Let's be honest. Percentage-wise, few people in America really give much of a crap about what's going on in the hallowed halls of politics and power.
This is what we in the media and maybe you in the media-consuming audience tend to forget far too easily: This country is simply jam-packed with millions of people who have no time for, or interest in, politics, or media, or environmental policy, or education, or global issues, or which presidential candidate lied his ass off about which aspect of his military career and which Orange Alert is totally bogus and how many soldiers are dying for what imbecilic war.
It seems hard to believe. But the general rule of thumb is that major cities are slightly more attuned due to aggressive media saturation and how issues tend to make themselves known more urgently, more immediately, whereas Middle America is a scattershot conglomeration of the politically apathetic and the actively disenfranchised, full of people far too busy with their lives and kids and jobs and zoning out on "Fear Factor" and "Monday Night Football" to care about following the elitist, ever dire dramas playing out on the nation's gilded stages.
Most Americans, in other words, have no idea what the hell a Halliburton is. Or a Karl Rove. Or a Donny "Shriveled Soul" Rumsfeld. Or a Lockheed Martin. Or a Carlysle Group. Or have any idea that Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. Or that WMDs were never found. Or that President Bush has taken more vacation time than any president in U.S. history. Or that Jesus thinks Dubya is "sort of a dink." Or where Iraq is on a map.
More:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 100604.DTL
Why Don't Americans Care?
Why Don't Americans Care?
CVX wrote:
Most Americans, in other words, have no idea what the hell a Halliburton is. Or a Karl Rove. Or a Donny "Shriveled Soul" Rumsfeld. Or a Lockheed Martin. Or a Carlysle Group. Or have any idea that Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. Or that WMDs were never found. Or that President Bush has taken more vacation time than any president in U.S. history. Or that Jesus thinks Dubya is "sort of a dink." Or where Iraq is on a map.
I agree that most Americans are in the dark about what is going on politically. They don’t know that Kerry (actually his wife/mother) owns seven multi-million dollar mansions. They don’t know that he is the most liberal senator in congress. They don’t know that he negotiated with our enemy during the Vietnam War. They don’t know about his voting record. They can’t see the harm he is doing to the war effort. They can’t understand the difference between and executive and a legislator. The fact that he voted against our ability to gather intelligence after the first WTC bombing isn’t on their radar. They think that just because no WMD have been discovered they never existed and would never be developed again. They don’t consider the fact that Saddam paid the families of suicide bombers to encourage suicide bombings. They think that you can say wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place and still expect those fighting the war to have the will to win. They don’t know that if the government had gone out to bid it would have taken too long and that Halliburton was the contractor with the ability to get the job done. They haven’t listened to an experienced, competent Secretary of Defense explain the issues. And they probably didn’t observe the President working almost as hard on his vacations as he did while he was at the Whitehouse.
Most Americans, in other words, have no idea what the hell a Halliburton is. Or a Karl Rove. Or a Donny "Shriveled Soul" Rumsfeld. Or a Lockheed Martin. Or a Carlysle Group. Or have any idea that Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. Or that WMDs were never found. Or that President Bush has taken more vacation time than any president in U.S. history. Or that Jesus thinks Dubya is "sort of a dink." Or where Iraq is on a map.
I agree that most Americans are in the dark about what is going on politically. They don’t know that Kerry (actually his wife/mother) owns seven multi-million dollar mansions. They don’t know that he is the most liberal senator in congress. They don’t know that he negotiated with our enemy during the Vietnam War. They don’t know about his voting record. They can’t see the harm he is doing to the war effort. They can’t understand the difference between and executive and a legislator. The fact that he voted against our ability to gather intelligence after the first WTC bombing isn’t on their radar. They think that just because no WMD have been discovered they never existed and would never be developed again. They don’t consider the fact that Saddam paid the families of suicide bombers to encourage suicide bombings. They think that you can say wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place and still expect those fighting the war to have the will to win. They don’t know that if the government had gone out to bid it would have taken too long and that Halliburton was the contractor with the ability to get the job done. They haven’t listened to an experienced, competent Secretary of Defense explain the issues. And they probably didn’t observe the President working almost as hard on his vacations as he did while he was at the Whitehouse.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
Why Don't Americans Care?
They don’t know that he is the most liberal senator in congress. They don’t know that he negotiated with our enemy during the Vietnam War.
So did Nixon, so did Kissinger, I suppose they are traotors as well. sooner or later you have to make peace, even with terrorists, they did it in South Africa, are doing it more or less in Ireland. The Spanish have managed to get control of ETA (don't know the details)
Who exactly do you think you are at war with? It's not the whole middle east its a bunch of nutters who are not representative of their people. It's not a war where you have a clear enemy and you can go in and take them out. What are you going to say if Bush decides to attack Iran or North Korea? Just how much warfare do you want to get involved in
I agree that most Americans are in the dark about what is going on politically. They don’t know that Kerry (actually his wife/mother) owns seven multi-million dollar mansions.
From the Oxford English dictionary
liberal // adj. & n.
adj.
1 given freely; ample, abundant.
2 (often foll. by of) giving freely; generous, not sparing.
3 open-minded, not prejudiced.
4 not strict or rigorous; (of interpretation) not literal.
5 for general broadening of the mind, not professional or technical (liberal studies).
6 a favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform. b (Liberal) Polit. of or characteristic of Liberals or a Liberal Party.
7 Theol. regarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change (liberal Protestant;
Liberal seems to be an insult in America, very strange.
You'll be calling someone who believes in one person one vote a dangerous radical next.
OK so he's rich, so is Bush what's the difference?
Let's be honest. Percentage-wise, few people in America really give much of a crap about what's going on in the hallowed halls of politics and power.
Actually our turn out for general elections is crap as well either because people don't care or because the same numpties get in. Thanks to our electoral system (first past the post) the party in power never has the majority of the votes. Labour and tory both sOI* themselves at the suggestion of proportional representation as it means neither would ever get a full majority.
The US system sems bizarree in some ways, why only two mainstream parties for president, with such a large and diverse country I would have expected there would be a lot more.
So did Nixon, so did Kissinger, I suppose they are traotors as well. sooner or later you have to make peace, even with terrorists, they did it in South Africa, are doing it more or less in Ireland. The Spanish have managed to get control of ETA (don't know the details)
Who exactly do you think you are at war with? It's not the whole middle east its a bunch of nutters who are not representative of their people. It's not a war where you have a clear enemy and you can go in and take them out. What are you going to say if Bush decides to attack Iran or North Korea? Just how much warfare do you want to get involved in
I agree that most Americans are in the dark about what is going on politically. They don’t know that Kerry (actually his wife/mother) owns seven multi-million dollar mansions.
From the Oxford English dictionary
liberal // adj. & n.
adj.
1 given freely; ample, abundant.
2 (often foll. by of) giving freely; generous, not sparing.
3 open-minded, not prejudiced.
4 not strict or rigorous; (of interpretation) not literal.
5 for general broadening of the mind, not professional or technical (liberal studies).
6 a favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate political and social reform. b (Liberal) Polit. of or characteristic of Liberals or a Liberal Party.
7 Theol. regarding many traditional beliefs as dispensable, invalidated by modern thought, or liable to change (liberal Protestant;
Liberal seems to be an insult in America, very strange.
You'll be calling someone who believes in one person one vote a dangerous radical next.
OK so he's rich, so is Bush what's the difference?
Let's be honest. Percentage-wise, few people in America really give much of a crap about what's going on in the hallowed halls of politics and power.
Actually our turn out for general elections is crap as well either because people don't care or because the same numpties get in. Thanks to our electoral system (first past the post) the party in power never has the majority of the votes. Labour and tory both sOI* themselves at the suggestion of proportional representation as it means neither would ever get a full majority.
The US system sems bizarree in some ways, why only two mainstream parties for president, with such a large and diverse country I would have expected there would be a lot more.
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Bill Sikes
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- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Why Don't Americans Care?
gmc wrote: Thanks to our electoral system (first past the post) the party in power never has the majority of the votes.
The Labour Party do at the moment, don't they?
gmc wrote: Labour and tory both sOI* themselves at the suggestion of proportional representation as it means neither would ever get a full majority.
The main problem seems to be blackmail by a minority party wielding
disproportionate influence (compared to the number of people who
voted for them).
gmc wrote: The US system sems bizarree in some ways, why only two mainstream parties for president, with such a large and diverse country
I would have expected there would be a lot more.
I used to like our system with an unelected upper house beholden to
no-one who could vote as they individually felt... however, Benito B. Liar.
seems to have gutted that, and I guess it will be filled eventually (?) with
the sort of rissole-licking toady we see sometimes (?) in the commons, all
kow-towing to their leader of the day.
The Labour Party do at the moment, don't they?
gmc wrote: Labour and tory both sOI* themselves at the suggestion of proportional representation as it means neither would ever get a full majority.
The main problem seems to be blackmail by a minority party wielding
disproportionate influence (compared to the number of people who
voted for them).
gmc wrote: The US system sems bizarree in some ways, why only two mainstream parties for president, with such a large and diverse country
I would have expected there would be a lot more.
I used to like our system with an unelected upper house beholden to
no-one who could vote as they individually felt... however, Benito B. Liar.
seems to have gutted that, and I guess it will be filled eventually (?) with
the sort of rissole-licking toady we see sometimes (?) in the commons, all
kow-towing to their leader of the day.
Why Don't Americans Care?
The Labour Party do at the moment, don't they?
Nope they have around 48% of the vote, Maggie Thatcher had roughly the same percentage throughout her tenure. The percentage shift between the two was only in the order of a few %. Effectively half the population have their votes discounted.
The main problem seems to be blackmail by a minority party wielding
disproportionate influence (compared to the number of people who
voted for them).
Arguement much loved by those who oppose it, over the last twenty-thirty years with PR we would have had coalition governmemnts which might have avoided some of the excesses of both labour and Tory. A minority party will be able to get it's voice heard and it will allow scope for more diverse opinions rather than the current system where they all sing the same tune and toe the party line to stay in power.
Post ww2 PR was imposed on germany and italy because it prevents one party fom gaining too much power with the larger number of seats but less of the popular vote.
It also makes gerrymandering pointless unlike now where both parties are at it.
It might also curtail the present trend towards prime ministerial government which I would contend is undemocratic, unbritish and most definitely not in the ineterests of our democracy. We have always tended towards compromise swinging fronm one extreme to the other is no use. Mind you it;'s quite hard to spot the difference nowadays.
Nope they have around 48% of the vote, Maggie Thatcher had roughly the same percentage throughout her tenure. The percentage shift between the two was only in the order of a few %. Effectively half the population have their votes discounted.
The main problem seems to be blackmail by a minority party wielding
disproportionate influence (compared to the number of people who
voted for them).
Arguement much loved by those who oppose it, over the last twenty-thirty years with PR we would have had coalition governmemnts which might have avoided some of the excesses of both labour and Tory. A minority party will be able to get it's voice heard and it will allow scope for more diverse opinions rather than the current system where they all sing the same tune and toe the party line to stay in power.
Post ww2 PR was imposed on germany and italy because it prevents one party fom gaining too much power with the larger number of seats but less of the popular vote.
It also makes gerrymandering pointless unlike now where both parties are at it.
It might also curtail the present trend towards prime ministerial government which I would contend is undemocratic, unbritish and most definitely not in the ineterests of our democracy. We have always tended towards compromise swinging fronm one extreme to the other is no use. Mind you it;'s quite hard to spot the difference nowadays.
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Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Why Don't Americans Care?
gmc wrote: {percentage of vote} Nope they have around 48% of the vote
Sorry, I thought you were referring to vote in the Commons.
gmc wrote: {disproportionate power} Arguement much loved by those who oppose it, over the last twenty-thirty years
Hmm. Arguments much loved, yes. Valid, IMO, too.
gmc wrote: It might also curtail the present trend towards prime ministerial government which I would contend is undemocratic, unbritish and most definitely not in the ineterests of our democracy.
I agree 100% - however, the trend is only there because politicians actively
go along with it, for a variety of reasons. My views on politicians and their
propensities have been aired in another thread.
Sorry, I thought you were referring to vote in the Commons.
gmc wrote: {disproportionate power} Arguement much loved by those who oppose it, over the last twenty-thirty years
Hmm. Arguments much loved, yes. Valid, IMO, too.
gmc wrote: It might also curtail the present trend towards prime ministerial government which I would contend is undemocratic, unbritish and most definitely not in the ineterests of our democracy.
I agree 100% - however, the trend is only there because politicians actively
go along with it, for a variety of reasons. My views on politicians and their
propensities have been aired in another thread.
Why Don't Americans Care?
Bye Bye American Pie, oh well, we want it all, so thats :driving: what you get...
Everyone has these on their face? TULIPS.
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Suresh Gupta
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- Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:29 pm
Why Don't Americans Care?
CVX wrote: Let's be honest. Percentage-wise, few people in America really give much of a crap about what's going on ................
Then what do Americans worry about?
Then what do Americans worry about?
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Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Why Don't Americans Care?
Paula wrote: Bye Bye American Pie, oh well, we want it all, so thats :driving: what you get...
Paula, I'm confused by your replies in several threads. Please will you include
some context or explanation?
Paula, I'm confused by your replies in several threads. Please will you include
some context or explanation?
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A Karenina
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
Why Don't Americans Care?
Suresh Gupta wrote: Then what do Americans worry about?
Hi Suresh. I think we worry about bills, kids, pop culture, how we look, how much our neighbors own, crime, popularity, and sex.
More importantly, I believe many Americans have been raised to think that freedom is without cost.
Hi Suresh. I think we worry about bills, kids, pop culture, how we look, how much our neighbors own, crime, popularity, and sex.
More importantly, I believe many Americans have been raised to think that freedom is without cost.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
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Suresh Gupta
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Why Don't Americans Care?
A Karenina wrote: Hi Suresh. I think we worry about bills, kids, pop culture, how we look, how much our neighbors own, crime, popularity, and sex.
More importantly, I believe many Americans have been raised to think that freedom is without cost.
How much of these are not of their own making?
More importantly, I believe many Americans have been raised to think that freedom is without cost.
How much of these are not of their own making?
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A Karenina
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Why Don't Americans Care?
Suresh Gupta wrote: How much of these are not of their own making?
Do you mean how many of these things are not under our control? My head is running off in several directions, so I just wanted to understand your question before I tried answering it. Thanks!
Do you mean how many of these things are not under our control? My head is running off in several directions, so I just wanted to understand your question before I tried answering it. Thanks!
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
-
Suresh Gupta
- Posts: 1172
- Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:29 pm
Why Don't Americans Care?
A Karenina wrote: Do you mean how many of these things are not under our control? My head is running off in several directions, so I just wanted to understand your question before I tried answering it. Thanks!
Let us go back to the list - bills, kids, pop culture, how we look, how much our neighbors own, crime, popularity, sex and thinking that freedom is without cost.
Bills are our own making. We can certainly control them.
Why should we care how much our neighbour owns? We should be satisfied with what we have. Envy only brings out bad in ourself.
Kids, we can certainly control but to do that we will have to control ourselves first. Motivation by example, you know.
Pop culture, how it affects us is again under our control.
Worrying about how we look is a human trait. There is nothing wrong in it. The only thing is that we should not over do it, and it is again under our control.
Popularity, under our control, but we will have to work real hard for it.
sex is again under our control.
Crime is something which is not entirely under our control, but we can do our bit to control it as a responsible member of the society.
Lastly, one should never think that freedom comes free. Americans must have realized after 9/11 that how costly freedom is.
Now let me share with you one most important thing which I think Americans should also worry about - their government interfering in peoples' life all over the world thinking that only they know the meaning of democracy, and treating visitors to their country with contempt and sometimes even insulting them.
Let us go back to the list - bills, kids, pop culture, how we look, how much our neighbors own, crime, popularity, sex and thinking that freedom is without cost.
Bills are our own making. We can certainly control them.
Why should we care how much our neighbour owns? We should be satisfied with what we have. Envy only brings out bad in ourself.
Kids, we can certainly control but to do that we will have to control ourselves first. Motivation by example, you know.
Pop culture, how it affects us is again under our control.
Worrying about how we look is a human trait. There is nothing wrong in it. The only thing is that we should not over do it, and it is again under our control.
Popularity, under our control, but we will have to work real hard for it.
sex is again under our control.
Crime is something which is not entirely under our control, but we can do our bit to control it as a responsible member of the society.
Lastly, one should never think that freedom comes free. Americans must have realized after 9/11 that how costly freedom is.
Now let me share with you one most important thing which I think Americans should also worry about - their government interfering in peoples' life all over the world thinking that only they know the meaning of democracy, and treating visitors to their country with contempt and sometimes even insulting them.
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A Karenina
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
Why Don't Americans Care?
Suresh, I agree with your take on the list. 
By the way, this is fairly obvious, but the list stems from conversations with people I know personally. I wonder how different the list would be in another part of the country.
Suresh Gupta wrote: Lastly, one should never think that freedom comes free. Americans must have realized after 9/11 that how costly freedom is.I'm not sure that 9/11 happened because we are free. I can't even say that it happened because of bad foreign policy - that would imply the terrorists had some sort of validity in doing what they did. I can never validate that.
Suresh Gupta wrote: Now let me share with you one most important thing which I think Americans should also worry about - their government interfering in peoples' life all over the world thinking that only they know the meaning of democracy, and treating visitors to their country with contempt and sometimes even insulting them.Ahhh! This is more closely aligned with my own thoughts on the cost of freedom. I have two separate trains of thought on this issue.
First, our whole system is/was set up to allow the people a voice in our own governing. As a majority, we have the ability to determine what America is and does. This only works if we stay in touch with what our elected officials are doing, and if we consistently tell them what we want them to be doing.
How many people do that?
Freedom requires more than just voting in a major election every 4 years. We can't even get the majority of our population to vote, so it's no surprise to me that most of us don't know who our legislators are, what they are doing, and how America treats the rest of the world.
I'm afraid that the only way we will stop taking our freedom for granted is to get very close to losing most of our freedoms. I hope there is a better way, but I don't see it for now.
I don't mean to insult my own people, but when we are barely concerned with governing ourselves, how many will be overly concerned with how we've behaved elsewhere? It's much simpler to accept what the politicians tell us, that we are helping people all over the world...and then we can go back to worrying about how we look, what we own, etc.
Still, there are some who are extremely concerned with what we do here and abroad. I hope they are not overlooked. They are in an extremely difficult position as they face a lot of anger from our own people for their views. Also, it seems to spread across all the conventional party lines, so there is not much of a power base to work from.
Second, Americans are good people. They react with a desire to help people when they see someone in trouble (much of the time, anyway - there are exceptions to everything). There are several instances in which the population is galvanized into action to help another regardless of nationality.
At the same time, our teachers and religious leaders as a rule do not encourage questioning or critical thinking. We are taught to trust in the goodness of people, especially authorities. As we realize that our political leaders are not as good as we would have them be, the reaction is to turn away from them, shun them. It doesn't seem to occur to us to take action and get them out of office or force them to do the job we elected them to do.
It is interesting to me because it seems as though we identify ourselves with our leaders. If our leaders have done bad things, then are we bad as well? Much of the world says they don't like Bush but they do like the American people...yet we ourselves can't seem to separate it like that.
I'm rambling, so I'll end this for now so you and others can talk.
By the way, this is fairly obvious, but the list stems from conversations with people I know personally. I wonder how different the list would be in another part of the country.
Suresh Gupta wrote: Lastly, one should never think that freedom comes free. Americans must have realized after 9/11 that how costly freedom is.I'm not sure that 9/11 happened because we are free. I can't even say that it happened because of bad foreign policy - that would imply the terrorists had some sort of validity in doing what they did. I can never validate that.
Suresh Gupta wrote: Now let me share with you one most important thing which I think Americans should also worry about - their government interfering in peoples' life all over the world thinking that only they know the meaning of democracy, and treating visitors to their country with contempt and sometimes even insulting them.Ahhh! This is more closely aligned with my own thoughts on the cost of freedom. I have two separate trains of thought on this issue.
First, our whole system is/was set up to allow the people a voice in our own governing. As a majority, we have the ability to determine what America is and does. This only works if we stay in touch with what our elected officials are doing, and if we consistently tell them what we want them to be doing.
How many people do that?
Freedom requires more than just voting in a major election every 4 years. We can't even get the majority of our population to vote, so it's no surprise to me that most of us don't know who our legislators are, what they are doing, and how America treats the rest of the world.
I'm afraid that the only way we will stop taking our freedom for granted is to get very close to losing most of our freedoms. I hope there is a better way, but I don't see it for now.
I don't mean to insult my own people, but when we are barely concerned with governing ourselves, how many will be overly concerned with how we've behaved elsewhere? It's much simpler to accept what the politicians tell us, that we are helping people all over the world...and then we can go back to worrying about how we look, what we own, etc.
Still, there are some who are extremely concerned with what we do here and abroad. I hope they are not overlooked. They are in an extremely difficult position as they face a lot of anger from our own people for their views. Also, it seems to spread across all the conventional party lines, so there is not much of a power base to work from.
Second, Americans are good people. They react with a desire to help people when they see someone in trouble (much of the time, anyway - there are exceptions to everything). There are several instances in which the population is galvanized into action to help another regardless of nationality.
At the same time, our teachers and religious leaders as a rule do not encourage questioning or critical thinking. We are taught to trust in the goodness of people, especially authorities. As we realize that our political leaders are not as good as we would have them be, the reaction is to turn away from them, shun them. It doesn't seem to occur to us to take action and get them out of office or force them to do the job we elected them to do.
It is interesting to me because it seems as though we identify ourselves with our leaders. If our leaders have done bad things, then are we bad as well? Much of the world says they don't like Bush but they do like the American people...yet we ourselves can't seem to separate it like that.
I'm rambling, so I'll end this for now so you and others can talk.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
Why Don't Americans Care?
a karenina
More importantly, I believe many Americans have been raised to think that freedom is without cost.
Do you not get much history taught in school? Some of your battles are within living memory. I'm thinking of the civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's so I don't see how you can say it is without cost, surely people know their own history?
It is interesting to me because it seems as though we identify ourselves with our leaders. If our leaders have done bad things, then are we bad as well? Much of the world says they don't like Bush but they do like the American people...yet we ourselves can't seem to separate it like that.
Interesting comment. I find myself being cautious about what I say or rather how I say it as any criticism of US policy seems to be immediately taken as personal and anti american. Like most europeans I separate the government from the people and criticising say the french government does not imply a dislike of french people or making jokes about germans does not imply a dislike of germans, in fact they give as good as they get in return. we have a love hate relationship but at least we have mostly stopped killing each other.
More importantly, I believe many Americans have been raised to think that freedom is without cost.
Do you not get much history taught in school? Some of your battles are within living memory. I'm thinking of the civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's so I don't see how you can say it is without cost, surely people know their own history?
It is interesting to me because it seems as though we identify ourselves with our leaders. If our leaders have done bad things, then are we bad as well? Much of the world says they don't like Bush but they do like the American people...yet we ourselves can't seem to separate it like that.
Interesting comment. I find myself being cautious about what I say or rather how I say it as any criticism of US policy seems to be immediately taken as personal and anti american. Like most europeans I separate the government from the people and criticising say the french government does not imply a dislike of french people or making jokes about germans does not imply a dislike of germans, in fact they give as good as they get in return. we have a love hate relationship but at least we have mostly stopped killing each other.
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A Karenina
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Why Don't Americans Care?
gmc wrote: Do you not get much history taught in school? Some of your battles are within living memory. I'm thinking of the civil rights movement in the 50's and 60's so I don't see how you can say it is without cost, surely people know their own history?
When I was in school, way way back when dirt was young, we really weren't given much history. I had history in my 3rd, 8th, and 10th years only. I'm not sure how much is required these days.
I was taught that the founding fathers "gave" us democracy and freedom. That various wars have been fought to keep it. That God Blesses America. That's about it...There was never an emphasis on being involved, or making the workings of our system understandable. We never explored the depths of what history can teach us, and instead concentrated on dates. Blech!
You can choose to take these types of courses voluntarily as you get older and, of course, in college.
As for the Civil Rights movement, I grew up in the midst of it. It would take a whole 'nother thread to try and explain my experiences with that, and the things I learned (or believe).
I hope that someday we can separate ourselves from government as well you have.
These are just my thoughts on it. I'd be curious to hear what other people think.
When I was in school, way way back when dirt was young, we really weren't given much history. I had history in my 3rd, 8th, and 10th years only. I'm not sure how much is required these days.
I was taught that the founding fathers "gave" us democracy and freedom. That various wars have been fought to keep it. That God Blesses America. That's about it...There was never an emphasis on being involved, or making the workings of our system understandable. We never explored the depths of what history can teach us, and instead concentrated on dates. Blech!
You can choose to take these types of courses voluntarily as you get older and, of course, in college.
As for the Civil Rights movement, I grew up in the midst of it. It would take a whole 'nother thread to try and explain my experiences with that, and the things I learned (or believe).
I hope that someday we can separate ourselves from government as well you have.
These are just my thoughts on it. I'd be curious to hear what other people think.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
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Suresh Gupta
- Posts: 1172
- Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:29 pm
Why Don't Americans Care?
A Karenina wrote: Suresh, I agree with your take on the list.
By the way, this is fairly obvious, but the list stems from conversations with people I know personally. I wonder how different the list would be in another part of the country.
I'm not sure that 9/11 happened because we are free. I can't even say that it happened because of bad foreign policy - that would imply the terrorists had some sort of validity in doing what they did. I can never validate that.
Ahhh! This is more closely aligned with my own thoughts on the cost of freedom. I have two separate trains of thought on this issue.
First, our whole system is/was set up to allow the people a voice in our own governing. As a majority, we have the ability to determine what America is and does. This only works if we stay in touch with what our elected officials are doing, and if we consistently tell them what we want them to be doing.
How many people do that?
Freedom requires more than just voting in a major election every 4 years. We can't even get the majority of our population to vote, so it's no surprise to me that most of us don't know who our legislators are, what they are doing, and how America treats the rest of the world.
I'm afraid that the only way we will stop taking our freedom for granted is to get very close to losing most of our freedoms. I hope there is a better way, but I don't see it for now.
I don't mean to insult my own people, but when we are barely concerned with governing ourselves, how many will be overly concerned with how we've behaved elsewhere? It's much simpler to accept what the politicians tell us, that we are helping people all over the world...and then we can go back to worrying about how we look, what we own, etc.
Still, there are some who are extremely concerned with what we do here and abroad. I hope they are not overlooked. They are in an extremely difficult position as they face a lot of anger from our own people for their views. Also, it seems to spread across all the conventional party lines, so there is not much of a power base to work from.
Second, Americans are good people. They react with a desire to help people when they see someone in trouble (much of the time, anyway - there are exceptions to everything). There are several instances in which the population is galvanized into action to help another regardless of nationality.
At the same time, our teachers and religious leaders as a rule do not encourage questioning or critical thinking. We are taught to trust in the goodness of people, especially authorities. As we realize that our political leaders are not as good as we would have them be, the reaction is to turn away from them, shun them. It doesn't seem to occur to us to take action and get them out of office or force them to do the job we elected them to do.
It is interesting to me because it seems as though we identify ourselves with our leaders. If our leaders have done bad things, then are we bad as well? Much of the world says they don't like Bush but they do like the American people...yet we ourselves can't seem to separate it like that.
I'm rambling, so I'll end this for now so you and others can talk.
No, it was not rambling. It was a very well thought out message. I enjoyed every word of it. Also I am pleasantly surprised to discover that I and You, two people, living so far has common views about the governance of their countries, their leaders, their people (some concerned and some not-concerned), their issues, their worries. Shall we say that world is really small or we have many similarities in these areas. I tend to agree with your President and our PM that USA and India are natural allies. I have saved your message on my hard disk to show it to my friends who are very crtical of US. Thanks.
No, 9/11 did not happen because Americans are free. I Will also not say that US foreign policy is fully responsible for that. But perhaps the intention of what US did in other parts of the world was not properly explained to the people across the world. Terrorists have their own way of interpreting things. But other people should be taken in confidence.
I fully agree that freedom requires more than just voting in a major election. One has to on guard all the time. One should trust the government but blind trust is not good.
In india we believe that Americans are good people. We wish that Indians are also held in the same esteem by American people.
By the way, this is fairly obvious, but the list stems from conversations with people I know personally. I wonder how different the list would be in another part of the country.
I'm not sure that 9/11 happened because we are free. I can't even say that it happened because of bad foreign policy - that would imply the terrorists had some sort of validity in doing what they did. I can never validate that.
Ahhh! This is more closely aligned with my own thoughts on the cost of freedom. I have two separate trains of thought on this issue.
First, our whole system is/was set up to allow the people a voice in our own governing. As a majority, we have the ability to determine what America is and does. This only works if we stay in touch with what our elected officials are doing, and if we consistently tell them what we want them to be doing.
How many people do that?
Freedom requires more than just voting in a major election every 4 years. We can't even get the majority of our population to vote, so it's no surprise to me that most of us don't know who our legislators are, what they are doing, and how America treats the rest of the world.
I'm afraid that the only way we will stop taking our freedom for granted is to get very close to losing most of our freedoms. I hope there is a better way, but I don't see it for now.
I don't mean to insult my own people, but when we are barely concerned with governing ourselves, how many will be overly concerned with how we've behaved elsewhere? It's much simpler to accept what the politicians tell us, that we are helping people all over the world...and then we can go back to worrying about how we look, what we own, etc.
Still, there are some who are extremely concerned with what we do here and abroad. I hope they are not overlooked. They are in an extremely difficult position as they face a lot of anger from our own people for their views. Also, it seems to spread across all the conventional party lines, so there is not much of a power base to work from.
Second, Americans are good people. They react with a desire to help people when they see someone in trouble (much of the time, anyway - there are exceptions to everything). There are several instances in which the population is galvanized into action to help another regardless of nationality.
At the same time, our teachers and religious leaders as a rule do not encourage questioning or critical thinking. We are taught to trust in the goodness of people, especially authorities. As we realize that our political leaders are not as good as we would have them be, the reaction is to turn away from them, shun them. It doesn't seem to occur to us to take action and get them out of office or force them to do the job we elected them to do.
It is interesting to me because it seems as though we identify ourselves with our leaders. If our leaders have done bad things, then are we bad as well? Much of the world says they don't like Bush but they do like the American people...yet we ourselves can't seem to separate it like that.
I'm rambling, so I'll end this for now so you and others can talk.
No, it was not rambling. It was a very well thought out message. I enjoyed every word of it. Also I am pleasantly surprised to discover that I and You, two people, living so far has common views about the governance of their countries, their leaders, their people (some concerned and some not-concerned), their issues, their worries. Shall we say that world is really small or we have many similarities in these areas. I tend to agree with your President and our PM that USA and India are natural allies. I have saved your message on my hard disk to show it to my friends who are very crtical of US. Thanks.
No, 9/11 did not happen because Americans are free. I Will also not say that US foreign policy is fully responsible for that. But perhaps the intention of what US did in other parts of the world was not properly explained to the people across the world. Terrorists have their own way of interpreting things. But other people should be taken in confidence.
I fully agree that freedom requires more than just voting in a major election. One has to on guard all the time. One should trust the government but blind trust is not good.
In india we believe that Americans are good people. We wish that Indians are also held in the same esteem by American people.
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A Karenina
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
Why Don't Americans Care?
Suresh Gupta wrote: No, it was not rambling. It was a very well thought out message. I enjoyed every word of it. Also I am pleasantly surprised to discover that I and You, two people, living so far has common views about the governance of their countries, their leaders, their people (some concerned and some not-concerned), their issues, their worries. Shall we say that world is really small or we have many similarities in these areas. I tend to agree with your President and our PM that USA and India are natural allies. I have saved your message on my hard disk to show it to my friends who are very crtical of US. Thanks.
Suresh, thank you. I feel humbled and pleased at the same time, however trite that sounds.
Suresh Gupta wrote: I fully agree that freedom requires more than just voting in a major election. One has to on guard all the time. One should trust the government but blind trust is not good.
In india we believe that Americans are good people. We wish that Indians are also held in the same esteem by American people.
I agree that blind trust is not good. Unfortunately, questioning the goverment these days can bring about a lot of "anti-American" and "unpatriotic" insults. Fortunately, insults are not permanent...and many believe that this attitude is not permanent either. I was talking with a co-worker today and he was completely optimistic, saying, "McCarthyism all over again...but just remember that McCarthy failed and we were able to roll back much of the damage."
Suresh, I wish I could tell you that we hold everyone in high esteem, but that's just not the way some people operate. Racism and prejudice exists in so many forms all over the world. The fact that many of our jobs are being shipped to India is not helping matters any.
Perhaps it's easier to blame another country than it is to admit that our workers are expendable.
I don't know much about India, though I've met some fascinating people from there. I'm addicted to tandoori chicken and also to curried vegetables with rice. And I'll admit that I am beginning to hunt for Bali-Wood movies on tv. (laughing). I must sound like a complete idiot! I hope you are not offended.
I have a friend from Azerbaijan. We have so many similar experiences that it is amazing! Many of our habits and manners are alike, and even our old sayings are parallel. "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes out a bit differently in Turkish (grinning), but the idea is the same. Who would ever think that an Azerbaijani and a Southern American would have much in common? But we do, and I think that is true for many of us. Some things really are universal. For myself, I find that beautiful.
Suresh, thank you. I feel humbled and pleased at the same time, however trite that sounds.
Suresh Gupta wrote: I fully agree that freedom requires more than just voting in a major election. One has to on guard all the time. One should trust the government but blind trust is not good.
In india we believe that Americans are good people. We wish that Indians are also held in the same esteem by American people.
I agree that blind trust is not good. Unfortunately, questioning the goverment these days can bring about a lot of "anti-American" and "unpatriotic" insults. Fortunately, insults are not permanent...and many believe that this attitude is not permanent either. I was talking with a co-worker today and he was completely optimistic, saying, "McCarthyism all over again...but just remember that McCarthy failed and we were able to roll back much of the damage."
Suresh, I wish I could tell you that we hold everyone in high esteem, but that's just not the way some people operate. Racism and prejudice exists in so many forms all over the world. The fact that many of our jobs are being shipped to India is not helping matters any.
Perhaps it's easier to blame another country than it is to admit that our workers are expendable.I don't know much about India, though I've met some fascinating people from there. I'm addicted to tandoori chicken and also to curried vegetables with rice. And I'll admit that I am beginning to hunt for Bali-Wood movies on tv. (laughing). I must sound like a complete idiot! I hope you are not offended.
I have a friend from Azerbaijan. We have so many similar experiences that it is amazing! Many of our habits and manners are alike, and even our old sayings are parallel. "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" comes out a bit differently in Turkish (grinning), but the idea is the same. Who would ever think that an Azerbaijani and a Southern American would have much in common? But we do, and I think that is true for many of us. Some things really are universal. For myself, I find that beautiful.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle