Any bets that the majority, if not all, of the signers of this self-flagellation net over $100K after charity?
In one breath they condemn the very action that would eliminate the wall between the starving people and the billions upon billions of dollars our dispicable nation has heaped upon their nations (pre-emptive attack against their totalitarian gov'ts), deny those billions upon billions, and condemn America for not taking action. Lord have mercy!
Churches Denounce Iraq War
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: The World Council of Churches is nothing more than a political left socialist regime.Regime? Regimes run nation states, Far Rider. The WCC is a discussion forum, just like this one. Well, not quite like this one, but it's not a regime.
I have a theory which is entirely my own, which is that anything you can't stomach you label commie, socialist or left wing practically at random. You're rather like Anastrophe in that regard.
Personally, to give you an example of genuine commie sentiment, I think the world would be a safer place if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen, and that the Russians have had a much leaner time of things in the last ten years than they had in the 80s. My impression is that a lot of Russians think just the same thing. Think about it. When the decisions of one man can affect the future of your family for generations to come, what kind of a man do you want making those decisions?
I have a theory which is entirely my own, which is that anything you can't stomach you label commie, socialist or left wing practically at random. You're rather like Anastrophe in that regard.
Personally, to give you an example of genuine commie sentiment, I think the world would be a safer place if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen, and that the Russians have had a much leaner time of things in the last ten years than they had in the 80s. My impression is that a lot of Russians think just the same thing. Think about it. When the decisions of one man can affect the future of your family for generations to come, what kind of a man do you want making those decisions?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: [...]
Personally, to give you an example of genuine commie sentiment, I think the world would be a safer place if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen, and that the Russians have had a much leaner time of things in the last ten years than they had in the 80s. My impression is that a lot of Russians think just the same thing. [...]
I truly don't want to pull this thread off-topic, BUT
Had the nation been run responsibly in the first place, the times would not have been as lean in the 80's, and would be downright prosperous now, imo.
Personally, to give you an example of genuine commie sentiment, I think the world would be a safer place if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen, and that the Russians have had a much leaner time of things in the last ten years than they had in the 80s. My impression is that a lot of Russians think just the same thing. [...]
I truly don't want to pull this thread off-topic, BUT
Had the nation been run responsibly in the first place, the times would not have been as lean in the 80's, and would be downright prosperous now, imo.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: I truly don't want to pull this thread off-topic, BUT
Had the nation been run responsibly in the first place, the times would not have been as lean in the 80's, and would be downright prosperous now, imo.Accountable! Stop taking bait left out for other people!
Oh... and as for "billions upon billions of dollars our dispicable nation has heaped upon their nations", can we agree that their nations would be better places without it? Or, if not that, at least that the US should stop giving any of it?
Had the nation been run responsibly in the first place, the times would not have been as lean in the 80's, and would be downright prosperous now, imo.Accountable! Stop taking bait left out for other people!
Oh... and as for "billions upon billions of dollars our dispicable nation has heaped upon their nations", can we agree that their nations would be better places without it? Or, if not that, at least that the US should stop giving any of it?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: Accountable! Stop taking bait left out for other people!
Oh... and as for "billions upon billions of dollars our dispicable nation has heaped upon their nations", can we agree that their nations would be better places without it? Or, if not that, at least that the US should stop giving any of it?
:eek: Wha'???
That's precisely against what the letter is saying. I'm shocked at your greed. Lord have mercy! :yh_pray If don't throw more money at the problem, how are we to make it go away?? :rolleyes:
What is that Einstein quote about levels of thinking to solve a problem?
Oh... and as for "billions upon billions of dollars our dispicable nation has heaped upon their nations", can we agree that their nations would be better places without it? Or, if not that, at least that the US should stop giving any of it?
:eek: Wha'???
That's precisely against what the letter is saying. I'm shocked at your greed. Lord have mercy! :yh_pray If don't throw more money at the problem, how are we to make it go away?? :rolleyes:
What is that Einstein quote about levels of thinking to solve a problem?
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: Spot that suggestion, if we took it, would kill hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Nice move.:rolleyes:FR, I don't want to horn into a private debate bewteen you and spot, during which I think both of you have made some good points, but...
It is killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis NOW.
FR, have you ever played poker? If so, you know that when you have a losing hand, you fold.
This war is senseless, useless, endless, illegal, and it, and our moron president, are bankrupting the USA. The reasons given for our becoming involved were ALL LIES.
No question that Saddam Hussein was a horrid, bloodthirsty terrorist, but like Tito in Yugoslavia, he held the country together. You also seem to have forgotten that he was no less terrible during all those years when the US supported him wholeheartedly. Now instead of one terrorist there are thousands of them. While I try to give moral support to our people there to the extent that is possible under the circumstances, they haven't, in all this time, even been able to restore the most basic services such as electricity.
You are welcome to your opinions, however shortsighted they may be, but you shouldn't impune the patriotism of spot and the rest of us who can see what you cannot. This is something we should NEVER have gotten involved in, and it just gets worse and worse day by day.
It is killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis NOW.
FR, have you ever played poker? If so, you know that when you have a losing hand, you fold.
This war is senseless, useless, endless, illegal, and it, and our moron president, are bankrupting the USA. The reasons given for our becoming involved were ALL LIES.
No question that Saddam Hussein was a horrid, bloodthirsty terrorist, but like Tito in Yugoslavia, he held the country together. You also seem to have forgotten that he was no less terrible during all those years when the US supported him wholeheartedly. Now instead of one terrorist there are thousands of them. While I try to give moral support to our people there to the extent that is possible under the circumstances, they haven't, in all this time, even been able to restore the most basic services such as electricity.
You are welcome to your opinions, however shortsighted they may be, but you shouldn't impune the patriotism of spot and the rest of us who can see what you cannot. This is something we should NEVER have gotten involved in, and it just gets worse and worse day by day.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: If don't throw more money at the problem, how are we to make it go away??I was wondering whether we agreed that the US should stop giving away any money on a charitable basis to other nations. I'm sure our reasons for holding that view in common, if we do, differ. Mine, for what it's worth, is that if the US doesn't throw money at the problem, the financial health of what was previously a recipient nation would improve. You doubtless have reasons of your own, and they may not overlap.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Bronwen wrote: This is something we should NEVER have gotten involved in, and it just gets worse and worse day by day./spot pushes a spare podium toward Bronwen and hands him the megaphone/
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: /spot pushes a spare podium toward Bronwen and hands [her] the megaphone/'And by the way', she says, megaphone in hand, 'here are some interesting stats:'
News Item (2000[last year of the Clinton administration]): National debt SHRINKING $18.6 billion a month.
News Item (2002): National debt growing $1.6 billion a month.
News Item (2004): National debt growing $61.8 billion a month.
News Item (2006): National debt growing $122.8 billion a month.
[Source: Chicago Sun-Times, 2-22-06]
That's a lot of money to be flushing down the Iraqi toilet.
News Item (2000[last year of the Clinton administration]): National debt SHRINKING $18.6 billion a month.
News Item (2002): National debt growing $1.6 billion a month.
News Item (2004): National debt growing $61.8 billion a month.
News Item (2006): National debt growing $122.8 billion a month.
[Source: Chicago Sun-Times, 2-22-06]
That's a lot of money to be flushing down the Iraqi toilet.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: I was wondering whether we agreed that the US should stop giving away any money on a charitable basis to other nations. I'm sure our reasons for holding that view in common, if we do, differ. Mine, for what it's worth, is that if the US doesn't throw money at the problem, the financial health of what was previously a recipient nation would improve. You doubtless have reasons of your own, and they may not overlap.
Constant giving weakens the recipient, just as over-fertilizing kills a plant. The implications go very deep. I believe you can apply that statement to individuals, groups, cities, and nations without a significant difference.
Constant giving weakens the recipient, just as over-fertilizing kills a plant. The implications go very deep. I believe you can apply that statement to individuals, groups, cities, and nations without a significant difference.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: [...]
Chruches, and church orginizations should be run by the corporate Spirit of God, to meet out the needs of those around them first, and worry little or not at all about the world political agenda.
AMEN!! :yh_clap
Chruches, and church orginizations should be run by the corporate Spirit of God, to meet out the needs of those around them first, and worry little or not at all about the world political agenda.
AMEN!! :yh_clap
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: Ya'll dont get it... there were ,are, and is thousands of terrorists to begin with, the issues set forth are so clouded now its actually mud.
Break it down, Radical Islam and every other religon cannot exist, including peace loving islamic people.
You mean in the view of Radical Islam, right?
Break it down, Radical Islam and every other religon cannot exist, including peace loving islamic people.
You mean in the view of Radical Islam, right?
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: 1. Ya'll dont get it... there were ,are, and is thousands of terrorists to begin with, the issues set forth are so clouded now its actually mud.
2. Break it down, Radical Islam and every other religon cannot exist, including peace loving islamic people.1. But not in Iraq, until now. That's why they're called 'insurgents'.
2. Here I tend to agree with you, but that hardly justifies our senseless fiasco in Iraq. Whatever happened to the quest for bin Laden? The only time you hear about him is when he issues a new statement mocking us.
2. Break it down, Radical Islam and every other religon cannot exist, including peace loving islamic people.1. But not in Iraq, until now. That's why they're called 'insurgents'.
2. Here I tend to agree with you, but that hardly justifies our senseless fiasco in Iraq. Whatever happened to the quest for bin Laden? The only time you hear about him is when he issues a new statement mocking us.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
[QUOTE=Far Rider]Think about this, do you really want a religious sect coming to power? I fear that more than I fear an evil dictator. Or are they one and the same?
NO! and probably.
Chruches, and church orginizations should be run by the corporate Spirit of God, QUOTE]
YES!
NO! and probably.
Chruches, and church orginizations should be run by the corporate Spirit of God, QUOTE]
YES!
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Constant giving weakens the recipient, just as over-fertilizing kills a plant. The implications go very deep. I believe you can apply that statement to individuals, groups, cities, and nations without a significant difference.Besides, think what it would do for international peace and national harmony worldwide if the US actually stopped these handouts beyond its borders. No more defered cheap discounted loans to pay for US arms shipments abroad, if the market price were demanded on each deal. No more shoring up of bloodsoaked Israeli belligerence, once the handouts are stopped. No more undercutting of internal markets in farm produce where boatloads of grain get siloed for distribution by recipient governments, feeding local corruption. The sooner you can persuade your cynical system to shut all that down, the better.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: Think about this, do you really want a religious sect coming to power? I fear that more than I fear an evil dictator. Or are they one and the same?Did you not notice, in passing, that Iraq was a secular republic before the US liberated it? That the liberation has exchanged "an evil dictator" for "a religious sect coming to power" - all you're not sure of yet is which of the two will get the upper hand. The loud noises you hear on the horizon are mosque domes crashing while that debate continues.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: Besides, think what it would do for international peace and national harmony worldwide if the US actually stopped these handouts beyond its borders. No more defered cheap discounted loans to pay for US arms shipments abroad, if the market price were demanded on each deal. No more shoring up of bloodsoaked Israeli belligerence, once the handouts are stopped. No more undercutting of internal markets in farm produce where boatloads of grain get siloed for distribution by recipient governments, feeding local corruption. The sooner you can persuade your cynical system to shut all that down, the better.
It goes on internally as well, primarily to maintain status quo (in farming, for instance). People are loathe to let go of the old ways, and will do almost anything to keep them. We fought a civil war because of it, remember.
But it's a catch-22. If we stop giving, we'll be condemned for being even more stingy than we're supposed to be already. Never mind that we're the #1 most charitable nation. It's so hard to convince people that sometimes the best action to take when fixing something is to exercise patience.
It goes on internally as well, primarily to maintain status quo (in farming, for instance). People are loathe to let go of the old ways, and will do almost anything to keep them. We fought a civil war because of it, remember.
But it's a catch-22. If we stop giving, we'll be condemned for being even more stingy than we're supposed to be already. Never mind that we're the #1 most charitable nation. It's so hard to convince people that sometimes the best action to take when fixing something is to exercise patience.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: But it's a catch-22. If we stop giving, we'll be condemned for being even more stingy than we're supposed to be already. Never mind that we're the #1 most charitable nation.You're already being accused of a lot worse than being stingy. That would be a very small price to pay for acting as I've suggested. A Catch-22 makes change in any direction impossible, I don't think you can boil the logic down to a simple statement which prevents action. The net worldwide response to US self-isolation on the charitable front would be one of relief and prayerful thanksgiving, so long as you go the whole way and don't pick and choose which bits to abandon.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: You're already being accused of a lot worse than being stingy. That would be a very small price to pay for acting as I've suggested. A Catch-22 makes change in any direction impossible, I don't think you can boil the logic down to a simple statement which prevents action. The net worldwide response to US self-isolation on the charitable front would be one of relief and prayerful thanksgiving, so long as you go the whole way and don't pick and choose which bits to abandon.
Oh I would never prohibit charity, I would only stop the gov't from doing it.
Oh I would never prohibit charity, I would only stop the gov't from doing it.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Oh I would never prohibit charity, I would only stop the gov't from doing it.It's only the government charity (within the definitions we adopted earlier) that I'm talking about. This has nothing to do with private initiatives. They're minimal in economic terms compared to the rest we've mentioned. I have an inbuilt revulsion to international missionary activity, but we'd need a different thread for that.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: It's only the government charity (within the definitions we adopted earlier) that I'm talking about. This has nothing to do with private initiatives. They're minimal in economic terms compared to the rest we've mentioned. I have an inbuilt revulsion to international missionary activity, but we'd need a different thread for that.
I've said a few times in here that the gov't shouldn't be in the charity business. Or the business business, for that matter.
I've said a few times in here that the gov't shouldn't be in the charity business. Or the business business, for that matter.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
There's a photo of the WCC-US delegation whose address to the Assembly we're discussing, on page 7 of the WCC Assembly daily newspaper at http://www.wcc-assembly.info/fileadmin/ ... _mundo.pdf , together with more content. I've not been able to find the full address anywhere. The address to the assembly which Bronwen's initial news report related to was made by the delegates on Saturday 18th, it's just coincidental that the WCC-US Letter to the Assembly, which FR copied into the thread, was released the same day.
If anyone turns the full address text up, could they please post a URL in here? It needs to match the phrasing of Post #1 in this thread, not the text of the letter from the US Conference for the World Council of Churches to the 9th Assembly of the World Council of Churches as at http://www.wcc-assembly.info/en/theme-i ... e-wcc.html
If anyone turns the full address text up, could they please post a URL in here? It needs to match the phrasing of Post #1 in this thread, not the text of the letter from the US Conference for the World Council of Churches to the 9th Assembly of the World Council of Churches as at http://www.wcc-assembly.info/en/theme-i ... e-wcc.html
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: Shall I suggest a feasible way out of Iraq right now? Bring President Hussain, that mythically unnatural US-invented "Hitler", out of his jail suite, dust him down, offer him back his wardrobe full of uniforms and palaces, and the last serviceman out can close the door behind him. Short of a clear and impendingly present danger to its national territory or nationals, the US has absolutely no business at all in putting any of its troops in harm's way abroad. That's as true today as it was in 2003. A ton of propaganda has gone around about Iraq posing a threat to the physical (as opposed to economic) security of the USA, and the bottom line is that it's all overwhelmingly untrue.
"How we got there is irrelevant until we get out" may be true from your perspective, but it is not justice. If the troops are left there to save face for the current US administration, then that's a very bad reason indeed.
Spat......... you touchie FEELY libs should be glad goddam INSANE is out of power..... try this link: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/G ... nglish.pdf
If you treated your women like this I would TAKE you OUT too!!!!!!!!
Or how about this one?: http://www.indict.org.uk/targetdetails. ... get=Saddam
Ya RIGHT......... give him back his rein.......... of HELL:
“Our quarrel is with Saddam, not the Iraqi people.
They deserve better. Iraq is a country with a very
talented population, a country that is potentially rich
and successful. We want to welcome it back into the
international community. We want the people to be
free to live fulfilling lives without the oppression and
terror of Saddam.â€Â
Prime Minister
Tony Blair,
TUC Conference, 10 September 2002
Is this too much to ask after reading of his atrocities I ASK?
Saddam Hussein's Crimes
Arrest of hundreds of Iraqi Islamic activists and the execution of five religious leaders in 1974 as chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council.
The execution of 21 Ba’ath Party leaders in 1979 in Iraq.
Unprovoked attack on Iran in 1980.
The arrest, torture, and execution of Ayatollah Mohamad baqir Al Sadr and his sister Amina Al in 1980.
During the Iran-Iraq war Hussein used chemical weapons and summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war.
The arrest of 90 members of the Al Hakim family and the execution of 16 members of that family in 1983.
During the Anfal campaign Hussein used chemical weapons on Kurdish cities including Halabja in 1988, in which as many as 5,000 people were killed, mostly civilians.
1990 invasion of Kuwait.
Forced deportation of Kurdish and Turkomen families to southern Iraq displacing of 900,000.
Entire populations of Marsh Arab and Shi'a Arab villages have been forcibly expelled. Government forces have burned their houses and fields, and demolished houses with bulldozers. Thousands of civilians were summarily executed.
Assassination of opposition figures outside Iraq such Hardan Al Tikriti, former Defense Minister, in Kuwait in 1973; Haj Sahal Al Salman in UAE in 1981; Sami Mahdi and Ni'ma Mohamad in Pakistan in 1987; Sayed Mahdi Al Hakim in Sudan in 1988; and Shaikh Talib Al Suhail in Lebanon in 1994.
Yes Spat he would be your first choice I am sure for president. Maybe we could get him in the Demoratt party and run him in 2008 here in the US?
Yippers put him back in power.........
OOPS I forgot he served his citizens well with the food for oil program.........
Yipp put him right back on top again as Spat thinks he is a REAL patriot....
"How we got there is irrelevant until we get out" may be true from your perspective, but it is not justice. If the troops are left there to save face for the current US administration, then that's a very bad reason indeed.
Spat......... you touchie FEELY libs should be glad goddam INSANE is out of power..... try this link: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/G ... nglish.pdf
If you treated your women like this I would TAKE you OUT too!!!!!!!!
Or how about this one?: http://www.indict.org.uk/targetdetails. ... get=Saddam
Ya RIGHT......... give him back his rein.......... of HELL:
“Our quarrel is with Saddam, not the Iraqi people.
They deserve better. Iraq is a country with a very
talented population, a country that is potentially rich
and successful. We want to welcome it back into the
international community. We want the people to be
free to live fulfilling lives without the oppression and
terror of Saddam.â€Â
Prime Minister
Tony Blair,
TUC Conference, 10 September 2002
Is this too much to ask after reading of his atrocities I ASK?
Saddam Hussein's Crimes
Arrest of hundreds of Iraqi Islamic activists and the execution of five religious leaders in 1974 as chairman of the Revolutionary Command Council.
The execution of 21 Ba’ath Party leaders in 1979 in Iraq.
Unprovoked attack on Iran in 1980.
The arrest, torture, and execution of Ayatollah Mohamad baqir Al Sadr and his sister Amina Al in 1980.
During the Iran-Iraq war Hussein used chemical weapons and summarily executed thousands of Iranian prisoners of war.
The arrest of 90 members of the Al Hakim family and the execution of 16 members of that family in 1983.
During the Anfal campaign Hussein used chemical weapons on Kurdish cities including Halabja in 1988, in which as many as 5,000 people were killed, mostly civilians.
1990 invasion of Kuwait.
Forced deportation of Kurdish and Turkomen families to southern Iraq displacing of 900,000.
Entire populations of Marsh Arab and Shi'a Arab villages have been forcibly expelled. Government forces have burned their houses and fields, and demolished houses with bulldozers. Thousands of civilians were summarily executed.
Assassination of opposition figures outside Iraq such Hardan Al Tikriti, former Defense Minister, in Kuwait in 1973; Haj Sahal Al Salman in UAE in 1981; Sami Mahdi and Ni'ma Mohamad in Pakistan in 1987; Sayed Mahdi Al Hakim in Sudan in 1988; and Shaikh Talib Al Suhail in Lebanon in 1994.
Yes Spat he would be your first choice I am sure for president. Maybe we could get him in the Demoratt party and run him in 2008 here in the US?
Yippers put him back in power.........
OOPS I forgot he served his citizens well with the food for oil program.........
Yipp put him right back on top again as Spat thinks he is a REAL patriot....
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Churches Denounce Iraq War
BTS wrote: Spat......... you touchie FEELY libs should be glad goddam INSANE is out of powerI'm not touchie-feelie. I'm not a liberal. I'm not at all glad that "goddam INSANE" is out of power (but then, I'm glad you guys still have your Republican Administration at the helm). And my name's not Spat.
Oh - and, thinking about it - "If you treated your women like this I would TAKE you OUT too!!!!!!!!" makes the second death threat aimed at me in this thread. I don't recall that happening before - one's more typical, but two is disheartening. Can we tone that down a bit?
Oh - and, thinking about it - "If you treated your women like this I would TAKE you OUT too!!!!!!!!" makes the second death threat aimed at me in this thread. I don't recall that happening before - one's more typical, but two is disheartening. Can we tone that down a bit?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
spot wrote: I'm not touchie-feelie. I'm not a liberal. I'm not at all glad that "goddam INSANE" is out of power (but then, I'm glad you guys still have your Republican Administration at the helm). And my name's not Spat.
Oh - and, thinking about it - "If you treated your women like this I would TAKE you OUT too!!!!!!!!" makes the second death threat aimed at me in this thread. I don't recall that happening before - one's more typical, but two is disheartening. Can we tone that down a bit?
:guitarist
The first being?
Oh - and, thinking about it - "If you treated your women like this I would TAKE you OUT too!!!!!!!!" makes the second death threat aimed at me in this thread. I don't recall that happening before - one's more typical, but two is disheartening. Can we tone that down a bit?
:guitarist
The first being?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Churches Denounce Iraq War
BTS wrote: The first being?I'd rather not mention the first, it would only be inflammatory.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Just as a mid-debate summary, BTS, Spot, and I agree that gov't should stay the hell out of the charity business and churches should stay the hell out of the war business. I can't speak for the other participants in this regard.
Is that about right? That's two thing the 3 of us agree on?
Is that about right? That's two thing the 3 of us agree on?
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Just as a mid-debate summary, BTS, Spot, and I agree that gov't should stay the hell out of the charity business and churches should stay the hell out of the war business. I can't speak for the other participants in this regard.
Is that about right? That's two thing the 3 of us agree on?I'd sign that declaration, yes. I'm all in favor of any church opinionating on political matters where ethics are involved in an issue. I'm dead set against theocracy. Churches officially sanctioning war or participating in them militarily would by pretty retrograde too, of course, but we haven't seen that in a while.
Is that about right? That's two thing the 3 of us agree on?I'd sign that declaration, yes. I'm all in favor of any church opinionating on political matters where ethics are involved in an issue. I'm dead set against theocracy. Churches officially sanctioning war or participating in them militarily would by pretty retrograde too, of course, but we haven't seen that in a while.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Just as a mid-debate summary, BTS, Spot, and I agree that gov't should stay the hell out of the charity business and churches should stay the hell out of the war business. I can't speak for the other participants in this regard.
Is that about right? That's two thing the 3 of us agree on?
I do agree............. the only problem is this is a HOLY war. Always has been and ALWAYS will be. Were we not attacked in the name of Allah?
What if a bunch of zealots attacked Iran (as WE were) in the name of christianity?
Would we denounce them and rid them of their power in any way possible?
I propose we WOULD
Is that about right? That's two thing the 3 of us agree on?
I do agree............. the only problem is this is a HOLY war. Always has been and ALWAYS will be. Were we not attacked in the name of Allah?
What if a bunch of zealots attacked Iran (as WE were) in the name of christianity?
Would we denounce them and rid them of their power in any way possible?
I propose we WOULD
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
Churches Denounce Iraq War
BTS wrote: I do agree............. the only problem is this is a HOLY war. Always has been and ALWAYS will be. Were we not attacked in the name of Allah?Just for clarification - are you saying the US is, in your opinion, engaged in a war on Islam? I recognise that many Muslims think that, but it's not common to see it stated by an American.
Relevant to this question is the nationality of the September Eleventh terrorists - 15 were from Saudi Arabia, two were from the United Arab Emirates, one was from Lebanon and one from Egypt. No credible link has been published between any of them and Iraq, or any of them and Iran, though very firm links have been established to exist between one of them at least and the Pakistani Intelligence Service.
Relevant to this question is the nationality of the September Eleventh terrorists - 15 were from Saudi Arabia, two were from the United Arab Emirates, one was from Lebanon and one from Egypt. No credible link has been published between any of them and Iraq, or any of them and Iran, though very firm links have been established to exist between one of them at least and the Pakistani Intelligence Service.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
BTS wrote: I do agree............. the only problem is this is a HOLY war. Always has been and ALWAYS will be. Were we not attacked in the name of Allah?
What if a bunch of zealots attacked Iran (as WE were) in the name of christianity?
Would we denounce them and rid them of their power in any way possible?
I propose we WOULDIt's their holy war, not ours. For us, it's just a garden-variety war.
What if a bunch of zealots attacked Iran (as WE were) in the name of christianity?
Would we denounce them and rid them of their power in any way possible?
I propose we WOULDIt's their holy war, not ours. For us, it's just a garden-variety war.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
"Garden variety war?"
I'm a little shocked. Perhaps it looks that way from your side of the fence.
As far as terrorists and terrorism goes...the targeting of civilians is an extremely common thing. Whether the actions are taken by villians or heroes depends on who is making the speech or writing the dictionary. Sanctions are the worst form of terrorism killing millions of women and children.
But the sanctions are shocking not only because of the extent of the human damage, but also because the suffering has been borne primarily by women, children, the elderly, the sick, and the poor; the state and the wealthy classes seem to be inconvenienced, but are otherwise exempt from extreme hardship.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm
Sanctions directly target civilians and have not shown to be effective as a political or military ploy.
Osama Bin Laden stated that civilian deaths are necessary to draw attention and support to al Qaeda. He stated that civilian casualties were "unavoidable in the war on the U.S. and western imperialists, and even necessary to our goal of toppling the fascist U.S. regime."
compare
The U.S. refuses to count or acknowledge the civilian dead in either war, saying that it would be counter productive and achieve no pertinent outcome. Yet the U.S. is the first one to quote all the civilian deaths when a terrorist group or rebel group bombs a building or engages in street fighting.
The U.S. excused all the civilian deaths in Iraq with this statement from the Pentagon. "As long as the people of Iraq have been liberated our goal was achieved. If some civilian casualties occurred in the liberation, that was most unfortunate. You have some inevitable civilian casualties in any war. Civilians always die, that's a fact you can't deny. Everyone agrees on this. You have to look at the fact that Iraq has had a regime change and is now liberated. That makes any inevitable sacrifice worthwhile."
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le4487.htm
(just in case you are wondering about my *personal* opinion Accountable, I think the US is the biggest terrorist organization of them all)
I'm a little shocked. Perhaps it looks that way from your side of the fence.
As far as terrorists and terrorism goes...the targeting of civilians is an extremely common thing. Whether the actions are taken by villians or heroes depends on who is making the speech or writing the dictionary. Sanctions are the worst form of terrorism killing millions of women and children.
But the sanctions are shocking not only because of the extent of the human damage, but also because the suffering has been borne primarily by women, children, the elderly, the sick, and the poor; the state and the wealthy classes seem to be inconvenienced, but are otherwise exempt from extreme hardship.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm
Sanctions directly target civilians and have not shown to be effective as a political or military ploy.
Osama Bin Laden stated that civilian deaths are necessary to draw attention and support to al Qaeda. He stated that civilian casualties were "unavoidable in the war on the U.S. and western imperialists, and even necessary to our goal of toppling the fascist U.S. regime."
compare
The U.S. refuses to count or acknowledge the civilian dead in either war, saying that it would be counter productive and achieve no pertinent outcome. Yet the U.S. is the first one to quote all the civilian deaths when a terrorist group or rebel group bombs a building or engages in street fighting.
The U.S. excused all the civilian deaths in Iraq with this statement from the Pentagon. "As long as the people of Iraq have been liberated our goal was achieved. If some civilian casualties occurred in the liberation, that was most unfortunate. You have some inevitable civilian casualties in any war. Civilians always die, that's a fact you can't deny. Everyone agrees on this. You have to look at the fact that Iraq has had a regime change and is now liberated. That makes any inevitable sacrifice worthwhile."
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le4487.htm
(just in case you are wondering about my *personal* opinion Accountable, I think the US is the biggest terrorist organization of them all)
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Accountable
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- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
koan wrote: "Garden variety war?"
I'm a little shocked. Perhaps it looks that way from your side of the fence.
As far as terrorists and terrorism goes...the targeting of civilians is an extremely common thing. Whether the actions are taken by villians or heroes depends on who is making the speech or writing the dictionary. Sanctions are the worst form of terrorism killing millions of women and children.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm
Sanctions directly target civilians and have not shown to be effective as a political or military ploy.
compare
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le4487.htm
(just in case you are wondering about my *personal* opinion Accountable, I think the US is the biggest terrorist organization of them all)
It's good to see that you prefer military action over economic sanctions. You should be happy then with our actions in Iraq, which prevented years upon years of additional UN sanctions.
As for the last statement: your definition of terrorism must be as broad as the Montana sky to include the American military actions. I do trust you are boycotting any retailers of American products in your oh-so-independent Canada.
I'm a little shocked. Perhaps it looks that way from your side of the fence.
As far as terrorists and terrorism goes...the targeting of civilians is an extremely common thing. Whether the actions are taken by villians or heroes depends on who is making the speech or writing the dictionary. Sanctions are the worst form of terrorism killing millions of women and children.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm
Sanctions directly target civilians and have not shown to be effective as a political or military ploy.
compare
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le4487.htm
(just in case you are wondering about my *personal* opinion Accountable, I think the US is the biggest terrorist organization of them all)
It's good to see that you prefer military action over economic sanctions. You should be happy then with our actions in Iraq, which prevented years upon years of additional UN sanctions.
As for the last statement: your definition of terrorism must be as broad as the Montana sky to include the American military actions. I do trust you are boycotting any retailers of American products in your oh-so-independent Canada.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Acc :-6
I wonder if you could define "garden-variety war" for me?
My definition of terrorism is the same given by the US government, though their definitions of non-combatants and military targets could use a little more work...or a little less.
Military war at least gives civilians a better chance at living though I prefer Ghandi's methods.
Economic sanctions are rapidly becoming one of the major tools of international governance of the post-Cold War era. The UN Security Council, empowered under Article 16 of the UN Charter to use economic measures to address "threats of aggression" and "breaches of peace," approved partial or comprehensive sanctions on only two occasions from 1945 to 1990. By contrast, since 1990 the Security Council has imposed sanctions on eleven nations, including the former Yugoslavia, Libya, Somalia, Liberia, Haiti, and several other nations. However, the U.S. has imposed sanctions, unilaterally or with other nations, far more frequently than any other nation in the world, or any multinational body in the world, including the United Nations. More than two-thirds of the sixty-plus sanctions cases between 1945 were initiated and maintained by the United States, and three-quarters of these cases involved unilateral U.S. action without significant participation by other countries.(1) Thus, while the question of ethical legitimacy has implications for the UN strategies of international governance, it has far greater implications for the U.S., which uses sanctions more frequently and in many more contexts, from trade regimes and human rights enforcement to its efforts to maintain regional and global hegemony.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm ... gordon.htm
(In case your wondering, Accountable, my *personal* opinion is that he got carried away and wrecked his facts with an impassioned opinion at the end of the quoted section. It still doesn't reduce the facts though.)
I wonder if you could define "garden-variety war" for me?
My definition of terrorism is the same given by the US government, though their definitions of non-combatants and military targets could use a little more work...or a little less.
Military war at least gives civilians a better chance at living though I prefer Ghandi's methods.
Economic sanctions are rapidly becoming one of the major tools of international governance of the post-Cold War era. The UN Security Council, empowered under Article 16 of the UN Charter to use economic measures to address "threats of aggression" and "breaches of peace," approved partial or comprehensive sanctions on only two occasions from 1945 to 1990. By contrast, since 1990 the Security Council has imposed sanctions on eleven nations, including the former Yugoslavia, Libya, Somalia, Liberia, Haiti, and several other nations. However, the U.S. has imposed sanctions, unilaterally or with other nations, far more frequently than any other nation in the world, or any multinational body in the world, including the United Nations. More than two-thirds of the sixty-plus sanctions cases between 1945 were initiated and maintained by the United States, and three-quarters of these cases involved unilateral U.S. action without significant participation by other countries.(1) Thus, while the question of ethical legitimacy has implications for the UN strategies of international governance, it has far greater implications for the U.S., which uses sanctions more frequently and in many more contexts, from trade regimes and human rights enforcement to its efforts to maintain regional and global hegemony.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm ... gordon.htm
(In case your wondering, Accountable, my *personal* opinion is that he got carried away and wrecked his facts with an impassioned opinion at the end of the quoted section. It still doesn't reduce the facts though.)
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Almost forgot...I'm an avid anticonsumer. I don't support most products. Funny enough I had just thought about boycotting the US last week. I don't think it will be hard. Just takes some research on food companies. 
edit to add: 15 seconds later I located a Zehr's that is very conveniently located. On to the actual products list.
edit to add: 15 seconds later I located a Zehr's that is very conveniently located. On to the actual products list.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Churches Denounce Iraq War
koan wrote: Acc :-6
I wonder if you could define "garden-variety war" for me?
My definition of terrorism is the same given by the US government, though their definitions of non-combatants and military targets could use a little more work...or a little less.
Military war at least gives civilians a better chance at living though I prefer Ghandi's methods.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm ... gordon.htm
(In case your wondering, Accountable, my *personal* opinion is that he got carried away and wrecked his facts with an impassioned opinion at the end of the quoted section. It still doesn't reduce the facts though.)
Garden-variety means typical. I used the word to indicate that, while the Islamic extremists are in the midst of a holy war, we are in a more conventional war - inthat the enemy has attacked us, so we go root him out and kill him, not because God said so, but simply because we were attacked first. Of course, you have a different view, especially since you claim that we are terrorists by our own definition.
I am curious, though. Why do you lower yourself to converse with such slime, as you apparently see us? Damn! I'm surprised you don't move to the northeast corner of Canada and learn to speak French, just to distance yourself from us.
What kind of computer do you use? Is Intel inside?
I wonder if you could define "garden-variety war" for me?
My definition of terrorism is the same given by the US government, though their definitions of non-combatants and military targets could use a little more work...or a little less.
Military war at least gives civilians a better chance at living though I prefer Ghandi's methods.
http://www.crosscurrents.org/gordon.htm ... gordon.htm
(In case your wondering, Accountable, my *personal* opinion is that he got carried away and wrecked his facts with an impassioned opinion at the end of the quoted section. It still doesn't reduce the facts though.)
Garden-variety means typical. I used the word to indicate that, while the Islamic extremists are in the midst of a holy war, we are in a more conventional war - inthat the enemy has attacked us, so we go root him out and kill him, not because God said so, but simply because we were attacked first. Of course, you have a different view, especially since you claim that we are terrorists by our own definition.
I am curious, though. Why do you lower yourself to converse with such slime, as you apparently see us? Damn! I'm surprised you don't move to the northeast corner of Canada and learn to speak French, just to distance yourself from us.
What kind of computer do you use? Is Intel inside?
Churches Denounce Iraq War
I do separate the actions of a country's government from the civilians that live in it. And I'm not the only one to say that the US are terrorists. Check out Noam Chomsky, he's been saying it for decades. (Noam Chomsky: most important intellectual alive)
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Garden-variety means typical. I used the word to indicate that, while the Islamic extremists are in the midst of a holy war, we are in a more conventional war - inthat the enemy has attacked us, so we go root him out and kill him, not because God said so, but simply because we were attacked first. Of course, you have a different view, especially since you claim that we are terrorists by our own definition.
Forgive my exclusion of the latter part of your post. I try to humour your ad hominems but prefer to focus on the actual topics at hand.
It is sad when war can be called typical in any fashion. I don't really believe that any two wars are alike. To call a war "garden-variety" really devalues the deaths of all involved. If you are implying that the war in Iraq is connected to the 9/11 bombings I'd be really keen to see the missing proof that everyone's been looking for on that matter. Do you have evidence of the link? I'd be impressed.
Forgive my exclusion of the latter part of your post. I try to humour your ad hominems but prefer to focus on the actual topics at hand.
It is sad when war can be called typical in any fashion. I don't really believe that any two wars are alike. To call a war "garden-variety" really devalues the deaths of all involved. If you are implying that the war in Iraq is connected to the 9/11 bombings I'd be really keen to see the missing proof that everyone's been looking for on that matter. Do you have evidence of the link? I'd be impressed.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: I copied the whole letter here:
Here I give my opinion:
The World Council of Churches is nothing more than a political left socialist regime. I read provacative sedition. Plain and simple.
posted by far rider
And this is out and out socialism.
Please, all of you in the WCC, America: Take solace in their hospitality and move out! You can share your part of the wealth you take with you.
In a free country how is it seditious to criticise the actions of the government? To be forced to conform and be told to keep your opinion to yourself that is communism, or fascism-pick your ism
Is there any of the factual statements they make you take issue with? Such as the pre-emptive war one.
posted by far rider
And this is out and out socialism.
We confess that we have failed to raise a prophetic voice loud enough and persistent enough to call our nation to seek just economic structures so that sharing by all will mean scarcity for none.
I would be curious to see why you think a desire for social justice is the same thing as socialism. Do you really prefer a situation where the strong are free to take what they want with no restraint on their actions?
posted by far rider
For me its simple, I doubt the sencerity of the WCC. They have a political agenda. Call them a group then if you'd like to. To me they are religious MEN, and they do not speak for God.
Think about this, do you really want a religious sect coming to power? I fear that more than I fear an evil dictator. Or are they one and the same?
Chruches, and church orginizations should be run by the corporate Spirit of God, to meet out the needs of those around them first, and worry little or not at all about the world political agenda.
Kind of agree with you. I tend to associate religon with hypocrisy and have little time for established religon but: If you as a christian-muslim/hindu whatever see somethuing morally wrong should you keep silent? Where do you draw the line and leave polituicians to take actions which means your fellow men will face the dilemma of having to kill at the behest of a government another.
Would you prefer the churches supported war? Evil men do evil things for evil reasons but it takes religon to make convince men to do evil things for good reasons.
Who decides what the corporate spirit of god is? I suspect sectarianism is not as rife in the US as it is here. the virulence of the debate that would start has to be seen to be believed, most of the religious wars in Europe were about exactly that issue. Catholics and protestants could gave the muslims lesons on sectarian warfare.
posted by BTS
Prime Minister
Tony Blair,
TUC Conference, 10 September 2002
Is this too much to ask after reading of his atrocities I ASK?
I'm sorry but quoting a prime minister known to have lied to parliament and altered intelligence reports to make the case for war as someone we should listen to? You have got to be joking.
The British government like the American cheerfully ignored saddam's atrocities`against his own people when it suited them to do so. To claim the moral high groud in this is sophistry that insulkts the intelligence of the British electorate-most of whom incidentally are hostile to our involvement in Iraq.
Now tell me which western power now imprisons people without trial and allows the use of torture to get information?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01388.html
VICE PRESIDENT Cheney is aggressively pursuing an initiative that may be unprecedented for an elected official of the executive branch: He is proposing that Congress legally authorize human rights abuses by Americans. "Cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment of prisoners is banned by an international treaty negotiated by the Reagan administration and ratified by the United States. The State Department annually issues a report criticizing other governments for violating it. Now Mr. Cheney is asking Congress to approve legal language that would allow the CIA to commit such abuses against foreign prisoners it is holding abroad. In other words, this vice president has become an open advocate of torture.
All done in your name-here do you draw the line and how do you decide those accused are guilty? When you leave it up to a government mimistry you are on a slippery slope, there is a seperation between judiciary and legislature for very good reasons.
So far alqueda is winning as any kind of moral high ground has been given up by the west as it "makes laws to deal with the enemy we now face even if it means giving up some of our essential freedoms"
load of cobblers that arguement is. Why is anyonme daft enough to fall for it?
posted by accountable
Garden-variety means typical. I used the word to indicate that, while the Islamic extremists are in the midst of a holy war, we are in a more conventional war - inthat the enemy has attacked us, so we go root him out and kill him, not because God said so, but simply because we were attacked first. Of course, you have a different view, especially since you claim that we are terrorists by our own definition.
I'm all in favour of going after terrorists-so what is going on in Iraq. Pretend all you like ignore contrary evidence all you like, kid yourself that this comes out of nowhere for no reason but attacking Iraq far from fighting terrorism has breathed new life in to them and ensured what was a little flame becomes a conflagration.
A war against terrorism is anything but a conventional war, that's why using conventional warfare is not going to work if nything past experience shows it makes things easier for the terrorist by gaining them support.
posted by spot.
Personally, to give you an example of genuine commie sentiment, I think the world would be a safer place if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen, and that the Russians have had a much leaner time of things in the last ten years than they had in the 80s. My impression is that a lot of Russians think just the same thing. Think about it. When the decisions of one man can affect the future of your family for generations to come, what kind of a man do you want making those decisions?
No offence spot bit I think that is a load of cobblers. When the berlin wall came down it was a national movement by ordinary people that had finally had enbough of being told what to do and no longer believed in their leaders. Many on the left can't accept that people who are capable of thinking for themselves are not necessarily going to agree with them therefore they are-deluded, ignorant of the true sutuation, duped by capitalist propaganda from the west. As to what kind of man do you want making those decisions the fact the fact that people are now asking the question says a lot, maybe they are going top start demending they have real say.
Why do people assume liberals are` wishy washy?
from the Oxford English dictionary
liberal
• adjective 1 willing to respect and accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own. 2 (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms. 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform. 4 (Liberal) (in the UK) relating to the Liberal Democrat party. 5 (especially of an interpretation of a law) not strictly literal. 6 given, used, or giving in generous amounts. 7 (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.
I'm not entirely convinced that the definition in an American dictionary would be radically different. Essentially a liberal believes in individual freedom but might argue with others about how to go about it.
As a political philosophy it has been incredibly sussessful in shaping the world as we know it. The very fact that most of the people on this forum live in liberal democracies is testimony to that fact. Far from being wishy washy generally speaking liberals are people who are perhaps slow to take action but who you really should not provoke by tampering with their freedom. because when push comes to shove they don't back down, which is why we all live in free societies.
It was also to a large extent-imo-a creation of the UK whih is why communism or fascism never really stood a chance of getting a grip here-people were too well educated to fall for them as they saw beyond the idealistic rhetoric to the horror beyond. We weren't granted pur freedom and parliamentary democracy we took it at the point of a sword.
Here I give my opinion:
The World Council of Churches is nothing more than a political left socialist regime. I read provacative sedition. Plain and simple.
posted by far rider
And this is out and out socialism.
Please, all of you in the WCC, America: Take solace in their hospitality and move out! You can share your part of the wealth you take with you.
In a free country how is it seditious to criticise the actions of the government? To be forced to conform and be told to keep your opinion to yourself that is communism, or fascism-pick your ism
Is there any of the factual statements they make you take issue with? Such as the pre-emptive war one.
posted by far rider
And this is out and out socialism.
We confess that we have failed to raise a prophetic voice loud enough and persistent enough to call our nation to seek just economic structures so that sharing by all will mean scarcity for none.
I would be curious to see why you think a desire for social justice is the same thing as socialism. Do you really prefer a situation where the strong are free to take what they want with no restraint on their actions?
posted by far rider
For me its simple, I doubt the sencerity of the WCC. They have a political agenda. Call them a group then if you'd like to. To me they are religious MEN, and they do not speak for God.
Think about this, do you really want a religious sect coming to power? I fear that more than I fear an evil dictator. Or are they one and the same?
Chruches, and church orginizations should be run by the corporate Spirit of God, to meet out the needs of those around them first, and worry little or not at all about the world political agenda.
Kind of agree with you. I tend to associate religon with hypocrisy and have little time for established religon but: If you as a christian-muslim/hindu whatever see somethuing morally wrong should you keep silent? Where do you draw the line and leave polituicians to take actions which means your fellow men will face the dilemma of having to kill at the behest of a government another.
Would you prefer the churches supported war? Evil men do evil things for evil reasons but it takes religon to make convince men to do evil things for good reasons.
Who decides what the corporate spirit of god is? I suspect sectarianism is not as rife in the US as it is here. the virulence of the debate that would start has to be seen to be believed, most of the religious wars in Europe were about exactly that issue. Catholics and protestants could gave the muslims lesons on sectarian warfare.
posted by BTS
Prime Minister
Tony Blair,
TUC Conference, 10 September 2002
Is this too much to ask after reading of his atrocities I ASK?
I'm sorry but quoting a prime minister known to have lied to parliament and altered intelligence reports to make the case for war as someone we should listen to? You have got to be joking.
The British government like the American cheerfully ignored saddam's atrocities`against his own people when it suited them to do so. To claim the moral high groud in this is sophistry that insulkts the intelligence of the British electorate-most of whom incidentally are hostile to our involvement in Iraq.
Now tell me which western power now imprisons people without trial and allows the use of torture to get information?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01388.html
VICE PRESIDENT Cheney is aggressively pursuing an initiative that may be unprecedented for an elected official of the executive branch: He is proposing that Congress legally authorize human rights abuses by Americans. "Cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment of prisoners is banned by an international treaty negotiated by the Reagan administration and ratified by the United States. The State Department annually issues a report criticizing other governments for violating it. Now Mr. Cheney is asking Congress to approve legal language that would allow the CIA to commit such abuses against foreign prisoners it is holding abroad. In other words, this vice president has become an open advocate of torture.
All done in your name-here do you draw the line and how do you decide those accused are guilty? When you leave it up to a government mimistry you are on a slippery slope, there is a seperation between judiciary and legislature for very good reasons.
So far alqueda is winning as any kind of moral high ground has been given up by the west as it "makes laws to deal with the enemy we now face even if it means giving up some of our essential freedoms"
load of cobblers that arguement is. Why is anyonme daft enough to fall for it?
posted by accountable
Garden-variety means typical. I used the word to indicate that, while the Islamic extremists are in the midst of a holy war, we are in a more conventional war - inthat the enemy has attacked us, so we go root him out and kill him, not because God said so, but simply because we were attacked first. Of course, you have a different view, especially since you claim that we are terrorists by our own definition.
I'm all in favour of going after terrorists-so what is going on in Iraq. Pretend all you like ignore contrary evidence all you like, kid yourself that this comes out of nowhere for no reason but attacking Iraq far from fighting terrorism has breathed new life in to them and ensured what was a little flame becomes a conflagration.
A war against terrorism is anything but a conventional war, that's why using conventional warfare is not going to work if nything past experience shows it makes things easier for the terrorist by gaining them support.
posted by spot.
Personally, to give you an example of genuine commie sentiment, I think the world would be a safer place if the Soviet Union hadn't fallen, and that the Russians have had a much leaner time of things in the last ten years than they had in the 80s. My impression is that a lot of Russians think just the same thing. Think about it. When the decisions of one man can affect the future of your family for generations to come, what kind of a man do you want making those decisions?
No offence spot bit I think that is a load of cobblers. When the berlin wall came down it was a national movement by ordinary people that had finally had enbough of being told what to do and no longer believed in their leaders. Many on the left can't accept that people who are capable of thinking for themselves are not necessarily going to agree with them therefore they are-deluded, ignorant of the true sutuation, duped by capitalist propaganda from the west. As to what kind of man do you want making those decisions the fact the fact that people are now asking the question says a lot, maybe they are going top start demending they have real say.
Why do people assume liberals are` wishy washy?
from the Oxford English dictionary
liberal
• adjective 1 willing to respect and accept behaviour or opinions different from one’s own. 2 (of a society, law, etc.) favourable to individual rights and freedoms. 3 (in a political context) favouring individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform. 4 (Liberal) (in the UK) relating to the Liberal Democrat party. 5 (especially of an interpretation of a law) not strictly literal. 6 given, used, or giving in generous amounts. 7 (of education) concerned with broadening general knowledge and experience.
I'm not entirely convinced that the definition in an American dictionary would be radically different. Essentially a liberal believes in individual freedom but might argue with others about how to go about it.
As a political philosophy it has been incredibly sussessful in shaping the world as we know it. The very fact that most of the people on this forum live in liberal democracies is testimony to that fact. Far from being wishy washy generally speaking liberals are people who are perhaps slow to take action but who you really should not provoke by tampering with their freedom. because when push comes to shove they don't back down, which is why we all live in free societies.
It was also to a large extent-imo-a creation of the UK whih is why communism or fascism never really stood a chance of getting a grip here-people were too well educated to fall for them as they saw beyond the idealistic rhetoric to the horror beyond. We weren't granted pur freedom and parliamentary democracy we took it at the point of a sword.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
koan wrote: I do separate the actions of a country's government from the civilians that live in it. And I'm not the only one to say that the US are terrorists. Check out Noam Chomsky, he's been saying it for decades. (Noam Chomsky: most important intellectual alive)
Most important?? In whose view?
Most important?? In whose view?
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
koan wrote: Forgive my exclusion of the latter part of your post. I try to humour your ad hominems but prefer to focus on the actual topics at hand.That hurts, koan. I addressed your ad hominems. :-1
koan wrote: It is sad when war can be called typical in any fashion. I don't really believe that any two wars are alike. To call a war "garden-variety" really devalues the deaths of all involved. If you are implying that the war in Iraq is connected to the 9/11 bombings I'd be really keen to see the missing proof that everyone's been looking for on that matter. Do you have evidence of the link? I'd be impressed.Our war against Hussein's regime ended months and months ago. We are now defending Iraq and the Iraqi government against Islamic extremists. Those Islamis extremists are fighting a holy war. We are fighting a standard war. Standard, common, garden-variety - pick whatever word you wish that will not assault your sensibilities.
koan wrote: It is sad when war can be called typical in any fashion. I don't really believe that any two wars are alike. To call a war "garden-variety" really devalues the deaths of all involved. If you are implying that the war in Iraq is connected to the 9/11 bombings I'd be really keen to see the missing proof that everyone's been looking for on that matter. Do you have evidence of the link? I'd be impressed.Our war against Hussein's regime ended months and months ago. We are now defending Iraq and the Iraqi government against Islamic extremists. Those Islamis extremists are fighting a holy war. We are fighting a standard war. Standard, common, garden-variety - pick whatever word you wish that will not assault your sensibilities.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Far Rider wrote: Chruches, and church orginizations should be run by the corporate Spirit of God, to meet out the needs of those around them first, and worry little or not at all about the world political agenda.FR, I thought that I had heard all of the various epithets, slogans, catch-phrases and shibboleths employed by the various far-flung sects of Christianity, but I gotta admit, "The Corporate Spirit of God' is a new one on me. In which state is He incorporated? Delaware? Or perhaps the State of Grace?
Seriously, though, you are contradicting yourself here. The Churches of the WCC do have one thing in common; they are all churches that preach what has come to known as 'the Social Gospel', that is, that one serves God by serving and helping one's neighbor, and those churches consider that very important, for they see it as the essence of following Christ's teachings, especially those of the Sermon on the Mount. That is, to use your own words, 'meet[ing] the needs of those around them', so what is your objection?
That most of these churches' agendae are politically left of center I do not dispute. Love of neighbor and help of neighbor have always been left of center. By contrast, selfishness, greed, and lack of concern for the less fortunate have always been right of center. I leave it to you to decide which position is the more Christlike.Far Rider wrote: The hunt for Bin laden continues. Teams of US servicemen and CIA as awell as mutliple other intel agencies aroud the world will continue to minitor and we will find him, if hes still alive.Well, fine, FR, I hope you're right, but I'm not holding my breath. Wouldn't it have been better to take one thing at a time, to have devoted all of our resources to finishing off bin Laden before blundering into Iraq, which was of no immediate threat to us?
Seriously, though, you are contradicting yourself here. The Churches of the WCC do have one thing in common; they are all churches that preach what has come to known as 'the Social Gospel', that is, that one serves God by serving and helping one's neighbor, and those churches consider that very important, for they see it as the essence of following Christ's teachings, especially those of the Sermon on the Mount. That is, to use your own words, 'meet[ing] the needs of those around them', so what is your objection?
That most of these churches' agendae are politically left of center I do not dispute. Love of neighbor and help of neighbor have always been left of center. By contrast, selfishness, greed, and lack of concern for the less fortunate have always been right of center. I leave it to you to decide which position is the more Christlike.Far Rider wrote: The hunt for Bin laden continues. Teams of US servicemen and CIA as awell as mutliple other intel agencies aroud the world will continue to minitor and we will find him, if hes still alive.Well, fine, FR, I hope you're right, but I'm not holding my breath. Wouldn't it have been better to take one thing at a time, to have devoted all of our resources to finishing off bin Laden before blundering into Iraq, which was of no immediate threat to us?
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: That hurts, koan. I addressed your ad hominems. :-1If this discussion were conducted less vindictively, it would improve in quality. I accept that you might be trying to employ humor, but it would only be funny if it were less twisted from the content of the thread. You introduce emotive words like "slime" yourself, apply it as other people's "apparent" view of you, and then believe that personal abuse is being employed from both sides? This is not a competition. You are not scoring points with a view to victory. Try to engage some civility. It's being employed by others here.
Our war against Hussein's regime ended months and months ago. We are now defending Iraq and the Iraqi government against Islamic extremists. Those Islamis extremists are fighting a holy war. We are fighting a standard war. Standard, common, garden-variety - pick whatever word you wish that will not assault your sensibilities.Could we bear in mind that the majority of the citizens of Iraq are Muslims? Firstly, the people fighting against the Coalition are mainly Iraqi, not "foreign fighters" - we can discuss subsequently the truth of that if you want to challenge it. You call them Islamic rather than Muslim, which seems to have become a form of code-speak for "enemy". You call them extremists as though being extreme in the face of foreign occupation isn't a reaction you'd applaud in other circumstances. It's extreme in that most people aren't fighters. Have you tried thinking yourself into their shoes and wondering whose side you'd be supporting from that perspective? Does the word "collaborator" not exist in your vocabulary? Isn't it applied in other settings to people who go along with foreign occupiers?
Our war against Hussein's regime ended months and months ago. We are now defending Iraq and the Iraqi government against Islamic extremists. Those Islamis extremists are fighting a holy war. We are fighting a standard war. Standard, common, garden-variety - pick whatever word you wish that will not assault your sensibilities.Could we bear in mind that the majority of the citizens of Iraq are Muslims? Firstly, the people fighting against the Coalition are mainly Iraqi, not "foreign fighters" - we can discuss subsequently the truth of that if you want to challenge it. You call them Islamic rather than Muslim, which seems to have become a form of code-speak for "enemy". You call them extremists as though being extreme in the face of foreign occupation isn't a reaction you'd applaud in other circumstances. It's extreme in that most people aren't fighters. Have you tried thinking yourself into their shoes and wondering whose side you'd be supporting from that perspective? Does the word "collaborator" not exist in your vocabulary? Isn't it applied in other settings to people who go along with foreign occupiers?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Just out of curiosity how would you react if they backed the war and called for all christians to join in?
Churches Denounce Iraq War
gmc wrote: Just out of curiosity how would you react if they backed the war and called for all christians to join in?I can't think of a single Christian denomination, with the exception of the Quakers, that doesn't back the use of war where it falls into the category of Just War. The reason for the apology by the delegates to the conference was, in part, their recognition that the conditions for fighting a Just War hadn't been met. How would I react, myself? I'm with the Quakers on this one. Christians backing war, even in this day and age, isn't impossible, even to the extent of a Crusade if that's what you're implying. All you need is the right circumstances. Those don't involve either UK or US Imperial ambitions.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Churches Denounce Iraq War
Accountable wrote: Most important?? In whose view?
The New York Times.
I've been away for a few days...hopefully you weren't left presuming it was my own statement. That would be a profound misunderstanding if you believed I would make up my own quotation.
The New York Times.
I've been away for a few days...hopefully you weren't left presuming it was my own statement. That would be a profound misunderstanding if you believed I would make up my own quotation.
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Accountable
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Churches Denounce Iraq War
koan wrote: The New York Times.
I've been away for a few days...hopefully you weren't left presuming it was my own statement. That would be a profound misunderstanding if you believed I would make up my own quotation.
Never entered my mind. Several things we may not like about each other, koan, but I know you're no plagiarist. I actually gave you credit for making me aware of Chomski, when I quoted him in another thread. I mean I'd heard the name but that's all.
I've been away for a few days...hopefully you weren't left presuming it was my own statement. That would be a profound misunderstanding if you believed I would make up my own quotation.
Never entered my mind. Several things we may not like about each other, koan, but I know you're no plagiarist. I actually gave you credit for making me aware of Chomski, when I quoted him in another thread. I mean I'd heard the name but that's all.