God created the angelic world, a kingdom of spirits of light in eternity. God Himself has aseity. That is, He is self-existent and eternal in the absolute sense in the original eternity, whereas the angels exist in a derived eternity. They are created beings and so lack aseity.
Lucifer was the highest ranking of all God's angels and he was the anointed cherub. At some point, when the fall of Lucifer occurred, we are faced with the mystery of the origin of evil. God did not create evil, but the angels were all mutable, up to that happening in eternity, which means that they had the freedom to choose which way their existence would take them.
A being like Lucifer could be tempted within himself. He saw his own beauty and he could see that he was eternal. Instead of fixing his imagination upon God who created him, he saw that he could become a god and rule over all things. In order to try to create, all he could do was destroy what God had created. The beautiful star, which was Lucifer, quenched the light in himself along with those angels that followed him. He fell and he became the devil (Satan) and the fallen angels became the demons. God did not create "the devil"; Lucifer fell and became the devil. That is also when all the angels became immutable, so that the good ones now will always be good and the evil ones will always be evil. There is no going back.
Evil isn't as powerful as we seem to think it is when we are in the middle of it here in our lives. God controls everything and there will be a resolution of all that has happened and is happening.
Good has to work itself out and is seen more clearly by the existence of evil.
We can never FULLY understand evil and we never will until we are in the afterlife. The Bible only tells us as much as we need to know and so this gives us the need for faith. Salvation in the afterlife will mean so much more to those who have had faith and who have seen what evil really is.
God did not create evil, but He allowed it to come into existence like I said before. He has been using it for His greater purposes of choosing a people for Himself to be with Him in eternity. We are not immutable now and we are certainly not robots. There has to be an element of free will within the context of election and reprobation. When we are in eternity, we will be immutable so that it will be a perfect world for God's people.
The unbeliever cannot stand the world to be as it is. They want the perfect world now. The world and our existence is ambiguous; straining between good and evil in many different ways. The Christian should have hope of a perfect world in the afterlife, but the unbeliever has nothing to look forward to.
Satan and the fallen angels go back far into eternity - if we can use the word "far" which implies a context of time and space. Satan would have seen "The Big Bang" and the creation of the universe 12 billion years ago and he would have seen the creation of the Earth. Adam was created much much later and he was placed in the Garden of Eden which was located somewhere in the Middle East - probably in Mesopotamia. This would have been some time near to the end of the Stone Age.
One of the keys to understanding Adam, and God's purposes for Adam, can be seen in Paul's reference's in Romans chapter 5 and in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verses 45, 46 and 47. The parallel between the first Adam himself and Christ (the second Adam) is very important. However, this is another topic in itself.
When people use the words "blame" and "fault" and "wrong" against God, they are walking in dangerous territory because they are blaspheming. They cannot say that they know better than God, or that God is wrong. Read Job chapter 34, then Isaiah chapter 40 from verse 12 onwards, then read Psalm 104, to see what I mean.
Understanding evil
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Explorer the eighth
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Understanding evil
Quote of Explorer the eighth: God created the angelic world, a kingdom of spirits of light in eternity. God Himself has aseity. That is, He is self-existent and eternal in the absolute sense in the original eternity, whereas the angels exist in a derived eternity. They are created beings and so lack aseity.
Lucifer was the highest ranking of all God's angels and he was the anointed cherub. At some point, when the fall of Lucifer occurred, we are faced with the mystery of the origin of evil. God did not create evil, but the angels were all mutable, up to that happening in eternity, which means that they had the freedom to choose which way their existence would take them.
He fell and he became the devil (Satan) and the fallen angels became the demons. God did not create "the devil"; Lucifer fell and became the devil. That is also when all the angels became immutable, so that the good ones now will always be good and the evil ones will always be evil. There is no going back.
Where could I find a Biblical reference to your statement of the angels being first mutable and now immutable? This is a new thought for me. I need to read it first hand to understand better what you are saying.
Thanks.
Lucifer was the highest ranking of all God's angels and he was the anointed cherub. At some point, when the fall of Lucifer occurred, we are faced with the mystery of the origin of evil. God did not create evil, but the angels were all mutable, up to that happening in eternity, which means that they had the freedom to choose which way their existence would take them.
He fell and he became the devil (Satan) and the fallen angels became the demons. God did not create "the devil"; Lucifer fell and became the devil. That is also when all the angels became immutable, so that the good ones now will always be good and the evil ones will always be evil. There is no going back.
Where could I find a Biblical reference to your statement of the angels being first mutable and now immutable? This is a new thought for me. I need to read it first hand to understand better what you are saying.
Thanks.
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Explorer the eighth
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Understanding evil
SOJOURNER wrote:
Where could I find a Biblical reference to your statement of the angels being first mutable and now immutable? This is a new thought for me. I need to read it first hand to understand better what you are saying.
Thanks.
For those people who don't know the words, mutable means able to change whereas immutable means unable to change.
The Bible doesn't explicitly mention mutability or immutability. If we exegete the Bible by linking together all the references to the angels, we can see, firstly, why Satan and the fallen angels were mutable. In order for them to fall they had, by definition, to be mutable. If they had been immutable from their creation, they would not have fallen. We can also see from every reference to them that they will remain fallen and that they will be condemned to an eternity in Hell at the last judgement.
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
Where could I find a Biblical reference to your statement of the angels being first mutable and now immutable? This is a new thought for me. I need to read it first hand to understand better what you are saying.
Thanks.
For those people who don't know the words, mutable means able to change whereas immutable means unable to change.
The Bible doesn't explicitly mention mutability or immutability. If we exegete the Bible by linking together all the references to the angels, we can see, firstly, why Satan and the fallen angels were mutable. In order for them to fall they had, by definition, to be mutable. If they had been immutable from their creation, they would not have fallen. We can also see from every reference to them that they will remain fallen and that they will be condemned to an eternity in Hell at the last judgement.
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
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Accountable
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Understanding evil
Explorer the eighth wrote: For those people who don't know the words, mutable means able to change whereas immutable means unable to change.
The Bible doesn't explicitly mention mutability or immutability. If we exegete the Bible by linking together all the references to the angels, we can see, firstly, why Satan and the fallen angels were mutable. In order for them to fall they had, by definition, to be mutable. If they had been immutable from their creation, they would not have fallen. We can also see from every reference to them that they will remain fallen and that they will be condemned to an eternity in Hell at the last judgement.
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
Huh? Because they didn't change, you infer they're unable to change? So you think that all would have eventually fallen if God hadn't stepped in and took away their free will???????????
The Bible doesn't explicitly mention mutability or immutability. If we exegete the Bible by linking together all the references to the angels, we can see, firstly, why Satan and the fallen angels were mutable. In order for them to fall they had, by definition, to be mutable. If they had been immutable from their creation, they would not have fallen. We can also see from every reference to them that they will remain fallen and that they will be condemned to an eternity in Hell at the last judgement.
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
Huh? Because they didn't change, you infer they're unable to change? So you think that all would have eventually fallen if God hadn't stepped in and took away their free will???????????
Understanding evil
I think it's not so much that angels can't repent so much as they just won't. Compared to a human, they have a much sharper understanding of all the possible consequences of their actions before they actually make the decision to go through with anything. So, once they've made up their mind about something, they'll never see any reason to change their mind about it.
Understanding evil
Explorer the eighth wrote: For those people who don't know the words, mutable means able to change whereas immutable means unable to change.
The Bible doesn't explicitly mention mutability or immutability. If we exegete the Bible by linking together all the references to the angels, we can see, firstly, why Satan and the fallen angels were mutable. In order for them to fall they had, by definition, to be mutable. If they had been immutable from their creation, they would not have fallen. We can also see from every reference to them that they will remain fallen and that they will be condemned to an eternity in Hell at the last judgement.
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
In other words, this is how YOU choose to interpet what you've read.
The Bible doesn't explicitly mention mutability or immutability. If we exegete the Bible by linking together all the references to the angels, we can see, firstly, why Satan and the fallen angels were mutable. In order for them to fall they had, by definition, to be mutable. If they had been immutable from their creation, they would not have fallen. We can also see from every reference to them that they will remain fallen and that they will be condemned to an eternity in Hell at the last judgement.
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
In other words, this is how YOU choose to interpet what you've read.
Understanding evil
Far Rider wrote: Since they have all the information above what we have God gives them only one chance to decide and theres no going back.
I don't know if I'd go that far. Or I don't know if the people to whom I owe my own understanding of these sorts of things would go that far, at least. The best explanation I've been offered so far is that they simply won't go back on their decision, even if they theoretically could, because they knew exactly what they were doing to begin with.
Far Rider wrote: I have to think that once they understand the consequences of their sin they would never in the first place choose to leave Gods side, there has to be someone or something deluding them into beliveing they can win.
This is why Christians say pride so dangerous. It's not that the fallen angels were unaware of the consequences, it's that they didn't care. They would rather damn themselves than obey a God who would lower himself to become human. It's their way of spiting God, possibly their only way.
Humans sometimes behave in a similar fashion.
I don't know if I'd go that far. Or I don't know if the people to whom I owe my own understanding of these sorts of things would go that far, at least. The best explanation I've been offered so far is that they simply won't go back on their decision, even if they theoretically could, because they knew exactly what they were doing to begin with.
Far Rider wrote: I have to think that once they understand the consequences of their sin they would never in the first place choose to leave Gods side, there has to be someone or something deluding them into beliveing they can win.
This is why Christians say pride so dangerous. It's not that the fallen angels were unaware of the consequences, it's that they didn't care. They would rather damn themselves than obey a God who would lower himself to become human. It's their way of spiting God, possibly their only way.
Humans sometimes behave in a similar fashion.
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Explorer the eighth
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Understanding evil
SOJOURNER wrote: In other words, this is how YOU choose to interpet what you've read.
The Bible has to be interpreted. It is not a text book in our modern sense and so we cannot just pick it up and understand it without some exegesis.
Doctor Robert Morey has broached this subject in his book called, "Death and the Afterlife". Chapter 1 is called, "The Hermeneutics of death". He says in his book that we must emphasize the importance of hermeneutics and I would agree with him absolutely. He goes on to define hermeneutics as the discovery, understanding, and use of those linguistic and literary principles or rules of interpretation which should be followed when one seeks to understand the Bible.
He tells us of some of the wrong ways of interpretation. These are
1. Partial quotation of a text
2. Not observing who said it or wrote it
3. Bringing together unrelated proof texts.
4. Taking the verse out of context.
5. Taking a mystical approach to the Bible.
He gives us several hermeneutical principles for our understanding of the biblical teaching on death, and therefore this should also apply to giving us an understanding on other matters like that of the angels.
1. The clarity of scripture
2. Progressive revelation
3. The importance of the original languages
4. Grammatical interpretation
5. The principle of context
6. Figures of speech
Another book which deals with the question of biblical interpretation especially in relation to various traditions through the centuries is "The Shape of Sola Scriptura" by Keith Mathison.
The Bible has to be interpreted. It is not a text book in our modern sense and so we cannot just pick it up and understand it without some exegesis.
Doctor Robert Morey has broached this subject in his book called, "Death and the Afterlife". Chapter 1 is called, "The Hermeneutics of death". He says in his book that we must emphasize the importance of hermeneutics and I would agree with him absolutely. He goes on to define hermeneutics as the discovery, understanding, and use of those linguistic and literary principles or rules of interpretation which should be followed when one seeks to understand the Bible.
He tells us of some of the wrong ways of interpretation. These are
1. Partial quotation of a text
2. Not observing who said it or wrote it
3. Bringing together unrelated proof texts.
4. Taking the verse out of context.
5. Taking a mystical approach to the Bible.
He gives us several hermeneutical principles for our understanding of the biblical teaching on death, and therefore this should also apply to giving us an understanding on other matters like that of the angels.
1. The clarity of scripture
2. Progressive revelation
3. The importance of the original languages
4. Grammatical interpretation
5. The principle of context
6. Figures of speech
Another book which deals with the question of biblical interpretation especially in relation to various traditions through the centuries is "The Shape of Sola Scriptura" by Keith Mathison.
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Explorer the eighth
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Understanding evil
Accountable wrote: Huh? Because they didn't change, you infer they're unable to change? So you think that all would have eventually fallen if God hadn't stepped in and took away their free will???????????
We can see from the Bible that Satan and the fallen angels are condemned and that they cannot repent. We can see that there is no mention of the righteous angels ever falling and that they will be with God for eternity. After their creation, all the angels were in a probationary state, the result of which was that some wanted to be like God, as I said originally, and that is how they will always be.
I have found an interesting web page by Rick Reinckens which tells us more about the subject of the fallen angels.
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/satan.htm
We can see from the Bible that Satan and the fallen angels are condemned and that they cannot repent. We can see that there is no mention of the righteous angels ever falling and that they will be with God for eternity. After their creation, all the angels were in a probationary state, the result of which was that some wanted to be like God, as I said originally, and that is how they will always be.
I have found an interesting web page by Rick Reinckens which tells us more about the subject of the fallen angels.
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/satan.htm
Understanding evil
Eight,
What credentials do Robert Morey, Keith Mathison and Rick Reinckens have?
When did they write their opinions?
SoJo
What credentials do Robert Morey, Keith Mathison and Rick Reinckens have?
When did they write their opinions?
SoJo
Understanding evil
You believe that man wont be able to see evil until he reaches after life? Just reading this lets me understand that you have created a fantasy world for yourself. The bricks and mortar being scripture interpeted by you,to enable you to shun the reality of this world, which was all around you. And then, therfore create a fantasy world all your own. My feeling would be that you have experienced evil that caused you such pain, that you had to find a place to hide.
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Understanding evil
What is the point of understanding evil at all? All that is important is recognizing it and avoiding it when you see it. In other words, evil, being so insidious, will always be around. Our job as human beings is to concentrate on being good, and asking forgiveness when we do evil. Being imperfect, it is inevitable that we will do evil.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Understanding evil
It seems to me that the "fallen angel" fits the description of the human ego admirably
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
Understanding evil
Jives wrote: What is the point of understanding evil at all? All that is important is recognizing it and avoiding it when you see it. In other words, evil, being so insidious, will always be around. Our job as human beings is to concentrate on being good, and asking forgiveness when we do evil. Being imperfect, it is inevitable that we will do evil.
Bingo..survival skills
Bingo..survival skills
[FONT=Microsoft Sans Serif][/FONT]
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Accountable
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Understanding evil
Explorer the eighth wrote: We can see from the Bible that Satan and the fallen angels are condemned and that they cannot repent. We can see that there is no mention of the righteous angels ever falling and that they will be with God for eternity. After their creation, all the angels were in a probationary state, the result of which was that some wanted to be like God, as I said originally, and that is how they will always be.
I have found an interesting web page by Rick Reinckens which tells us more about the subject of the fallen angels.
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/satan.htm
I'm sorry if I seem thick, but you didn't answer my questions. Is that a yes or no?
Accountable wrote: Huh? Because they didn't change, you infer they're unable to change? So you think that all would have eventually fallen if God hadn't stepped in and took away their free will???????????
I have found an interesting web page by Rick Reinckens which tells us more about the subject of the fallen angels.
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/satan.htm
I'm sorry if I seem thick, but you didn't answer my questions. Is that a yes or no?
Accountable wrote: Huh? Because they didn't change, you infer they're unable to change? So you think that all would have eventually fallen if God hadn't stepped in and took away their free will???????????
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Accountable
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Understanding evil
Jives wrote: What is the point of understanding evil at all? All that is important is recognizing it and avoiding it when you see it. In other words, evil, being so insidious, will always be around. Our job as human beings is to concentrate on being good, and asking forgiveness when we do evil. Being imperfect, it is inevitable that we will do evil.
Isn't the point of understanding in the understanding? That's what I've been told in the creation/evolution threads.
Isn't the point of understanding in the understanding? That's what I've been told in the creation/evolution threads.
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Explorer the eighth
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Understanding evil
Accountable wrote: Huh? Because they didn't change, you infer they're unable to change? So you think that all would have eventually fallen if God hadn't stepped in and took away their free will???????????
It is not a matter of God stepping in and taking away their free will. We can see from Ezekial chapter 1, and even more so from Revelation chapter 4, that they have chosen to worship God throughout eternity. The throne of God is so great and glorious that even the highest angels, the cherubim, never stop saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was, and is, and is to come." They dwell in His presence and lower themselves in the act of worship.
It is not a matter of God stepping in and taking away their free will. We can see from Ezekial chapter 1, and even more so from Revelation chapter 4, that they have chosen to worship God throughout eternity. The throne of God is so great and glorious that even the highest angels, the cherubim, never stop saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was, and is, and is to come." They dwell in His presence and lower themselves in the act of worship.
Understanding evil
Explorer the eighth wrote: The throne of God is so great and glorious that even the highest angels, the cherubim, never stop saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was, and is, and is to come." They dwell in His presence and lower themselves in the act of worship.Lord, thank you for not making me an angel. And, if that's the anticipated fate of the Choir Celestial too, please count me out.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Explorer the eighth
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Understanding evil
SOJOURNER wrote: Eight,
What credentials do Robert Morey, Keith Mathison and Rick Reinckens have?
When did they write their opinions?
SoJo
Dr Robert Morey received a B.A. in philosophy and his M. Div. and D. Min. from Westminster Theological Seminary. He was, at the time of publication of the book, "Death and the Afterlife", printed in 1984, Pastor of New Life Bible Church and Professor of Apologetics and Hermeneutics at Perry Bible Institute. He has also written many other books.
Keith Mathison received the Master of Arts in Theological Studies from Reformed Theological Seminary. His book, "The Shape of Sola Scripture", printed in 2001, has been recommended by Charles P. Arand who is the Associate Professor and Chairman of the Department of Systematic Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis.
I found the website of Rick Reinckens whilst browsing for information on the internet. On this particular page concerning the angels, I could not find fault with what he was saying. It saved me from doing hours and hours of homework just to copy the link across here. This is some information about him.
The author of this article, Rick Reinckens, is a Messianic gentile who has attended Baruch HaShem Messianic Synagogue in Dallas, Texas since December 1999. He has completed five Messianic Yeshiva courses, a three-day orientation on Messianic Judaism given by BHS, and has extensively read Messianic authors such as Dan Juster, John C. Fisher, Michael L. Brown and David Stern. He has also studied Hebrew and traditional (non-Messianic) Judaism and has attended the Reform Jewish Temple Emanu-El in Dallas since early 2003. He also holds a Certificate in Theology from the Dallas Extension Division of Interdenominational Theological Center (Protestant) in Atlanta, Georgia. He has written extensively on theology and apologetics and is the webmaster of about 20 Protestant and Messianic websites that mainly deal with theology and apologetics.
What credentials do Robert Morey, Keith Mathison and Rick Reinckens have?
When did they write their opinions?
SoJo
Dr Robert Morey received a B.A. in philosophy and his M. Div. and D. Min. from Westminster Theological Seminary. He was, at the time of publication of the book, "Death and the Afterlife", printed in 1984, Pastor of New Life Bible Church and Professor of Apologetics and Hermeneutics at Perry Bible Institute. He has also written many other books.
Keith Mathison received the Master of Arts in Theological Studies from Reformed Theological Seminary. His book, "The Shape of Sola Scripture", printed in 2001, has been recommended by Charles P. Arand who is the Associate Professor and Chairman of the Department of Systematic Theology, Concordia Seminary, St. Louis.
I found the website of Rick Reinckens whilst browsing for information on the internet. On this particular page concerning the angels, I could not find fault with what he was saying. It saved me from doing hours and hours of homework just to copy the link across here. This is some information about him.
The author of this article, Rick Reinckens, is a Messianic gentile who has attended Baruch HaShem Messianic Synagogue in Dallas, Texas since December 1999. He has completed five Messianic Yeshiva courses, a three-day orientation on Messianic Judaism given by BHS, and has extensively read Messianic authors such as Dan Juster, John C. Fisher, Michael L. Brown and David Stern. He has also studied Hebrew and traditional (non-Messianic) Judaism and has attended the Reform Jewish Temple Emanu-El in Dallas since early 2003. He also holds a Certificate in Theology from the Dallas Extension Division of Interdenominational Theological Center (Protestant) in Atlanta, Georgia. He has written extensively on theology and apologetics and is the webmaster of about 20 Protestant and Messianic websites that mainly deal with theology and apologetics.
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Accountable
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Understanding evil
Explorer the eighth wrote: Lucifer was the highest ranking of all God's angels and he was the anointed cherub. At some point, when the fall of Lucifer occurred, we are faced with the mystery of the origin of evil. God did not create evil, but the angels were all mutable, up to that happening in eternity, which means that they had the freedom to choose which way their existence would take them.
A being like Lucifer could be tempted within himself. He saw his own beauty and he could see that he was eternal. Instead of fixing his imagination upon God who created him, he saw that he could become a god and rule over all things. In order to try to create, all he could do was destroy what God had created. The beautiful star, which was Lucifer, quenched the light in himself along with those angels that followed him. He fell and he became the devil (Satan) and the fallen angels became the demons. God did not create "the devil"; Lucifer fell and became the devil. That is also when all the angels became immutable, so that the good ones now will always be good and the evil ones will always be evil. There is no going back.
Explorer the eighth wrote: For those people who don't know the words, mutable means able to change whereas immutable means unable to change.
[...]
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that [mutable] throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
Explorer the eighth wrote: It is not a matter of God stepping in and taking away their free will. We can see from Ezekial chapter 1, and even more so from Revelation chapter 4, that they have chosen to worship God throughout eternity. The throne of God is so great and glorious that even the highest angels, the cherubim, never stop saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was, and is, and is to come." They dwell in His presence and lower themselves in the act of worship.
You contradict yourself here. By the definition you gave, one cannot choose to be immutable. Either the angels are mutable and choose to stay with God, or God took their free will away and made them immutable.
It's not a minor point.
If the angels are mutable and choose to remain with God, it speaks to His goodness and charisma, for want of better words. They stay with God because they have decided it is the best place to be.
If the angels are immutable, as you say, God took away their mutability. I infer from that, that God feared that more angels may defect and acted to prevent it. His angels are thus no longer allies, but slaves.
Why would we humans want to go to Heaven to be with a God that even the Angels would abandon, if able?
A being like Lucifer could be tempted within himself. He saw his own beauty and he could see that he was eternal. Instead of fixing his imagination upon God who created him, he saw that he could become a god and rule over all things. In order to try to create, all he could do was destroy what God had created. The beautiful star, which was Lucifer, quenched the light in himself along with those angels that followed him. He fell and he became the devil (Satan) and the fallen angels became the demons. God did not create "the devil"; Lucifer fell and became the devil. That is also when all the angels became immutable, so that the good ones now will always be good and the evil ones will always be evil. There is no going back.
Explorer the eighth wrote: For those people who don't know the words, mutable means able to change whereas immutable means unable to change.
[...]
Secondly, the good angels, like Michael and Gabriel are always to be seen as that [mutable] throughout the entire Bible and so we can see that they are now immutable as well and that they have never, and will never, fall. It is implied that they were once mutable, before the fall, because otherwise the fall of Satan and his angels would be meaningless.
Explorer the eighth wrote: It is not a matter of God stepping in and taking away their free will. We can see from Ezekial chapter 1, and even more so from Revelation chapter 4, that they have chosen to worship God throughout eternity. The throne of God is so great and glorious that even the highest angels, the cherubim, never stop saying, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty who was, and is, and is to come." They dwell in His presence and lower themselves in the act of worship.
You contradict yourself here. By the definition you gave, one cannot choose to be immutable. Either the angels are mutable and choose to stay with God, or God took their free will away and made them immutable.
It's not a minor point.
If the angels are mutable and choose to remain with God, it speaks to His goodness and charisma, for want of better words. They stay with God because they have decided it is the best place to be.
If the angels are immutable, as you say, God took away their mutability. I infer from that, that God feared that more angels may defect and acted to prevent it. His angels are thus no longer allies, but slaves.
Why would we humans want to go to Heaven to be with a God that even the Angels would abandon, if able?
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Explorer the eighth
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Understanding evil
Accountable wrote: You contradict yourself here. By the definition you gave, one cannot choose to be immutable. Either the angels are mutable and choose to stay with God, or God took their free will away and made them immutable.
It's not a minor point.
If the angels are mutable and choose to remain with God, it speaks to His goodness and charisma, for want of better words. They stay with God because they have decided it is the best place to be.
If the angels are immutable, as you say, God took away their mutability. I infer from that, that God feared that more angels may defect and acted to prevent it. His angels are thus no longer allies, but slaves.
Why would we humans want to go to Heaven to be with a God that even the Angels would abandon, if able?
This is a good point and it has helped me to see that I shouldn't have used the word "choose". Instead of saying "they chose to worship God throughout eternity", I should have said this:
The righteous angels were created righteous. After the fall of Satan and his angels, those righteous angels stayed righteous and will always be righteous. It was not a question that they chose (in our sense of the word), or that they had free will (as we would have it). They have remained righteous and always will be throughout eternity. We cannot look at them in a worldly way as we look upon ourselves.
Satan and the fallen angels did choose because they were deceiving themselves. Now they are awaiting the last judgement. Revelation chapter 20 says, "And the devil, who deceived them (that is the nations), was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." They cannot reverse what they have done.
We are mutuble, all of the people who are alive in the world today. However, after death, we will all be immutable. It will be like "the Rich man and Lazarus" in Luke chapter 16 from verse 19 onwards.
It's not a minor point.
If the angels are mutable and choose to remain with God, it speaks to His goodness and charisma, for want of better words. They stay with God because they have decided it is the best place to be.
If the angels are immutable, as you say, God took away their mutability. I infer from that, that God feared that more angels may defect and acted to prevent it. His angels are thus no longer allies, but slaves.
Why would we humans want to go to Heaven to be with a God that even the Angels would abandon, if able?
This is a good point and it has helped me to see that I shouldn't have used the word "choose". Instead of saying "they chose to worship God throughout eternity", I should have said this:
The righteous angels were created righteous. After the fall of Satan and his angels, those righteous angels stayed righteous and will always be righteous. It was not a question that they chose (in our sense of the word), or that they had free will (as we would have it). They have remained righteous and always will be throughout eternity. We cannot look at them in a worldly way as we look upon ourselves.
Satan and the fallen angels did choose because they were deceiving themselves. Now they are awaiting the last judgement. Revelation chapter 20 says, "And the devil, who deceived them (that is the nations), was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." They cannot reverse what they have done.
We are mutuble, all of the people who are alive in the world today. However, after death, we will all be immutable. It will be like "the Rich man and Lazarus" in Luke chapter 16 from verse 19 onwards.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Understanding evil
I'm not sure I like the idea of giving up my free will. What kind of paradise would it be if you didn't have freedom? That's just a gilded cage.
Understanding evil
I have found an interesting web page by Rick Reinckens which tells us more about the subject of the fallen angels.
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/satan.htm
I can't see what Ezekiel 28:12-15 has to do with Satan.
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/satan.htm
I can't see what Ezekiel 28:12-15 has to do with Satan.
Understanding evil
Explorer the eighth wrote: God created the angelic world, a kingdom of spirits of light in eternity. God Himself has aseity. That is, He is self-existent and eternal in the absolute sense in the original eternity, whereas the angels exist in a derived eternity. They are created beings and so lack aseity.
Lucifer was the highest ranking of all God's angels and he was the anointed cherub. At some point, when the fall of Lucifer occurred, we are faced with the mystery of the origin of evil. God did not create evil, but the angels were all mutable, up to that happening in eternity, which means that they had the freedom to choose which way their existence would take them.
A being like Lucifer could be tempted within himself. He saw his own beauty and he could see that he was eternal. Instead of fixing his imagination upon God who created him, he saw that he could become a god and rule over all things. In order to try to create, all he could do was destroy what God had created. The beautiful star, which was Lucifer, quenched the light in himself along with those angels that followed him. He fell and he became the devil (Satan) and the fallen angels became the demons. God did not create "the devil"; Lucifer fell and became the devil. That is also when all the angels became immutable, so that the good ones now will always be good and the evil ones will always be evil. There is no going back.
Evil isn't as powerful as we seem to think it is when we are in the middle of it here in our lives. God controls everything and there will be a resolution of all that has happened and is happening.
Good has to work itself out and is seen more clearly by the existence of evil.
We can never FULLY understand evil and we never will until we are in the afterlife. The Bible only tells us as much as we need to know and so this gives us the need for faith. Salvation in the afterlife will mean so much more to those who have had faith and who have seen what evil really is.
God did not create evil, but He allowed it to come into existence like I said before. He has been using it for His greater purposes of choosing a people for Himself to be with Him in eternity. We are not immutable now and we are certainly not robots. There has to be an element of free will within the context of election and reprobation. When we are in eternity, we will be immutable so that it will be a perfect world for God's people.
The unbeliever cannot stand the world to be as it is. They want the perfect world now. The world and our existence is ambiguous; straining between good and evil in many different ways. The Christian should have hope of a perfect world in the afterlife, but the unbeliever has nothing to look forward to.
Satan and the fallen angels go back far into eternity - if we can use the word "far" which implies a context of time and space. Satan would have seen "The Big Bang" and the creation of the universe 12 billion years ago and he would have seen the creation of the Earth. Adam was created much much later and he was placed in the Garden of Eden which was located somewhere in the Middle East - probably in Mesopotamia. This would have been some time near to the end of the Stone Age.
One of the keys to understanding Adam, and God's purposes for Adam, can be seen in Paul's reference's in Romans chapter 5 and in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verses 45, 46 and 47. The parallel between the first Adam himself and Christ (the second Adam) is very important. However, this is another topic in itself.
When people use the words "blame" and "fault" and "wrong" against God, they are walking in dangerous territory because they are blaspheming. They cannot say that they know better than God, or that God is wrong. Read Job chapter 34, then Isaiah chapter 40 from verse 12 onwards, then read Psalm 104, to see what I mean.
Lucifer was the highest ranking of all God's angels and he was the anointed cherub. At some point, when the fall of Lucifer occurred, we are faced with the mystery of the origin of evil. God did not create evil, but the angels were all mutable, up to that happening in eternity, which means that they had the freedom to choose which way their existence would take them.
A being like Lucifer could be tempted within himself. He saw his own beauty and he could see that he was eternal. Instead of fixing his imagination upon God who created him, he saw that he could become a god and rule over all things. In order to try to create, all he could do was destroy what God had created. The beautiful star, which was Lucifer, quenched the light in himself along with those angels that followed him. He fell and he became the devil (Satan) and the fallen angels became the demons. God did not create "the devil"; Lucifer fell and became the devil. That is also when all the angels became immutable, so that the good ones now will always be good and the evil ones will always be evil. There is no going back.
Evil isn't as powerful as we seem to think it is when we are in the middle of it here in our lives. God controls everything and there will be a resolution of all that has happened and is happening.
Good has to work itself out and is seen more clearly by the existence of evil.
We can never FULLY understand evil and we never will until we are in the afterlife. The Bible only tells us as much as we need to know and so this gives us the need for faith. Salvation in the afterlife will mean so much more to those who have had faith and who have seen what evil really is.
God did not create evil, but He allowed it to come into existence like I said before. He has been using it for His greater purposes of choosing a people for Himself to be with Him in eternity. We are not immutable now and we are certainly not robots. There has to be an element of free will within the context of election and reprobation. When we are in eternity, we will be immutable so that it will be a perfect world for God's people.
The unbeliever cannot stand the world to be as it is. They want the perfect world now. The world and our existence is ambiguous; straining between good and evil in many different ways. The Christian should have hope of a perfect world in the afterlife, but the unbeliever has nothing to look forward to.
Satan and the fallen angels go back far into eternity - if we can use the word "far" which implies a context of time and space. Satan would have seen "The Big Bang" and the creation of the universe 12 billion years ago and he would have seen the creation of the Earth. Adam was created much much later and he was placed in the Garden of Eden which was located somewhere in the Middle East - probably in Mesopotamia. This would have been some time near to the end of the Stone Age.
One of the keys to understanding Adam, and God's purposes for Adam, can be seen in Paul's reference's in Romans chapter 5 and in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, verses 45, 46 and 47. The parallel between the first Adam himself and Christ (the second Adam) is very important. However, this is another topic in itself.
When people use the words "blame" and "fault" and "wrong" against God, they are walking in dangerous territory because they are blaspheming. They cannot say that they know better than God, or that God is wrong. Read Job chapter 34, then Isaiah chapter 40 from verse 12 onwards, then read Psalm 104, to see what I mean.
Understanding evil
I don't think the question of the existence of angels fallen or otherwise is the important issue. The important issue is what does this writing mean. What is it's message.
I suspect that the ideas concerning angels and satan are basically myths created to tell a story or the personification of the ideas of good and evil. Otherwise it all reads like some ancient Greek myth and then I look for the minataur or a cyclops.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I suspect that the ideas concerning angels and satan are basically myths created to tell a story or the personification of the ideas of good and evil. Otherwise it all reads like some ancient Greek myth and then I look for the minataur or a cyclops.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Understanding evil
memebias wrote: I can't see what Ezekiel 28:12-15 has to do with Satan.
At the beginning of chapter 28, the spiritual condition of the "PRINCE" (human) of Tyrus is addressed.
Next, a higher authority (KING) is addressed. It says of him (13) "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;...".>>>>>>When was there ever a human who could be called the King of Tyrus also there in the Garden of Eden?
Verse 14 calls the King of Tyrus, "the annointed cherub". Cherubim are an order of high ranking angels.
Verse 15 says of him, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created.......".
Men are born (begotten). Angels were "created".
Verse 16 goes on to say he will be destroyed, "Oh covering cherub...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another statement was made regarding the fallen, about their spending an eternity in HELL. That just is not Biblical.
The Greek for "hell" relates to a definite period of time. Like "eon". The Lake of Fire is not hell. In verse 18 of the sequence of scripture mentioned above, God says, "I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee....", and verse 19 says, "thou shalt be no more."
That means he ceases to exist. Where can you conclude "eternity" from that. He stops "being"!
If you gather together Satan and his band of close followers and set them in a place and cause a fire (spontaneous combustion) from God to kindle from within, from a distance, it may appear to be a "lake of fire". Not an ocean or sea or pit.
This demonstrates complete annihilation.
Popular teaching from Biblically illiterate preachers tells of "eternity in hell". Not the Bible.
d:-5
At the beginning of chapter 28, the spiritual condition of the "PRINCE" (human) of Tyrus is addressed.
Next, a higher authority (KING) is addressed. It says of him (13) "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;...".>>>>>>When was there ever a human who could be called the King of Tyrus also there in the Garden of Eden?
Verse 14 calls the King of Tyrus, "the annointed cherub". Cherubim are an order of high ranking angels.
Verse 15 says of him, "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created.......".
Men are born (begotten). Angels were "created".
Verse 16 goes on to say he will be destroyed, "Oh covering cherub...".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another statement was made regarding the fallen, about their spending an eternity in HELL. That just is not Biblical.
The Greek for "hell" relates to a definite period of time. Like "eon". The Lake of Fire is not hell. In verse 18 of the sequence of scripture mentioned above, God says, "I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee....", and verse 19 says, "thou shalt be no more."
That means he ceases to exist. Where can you conclude "eternity" from that. He stops "being"!
If you gather together Satan and his band of close followers and set them in a place and cause a fire (spontaneous combustion) from God to kindle from within, from a distance, it may appear to be a "lake of fire". Not an ocean or sea or pit.
This demonstrates complete annihilation.
Popular teaching from Biblically illiterate preachers tells of "eternity in hell". Not the Bible.
d:-5