in your decisions. This still leaves you with free will.

I think we all can hear a whisper if we listen whether you are religious or not. I believe it is there for all of us. I believe our founding fathers were in tune to this energy. I also believe most of our greatest discoveries were from this intervention. I think when the spirit was ready for man to have new technology it was shown to the person who "Tuned In". Now how man used(s) it is another matter as we do have "Free Will" and some will use it in bad ways and some in good ways.

Free will is choice. We are not puppets on strings.

The choice is not between God's will and "our" will. It is a choice of obedience to God. To not obey God's will is disobedience. All the Bible stories relate to God's blessing on those who obey his commands.

To people who question whether we have free will I would say this, if you went out and horribly murdered someone, do you think god would stop you? No. You might argue that "well he must have put the idea in my head" well, fine, if thats the case then everything we do is nothing to do with us at all and the idea of human morality is pointless. Also, if thats the case, why would a god create me, a being who questions him in the first place, but I wouldn't be questioning him myself, he would be questioning his own existence through me, this argument very quickly becomes a non-sequiter.

To me its obvious that god does not intervene at any point, that if he has an intrinsic morality it is vastly different from any human idea of that concept, and that in this life at least, he expects us to look after ourselves.

Galbally wrote: he expects us to look after ourselves.


He says He will be with us always.

We are charged to love one another. We are to care for each other.........

SOJOURNER wrote: He says He will be with us always.

We are charged to love one another. We are to care for each other.........


We should care for each other, I think Jesus got that right, but to be able to care for others, you also have to make sure you are alive in the first place. The earth is a nice and bountiful place, but dinner doesn't fall into your lap, unless of course you can afford servants.

Accountable wrote: Yesterday (Thanksgiving Day) I was listening to my favorite talk radio station. On one show, Michael Medved gave a 3-hour prerecorded lecture on the many ways God has intervened in American history to steer it in the way He wished it to go to fulfill His Plan. In my layman's opinion - trying not to put too fine a point on it - that's crap. He sounded like one of those conspiracy theorists, only on the side of Good. :yh_angel



Somebody help me out here. How can we possibly have Holy Intervention, God's Will in specific individual circumstances, etc. and still claim free will? If we don't have free will, what's the point in trying to be good?



If God can allow us free will until our free will doesn't match up with His Will, isn't that just like the gov't allowing us to "own" our land until it finds a better, more lucrative use for it, then takes it via imminent domain?


Ooooo I rarely get into religion but here is my take, I don't believe in any spiritual intervention. We are humans we control what we can for better or worse and everything else is a series of events affected by outside uncontrollable sources, other people, weather, timing, health etc. Why don't I believe because I have seen believers who have lost everything from marriages to life and there was praying endless praying and no holy being intervened.

minks wrote: Why don't I believe because I have seen believers who have lost everything from marriages to life and there was praying endless praying and no holy being intervened.


In the Lord's prayer we are taught to pray "Thy will be done". Not yours, not mine, but HIS......

If we pray for what "we" want and we do not get that particular answer, are we not saying that our way is the better way?

Should we not pray to God and ask that He grant us the ability to live in His will with faith?

SOJOURNER wrote: In the Lord's prayer we are taught to pray "Thy will be done". Not yours, not mine, but HIS......

If we pray for what "we" want and we do not get that particular answer, are we not saying that our way is the better way?

Should we not pray to God and ask that He grant us the ability to live in His will with faith?


Yes, but who decides what God's will is? I get confused when devout Christians extort me to follow the example of Christ when, of course they still quite happily support War in general, the death penalty, the judgement of people's sexual morality, the commercialization of everything up to and including God, and all the rest, happily I am not a religious man so these contradictions don't seem to bother me, but it seems to me that the only people who believe in and live Christ's basic teachings are the Hamish.

How do people sqaure the circle of teachings such as "Thou Shalt not Kill", "Do not judge lest yourselves be judged", "Turn the other cheek". From my point of view modern Christianity is almost completely removed from the fundamentals of the new testament.

I for one accept that God does at times intervene in situations. Miracles I have both seen and experiences.

However, one must remember God has never promised us an easy ride. He dod promise to be there for us if we get into trouble and help us through it. I've never been disappointed. I have lived most of my life relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit and can look back and see the hand of God.

No, I have not had a easy ride but God has aways been there.

Shalom

Ted:-6

SOJOURNER wrote: In the Lord's prayer we are taught to pray "Thy will be done". Not yours, not mine, but HIS......

If we pray for what "we" want and we do not get that particular answer, are we not saying that our way is the better way?

Should we not pray to God and ask that He grant us the ability to live in His will with faith?
I am not sold sorry, 6 years of catholic school, 6 years of public I have not noticed a difference in my life.

I like too many people on the board to persue this topic sorry gang I am going to bow out, my opinions on religion are not pretty.

I accept that my best friends believe, I appreciate they allow me not to, I am Minks they know who they are and we get along just fine. Not a cop out, merely respectfully bowing out.

Galbally wrote: Yes, but who decides what God's will is? I get confused when devout Christians extort me to follow the example of Christ when, of course they still quite happily support War in general, the death penalty, the judgement of people's sexual morality, the commercialization of everything up to and including God, and all the rest, happily I am not a religious man so these contradictions don't seem to bother me, but it seems to me that the only people who believe in and live Christ's basic teachings are the Hamish.

How do people sqaure the circle of teachings such as "Thou Shalt not Kill", "Do not judge lest yourselves be judged", "Turn the other cheek". From my point of view modern Christianity is almost completely removed from the fundamentals of the new testament.


They do not follow a "literal translation". The Bible is the manual on how to live your life. It starts from what is in your heart. Good works do not gain you entrance to heaven, it is the spirit in which you live your life that changes you into a follower. No one is perfect, but ONE. So that is not the goal. It is how you grow in your faith.........

SOJOURNER:-6

I can agree with that. Like anything in life that is worthwhile it is worth working for. With no disrespect to Minks if one is simply waiting for "something" to happen . . .? It may but there is no guarantee. Paul was a persecuter of Christians and he did experience a happening. But such is not the experience of everyone.

Shalom

Ted:-6

Minks:-6

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything but one must remember that others have experienced the world and life differently then you have. It is very hard to deny their experiences any just as it is for someone to deny yours.

Shalom

Ted:-6

I'll have to weigh in later. I choose rather to celebrate my 20th anniversary. It is my will.



My views seem to closely parallel Galbally, though.

As far as I can perceive, religion and the concept "God" were created to exert control over mankind. There isn't a single religion I know of that does not have a heirarchy or structure that places many people subservient to a few.

When religions were first formed, little was known about the world around us. It was easy to rule with fear. Even now, fear and ignorance is used to control the masses as much as we like to think that we are more intelligent now.

On the other hand, I have come to a conclusion that thought must have as much substance as light. Backed up with a strong belief, whether good or evil, it appears to have an influence on its subject. This would be how 'prayers' appear to be answered. Teh more people that pray the same way, the more thoughts are radiated. I have yet to attempt to understand how this would work, but it would involve particle physics. And is this any more fantastical than the idea of a superbeing that we call God? We do not give ourselves enough credit because the human race has been suppressed for so many aeons, and is stilled suppressed up to this very day.

However we choose to live our lives, we will reap the rewards thereof. Our lives are determined by the decisions we make and our decisions can have consequences for others. Even what you decide to buy in the shops may determine the fate of a poor worker in another part of the world.

We each of us radiate energy. This radiation can be sensed by another person. Commonly, this radiation is called our auras. By this perception,we can determine another person's spiritual alignment.

Oh boy, I got into a major arguement with the Pastor of my church at 16 over this one. :-5 It led to my family leaving the church and I've pretty much never been back in organized religion. There's a very large chasm between organized religion and spirituality.

I believe, to a large extent, that God is like a child with an ant farm. He chooses to sit back and watch the struggles and toils and birth and death and keep His hands off.

That said, I also believe that coincidence is God's way of maintaining His anonymity.

Do I pray? yes. Does God answer? yes, He always does, just sometimes the answer is "no".

I believe that God has a warped sense of humor and sometimes likes to give His ant farm a twirl just to see what happens.

I also believe that God wants the best for me, but is willing to let me stumble and fall until I ask Him to help.

SOJOURNER wrote: They do not follow a "literal translation". The Bible is the manual on how to live your life. It starts from what is in your heart. Good works do not gain you entrance to heaven, it is the spirit in which you live your life that changes you into a follower. No one is perfect, but ONE. So that is not the goal. It is how you grow in your faith.........


No its not, according to the Christian tradition (including Catholicism) the Bible is the word of God, its not a lifestyle manual. The New Testament is the covenant made by God through his son Jesus Christ who was made man. In the New Testament Jesus Christ specifically states that it is wrong under any circumstances for Christians to kill for any reason,.........any reason, including self defence. Therefore if you are a Christian, truly, then you cannot kill other people, full stop. I don't see how the Bible can be "interpreted" when it poses difficult moral concepts, and at the same time taken completely literally about things like evolution and creation etc. It is just complete hypocrisry as usual.

Galbally wrote: No its not, according to the Christian tradition (including Catholicism) the Bible is the word of God, its not a lifestyle manual. The New Testament is the covenant made by God through his son Jesus Christ who was made man. In the New Testament Jesus Christ specifically states that it is wrong under any circumstances for Christians to kill for any reason,.........any reason, including self defence. Therefore if you are a Christian, truly, then you cannot kill other people, full stop. I don't see how the Bible can be "interpreted" when it poses difficult moral concepts, and at the same time taken completely literally about things like evolution and creation etc. It is just complete hypocrisry as usual.


The problems with interpreting the Bible is the reason there are so many Christian denominations.

OpenMind wrote: The problems with interpreting the Bible is the reason there are so many Christian denominations.


No, the problem is that most Christians seem to have no idea of the basic message of Jesus Christ. I respect people of faith, as I have none, but I cannot stand hypocrisy and Christians are full of it. God, I'm getting actually riled up about something, actually I am going to read the Bible again (I have the New American Catholic Translation) and I will see if what I am saying is being unfair to people here.

Galbally wrote: No, the problem is that most Christians seem to have no idea of the basic message of Jesus Christ. I respect people of faith, as I have none, but I cannot stand hypocrisy and Christians are full of it. God, I'm getting actually riled up about something, actually I am going to read the Bible again (I have the New American Catholic Translation) and I will see if what I am saying is being unfair to people here.


Then how do you explain the numerous denominations of Christianity if it is not the differences in opinion on how to interpret jesus' message?

I have the King James Version. My copy was given to me when I was 8 years old. I used to read it then, and still find myself picking it up every now and again now. Although I am not a serving Christian myself (I was christened by the C of E).

Well there are lots of reasons, the bigest ones are the differences between the Orthodox and the Catholic, which is basically because of a turf war between the bishops of Rome and Constantinople and the differences between the Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking parts of the Roman empire. Then there's Protestantism and Catholicism, which was caused by the corruption of the Roman church, the widespread printing of the Bible in the vernaculars of medieval Europe, and disillusion with local clergy. Then there are the various sects within protestantism which as you have said come from differing interpretations of the Bible (mostly the old testament it seems to me), certain charismatic religious figures like Calvin and Luther, and political expeidancy. And it goes on and on, but as far as I know all Christians profess that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and that as such his word was the word of God, and that what he said in the New Testament has to be taken as the truth. Even Catholics can't worm their way out of that (btw, I am an Irish Catholic). I can understand how you could interpret certain parts of the bible in different ways, but not the basic techings of Jesus, to me they seem fairly black and white.

Galbally wrote: Well there are lots of reasons, the bigest ones are the differences between the Orthodox and the Catholic, which is basically because of a turf war between the bishops of Rome and Constantinople and the differences between the Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking parts of the Roman empire. Then there's Protestantism and Catholicism, which was caused by the corruption of the Roman church, the widespread printing of the Bible in the vernaculars of medieval Europe, and disillusion with local clergy. Then there are the various sects within protestantism which as you have said come from differing interpretations of the Bible (mostly the old testament it seems to me), certain charismatic religious figures like Calvin and Luther, and political expeidancy. And it goes on and on, but as far as I know all Christians profess that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and that as such his word was the word of God, and that what he said in the New Testament has to be taken as the truth. Even Catholics can't worm their way out of that (btw, I am an Irish Catholic). I can understand how you could interpret certain parts of the bible in different ways, but not the basic techings of Jesus, to me they seem fairly black and white.


I agree with what you say about the body of Jesus' teachings, at least where he was speaking and preaching plainly and not in parables. It seems though that you are saying that the majority of the different denominations were caused by demographic and political divisions. Today, however, there are far more denominations. More than I can name. Some are splinter groups, others have no affiliation with the original church. Some we know are a fraudulent means for the ministers to make money although I personally tend not to include these money spinners as Christian organisations.

The type of intervention I'm referring to is deliberately placing a person or opportunity in one's life at an opportune time so as to set up a specific situation. Meeting one's soul-mate, for instance; or as the radio guy suggested, killing Thomas Jefferson and John Adams on July 4, 1826 or Teddy Roosevelt before WWII (if I understood that second one right).



I don't mean intervention at one's request, I mean intervening so as to manipulate a situation to accomplish a grand plan. Any intervention of this type - Any! - means free will does not and cannot exist.

Galbally wrote: In the New Testament Jesus Christ specifically states that it is wrong under any circumstances for Christians to kill for any reason,.........any reason, including self defence. Therefore if you are a Christian, truly, then you cannot kill other people, full stop. .


Please cite Book, chapter and verse where this is so stated.

Then, lets talk.

My single point is, if God really didnt care about our free will so much, then why does he go to such great lengths to convince us whats right to do? If we didnt have free will, he could just arbitrarily make us do exactly what he wants.
Before Ted jumps in and takes us into a fact/fiction direction, , what do you think of this guy's assertion that the US is a centerpiece of God's Grand Plan?

Rubbish

Shalom

Ted:-6

Galbally wrote:

PostedNo its not, according to the Christian tradition (including Catholicism) the Bible is the word of God, its not a lifestyle manual. The New Testament is the covenant made by God through his son Jesus Christ who was made man. In the New Testament Jesus Christ specifically states that it is wrong under any circumstances for Christians to kill for any reason,.........any reason, including self defence. Therefore if you are a Christian, truly, then you cannot kill other people, full stop. I don't see how the Bible can be "interpreted" when it poses difficult moral concepts, and at the same time taken completely literally about things like evolution and creation etc. It is just complete hypocrisry as usual.


This was Posted Today at 04:46 PM With no reply from Galbally:



Quote farider:

Show me exactly where it says that christians are not allowed to kill for any reason under any circumstances?



Here are a few that say different





The first mention of the appropriate punishment for a murder is in Genesis 4:11-15."And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;...a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him." (KJV)



Is that not DEATH?????????



or







The first mention of capital punishment as a penalty for murder is in Genesis 9:6:"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." (KJV)



Or how bout this one:

"This day the LORD will deliver you into my hand, and I will strike you down, and cut off your head ... that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel." 1 Samuel 17:46 "Kill every woman." Numbers 31:7 "Kill every little boy." Numbers 31:7



"Kill all the infants and suckling babies." 1 Samuel 15:3

"Joshua killed everyone. He did not leave anyone alive." (Joshua 11:14)

"Devour the nations the lord your god delivers over to you. Show them no pity." Deut. 7:16

"You must completely destroy them; you shall make no peace treaties with them, and show no mercy to them." Deut 2:1

"Utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling baby." 1 Samuel 15:3

"Joshua and the men of Israel had finished slaying them with a very great slaughter, until they were wiped out." Joshua 10:20



Want more???????

Actually BTS has engaged in the usual misuse of sacred scriptures.

Shalom

Ted:-6

posted by accountable

Before Ted jumps in and takes us into a fact/fiction direction, , what do you think of this guy's assertion that the US is a centerpiece of God's Grand Plan?


:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

No offence but only an American would take that seriously. Was he being serious or taking the proverbial?

Sorry I Havn't replied yet, but well I had to go to bed to be honest "thou shall not stay up late" Insominacs, Act IV, Verse 6. I will get the book out and get back to you as I don't dont want to paraphrase God.

Galbally wrote: I don't dont want to paraphrase God.


God has already been paraphrased - He didn't write the Bible, men did. Therefore man's interpretation was placed on God's word.

Annie Mouse wrote: God has already been paraphrased - He didn't write the Bible, men did. Therefore man's interpretation was placed on God's word.


Yes I know that, but I'm working on the assumption that many people believe that the bible is the literal word of god that was divinely inspired and is as such the absolute truth. I don't believe that myself, but many people do, so when in rome.

Galbally wrote: Yes I know that, but I'm working on the assumption that many people believe that the bible is the literal word of god that was divinely inspired and is as such the absolute truth. I don't believe that myself, but many people do, so when in rome.


The Bible is rather like Aesop's fables or Grimm's Fairy Tales, IMHO. It's full of stories and biographies meant to get a particular point across.

Annie Mouse wrote: The Bible is rather like Aesop's fables or Grimm's Fairy Tales, IMHO. It's full of stories and biographies meant to get a particular point across.


Yes, thats how most people believe it to be, but there are many people who believe that it is literally the word of God. The Catholic Church describes the entire bible as being a work of humans who were divinely inspired to write the word of god and that all of the bible must be seen in this light. This is why we have so many problems with things like creationsim etc. Anyway, I have to do some research and get the passages relating to Jesus's teaching on killing etc. I don't have time now, as I have to get myself up to Dublin for a Bob Dylan concert, but I shall when I get back.

I believe God has given us free will, but Satan also has his -- and free reign over the world until the final days. God is biding his time with Satan and his armies. We have the free will to walk whichever path we chose, good or evil.

Although, if everything is supposed to be recorded in the Book of Life, is there really such a thing as "free will," if we've already been predestined to chose how we are going to chose?

That's Calvinism, Val. Some Churches have that doctrine, others do not. Man has free will to either accept or reject what is offered in the Bible. God may know it ahead of time, but He does not pick out whom He wants or not. It is up to the individual.

Chons, I never knew what it was called. It is just the way I thought. I didn't know that there is a whole line of thought out there called Calvinism. Learn something new everyday.

gmc wrote: posted by accountable





:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl



No offence but only an American would take that seriously. Was he being serious or taking the proverbial?The prat (I believe that's proper use of the word) went on for THREE HOURS about how God is favoring the USA above other nations. I only listened to the first 15 minutes and a bit of hour #3. He made liberal use of coincidence, similar to the newbie (I forget his name) of the Universal Mind.





Far,

Just to be Devil's Advocate, who's to say the new Jerusalem will be a carbon copy of the old one? Jesus didn't exactly match all the prophesies of the King of the Jews, either.