http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... _Iraq.html
U.S. church alliance denounces Iraq war
By BRIAN MURPHY, AP RELIGION WRITER
PORTO ALEGRE, Brazil -- A coalition of American churches sharply denounced the U.S.-led war in Iraq on Saturday, accusing Washington of "raining down terror" and apologizing to other nations for "the violence, degradation and poverty our nation has sown."
The statement, issued at the largest gathering of Christian churches in nearly a decade, also warned the United States was pushing the world toward environmental catastrophe with a "culture of consumption" and its refusal to back international accords seeking to battle global warming.
"We lament with special anguish the war in Iraq, launched in deception and violating global norms of justice and human rights," said the statement from representatives of the 34 U.S. members of World Council of Churches. "We mourn all who have died or been injured in this war. We acknowledge with shame abuses carried out in our name."
The World Council of Churches includes more than 350 mainstream Protestant, Anglican and Orthodox churches; the Roman Catholic Church is not a member. The U.S. groups in the WCC include the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Methodist Church, several Orthodox churches and Baptist denominations, among others.
The statement is part of widening religious pressure on the Bush administration, which still counts on the support of evangelical churches and other conservative denominations but is widely unpopular with liberal-minded Protestant congregations.
The Very Rev. Leonid Kishkovsky, the moderator for the U.S. group of WCC members, said the letter was backed by the leaders of the churches but was not cleared by lower-level bodies. He predicted friction within congregations about the tone of the message.
"There is much internal anguish and there is division," said Kishkovsky, ecumenical officer of the Orthodox Church of America. "I believe church leaders and communities are wrestling with the moral questions that this letter is addressing."
On Friday, the U.S. National Council of Churches - which includes many WCC members - released a letter appealing to Washington to close the Guantanamo Bay detention facility and saying reports of alleged torture violated "the fundamental Christian belief in the dignity of the human person."
The two-page statement from the WCC group came at the midpoint of a 10-day meeting of more than 4,000 religious leaders, scholars and activists discussing trends and goals for major Christian denominations for the coming decades. The WCC's last global assembly was in 1998 in Zimbabwe - just four months after al-Qaida staged twin bombings at U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania.
"Our country responded (to the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks) by seeking to reclaim a privileged and secure place in the world, raining down terror on the truly vulnerable among our global neighbors ... entering into imperial projects that seek to dominate and control for the sake of national interests," said the statement. "Nations have been demonized and God has been enlisted in national agendas that are nothing short of idolatrous."
The Rev. Sharon Watkins, president of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), worried that some may interpret the statement as undermining U.S. troops in Iraq.
"We honor their courage and sense of duty, but ... we, as people of faith, have to say to our brothers and sisters, `We are so profoundly sorry,'" Watkins said.
The message also accused U.S. officials of ignoring warnings about climate change and treating the world's "finite resources as if they are private possessions." It went on to criticize U.S. domestic policies for refusing to confront racism and poverty.
"Hurricane Katrina revealed to the world those left behind in our own nation by the rupture of our social contract," said the statement.
The churches said they had "grown heavy with guilt" for not doing enough to speak out against the Iraq war and other issues. The statement asked forgiveness for a world that's "grown weary from the violence, degradation and poverty our nation has sown."
Churches Denounce Iraq War
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
What possible good do they hope to achieve? We're there. How we got there is irrelevant until we get out. Would it be better just to drop everything and leave?
Save the apologies until after this is done. At this time, they do nothing but encourage the enemy and prolong the very suffering they purport to oppose.
Save the apologies until after this is done. At this time, they do nothing but encourage the enemy and prolong the very suffering they purport to oppose.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: What possible good do they hope to achieve? We're there. How we got there is irrelevant until we get out. Would it be better just to drop everything and leave?
Save the apologies until after this is done. At this time, they do nothing but encourage the enemy and prolong the very suffering they purport to oppose.Shall I suggest a feasible way out of Iraq right now? Bring President Hussain, that mythically unnatural US-invented "Hitler", out of his jail suite, dust him down, offer him back his wardrobe full of uniforms and palaces, and the last serviceman out can close the door behind him. Short of a clear and impendingly present danger to its national territory or nationals, the US has absolutely no business at all in putting any of its troops in harm's way abroad. That's as true today as it was in 2003. A ton of propaganda has gone around about Iraq posing a threat to the physical (as opposed to economic) security of the USA, and the bottom line is that it's all overwhelmingly untrue.
"How we got there is irrelevant until we get out" may be true from your perspective, but it is not justice. If the troops are left there to save face for the current US administration, then that's a very bad reason indeed.
Save the apologies until after this is done. At this time, they do nothing but encourage the enemy and prolong the very suffering they purport to oppose.Shall I suggest a feasible way out of Iraq right now? Bring President Hussain, that mythically unnatural US-invented "Hitler", out of his jail suite, dust him down, offer him back his wardrobe full of uniforms and palaces, and the last serviceman out can close the door behind him. Short of a clear and impendingly present danger to its national territory or nationals, the US has absolutely no business at all in putting any of its troops in harm's way abroad. That's as true today as it was in 2003. A ton of propaganda has gone around about Iraq posing a threat to the physical (as opposed to economic) security of the USA, and the bottom line is that it's all overwhelmingly untrue.
"How we got there is irrelevant until we get out" may be true from your perspective, but it is not justice. If the troops are left there to save face for the current US administration, then that's a very bad reason indeed.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: Spot that suggestion, if we took it, would kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Nice move.:rolleyes:In what way would that differ either from the last few years or the next few? You seriously think things are simmering down and civilians there are getting their lives back together?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
It's actually a little refreshing seeing the church involved in important issues like violence, poverty, and the environment instead of just abortion and gay marriage.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: In what way would that differ either from the last few years or the next few? You seriously think things are simmering down and civilians there are getting their lives back together?
Anybody old enough or well-enough versed in detailed history to compare the aftermath of WWII with what we're going through now?
It's difficult for me to believe that the surrender was signed on Monday and by Wednesday afternoon all was white wine and roses.
Anybody old enough or well-enough versed in detailed history to compare the aftermath of WWII with what we're going through now?
It's difficult for me to believe that the surrender was signed on Monday and by Wednesday afternoon all was white wine and roses.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Anybody old enough or well-enough versed in detailed history to compare the aftermath of WWII with what we're going through now?
It's difficult for me to believe that the surrender was signed on Monday and by Wednesday afternoon all was white wine and roses.This seems to be a very standard apologist approach on internet discussion threads in general - "how many US troops died after the cessation of hostilities in WW2". If you think you can dig up an answer then do, please, and give us a source for the data.
What puzzles me is why you think there's the slightest comparison between WW2 and Operation Iraqi Freedom (is that the right name for the current quagmire? I don't keep up with this strange campaign nomenclature). Iraq was not, is not and never will be comparable to the Axis powers, and the "coalition of the willing" are nothing like the Allies either. The scale differs, the territory differs, the monstrous disparity in capability differs. Why not pick another war for comparison purposes, like the Spanish American war for example. Why is it invariably World War Two, where the moral high ground was so well defined? Ah. That might be it.
Meanwhile, to return to the top of the page, have you actually read the article and considered the scale of the coalition? That is, reading it, an astounding declaration all round, with a stack of mainstream participants.
It's difficult for me to believe that the surrender was signed on Monday and by Wednesday afternoon all was white wine and roses.This seems to be a very standard apologist approach on internet discussion threads in general - "how many US troops died after the cessation of hostilities in WW2". If you think you can dig up an answer then do, please, and give us a source for the data.
What puzzles me is why you think there's the slightest comparison between WW2 and Operation Iraqi Freedom (is that the right name for the current quagmire? I don't keep up with this strange campaign nomenclature). Iraq was not, is not and never will be comparable to the Axis powers, and the "coalition of the willing" are nothing like the Allies either. The scale differs, the territory differs, the monstrous disparity in capability differs. Why not pick another war for comparison purposes, like the Spanish American war for example. Why is it invariably World War Two, where the moral high ground was so well defined? Ah. That might be it.
Meanwhile, to return to the top of the page, have you actually read the article and considered the scale of the coalition? That is, reading it, an astounding declaration all round, with a stack of mainstream participants.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: This seems to be a very standard apologist approach on internet discussion threads in general - "how many US troops died after the cessation of hostilities in WW2". If you think you can dig up an answer then do, please, and give us a source for the data.
What puzzles me is why you think there's the slightest comparison between WW2 and Operation Iraqi Freedom (is that the right name for the current quagmire? I don't keep up with this strange campaign nomenclature). Iraq was not, is not and never will be comparable to the Axis powers, and the "coalition of the willing" are nothing like the Allies either. The scale differs, the territory differs, the monstrous disparity in capability differs. Why not pick another war for comparison purposes, like the Spanish American war for example. Why is it invariably World War Two, where the moral high ground was so well defined? Ah. That might be it.
Meanwhile, to return to the top of the page, have you actually read the article and considered the scale of the coalition? That is, reading it, an astounding declaration all round, with a stack of mainstream participants.
I didn't mean to distract (and I don't think I characterized myself as apologist). Pick a war. My point is that I don't think the fighting stops simply because people sign a peice of paper.
What puzzles me is why you think there's the slightest comparison between WW2 and Operation Iraqi Freedom (is that the right name for the current quagmire? I don't keep up with this strange campaign nomenclature). Iraq was not, is not and never will be comparable to the Axis powers, and the "coalition of the willing" are nothing like the Allies either. The scale differs, the territory differs, the monstrous disparity in capability differs. Why not pick another war for comparison purposes, like the Spanish American war for example. Why is it invariably World War Two, where the moral high ground was so well defined? Ah. That might be it.
Meanwhile, to return to the top of the page, have you actually read the article and considered the scale of the coalition? That is, reading it, an astounding declaration all round, with a stack of mainstream participants.
I didn't mean to distract (and I don't think I characterized myself as apologist). Pick a war. My point is that I don't think the fighting stops simply because people sign a peice of paper.
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chonsigirl
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
Benjamin wrote: It's actually a little refreshing seeing the church involved in important issues like violence, poverty, and the environment instead of just abortion and gay marriage.
It's the World Council of Churches, all denominations do not belong to that organization or agree with their statements on certain issues.
It's the World Council of Churches, all denominations do not belong to that organization or agree with their statements on certain issues.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Not all, certainly, but I was delighted to the the United Methodist Church was represented there. I have a lot of respect for them.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: I didn't mean to distract (and I don't think I characterized myself as apologist). Pick a war.I did, as you might have noticed. And you don't seem to have addressed my question of "the slightest comparison between WW2 and Operation Iraqi Freedom".
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: I did, as you might have noticed. And you don't seem to have addressed my question of "the slightest comparison between WW2 and Operation Iraqi Freedom".
Sure I did. I said pick a war. There's no difference once boots hit the ground and lives are being spent. War is war. If you don't want to discuss the aftermath which was the point of my post, that's fine. It's a bit off-topic anyway.
Sure I did. I said pick a war. There's no difference once boots hit the ground and lives are being spent. War is war. If you don't want to discuss the aftermath which was the point of my post, that's fine. It's a bit off-topic anyway.
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daffodil52
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
well i recon they should ban all religion... in the last 2000and odd years....
al it done is courses al kinds off trouble al over the world ,, who need it ..
cartoon .... vicars molesing childen
I for one wounldnt miss it..... thats my opinion.......its all rubbish.... a pack, off lies..lol daffy ps
Theirs more people died , through religion than any thing on this planet...
hypocritical the lot off it.......lol daffy52
al it done is courses al kinds off trouble al over the world ,, who need it ..
cartoon .... vicars molesing childen
I for one wounldnt miss it..... thats my opinion.......its all rubbish.... a pack, off lies..lol daffy ps
Theirs more people died , through religion than any thing on this planet...
hypocritical the lot off it.......lol daffy52
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Sure I did. I said pick a war. There's no difference once boots hit the ground and lives are being spent. War is war. If you don't want to discuss the aftermath which was the point of my post, that's fine. It's a bit off-topic anyway.I'll happily discuss the aftermath - all you need do is show me some statistics. And no, it's not off topic.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
daffodil52 wrote: well i recon they should ban all religion... in the last 2000and odd years....
al it done is courses al kinds off trouble al over the world ,, who need it ..
I for one wounldnt miss it..... thats my opinion.......its all rubbish.... a packs off lies..lol daffyLong time no see, Daffy.
I think the bad part of religion you refer to would happen anyway, just under a different name. I think religion today does more good than harm.
al it done is courses al kinds off trouble al over the world ,, who need it ..
I for one wounldnt miss it..... thats my opinion.......its all rubbish.... a packs off lies..lol daffyLong time no see, Daffy.
I think the bad part of religion you refer to would happen anyway, just under a different name. I think religion today does more good than harm.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: I'll happily discuss the aftermath - all you need do is show me some statistics. And no, it's not off topic.
:wah: My whole objective of bringing it up was that I'm completely ignorant of the stats. That's why I asked if anyone had that kind of detailed knowledge.
:wah: My whole objective of bringing it up was that I'm completely ignorant of the stats. That's why I asked if anyone had that kind of detailed knowledge.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: :wah: My whole objective of bringing it up was that I'm completely ignorant of the stats. That's why I asked if anyone had that kind of detailed knowledge.Then allow me to doubt whether the casualties among US servicemen in Europe in the aftermath of WW2 was remotely comparable with those in Iraq. And no, I can't find them either, much as I'd like to. Your military seems reticent about lots of matters of detail.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: Then allow me to doubt whether the casualties among US servicemen in Europe in the aftermath of WW2 was remotely comparable with those in Iraq. And no, I can't find them either, much as I'd like to. Your military seems reticent about lots of matters of detail.Yeh, it would probably take some real old-school research to get that kind of information.
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daffodil52
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Long time no see, Daffy.
I think the bad part of religion you refer to would happen anyway, just under a different name. I think religion today does more good than harm. hi
it make one wonder, wott this world would be like without it,,,, nothin to fight over
... arr peace at last,,,, no nutter going around bombing inocent men women
and children,,, fooy the lot off it .....sorry i don't agree.. the world would be a better place to live in without it,,,, religion daffy 52
ps all breeds and all colours .. would live side by side in peace.
their ,worse than football hooligans....religouse nut cases......thats all they arr
their'll be no peace in this world....untill its all ban .......
let face... theirs no great person gone a, save this lovely planet off ours... until we all get in to our heads..... that god dos'ent exist....
ar just look were this martyr came from the holy land... weres all the trouble in the world today,,,,,,,right? u say good were....
I think the bad part of religion you refer to would happen anyway, just under a different name. I think religion today does more good than harm. hi
it make one wonder, wott this world would be like without it,,,, nothin to fight over
... arr peace at last,,,, no nutter going around bombing inocent men women
and children,,, fooy the lot off it .....sorry i don't agree.. the world would be a better place to live in without it,,,, religion daffy 52
ps all breeds and all colours .. would live side by side in peace.
their ,worse than football hooligans....religouse nut cases......thats all they arr
their'll be no peace in this world....untill its all ban .......
let face... theirs no great person gone a, save this lovely planet off ours... until we all get in to our heads..... that god dos'ent exist....
ar just look were this martyr came from the holy land... weres all the trouble in the world today,,,,,,,right? u say good were....
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chonsigirl
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: Then allow me to doubt whether the casualties among US servicemen in Europe in the aftermath of WW2 was remotely comparable with those in Iraq. And no, I can't find them either, much as I'd like to. Your military seems reticent about lots of matters of detail.
Spot, I think those details are still considered closed at this point. It usually takes over fifty years before the National Archives releases those records to the public. Some items from WWII are just currently becoming available this present decade.
*sorry, it was off topic*
Spot, I think those details are still considered closed at this point. It usually takes over fifty years before the National Archives releases those records to the public. Some items from WWII are just currently becoming available this present decade.
*sorry, it was off topic*
Churches Denounce Iraq War
I was quite impressed by the statement. When this happens, it means that there must be some political intent. This means either the WWC are shivering in their boots, or they know something we need to know about, or both.
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daffodil52
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
OpenMind wrote: I was quite impressed by the statement. When this happens, it means that there must be some political intent. This means either the WWC are shivering in their boots, or they know something we need to know about, or both.
another german......loldaffy52 Einstein oops
another german......loldaffy52 Einstein oops
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: the real reason is that spreading freedom is the right thing to do and the spreading of freedom allows for the best future of protection for us and the rest of the world.I'm all for it. Bring it on.
Far Rider, you live, at the best possible interpretation, in a nation of altruistic idealists. Your political masters, even at the best possible interpretation, are cynical lying self-serving thieves, and your military policy implementors are killers on a massive scale. Your recent political history includes, as a simple and unarguable instance, the arming of and intelligence-gathering for the Contra death squads in Nicaragua, an issue which should still be discussed in every school in the USA but which seems to have been swept under the carpet of expediency long since. If there is a hell, it is populated by those who choose to proliferate social injustice on a basis of desire rather than necessity, and your current administration is centred on that approach in both domestic and world affairs.
To break down "each terrorist we kill there is one less terrorist in the world period", where do you think terrorists come from? Labeling, primarily. If you don't like an internal resistance movement, you label it terrorist. The very word is so propagandist as to be void of meaning in popular use. The more people your administration and its tame intelligence service label terrorist, the more rhetorical its use becomes. Once you have 325,000 names on your terrorist watch list, it no longer lists threats to your national security, and that's what you had this year.
"if it were up to you, the Nazis would be in France still today" is sheer fantasy, I wasn't born before the fall of Berlin and you know it.
Far Rider, you live, at the best possible interpretation, in a nation of altruistic idealists. Your political masters, even at the best possible interpretation, are cynical lying self-serving thieves, and your military policy implementors are killers on a massive scale. Your recent political history includes, as a simple and unarguable instance, the arming of and intelligence-gathering for the Contra death squads in Nicaragua, an issue which should still be discussed in every school in the USA but which seems to have been swept under the carpet of expediency long since. If there is a hell, it is populated by those who choose to proliferate social injustice on a basis of desire rather than necessity, and your current administration is centred on that approach in both domestic and world affairs.
To break down "each terrorist we kill there is one less terrorist in the world period", where do you think terrorists come from? Labeling, primarily. If you don't like an internal resistance movement, you label it terrorist. The very word is so propagandist as to be void of meaning in popular use. The more people your administration and its tame intelligence service label terrorist, the more rhetorical its use becomes. Once you have 325,000 names on your terrorist watch list, it no longer lists threats to your national security, and that's what you had this year.
"if it were up to you, the Nazis would be in France still today" is sheer fantasy, I wasn't born before the fall of Berlin and you know it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: Well hmmm, I dont see both sides in this matter declaring peace or surrendering, so you cannot compare the two.You should address this to Accountable, not me. It was his point, not mine.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: For the first time in 60 years the common iraqi will get a say in how hes governedJack Straw, our Foreign Secretary, talked in Baghdad on Tuesday to al-Jaafari, the Prime Minister of Iraq in the Iraqi Transitional Government. The cartoon reaction is just too close to "the common iraqi will get a say in how hes governed" for me to resist the temptation.
Attached files
Attached files
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Spot:-6
Another good one you missed is Daniel Ellsberg. He did an excellent job of spreading the truth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Another good one you missed is Daniel Ellsberg. He did an excellent job of spreading the truth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Churches Denounce Iraq War
I have heard it said that the first thing to go in war is the truth.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Ted wrote: I have heard it said that the first thing to go in war is the truth.Samuel Johnson, "The Idler" magazine, November 11, 1758: "among the calamities of war may be jointly numbered the diminution of the love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates and credulity encourages."
He was justly scathing about patriotism too.
He was justly scathing about patriotism too.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Spot:-6
Thanks. An excellent quote. I didn'tt know where it came from.
Daniel Ellsberg did his best to recount the truth but it was not much appreciated by a government that needed the lies to sustain a war they finally lost. What a useless waste of lives.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thanks. An excellent quote. I didn'tt know where it came from.
Daniel Ellsberg did his best to recount the truth but it was not much appreciated by a government that needed the lies to sustain a war they finally lost. What a useless waste of lives.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Ted wrote: Daniel Ellsberg did his best to recount the truth but it was not much appreciated by a government that needed the lies to sustain a war they finally lost.I'm on his mailing list - it generates very few posts, but all of them are well worth getting. Free subscription is at http://www.ellsberg.net/contact.htm
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Spot:-6
Thanks for the link.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thanks for the link.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: I'd like to argue about this one.And, it would seem, a good deal else. OK, let's do it. I've only just got back in, I apologise for taking so long before responding.
Mister Administrator, Ladies and Gentlemen. This thread being about "Churches Denounce Iraq War", Far Rider and I are going to stop fighting in here. Over the next few days, we're going to have several threads instead prefixed "The Far Rider v Spot Debate: " in which this can get sorted. Accountable can referee if that's agreeable to Far Rider. The rules are the fairly standard two falls, two submissions or a knock-out to decide the victor in each contest, anyone can come into the threads to make up a temporary tag team, and may the best argument win.
The subject here, meanwhile, is still "Churches Denounce Iraq War". Carry on, the rest of you, that bit's equally interesting.
Mister Administrator, Ladies and Gentlemen. This thread being about "Churches Denounce Iraq War", Far Rider and I are going to stop fighting in here. Over the next few days, we're going to have several threads instead prefixed "The Far Rider v Spot Debate: " in which this can get sorted. Accountable can referee if that's agreeable to Far Rider. The rules are the fairly standard two falls, two submissions or a knock-out to decide the victor in each contest, anyone can come into the threads to make up a temporary tag team, and may the best argument win.
The subject here, meanwhile, is still "Churches Denounce Iraq War". Carry on, the rest of you, that bit's equally interesting.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Sure I did. I said pick a war. There's no difference once boots hit the ground and lives are being spent. War is war. If you don't want to discuss the aftermath which was the point of my post, that's fine. It's a bit off-topic anyway.
Actually I think there is a difference, ww2 was total all out war with the civillian populations involved and targeted by both sides as a matter of policy. The Iraq war is being fought on the daft illusion that yoiu can have a "limited" war to take out a regime without there being any long term consequences. After ww2 all sides were exhusted and most had had enough of fighting, most of europe was bombed, destroyed, fought over in one way or the other and populkations knew only too well what warfare was like. You also saw the end of empire and thye rebuilding of a bankrupt europe determined to put in place the poliytiacal structures that could stop it all happening again. The american and Britush people are hardly on the front line in this are they? There are no empires being broken up
or involved, or are there?
I would agree with you war is war, it's this notion that war can be clinical with only the bad guys getting hurt that gets me.:-5
Post ww2, where where do you want to start? Millions were killed in Russia and it's satellites states as Stalin still held sway-even troops that had been captured were treated as traitirs and sent to concentration camps.
In China the civil war didn't end until 1949. In French Indo China I don't know how many were killed but the americans got involved when the French pulled out-mainly at the behest of the americans who then went on to lose thousands of their own troops in a war that became known as the vietnam war then of course there are all the vietnamese civilians-then perhaps you don't se the Vietnam war having it's roots in conolial times.
Then there was the "War of the Running dogs" as it was known, or the Malayan Emergency to give it it's proper euphemism, which lasted from 1948 till 1960
Lost in the hubub over the Vietnam saga is the Malayan "Emergency" - the communist insurgency in Malaya from 1948 to 1960. I don't want to give away the ending, but THE BRITISH WON. Hmm... An insurgency, an occupying army, a populace supporting insurgents, and A DECISIVE DEFEAT OF THE INSURGENCY. Sound familiar? Except for the last part, I mean.
http://americanpundit.blog-city.com/the ... rbacks.htm
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/iss/archiv ... /4-05.html
Arguably the killing after ww2 never actually stopped.
posted by far rider
I may have read you wrong Spot. So I'll ask, would you have tried to stop Hitler?
If Spot will forgive my cheek, It's easy to look back and see where hitler was going but at the time it wasn't so apparent, many all round the world especialy in the "establishment" suported his stance against the treat of communist revolution-maybe basically they were frightenbed of the great, disenfranchised unwashed, unemployed and generally pissed off at the way things were.-even Churchilll at one point had troops ready to take to the streets
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redcly025.htm
So worried were they that they kept Scottish troops away in case they refused to fire on their own countrymen-but that is a bit off topic.
But you can also look at some of the things Hitler did to gain and keep power in 1933 his was a minority party that used spin and prejudice and hate to gain control playing on the fears of the population.
First of all you curb free speech and create an atmosphere where people are reluctant to speak out or criticise-after all it must be unpatriotic and if the govt says so it must be so-you target sections of the population that many don't think matter anyway like mental defectives, communists create a myth about secret conspiracies by subhumans to take over and destroy the way of life of a true aryan people, glorify the past and ancient myths to bould uop a legend of manifest destiny and a nations place in the world. Create a terrorost incident (no I don't mean 911 was a staged attack but crystal night was) and blame those you want to target so people are happy for you to start dealing with them and anyone criticising the course of action you condemn as unpatriotic. Control the mass media so people only hear what you want them to hear.
To get to my point I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that spot would have tried to stop Hitler, but would have found himself being accused of being unpatriotic-a communist sympathiser, undermining the troops as they went in to Czechoslovakia and a general all round bad guy for not going along with his country right or wrong and criticising the leader.
Soldiers are forever sorting out the messes that politicians make, most governments have always had better armies than they deserve and it's usually the most honourable that go first because it is the right thing to do. Questioning whether it is the right course of action is not undermining the troops it's sticking up for them. In the UK no politician would dare suggest that anyone opposed to the war is encouraging terrorists or failing to support the troops, it's sophistry of the powest kind, the loud cries of bollocks would drown them out.
Just out of curiosity if Bush could stand again do you think he would get re-elected?
Actually I think there is a difference, ww2 was total all out war with the civillian populations involved and targeted by both sides as a matter of policy. The Iraq war is being fought on the daft illusion that yoiu can have a "limited" war to take out a regime without there being any long term consequences. After ww2 all sides were exhusted and most had had enough of fighting, most of europe was bombed, destroyed, fought over in one way or the other and populkations knew only too well what warfare was like. You also saw the end of empire and thye rebuilding of a bankrupt europe determined to put in place the poliytiacal structures that could stop it all happening again. The american and Britush people are hardly on the front line in this are they? There are no empires being broken up
or involved, or are there?
I would agree with you war is war, it's this notion that war can be clinical with only the bad guys getting hurt that gets me.:-5
Post ww2, where where do you want to start? Millions were killed in Russia and it's satellites states as Stalin still held sway-even troops that had been captured were treated as traitirs and sent to concentration camps.
In China the civil war didn't end until 1949. In French Indo China I don't know how many were killed but the americans got involved when the French pulled out-mainly at the behest of the americans who then went on to lose thousands of their own troops in a war that became known as the vietnam war then of course there are all the vietnamese civilians-then perhaps you don't se the Vietnam war having it's roots in conolial times.
Then there was the "War of the Running dogs" as it was known, or the Malayan Emergency to give it it's proper euphemism, which lasted from 1948 till 1960
Lost in the hubub over the Vietnam saga is the Malayan "Emergency" - the communist insurgency in Malaya from 1948 to 1960. I don't want to give away the ending, but THE BRITISH WON. Hmm... An insurgency, an occupying army, a populace supporting insurgents, and A DECISIVE DEFEAT OF THE INSURGENCY. Sound familiar? Except for the last part, I mean.
http://americanpundit.blog-city.com/the ... rbacks.htm
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/iss/archiv ... /4-05.html
Arguably the killing after ww2 never actually stopped.
posted by far rider
I may have read you wrong Spot. So I'll ask, would you have tried to stop Hitler?
If Spot will forgive my cheek, It's easy to look back and see where hitler was going but at the time it wasn't so apparent, many all round the world especialy in the "establishment" suported his stance against the treat of communist revolution-maybe basically they were frightenbed of the great, disenfranchised unwashed, unemployed and generally pissed off at the way things were.-even Churchilll at one point had troops ready to take to the streets
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redcly025.htm
So worried were they that they kept Scottish troops away in case they refused to fire on their own countrymen-but that is a bit off topic.
But you can also look at some of the things Hitler did to gain and keep power in 1933 his was a minority party that used spin and prejudice and hate to gain control playing on the fears of the population.
First of all you curb free speech and create an atmosphere where people are reluctant to speak out or criticise-after all it must be unpatriotic and if the govt says so it must be so-you target sections of the population that many don't think matter anyway like mental defectives, communists create a myth about secret conspiracies by subhumans to take over and destroy the way of life of a true aryan people, glorify the past and ancient myths to bould uop a legend of manifest destiny and a nations place in the world. Create a terrorost incident (no I don't mean 911 was a staged attack but crystal night was) and blame those you want to target so people are happy for you to start dealing with them and anyone criticising the course of action you condemn as unpatriotic. Control the mass media so people only hear what you want them to hear.
To get to my point I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that spot would have tried to stop Hitler, but would have found himself being accused of being unpatriotic-a communist sympathiser, undermining the troops as they went in to Czechoslovakia and a general all round bad guy for not going along with his country right or wrong and criticising the leader.
Soldiers are forever sorting out the messes that politicians make, most governments have always had better armies than they deserve and it's usually the most honourable that go first because it is the right thing to do. Questioning whether it is the right course of action is not undermining the troops it's sticking up for them. In the UK no politician would dare suggest that anyone opposed to the war is encouraging terrorists or failing to support the troops, it's sophistry of the powest kind, the loud cries of bollocks would drown them out.
Just out of curiosity if Bush could stand again do you think he would get re-elected?
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Thanks for supporting my point. Even after a war, any war, is officially over, the fighting continues. It just doesn't make sense to expect every fighter to look up and say, "What? Oh, right then. I'll just go back to my old job."
Just as in Denmark, when zealots find themselves on the losing end of a proposition, they will do anything to rally others to their cause. It's to be expected. It's to be expected in Iraq as well. We can't give up on the peaceful majority simply because the zealot minority has more verve than we would like.
Just as in Denmark, when zealots find themselves on the losing end of a proposition, they will do anything to rally others to their cause. It's to be expected. It's to be expected in Iraq as well. We can't give up on the peaceful majority simply because the zealot minority has more verve than we would like.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Thanks for supporting my point. Even after a war, any war, is officially over, the fighting continues. It just doesn't make sense to expect every fighter to look up and say, "What? Oh, right then. I'll just go back to my old job."
Just as in Denmark, when zealots find themselves on the losing end of a proposition, they will do anything to rally others to their cause. It's to be expected. It's to be expected in Iraq as well. We can't give up on the peaceful majority simply because the zealot minority has more verve than we would like.
Destruction of holiest Shia shrine brings Iraq to the brink of civil war
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 347140.ece
No doubt some mullah somewhere is saying if we don't take action they will destroy our way of life and everything we believe in. Ironically Iran might have been a moderating voice on the southern shia and helped calm things now i suspect they might just add fuel to the flames by stiying out of it.
God save us from the religious.
Just as in Denmark, when zealots find themselves on the losing end of a proposition, they will do anything to rally others to their cause. It's to be expected. It's to be expected in Iraq as well. We can't give up on the peaceful majority simply because the zealot minority has more verve than we would like.
Destruction of holiest Shia shrine brings Iraq to the brink of civil war
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 347140.ece
No doubt some mullah somewhere is saying if we don't take action they will destroy our way of life and everything we believe in. Ironically Iran might have been a moderating voice on the southern shia and helped calm things now i suspect they might just add fuel to the flames by stiying out of it.
God save us from the religious.
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
The zealots. It's the zealots we need saving from.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: ahahahaha........ Me debate the great Spot? I don't think so. Me words dont mean the same as yours, we'd spend six years debating definitions!
But I agree to sort this out another time.
Hey come on guys that's one of the enjoyable things about this forum disagreement without resorting to personal insult
postede by far rider
You lean so far left your heads gonna fall off, buddy, you better jump right to keep it on.
I'm quite sure you did think of a different location for the head to be but refrained from being so childish. :yh_rotfl
posted by accountable
The zealots. It's the zealots we need saving from.
OK then god save us from religious zealots of all kinds.
Interesting thing though, should the church be listened to about moral issues and at what point should they keepmout of politics?
But I agree to sort this out another time.
Hey come on guys that's one of the enjoyable things about this forum disagreement without resorting to personal insult
postede by far rider
You lean so far left your heads gonna fall off, buddy, you better jump right to keep it on.
I'm quite sure you did think of a different location for the head to be but refrained from being so childish. :yh_rotfl
posted by accountable
The zealots. It's the zealots we need saving from.
OK then god save us from religious zealots of all kinds.
Interesting thing though, should the church be listened to about moral issues and at what point should they keepmout of politics?
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Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: ahahahaha........ Me debate the great Spot? I don't think so. Me words dont mean the same as yours, we'd spend six years debating definitions!
But I agree to sort this out another time.
When a spot becomes great, isn't it a stain? :-2
:wah:
But I agree to sort this out another time.
When a spot becomes great, isn't it a stain? :-2
:wah:
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: When a spot becomes great, isn't it a stain?You need more flexibility in your thinking. There have been holidays where I've been driving and heard "Hey, that looks like a great spot, let's stop here". There have been other occasions where it's been "oh yes, that's a great spot, don't stop!" - context is everything.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
[QUOTE=Bronwen]http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ ... _Iraq.html
U.S. church alliance denounces Iraq war
By BRIAN MURPHY, AP RELIGION WRITER
****************************
The letter that was sent can be read at: http://www.wcc-usa.org/news/news-contai ... -conf.html
Brian, who wrote the article you posted, quoted from this letter. It is Brian's words that say they said the churches denounce the Iraq war, but this letter is about more than the issue of war.
I read and interupted the letter differently. I saw the letter as hope for the future "....we come to you seeking to be partners in the search for unity and justice."
U.S. church alliance denounces Iraq war
By BRIAN MURPHY, AP RELIGION WRITER
****************************
The letter that was sent can be read at: http://www.wcc-usa.org/news/news-contai ... -conf.html
Brian, who wrote the article you posted, quoted from this letter. It is Brian's words that say they said the churches denounce the Iraq war, but this letter is about more than the issue of war.
I read and interupted the letter differently. I saw the letter as hope for the future "....we come to you seeking to be partners in the search for unity and justice."
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: You need more flexibility in your thinking. There have been holidays where I've been driving and heard "Hey, that looks like a great spot, let's stop here". There have been other occasions where it's been "oh yes, that's a great spot, don't stop!" - context is everything.
Ahhhh! Trust you to spot the difference. :p
Ahhhh! Trust you to spot the difference. :p
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daffodil52
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:45 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
one word..... i would sooner worship the sun in the sky....
add lease its their up high..... keeping us warm and help too, grow food for all of us
thats true ,,,, wotts god ever done for us....... they really have got a cheek...
... have us fight in like cat and dogs......god spell backward spells dog....
try it.....daffy 52 dust to dust ashes to ashes ,,,,,,and then gone with the wind ,,,,
and rain.... and the dry out by our loverly sun....... humans......
add lease its their up high..... keeping us warm and help too, grow food for all of us
thats true ,,,, wotts god ever done for us....... they really have got a cheek...
... have us fight in like cat and dogs......god spell backward spells dog....
try it.....daffy 52 dust to dust ashes to ashes ,,,,,,and then gone with the wind ,,,,
and rain.... and the dry out by our loverly sun....... humans......
Churches Denounce Iraq War
[QUOTE=Far Rider]
Here I give my opinion:
The World Council of Churches is nothing more than a political left socialist regime. I read provacative sedition. Plain and simple.
It is interesting how people can read the same letter and get different things from it.
I did not read this letter as "an illegal action inciting resistance to lawful authority and tending to cause the disruption or overthrow of the government"
And this is out and out socialism.
I looked at this more like an admonishment to "love one another".
Here I give my opinion:
The World Council of Churches is nothing more than a political left socialist regime. I read provacative sedition. Plain and simple.
It is interesting how people can read the same letter and get different things from it.
I did not read this letter as "an illegal action inciting resistance to lawful authority and tending to cause the disruption or overthrow of the government"
And this is out and out socialism.
I looked at this more like an admonishment to "love one another".