FarRider:-6
Whatever.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Wine or Grape Juice?
Wine or Grape Juice?
http://www.thejewishmuseum.org/site/pag ... drink.html
Information - History
Seeing as how it is their history, and they wrote the Book. I do think they know what they are talking about. They have not reached the conclusion before they do the research.
Now I shall leave someone else to have the last word on this present issue.
Shalom
Ted
Information - History
Seeing as how it is their history, and they wrote the Book. I do think they know what they are talking about. They have not reached the conclusion before they do the research.
Now I shall leave someone else to have the last word on this present issue.
Shalom
Ted
Wine or Grape Juice?
Far Rider wrote: Telling me some rabbi and some catholic said...doesnt mean anything to me.
This man proved GOD SAID....FR, although this comment was not addressed to me, I gotta say, I find such a remark quite offensive, because I am not only a Catholic, but a Catholic who reveres my religion's Jewish heritage.
I can assure you that there were learned Catholics long before there were whatever you are, and learned Jews long before that.
Starting with unsupportable conclusions and extrapolating nonsense to 'support' the conclusions while ignoring the facts is the exact opposite of learning. A religion that is based on anti-intellectualism is incapable of producing scholarship, and claiming that such drivel in some way 'proves' or represents the word or will of God is, in my opinion, borderline blasphemy.
In most cases, the fact that Scripture refers to wine, not Welchade, can be easily discerned from the context by anyone with an IQ at or above the moron range.
If you really want to support your position, how about responding directly to the various questions I've already put to you? Here are a few of them again, with your own words in italics, to save you the trouble of going back through the thread:
1. Explain how Noah left himself open to sin by sampling his own wine, finding it more potent than he had expected, and passing out. What manner of sins do you suppose he might have committed during that period of unconsciousness?
2. Show me where the Bible says, or even hints, that he committed any sin here.
3. Give a specific reference to support your claim that God laid down the law to the patriarchs with regard to drinking wine.
4. Show (scripturally) that Noah [k]new for him drunkeness was a sin.
5. Support your claim that Noah never drank wine again.
6. Finally, and perhaps most important, why do you spend so much time worrying about Noah's sins, and those of your fellow Christians, and of Jews, when you could more profitably spend that time worrying about your own?
Answer those and I'll give you some more.
Regarding the links you provided from secular sources, I reviewed those briefly and found that they ranged from perfectly factual to rather faddish and opinionated, but that is beside the point. The point of the thread is whether the beverages described in Scripture at Cana, the Last Supper and elsewhere were wine or Welchade, and whether the Bible condemns the moderate consumption of wine or other alcoholic beverages. As things stand, you are losing that debate rather badly.
FR, I can't speak for Ted, but I think it should be clear that neither of us is trying to convert you or get you to change your status as a teetotaler. Nor are we by any means trying to 'sandbag' you here; on the contrary, we keep encouraging you to give us better support for your position and you seem unable to do so.
I would suggest you go to your local library and consult the Encyclopedia Judaica regarding the role of wine in Jewish culture and worship, and for the Christian perspective, the Catholic Encyclopedia and any number of reference works from the various 'mainline' Protestant publishers.
In short, go ANYWHERE but to the outer fringes of Christianity, where truth and reason are condemned and nonsense and ignorance extolled.
This man proved GOD SAID....FR, although this comment was not addressed to me, I gotta say, I find such a remark quite offensive, because I am not only a Catholic, but a Catholic who reveres my religion's Jewish heritage.
I can assure you that there were learned Catholics long before there were whatever you are, and learned Jews long before that.
Starting with unsupportable conclusions and extrapolating nonsense to 'support' the conclusions while ignoring the facts is the exact opposite of learning. A religion that is based on anti-intellectualism is incapable of producing scholarship, and claiming that such drivel in some way 'proves' or represents the word or will of God is, in my opinion, borderline blasphemy.
In most cases, the fact that Scripture refers to wine, not Welchade, can be easily discerned from the context by anyone with an IQ at or above the moron range.
If you really want to support your position, how about responding directly to the various questions I've already put to you? Here are a few of them again, with your own words in italics, to save you the trouble of going back through the thread:
1. Explain how Noah left himself open to sin by sampling his own wine, finding it more potent than he had expected, and passing out. What manner of sins do you suppose he might have committed during that period of unconsciousness?
2. Show me where the Bible says, or even hints, that he committed any sin here.
3. Give a specific reference to support your claim that God laid down the law to the patriarchs with regard to drinking wine.
4. Show (scripturally) that Noah [k]new for him drunkeness was a sin.
5. Support your claim that Noah never drank wine again.
6. Finally, and perhaps most important, why do you spend so much time worrying about Noah's sins, and those of your fellow Christians, and of Jews, when you could more profitably spend that time worrying about your own?
Answer those and I'll give you some more.
Regarding the links you provided from secular sources, I reviewed those briefly and found that they ranged from perfectly factual to rather faddish and opinionated, but that is beside the point. The point of the thread is whether the beverages described in Scripture at Cana, the Last Supper and elsewhere were wine or Welchade, and whether the Bible condemns the moderate consumption of wine or other alcoholic beverages. As things stand, you are losing that debate rather badly.
FR, I can't speak for Ted, but I think it should be clear that neither of us is trying to convert you or get you to change your status as a teetotaler. Nor are we by any means trying to 'sandbag' you here; on the contrary, we keep encouraging you to give us better support for your position and you seem unable to do so.
I would suggest you go to your local library and consult the Encyclopedia Judaica regarding the role of wine in Jewish culture and worship, and for the Christian perspective, the Catholic Encyclopedia and any number of reference works from the various 'mainline' Protestant publishers.
In short, go ANYWHERE but to the outer fringes of Christianity, where truth and reason are condemned and nonsense and ignorance extolled.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Far Rider wrote: 1. Alcohol in any form or any amount aint good for ya. You can follow the long line of persons who have justified in their own minds reasons to partake. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I actually wasnt debating, Just chatting.
2. The Bible is not the "outer fringes of Christianity"...
3. ...thats what I based my conclusions on. Not the catholic church or the judiasm or any other man run religion.
4. I'll not argue about it.
5. You and Ted please have a nice day.1. If that is your new focus, start a new thread on a different forum. This forum is for the discussion of religion, specifically Christianity. And by the way, your degree in medicine is from which university?
2. I'm referring to the outer fringes of Protestantism, churches that misuse the Bible to control people's minds and separate them from reality. In your case they seem to have succeeded.
3. You haven't shown that a single one of those conclusions is Biblically supported. I keep asking you to do so, you are unable to.
4. Another way of saying the same thing - that you're unable to support any of your claims here.
5. You too, FR. Enjoy your Welchade.
2. The Bible is not the "outer fringes of Christianity"...
3. ...thats what I based my conclusions on. Not the catholic church or the judiasm or any other man run religion.
4. I'll not argue about it.
5. You and Ted please have a nice day.1. If that is your new focus, start a new thread on a different forum. This forum is for the discussion of religion, specifically Christianity. And by the way, your degree in medicine is from which university?
2. I'm referring to the outer fringes of Protestantism, churches that misuse the Bible to control people's minds and separate them from reality. In your case they seem to have succeeded.
3. You haven't shown that a single one of those conclusions is Biblically supported. I keep asking you to do so, you are unable to.
4. Another way of saying the same thing - that you're unable to support any of your claims here.
5. You too, FR. Enjoy your Welchade.
-
chonsigirl
- Posts: 33633
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:28 am
Wine or Grape Juice?
Far Rider wrote: Bronwen, You are not an easy lady to talk or chat with. So I'll do this kindly one more time. Then I'm just gonna ignore your continual barrage of asking for and me telling you the same thing. Oinos is the greek word for wine. according to strong exhaustive concordance it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story. If you find a catholic source that says other wise by all means use it. For me I'll stick to the greek in its normal interpretive discourse. I'm not sure why you keep asking for it, and I type it in and you ask me again and again. My answer has not changed.
I started this thread, did you read who the original poster was? Me. Far. I can ask what I want, you do not have to answer. Im chatting about wine. So far Ive pretty much stuck to that.
I will continue to work my way from genesis to revelation and spell out my thoughts on wine. The good the bad and the ugly of it.
BTW... Noah will be my first study.
If you use a Catholic source, that would be from the Vulgate, and that is a translation to begin with, stick with the original Greek, Far.
I started this thread, did you read who the original poster was? Me. Far. I can ask what I want, you do not have to answer. Im chatting about wine. So far Ive pretty much stuck to that.
I will continue to work my way from genesis to revelation and spell out my thoughts on wine. The good the bad and the ugly of it.
BTW... Noah will be my first study.
If you use a Catholic source, that would be from the Vulgate, and that is a translation to begin with, stick with the original Greek, Far.
Wine or Grape Juice?
well Mom and Dad conviscated the comunion duties at our church. before M & D, they would take the unused little juice shots and put it back into the same bottle. YUCK!! same with the waffers.
our church uses red grape juice. we have a significantly older demographic and real alcohol would adversly affect the numerous meds they are all on.
including my father, with his heart meds.
our church uses red grape juice. we have a significantly older demographic and real alcohol would adversly affect the numerous meds they are all on.
including my father, with his heart meds.
Get your mind out of the gutter - it's blocking my view
Mind like a steel trap - Rusty and Illegal in 37 states.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Far Rider wrote: 1. Bronwen, You are not an easy lady to talk or chat with.
2. Oinos is the greek word for wine. according to strong exhaustive concordance it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story.
3. If you find a catholic source that says other wise by all means use it. For me I'll stick to the greek in its normal interpretive discourse. I'm not sure why you keep asking for it, and I type it in and you ask me again and again. My answer has not changed.
4. I started this thread, did you read who the original poster was? Me. Far. I can ask what I want, you do not have to answer. Im chatting about wine. So far Ive pretty much stuck to that.
5. I will continue to work my way from genesis to revelation and spell out my thoughts on wine. The good the bad and the ugly of it.1. Well, FR, I don't really think that's true. I do tend to become somewhat confrontational when posters make claims that they cannot support, but if I do that, it's all in the spirit of a lively debate. No personal offense is intended.
2. I know very little about the Greek language. I SUSPECT, however, based on common sense, that you are in error here. If you can quote from, or refer me to, a source for that assertion (that the Greek word oinos can mean either wine or grape juice) that does not have a pre-existing bias that drinking wine is sinful (which would exclude Strong), then do so. Until then, I'll assume you are wrong because it does not seem logical that the NT writers should choose from a language as precise as Greek a word with such an imprecise meaning. If I can myself find proof that you are correct, you can be sure that I'll let you know immediately!
3. There is no such thing as a 'Catholic source' for the definitions of words. They mean what they mean. The point, which you continue to avoid because it destroys your argument, is that in most cases the CONTEXT makes clear that wine is being referred to, not grape juice. Nor do I know of ANY well-established English Bible translation that translates the word as anything other than wine. If you can cite one, please do so.
Jews do not drink Welchade at wedding feasts. Jews do not drink Welchade at Passover. If you don't believe me, ask a Jew. Maybe there aren't any where you live. In any case, even if you are correct about the word, that does NOTHING to support your assertion that the Bible says that drinking wine in moderation is sinful. It neither says nor even implies that.
4. I realize that, FR. Maybe you should have been honest and stipulated that you wished responses only from those who agree with you.
5. That's fine, FR, go for it. But no matter how much work and research you do, it will all be worthless as long as you start with the conclusion and ignore all of facts to the contrary. That is not scholarship, that is nothing more than propagandizing, and quite dishonest at that.
2. Oinos is the greek word for wine. according to strong exhaustive concordance it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story.
3. If you find a catholic source that says other wise by all means use it. For me I'll stick to the greek in its normal interpretive discourse. I'm not sure why you keep asking for it, and I type it in and you ask me again and again. My answer has not changed.
4. I started this thread, did you read who the original poster was? Me. Far. I can ask what I want, you do not have to answer. Im chatting about wine. So far Ive pretty much stuck to that.
5. I will continue to work my way from genesis to revelation and spell out my thoughts on wine. The good the bad and the ugly of it.1. Well, FR, I don't really think that's true. I do tend to become somewhat confrontational when posters make claims that they cannot support, but if I do that, it's all in the spirit of a lively debate. No personal offense is intended.
2. I know very little about the Greek language. I SUSPECT, however, based on common sense, that you are in error here. If you can quote from, or refer me to, a source for that assertion (that the Greek word oinos can mean either wine or grape juice) that does not have a pre-existing bias that drinking wine is sinful (which would exclude Strong), then do so. Until then, I'll assume you are wrong because it does not seem logical that the NT writers should choose from a language as precise as Greek a word with such an imprecise meaning. If I can myself find proof that you are correct, you can be sure that I'll let you know immediately!
3. There is no such thing as a 'Catholic source' for the definitions of words. They mean what they mean. The point, which you continue to avoid because it destroys your argument, is that in most cases the CONTEXT makes clear that wine is being referred to, not grape juice. Nor do I know of ANY well-established English Bible translation that translates the word as anything other than wine. If you can cite one, please do so.
Jews do not drink Welchade at wedding feasts. Jews do not drink Welchade at Passover. If you don't believe me, ask a Jew. Maybe there aren't any where you live. In any case, even if you are correct about the word, that does NOTHING to support your assertion that the Bible says that drinking wine in moderation is sinful. It neither says nor even implies that.
4. I realize that, FR. Maybe you should have been honest and stipulated that you wished responses only from those who agree with you.
5. That's fine, FR, go for it. But no matter how much work and research you do, it will all be worthless as long as you start with the conclusion and ignore all of facts to the contrary. That is not scholarship, that is nothing more than propagandizing, and quite dishonest at that.
Wine or Grape Juice?
chonsigirl wrote: If you use a Catholic source, that would be from the Vulgate, and that is a translation to begin with, stick with the original Greek, Far.Chon, it is not the word that is in question but its meaning. Obviously Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English would all use different words. Not having a copy of the Latin Vulgate at my immediate disposal, I'm not sure what word it uses for 'wine', but I have no doubt that, whatever the word, it means 'wine', not Welchade.
Maybe you can help FR out here. Can you give me the name of any SECULAR source, such as a Greek/English dictionary, that gives both wine and unfermented grape juice as legitimate translations of oinos?
Can you name any published English translation of the NT that translates oinos as anything but 'wine'? I'm not saying there aren't any, I'm just asking.
Maybe you can help FR out here. Can you give me the name of any SECULAR source, such as a Greek/English dictionary, that gives both wine and unfermented grape juice as legitimate translations of oinos?
Can you name any published English translation of the NT that translates oinos as anything but 'wine'? I'm not saying there aren't any, I'm just asking.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Far Rider wrote: Strongs exhaustive concordance of the bible is probably the foremost reference used in hundreds of thousands of schoole for translation of Hebrew/Chaldee/Greek. Its a languge translator, not an interpretive guide or commentary. I hope you realsize that.Well, the old rule of thumb for concordances is 'Young's for the young, Strong's for the strong, and Cruden's for the crude.' At age 65, I continue to use Young's.
I'm not sure that Strong's or ANY concordance is used in 'hundreds of thousands' of schools for the purpose of translating words. In the case of SCRIPTURAL words, that is best done by dictionaries which have no sectarian bias.
The main purpose of a concordance is not defining or translating words but helping the reader find Biblical words and phrases quickly, and in this respect, Strong's is certainly a credible source.
I'm not sure that Strong's or ANY concordance is used in 'hundreds of thousands' of schools for the purpose of translating words. In the case of SCRIPTURAL words, that is best done by dictionaries which have no sectarian bias.
The main purpose of a concordance is not defining or translating words but helping the reader find Biblical words and phrases quickly, and in this respect, Strong's is certainly a credible source.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen:-6
My favourite is "Young's" as well. Excellent source recommended to me by a scholar.
Shalom
Ted:-6
My favourite is "Young's" as well. Excellent source recommended to me by a scholar.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Wine or Grape Juice?
Ted wrote: My favourite is "Young's" as well. Excellent source recommended to me by a scholar.By the way, I checked Strong's Exhaustive Concordance in my local library, and as FR states, it does indeed contain an index of key Greek words found in scripture. Also a similar list in Hebrew. HOWEVER, the Greek-English section translates oinos as WINE, pure and simple. And of course, so does every other Greek-English dictionary I checked. No mention of grape juice or 'non-fermentation'.
FR said previously:Far Rider wrote: according to strong exhaustive concordance it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story.
FR, when you hafta lie to support your position, your position is weak.
FR said previously:Far Rider wrote: according to strong exhaustive concordance it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story.
FR, when you hafta lie to support your position, your position is weak.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen:-6
You may find this interesting.
http://www.bible.gen.nz/dictionary.htm
Hypertext Bible Dictionary
http://www.bible.org/isbe.asp?id=9200
bible.org: ISBE
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -9238.html
Blue Letter Bible
http://www.stempublishing.com/dictionary/818_839.html
Bible Dictionary W, Y, Z1.
http://www.blackchristian.com/dictionary/
THE MONASTEREO - Bible Dictionary
Shalom
Ted:-6
You may find this interesting.
http://www.bible.gen.nz/dictionary.htm
Hypertext Bible Dictionary
http://www.bible.org/isbe.asp?id=9200
bible.org: ISBE
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -9238.html
Blue Letter Bible
http://www.stempublishing.com/dictionary/818_839.html
Bible Dictionary W, Y, Z1.
http://www.blackchristian.com/dictionary/
THE MONASTEREO - Bible Dictionary
Shalom
Ted:-6
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen:-6
I have no intentions of re-entering this particular debate. I'm simply passing on resource information.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have no intentions of re-entering this particular debate. I'm simply passing on resource information.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Wine or Grape Juice?
Far Rider wrote: 1. Bronwen... here is the strongs definition of oinos (strongs number 3631) from a hebrew word corresponding number 3631 yayin. Yayin is from an unspecified and unused root word meaning effervescence. Wine is the english term (latin I suppose) ..... but thats the word we use for it,
2. ...to clearly understand the word you have to go back to its original language and the use of the word "yayin" in hebrew does not indicate fermentation or non fermintaion. By its use it means "of the vine". Its used interchangeable as winebibber, and the greek word even referes to the winepress itself. Can a winepress be fermented?
3. But to flat out call me a liar is so bold and presumptuous not to mention rude. You crossed the line of normal discussion of which you stated that is the way you conduct yourself here on FG.1. FR, we both agreed that this exchange had run its course. I made a further post only because I checked Strong's and found, AS I HAD SUSPECTED, that it does not say what you claim it says. Here is the entry for oinos, from the '21st Century Edition' (page 1518, center column):3631 oinos, n[oun]GK:3885[>3630,3632,3643]. wine:-wine[32], winepress(+3025)[1]That is the entire entry. Anybody see anything about..Far Rider wrote: it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story....here?
Here is Strong's entry for 'yayin' (page 1397, bottom of center column):3196 yayin n[oun] m[asculine],GK: 3516, wine, an alcoholic beverage made of naturally fermented fruit juice (usually grapes), usually diluted with water for general consumption:- wine [137], banqueting[1], vine (+1612)[1] vine[1], winebibbers[1].[Bronwen's emphasis]Anybody see anything about..Far Rider wrote: it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story....here either?
Wine is fermented. If it's not fermented, it's not wine. Yes, I know that today you can go into into a liquor store, or perhaps an ordinary grocery store, and buy wine from which the alcohol has been removed. That was not the case in Biblical times.
2. I don't question your etymology of the Hebrew word. Etymology is not meaning; in fact, the meaning of a word is often rather far removed from the etymology.
The English word salary, the money that one earns from a regular job, comes from the Latin word for salt. It does not mean that a company's employees are paid in salt, and yet, an employee who really 'works hard for the money' is said to be 'worth his/her salt'.
The English term 'truck farm(er)' comes from an old French verb (troquer) meaning 'to trade or barter', and the fact that a truck farmer may use a truck (vehicle, from a Greek word) to take his truck (items to be traded) to market is merely a coincidence. Yet when one wants nothing to do with another person, he might say that he will 'have no truck (dealings) with him/her'.
Here is an excellent excerpt for one of Ted's links in the second preceding post: I had added only my own emphasis:
There are several Hebrew words translated wine, and though various expressions are attached to it as 'sweet,' 'new,' 'strong,' 'good,' 'mixed,' 'spiced,' 'on the lees,' all are wine; and the wine was intoxicating, as seen already in the days of Noah. Gen. 9: 21. Intemperance is the abuse of it, and against such abuse there are abundant protests and warnings in the scripture. Wine is mentioned with corn and oil, among the good gifts wherewith God would bless His earthly people. Deut. 7: 13; Ps. 104: 15. It was daily offered in the temple as a drink offering. Num. 28: 7.
Wine was created by the Lord in His first recorded miracle. John 2: 3-10. He was blasphemously spoken of as a wine-bibber; and He said at the last Passover, "I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Mark 14: 25. He also instituted the Lord's Supper with the cup of wine. Paul recommended Timothy to take a little wine for his frequent sickness; and a bishop must not be given to much wine. There is therefore adequate evidence that wine is regarded as a beneficent gift of God, of which man may make a moderate use. If, however, a man has no power over his appetite, doubtless he had better abstain from wine altogether. [Source: Morrish Bible Dictionary]
I would add only that the only NT verse I can find favoring abstention from any amount of wine is Romans 14:21:It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble. Note that the consumption of meat is discouraged in exactly the same terms as wine. FR, we know you are a teetotaler, that's fine. Are you a vegetarian too? If so, that's fine also. I eat very little meat myself, and I drink very little wine. I'm not, however, a fanatic about either.
3. I did no such thing; rather I made a general statement and directed it to you...Bronwen wrote: FR, when you hafta lie to support your position, your position is weak....as if to say, 'If the shoe fits...'
2. ...to clearly understand the word you have to go back to its original language and the use of the word "yayin" in hebrew does not indicate fermentation or non fermintaion. By its use it means "of the vine". Its used interchangeable as winebibber, and the greek word even referes to the winepress itself. Can a winepress be fermented?
3. But to flat out call me a liar is so bold and presumptuous not to mention rude. You crossed the line of normal discussion of which you stated that is the way you conduct yourself here on FG.1. FR, we both agreed that this exchange had run its course. I made a further post only because I checked Strong's and found, AS I HAD SUSPECTED, that it does not say what you claim it says. Here is the entry for oinos, from the '21st Century Edition' (page 1518, center column):3631 oinos, n[oun]GK:3885[>3630,3632,3643]. wine:-wine[32], winepress(+3025)[1]That is the entire entry. Anybody see anything about..Far Rider wrote: it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story....here?
Here is Strong's entry for 'yayin' (page 1397, bottom of center column):3196 yayin n[oun] m[asculine],GK: 3516, wine, an alcoholic beverage made of naturally fermented fruit juice (usually grapes), usually diluted with water for general consumption:- wine [137], banqueting[1], vine (+1612)[1] vine[1], winebibbers[1].[Bronwen's emphasis]Anybody see anything about..Far Rider wrote: it denotes neither fermentation nor non fermantation. period. end of story....here either?
Wine is fermented. If it's not fermented, it's not wine. Yes, I know that today you can go into into a liquor store, or perhaps an ordinary grocery store, and buy wine from which the alcohol has been removed. That was not the case in Biblical times.
2. I don't question your etymology of the Hebrew word. Etymology is not meaning; in fact, the meaning of a word is often rather far removed from the etymology.
The English word salary, the money that one earns from a regular job, comes from the Latin word for salt. It does not mean that a company's employees are paid in salt, and yet, an employee who really 'works hard for the money' is said to be 'worth his/her salt'.
The English term 'truck farm(er)' comes from an old French verb (troquer) meaning 'to trade or barter', and the fact that a truck farmer may use a truck (vehicle, from a Greek word) to take his truck (items to be traded) to market is merely a coincidence. Yet when one wants nothing to do with another person, he might say that he will 'have no truck (dealings) with him/her'.
Here is an excellent excerpt for one of Ted's links in the second preceding post: I had added only my own emphasis:
There are several Hebrew words translated wine, and though various expressions are attached to it as 'sweet,' 'new,' 'strong,' 'good,' 'mixed,' 'spiced,' 'on the lees,' all are wine; and the wine was intoxicating, as seen already in the days of Noah. Gen. 9: 21. Intemperance is the abuse of it, and against such abuse there are abundant protests and warnings in the scripture. Wine is mentioned with corn and oil, among the good gifts wherewith God would bless His earthly people. Deut. 7: 13; Ps. 104: 15. It was daily offered in the temple as a drink offering. Num. 28: 7.
Wine was created by the Lord in His first recorded miracle. John 2: 3-10. He was blasphemously spoken of as a wine-bibber; and He said at the last Passover, "I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God." Mark 14: 25. He also instituted the Lord's Supper with the cup of wine. Paul recommended Timothy to take a little wine for his frequent sickness; and a bishop must not be given to much wine. There is therefore adequate evidence that wine is regarded as a beneficent gift of God, of which man may make a moderate use. If, however, a man has no power over his appetite, doubtless he had better abstain from wine altogether. [Source: Morrish Bible Dictionary]
I would add only that the only NT verse I can find favoring abstention from any amount of wine is Romans 14:21:It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble. Note that the consumption of meat is discouraged in exactly the same terms as wine. FR, we know you are a teetotaler, that's fine. Are you a vegetarian too? If so, that's fine also. I eat very little meat myself, and I drink very little wine. I'm not, however, a fanatic about either.
3. I did no such thing; rather I made a general statement and directed it to you...Bronwen wrote: FR, when you hafta lie to support your position, your position is weak....as if to say, 'If the shoe fits...'
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen:-6
To quote scripture which is apparently not appreciated "None are so blind as those who will not see."
Shalom
Ted:-6
To quote scripture which is apparently not appreciated "None are so blind as those who will not see."
Shalom
Ted:-6
Wine or Grape Juice?
Far Rider wrote: Yeah you called me a liar again. That’s twice now…
I feel like Cinderella’s step sister… can’t quit get that shoe on.
We disagree on almost all points Bronwen. No sense in turning this into something ugly. I’ll continue my study and when I’m done I’ll post my results here. And just as now you can take it or leave it.FR, it's not a matter of disagreement but of supporting one's claims.
You clearly misrepresented Strong's entries on both the Greek and Hebrew words for wine to suit your own agenda, and you did so because your agenda is weak and unsupportable. Don't try to weasel by claiming that I insulted you, stick with the facts. If Strong's says that either of those words connotes grape juice, give us a specific reference that we can look up. And after you've done so, quote ANY verse other than Romans 14:21, ANYWHERE in the Bible, that speaks negatively of the moderate use or enjoyment of wine.
And while we're discussing that verse from Romans, you didn't tell us whether you are a vegetarian. How about it? If you are, that's great, but if you are NOT, then how do you rationalize picking and choosing which items of Biblical guidance you will follow and which you will ignore? Those items are in the very same verse. Here it is again:It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
I feel like Cinderella’s step sister… can’t quit get that shoe on.
We disagree on almost all points Bronwen. No sense in turning this into something ugly. I’ll continue my study and when I’m done I’ll post my results here. And just as now you can take it or leave it.FR, it's not a matter of disagreement but of supporting one's claims.
You clearly misrepresented Strong's entries on both the Greek and Hebrew words for wine to suit your own agenda, and you did so because your agenda is weak and unsupportable. Don't try to weasel by claiming that I insulted you, stick with the facts. If Strong's says that either of those words connotes grape juice, give us a specific reference that we can look up. And after you've done so, quote ANY verse other than Romans 14:21, ANYWHERE in the Bible, that speaks negatively of the moderate use or enjoyment of wine.
And while we're discussing that verse from Romans, you didn't tell us whether you are a vegetarian. How about it? If you are, that's great, but if you are NOT, then how do you rationalize picking and choosing which items of Biblical guidance you will follow and which you will ignore? Those items are in the very same verse. Here it is again:It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Romans 14:22:
Your personal convictions [on such matters]-exercise as in God's presence, keeping them to yourself [striving only to know the truth and obey His will]. Blessed (happy, to be envied) is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves [who does not convict himself by what he chooses to do].
Your personal convictions [on such matters]-exercise as in God's presence, keeping them to yourself [striving only to know the truth and obey His will]. Blessed (happy, to be envied) is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves [who does not convict himself by what he chooses to do].
Wine or Grape Juice?
Lil~Basco wrote: Romans 14:22: Your personal convictions [on such matters]-exercise as in God's presence, keeping them to yourself [striving only to know the truth and obey His will]. Blessed (happy, to be envied) is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves [who does not convict himself by what he chooses to do].Lil, it would be better to simply quote the verse as written, and then give your own interpretation separately. By combining the two, you compromise the integrity of the verse itself, by attempting to make it appear to say something that it does not.
Here is the verse from the online New English Translation (NET):The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves. What Paul seems to be saying here is that one's actions are more important than one's advocacy. One can preach abstention from meat (as, for example, the Seventh Day Adventists do) but if the preacher himself eats meat, his (mere) advocacy of vegetarianism does him no good spiritually; he is rather a hypocrite. If one chooses to eat meat, or drink wine, that is between that person and God, but that person should not attempt to impose a different standard on his/her neighbor in an attempt to create an illusion of piety.
In any case, that has little to do with my exchanges with FR on this thread. This is a DISCUSSION forum and he wishes only to preach his own version of Christian morality and do so unchallenged. Youse can't do dat here. Furthermore, I have not challenged his right to his beliefs, I've challenged him only in that he made deliberately false allusions to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, claiming that it gave interpretations that are simply not there, as anyone can verify by checking it personally. Most libraries have the book, and I have given the reference numbers above.
He also claims that allusions to the MODERATE drinking of wine, both in Scripture and in contemporary medical literature, are nearly all negative, when in fact they are nearly all positive, or neutral at worst.
Here is the verse from the online New English Translation (NET):The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves. What Paul seems to be saying here is that one's actions are more important than one's advocacy. One can preach abstention from meat (as, for example, the Seventh Day Adventists do) but if the preacher himself eats meat, his (mere) advocacy of vegetarianism does him no good spiritually; he is rather a hypocrite. If one chooses to eat meat, or drink wine, that is between that person and God, but that person should not attempt to impose a different standard on his/her neighbor in an attempt to create an illusion of piety.
In any case, that has little to do with my exchanges with FR on this thread. This is a DISCUSSION forum and he wishes only to preach his own version of Christian morality and do so unchallenged. Youse can't do dat here. Furthermore, I have not challenged his right to his beliefs, I've challenged him only in that he made deliberately false allusions to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, claiming that it gave interpretations that are simply not there, as anyone can verify by checking it personally. Most libraries have the book, and I have given the reference numbers above.
He also claims that allusions to the MODERATE drinking of wine, both in Scripture and in contemporary medical literature, are nearly all negative, when in fact they are nearly all positive, or neutral at worst.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen wrote: Lil, it would be better to simply quote the verse as written, and then give your own interpretation separately. By combining the two, you compromise the integrity of the verse itself, by attempting to make it appear to say something that it does not.
Here is the verse from the online New English Translation (NET):What Paul is saying here is that one's actions are more important than one's advocacy. One can preach abstention from meat (as, for example, the Seventh Day Adventists do) but if the preacher himself eats meat, his (mere) advocacy of vegetarianism does him no good spiritually; he is rather a hypocrite. If one chooses to eat meat, or drink wine, that is between that person and God, but that person should not attempt to impose a different standard on his/her neighbor.
In any case, that has little to do with my exchanges with FR on this thread. This is a DISCUSSION forum and he wishes only to preach his own version of Christian morality and do so unchallenged. Youse can't do dat here.
No disrespect to you Bronwen but that IS the way MY Bible reads! I quoted it exactly as it appears.
Esther 1:8 and drinking was according to the law; no one was compelled to drink, for the king had directed all the officials of his palace to serve only as each guest desired.
I see this verse as giving us the choice to consume or not.
Here is the verse from the online New English Translation (NET):What Paul is saying here is that one's actions are more important than one's advocacy. One can preach abstention from meat (as, for example, the Seventh Day Adventists do) but if the preacher himself eats meat, his (mere) advocacy of vegetarianism does him no good spiritually; he is rather a hypocrite. If one chooses to eat meat, or drink wine, that is between that person and God, but that person should not attempt to impose a different standard on his/her neighbor.
In any case, that has little to do with my exchanges with FR on this thread. This is a DISCUSSION forum and he wishes only to preach his own version of Christian morality and do so unchallenged. Youse can't do dat here.
No disrespect to you Bronwen but that IS the way MY Bible reads! I quoted it exactly as it appears.
Esther 1:8 and drinking was according to the law; no one was compelled to drink, for the king had directed all the officials of his palace to serve only as each guest desired.
I see this verse as giving us the choice to consume or not.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Lil~Basco wrote: No disrespect to you Bronwen but that IS the way MY Bible reads! I quoted it exactly as it appears. Then I presume that you are using the (Calvinist) Amplified Bible or something similar. That is fine, as long as it is understood that the interpolations are just that, and not part of the Bible itself, and that in many cases they have a strong sectarian bias.Lil~Basco wrote: I see this verse [Esther 1:8] as giving us the choice to consume or not.Me too.
Wine or Grape Juice?
valerie wrote: Maybe I don't know very much about this subject but if you don't mind I
would like to comment...
I think the juice was fermented. And I don't think Christ "encouraged"
drunkeness. But there have been many times in history when you drank
what was available to drink whatever it was. And they had storage
problems, no refrigeration to keep things fresh, etc. so that you
drank it the way you got it and were happy.
You don't have to get drunk per se, just have a glass of wine. True, you
can go off the deep end with it, but I don't think that was the original
intention, either.
Okay, I'm done, I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
:-6
The Jews had a special way to keep grapes from fermenting. Alcohol is a killer. Christ has nothing to do with death. There are places on the net that explain the difference between fermented and sweet wine. Scriptural warnings against alcohol are explicit, and scripture does not contradict itself.
would like to comment...
I think the juice was fermented. And I don't think Christ "encouraged"
drunkeness. But there have been many times in history when you drank
what was available to drink whatever it was. And they had storage
problems, no refrigeration to keep things fresh, etc. so that you
drank it the way you got it and were happy.
You don't have to get drunk per se, just have a glass of wine. True, you
can go off the deep end with it, but I don't think that was the original
intention, either.
Okay, I'm done, I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
:-6
The Jews had a special way to keep grapes from fermenting. Alcohol is a killer. Christ has nothing to do with death. There are places on the net that explain the difference between fermented and sweet wine. Scriptural warnings against alcohol are explicit, and scripture does not contradict itself.
-
DesignerGal
- Posts: 2554
- Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2005 11:20 am
Wine or Grape Juice?
Redhawk wrote: The Jews had a special way to keep grapes from fermenting. Alcohol is a killer. Christ has nothing to do with death. There are places on the net that explain the difference between fermented and sweet wine. Scriptural warnings against alcohol are explicit, and scripture does not contradict itself.
WHat?
WHat?
HBIC
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen wrote: 1. FR, we both agreed that this exchange had run its course. I made a further post only because I checked Strong's and found, AS I HAD SUSPECTED, that it does not say what you claim it says. Here is the entry for oinos, from the '21st Century Edition' (page 1518, center column):That is the entire entry. Anybody see anything about.....here?
Here is Strong's entry for 'yayin' (page 1397, bottom of center column):Anybody see anything about.....here either?
Wine is fermented. If it's not fermented, it's not wine. Yes, I know that today you can go into into a liquor store, or perhaps an ordinary grocery store, and buy wine from which the alcohol has been removed. That was not the case in Biblical times.
2. I don't question your etymology of the Hebrew word. Etymology is not meaning; in fact, the meaning of a word is often rather far removed from the etymology.
The English word salary, the money that one earns from a regular job, comes from the Latin word for salt. It does not mean that a company's employees are paid in salt, and yet, an employee who really 'works hard for the money' is said to be 'worth his/her salt'.
The English term 'truck farm(er)' comes from an old French verb (troquer) meaning 'to trade or barter', and the fact that a truck farmer may use a truck (vehicle, from a Greek word) to take his truck (items to be traded) to market is merely a coincidence. Yet when one wants nothing to do with another person, he might say that he will 'have no truck (dealings) with him/her'.
Here is an excellent excerpt for one of Ted's links in the second preceding post: I had added only my own emphasis:
I would add only that the only NT verse I can find favoring abstention from any amount of wine is Romans 14:21: Note that the consumption of meat is discouraged in exactly the same terms as wine. FR, we know you are a teetotaler, that's fine. Are you a vegetarian too? If so, that's fine also. I eat very little meat myself, and I drink very little wine. I'm not, however, a fanatic about either.
3. I did no such thing; rather I made a general statement and directed it to you......as if to say, 'If the shoe fits...'
Is it possible that wine means more than fermented? Has additional meaning not common to everyday use?
Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."
I've had this stuff. It's difficult to describe. Yuck!
Sorry, I'm not able to give the URL.
Here is Strong's entry for 'yayin' (page 1397, bottom of center column):Anybody see anything about.....here either?
Wine is fermented. If it's not fermented, it's not wine. Yes, I know that today you can go into into a liquor store, or perhaps an ordinary grocery store, and buy wine from which the alcohol has been removed. That was not the case in Biblical times.
2. I don't question your etymology of the Hebrew word. Etymology is not meaning; in fact, the meaning of a word is often rather far removed from the etymology.
The English word salary, the money that one earns from a regular job, comes from the Latin word for salt. It does not mean that a company's employees are paid in salt, and yet, an employee who really 'works hard for the money' is said to be 'worth his/her salt'.
The English term 'truck farm(er)' comes from an old French verb (troquer) meaning 'to trade or barter', and the fact that a truck farmer may use a truck (vehicle, from a Greek word) to take his truck (items to be traded) to market is merely a coincidence. Yet when one wants nothing to do with another person, he might say that he will 'have no truck (dealings) with him/her'.
Here is an excellent excerpt for one of Ted's links in the second preceding post: I had added only my own emphasis:
I would add only that the only NT verse I can find favoring abstention from any amount of wine is Romans 14:21: Note that the consumption of meat is discouraged in exactly the same terms as wine. FR, we know you are a teetotaler, that's fine. Are you a vegetarian too? If so, that's fine also. I eat very little meat myself, and I drink very little wine. I'm not, however, a fanatic about either.
3. I did no such thing; rather I made a general statement and directed it to you......as if to say, 'If the shoe fits...'
Is it possible that wine means more than fermented? Has additional meaning not common to everyday use?
Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."
I've had this stuff. It's difficult to describe. Yuck!
Sorry, I'm not able to give the URL.
Wine or Grape Juice?
DesignerGal wrote: WHat?
What?
What?
Wine or Grape Juice?
Redhawk wrote: The Jews had a special way to keep grapes from fermenting. Alcohol is a killer. Christ has nothing to do with death. There are places on the net that explain the difference between fermented and sweet wine. Scriptural warnings against alcohol are explicit, and scripture does not contradict itself.What utter nonsense!! Is it really necessary to begin this fruitless (no pun intended) discussion again? Go back and read the entire thread.
Nearly EVERY Biblical reference, both OT and NT, to the MODERATE consumption of wine is POSITIVE. The sole exception is Paul's admonition to avoid both MEAT and WINE. If you invoke this one verse in order to support your position, and you are not a strict vegetarian, then you are just whistling Dixie. If you know of any verses that I have missed, please cite them. Would you like me to quote some of the ones that approve of and even encourage the moderate consumption of wine? I'll gladly do so.Redhawk wrote: Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."1855?? You have to resurrect an 1855 encyclopedia to support your position? LOL!
I have no idea if the 1855 Americana really says that, but what if it does? How does that support your position? The grapes used to make wine are bred for that purpose and would not, as you youself admit, taste very good as grape juice. Juice grapes are just that and, while fermentation is possible, they would not make very good wine. The references earlier in the thread are to NEW WINE, not SWEET WINE. NEW WINE, as we established early in the thread, has a much higher alcohol content than aged wine becuase the alcohol produced by fermentation has not had time to (partially) evaporate.
Arguing with people whose positions are completely unsupportable is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It's fun at first but it gets boring quickly.
Nearly EVERY Biblical reference, both OT and NT, to the MODERATE consumption of wine is POSITIVE. The sole exception is Paul's admonition to avoid both MEAT and WINE. If you invoke this one verse in order to support your position, and you are not a strict vegetarian, then you are just whistling Dixie. If you know of any verses that I have missed, please cite them. Would you like me to quote some of the ones that approve of and even encourage the moderate consumption of wine? I'll gladly do so.Redhawk wrote: Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."1855?? You have to resurrect an 1855 encyclopedia to support your position? LOL!
I have no idea if the 1855 Americana really says that, but what if it does? How does that support your position? The grapes used to make wine are bred for that purpose and would not, as you youself admit, taste very good as grape juice. Juice grapes are just that and, while fermentation is possible, they would not make very good wine. The references earlier in the thread are to NEW WINE, not SWEET WINE. NEW WINE, as we established early in the thread, has a much higher alcohol content than aged wine becuase the alcohol produced by fermentation has not had time to (partially) evaporate.
Arguing with people whose positions are completely unsupportable is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It's fun at first but it gets boring quickly.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen wrote: What utter nonsense!! Is it really necessary to begin this fruitless (no pun intended) discussion again? Go back and read the entire thread.
Nearly EVERY Biblical reference, both OT and NT, to the MODERATE consumption of wine is POSITIVE. The sole exception is Paul's admonition to avoid both MEAT and WINE. If you invoke this one verse in order to support your position, and you are not a strict vegetarian, then you are just whistling Dixie. If you know of any verses that I have missed, please cite them. Would you like me to quote some of the ones that approve of and even encourage the moderate consumption of wine? I'll gladly do so.1855?? You have to resurrect an 1855 encyclopedia to support your position? LOL!
I have no idea if the 1855 Americana really says that, but what if it does? How does that support your position? The grapes used to make wine are bred for that purpose and would not, as you youself admit, taste very good as grape juice. Juice grapes are just that and, while fermentation is possible, they would not make very good wine. The references earlier in the thread are to NEW WINE, not SWEET WINE. NEW WINE, as we established early in the thread, has a much higher alcohol content than aged wine becuase the alcohol produced by fermentation has not had time to (partially) evaporate.
Arguing with people whose positions are completely unsupportable is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It's fun at first but it gets boring quickly.
What did you resurrect to 'prove' that alcoholic wine is a good thing? And prove to me why Christ would promote disease by approving alcohol, and that He actually did approve, when first He did not?
I don't need to read the whole thread to know what has been going on here. And a little bit of wine is like a little bit of cancer and just as insidious.
Whatever benefits from wine are promoted by the little winemakers, are to be found in more healthful food items, that do NOT carry the risk of addiction.
Alcohol is a mind-altering drug and when your mind is altered, you are susceptible to all the deceptions satan has to offer. Statistics are everywhere from abuses of women and children, to deaths on the highway, to........ad infinitum. The avalanche starts with a single snowflake. Eh?
===========================================
"Tell a lie long enough, and everyone will eventually believe it" is true with a great number of Bible subjects, and the topic of wine is no exception.
In this compilation, I would like to prove that usage of the word "wine" does NOT always infer a fermented beverage. It is a generic word (meaning fermented or unfermented), not only in the old & new testaments, but also in the secular world. Let's begin by acknowledging just a few reputable sources. The following material is just a portion of a list which comes from F. R. Lees' work, The Bible Wine Question.
1. Aristotle ...new wine "it is WINE in name, but not in effect..." (4th century B.C.)
2. Callixenus ...they "were trampling on the grapes, and the NEW-WINE (gleukos) ran out over the whole road..." (300 B.C.)
3. Papias ..."Each grape shall yield 21`five and twenty measures of WINE (oinos)..." (90 A.D.)
4. Babylonian paraphrase on Genesis 27:25 speaks of "WINE reserved in its grapes."
5. The Gemara speaks of "WINE preserved in its grapes."
6. Suidas... "GLEUKUS ...the droppings of the grapes before being trodden..." (950 A.D.)
7. Sir Thomas Herbert speaks of WINE gotten from wounding the Toddy Tree and catching the juice (1638 A.D.)
8. John Parkinson under the heading "Vines" says: "The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grape is called VINUM, WINE..." (1640 A.D.)
9. Henry Southwell speaking of martyrs said that they were "like grapes when pressed, they yield luxuriant WINE" (1660 A.D.)
10. Thomas Blount speaks of must as NEW-WINE, or, "that which is first pressed out of the grape." (1670 A.D.)
11. Edward Phillips says of must, "WINE newly pressed from the grapes (1670 A.D.)
12. J.W. Gent speaks of "WINE-cinder" and "cherry-WINE." The juice of the cherry is "gently pressed" and makes "a very pleasant WINE" (1676 A.D.)
13. W. Robertson, "WINE; Vinum ... New-WINE; Mustum - New WINE that runs out with-out pressing." (1693 A.D.)
14. Thomas Sprat speaks of vessels into which is put "cute or unfermented WINE." (1702 A.D.)
15. J.M. Gesner says: "Once for all it must be observed, that the words VINUM (wine), VITIS (vine), UVAE (grape-clusters), and VINEA (vineyard), as kindred terms are sometimes used synonymously..." and "The juice of apples, pears, pomegranates, and sorbs, was called VINUM." (1730 A.D.)
16. Miller's Gardener's Dictionary: "The first time they lower the great beams upon the grapes, they (the French) call the WINE that runs out the WINE of Guotte, because it is the finest and most exquisite in the grape ... The WINE strains from the press into a puncheon ... Vin Bourra, as they call it, i.e., a new and sweet white WINE that has not worked..." (1748 A.D.)
17. E. Chambers speaks of, "Sweet WINE" which has not yet fermented; WINE which is called "Mere-goutte," mother-drop, which is the virgin-WINE; Burnt WINE is "boiled up with sugar." (1750 A.D.)
18. Samuel Johnson speaks of Must as "New WINE" (1773 A.D.)
19. John Parkhurst tells of Ovid applying the Latin "mecum" to mean "pure WINE as it is pressed out of the grapes."
20. J.F. Schleusner: "OINOS; generally VINUM liquor expressed from grapes whether new or old ...OINOS neos, VINUM novum i.e., must, alias gleukos...GLEUKOS, prop erly the liquor which drops from the grape before treading." (1810 A.D.)
21. Gesenius (in the last edition of his lexicon, 1844): "TIROSH, must, of the juice of the grape." (1844 A.D.)
22. James Donegan: "GLEUKOS; new, unfermented WINE, must ...SIRAION...a WINE prepared by boiling grapes..." (1826A.D.)
23. Noah Webster: "Must, New WINE; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." (1828 A.D.)
24. S. Lee: "Ahsis; Literally, trodden. New WINE; the juice of the grape..." (1830 A.D.)
25. John Avenarius has: "Ahsis - mustum, which is recently expressed juice. German susz: susur WEIN..." (1588 A.D.)
26. Dr. Ure: "Juice, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language sweet WINE." (1836 A.D.)
27. H. Bullinger speaks of WINE running out of the wine-press (1573 A.D.)
28. Bretschneider: "Oinos neos, mustum. Sept. for ahsis and tirosh. 2...Gleukos, mustum. That which drops from the grapes before being trodden. Acts 2:13. Job 32:19 where the Hebrew is yayin." (1840A.D.)
29. Baron Liebig: "If a flask be filled with grape juice and made air-tight, and then kept for a few hours in boiling water. .. THE WINE does not now ferment." (1844 A.D.)
30. Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."
Hopefully, these authorities will help offset some of the unqualified statements of others. Just because we (today in America) use the word "wine" to indicate that which is intoxicating doesn't mean that it was always used in that way! Fairness and honesty demands that we understand this topic from their perspective, not ours.
By Jeff Belknap
============================
Why don't you find modern scientific proof that disallows history.
Enjoy!
Nearly EVERY Biblical reference, both OT and NT, to the MODERATE consumption of wine is POSITIVE. The sole exception is Paul's admonition to avoid both MEAT and WINE. If you invoke this one verse in order to support your position, and you are not a strict vegetarian, then you are just whistling Dixie. If you know of any verses that I have missed, please cite them. Would you like me to quote some of the ones that approve of and even encourage the moderate consumption of wine? I'll gladly do so.1855?? You have to resurrect an 1855 encyclopedia to support your position? LOL!
I have no idea if the 1855 Americana really says that, but what if it does? How does that support your position? The grapes used to make wine are bred for that purpose and would not, as you youself admit, taste very good as grape juice. Juice grapes are just that and, while fermentation is possible, they would not make very good wine. The references earlier in the thread are to NEW WINE, not SWEET WINE. NEW WINE, as we established early in the thread, has a much higher alcohol content than aged wine becuase the alcohol produced by fermentation has not had time to (partially) evaporate.
Arguing with people whose positions are completely unsupportable is a lot like shooting fish in a barrel. It's fun at first but it gets boring quickly.
What did you resurrect to 'prove' that alcoholic wine is a good thing? And prove to me why Christ would promote disease by approving alcohol, and that He actually did approve, when first He did not?
I don't need to read the whole thread to know what has been going on here. And a little bit of wine is like a little bit of cancer and just as insidious.
Whatever benefits from wine are promoted by the little winemakers, are to be found in more healthful food items, that do NOT carry the risk of addiction.
Alcohol is a mind-altering drug and when your mind is altered, you are susceptible to all the deceptions satan has to offer. Statistics are everywhere from abuses of women and children, to deaths on the highway, to........ad infinitum. The avalanche starts with a single snowflake. Eh?
===========================================
"Tell a lie long enough, and everyone will eventually believe it" is true with a great number of Bible subjects, and the topic of wine is no exception.
In this compilation, I would like to prove that usage of the word "wine" does NOT always infer a fermented beverage. It is a generic word (meaning fermented or unfermented), not only in the old & new testaments, but also in the secular world. Let's begin by acknowledging just a few reputable sources. The following material is just a portion of a list which comes from F. R. Lees' work, The Bible Wine Question.
1. Aristotle ...new wine "it is WINE in name, but not in effect..." (4th century B.C.)
2. Callixenus ...they "were trampling on the grapes, and the NEW-WINE (gleukos) ran out over the whole road..." (300 B.C.)
3. Papias ..."Each grape shall yield 21`five and twenty measures of WINE (oinos)..." (90 A.D.)
4. Babylonian paraphrase on Genesis 27:25 speaks of "WINE reserved in its grapes."
5. The Gemara speaks of "WINE preserved in its grapes."
6. Suidas... "GLEUKUS ...the droppings of the grapes before being trodden..." (950 A.D.)
7. Sir Thomas Herbert speaks of WINE gotten from wounding the Toddy Tree and catching the juice (1638 A.D.)
8. John Parkinson under the heading "Vines" says: "The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grape is called VINUM, WINE..." (1640 A.D.)
9. Henry Southwell speaking of martyrs said that they were "like grapes when pressed, they yield luxuriant WINE" (1660 A.D.)
10. Thomas Blount speaks of must as NEW-WINE, or, "that which is first pressed out of the grape." (1670 A.D.)
11. Edward Phillips says of must, "WINE newly pressed from the grapes (1670 A.D.)
12. J.W. Gent speaks of "WINE-cinder" and "cherry-WINE." The juice of the cherry is "gently pressed" and makes "a very pleasant WINE" (1676 A.D.)
13. W. Robertson, "WINE; Vinum ... New-WINE; Mustum - New WINE that runs out with-out pressing." (1693 A.D.)
14. Thomas Sprat speaks of vessels into which is put "cute or unfermented WINE." (1702 A.D.)
15. J.M. Gesner says: "Once for all it must be observed, that the words VINUM (wine), VITIS (vine), UVAE (grape-clusters), and VINEA (vineyard), as kindred terms are sometimes used synonymously..." and "The juice of apples, pears, pomegranates, and sorbs, was called VINUM." (1730 A.D.)
16. Miller's Gardener's Dictionary: "The first time they lower the great beams upon the grapes, they (the French) call the WINE that runs out the WINE of Guotte, because it is the finest and most exquisite in the grape ... The WINE strains from the press into a puncheon ... Vin Bourra, as they call it, i.e., a new and sweet white WINE that has not worked..." (1748 A.D.)
17. E. Chambers speaks of, "Sweet WINE" which has not yet fermented; WINE which is called "Mere-goutte," mother-drop, which is the virgin-WINE; Burnt WINE is "boiled up with sugar." (1750 A.D.)
18. Samuel Johnson speaks of Must as "New WINE" (1773 A.D.)
19. John Parkhurst tells of Ovid applying the Latin "mecum" to mean "pure WINE as it is pressed out of the grapes."
20. J.F. Schleusner: "OINOS; generally VINUM liquor expressed from grapes whether new or old ...OINOS neos, VINUM novum i.e., must, alias gleukos...GLEUKOS, prop erly the liquor which drops from the grape before treading." (1810 A.D.)
21. Gesenius (in the last edition of his lexicon, 1844): "TIROSH, must, of the juice of the grape." (1844 A.D.)
22. James Donegan: "GLEUKOS; new, unfermented WINE, must ...SIRAION...a WINE prepared by boiling grapes..." (1826A.D.)
23. Noah Webster: "Must, New WINE; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." (1828 A.D.)
24. S. Lee: "Ahsis; Literally, trodden. New WINE; the juice of the grape..." (1830 A.D.)
25. John Avenarius has: "Ahsis - mustum, which is recently expressed juice. German susz: susur WEIN..." (1588 A.D.)
26. Dr. Ure: "Juice, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language sweet WINE." (1836 A.D.)
27. H. Bullinger speaks of WINE running out of the wine-press (1573 A.D.)
28. Bretschneider: "Oinos neos, mustum. Sept. for ahsis and tirosh. 2...Gleukos, mustum. That which drops from the grapes before being trodden. Acts 2:13. Job 32:19 where the Hebrew is yayin." (1840A.D.)
29. Baron Liebig: "If a flask be filled with grape juice and made air-tight, and then kept for a few hours in boiling water. .. THE WINE does not now ferment." (1844 A.D.)
30. Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."
Hopefully, these authorities will help offset some of the unqualified statements of others. Just because we (today in America) use the word "wine" to indicate that which is intoxicating doesn't mean that it was always used in that way! Fairness and honesty demands that we understand this topic from their perspective, not ours.
By Jeff Belknap
============================
Why don't you find modern scientific proof that disallows history.
Enjoy!
Wine or Grape Juice?
Redhawk wrote: What did you resurrect to 'prove' that alcoholic wine is a good thing? And prove to me why Christ would promote disease by approving alcohol, and that He actually did approve, when first He did not?
I don't need to read the whole thread to know what has been going on here. And a little bit of wine is like a little bit of cancer and just as insidious.
Whatever benefits from wine are promoted by the little winemakers, are to be found in more healthful food items, that do NOT carry the risk of addiction.
Alcohol is a mind-altering drug and when your mind is altered, you are susceptible to all the deceptions satan has to offer. Statistics are everywhere from abuses of women and children, to deaths on the highway, to........ad infinitum. The avalanche starts with a single snowflake. Eh?Red, you are obviously a nut case of the first magnitude with whom any sort of rational argument would be futile.
'Wine' that is not fermented is not wine. That the WORD has been used in various figurative, literary contexts is not in doubt. Nearly all of the Biblical references to wine are in contexts that make the meaning clear. Do you know any Jews? Ask them what Jews drink at wedding celebrations, wine or Welchade. If you read the story of the Wedding Feast at Cana, it is quite obvious that wine, not Welchade, is being drunk by all, including Jesus.
'Every man puts forth first the good Welchade and when all have drunk freely, Welchade which is poorer, but you have kept the good Welchade until now' ??? Gimme a break!
You can consult any reliable Biblical concordance like Young's or Strong's and you will find no reference to either the Hebrew or Greek words for wine meaning anything but wine, you find such nonsense only in the apologist material of lunatic-fringe sects like your own.
When you gotta rant, rave and lie, especially lie, to support your religious beliefs, it might be time to look for a new affiliation.
Also, when you cut and paste vast quantities of garbage, it is common courtesy to give the source.
Now, having gotten all of that off my chest, let me repeat what I said early in the thread. There is nothing at all wrong with being a teetotaller. I don't know any but no doubt they exist, and that's fine with me.
The fact remains, nearly ALL of the Biblical references to the consumption of wine in moderation present it in a posÃÂtive light. I challenged you to cite any exceptions, Biblical that is, apart from the one I noted myself, and you have failed to do so. QED.
Edited later to add the following:Red, I was in a bad mood when I posted the above (allergy season, y'know) and I want to apologize to you and to everyone else reading this post for my bad manners. You are probably not a nut case and your affiliation may even fall short of the lunatic fringe.
I'll be happy to continue this discussion with you if we can take it in a meaningful direction rather than just going over what has already been beaten to death. This is a discussion forum, not a soapbox, and you are expected to support your assertions and your position - so am I.
Every physician I know says that a glass of wine, especially red wine, is very beneficial to someone my age, and there is much medical literature on the subject. Right now, there is a spate of Bordeaux from France here in Germany and one can buy a bottle of excellent 2004 product for under 2 Euro. It's delicious AND good for the bod, in moderation, of course.
Of course, Welchade is refreshing too. Ya pays yer money and takes yer cherce. I respect your choice of beverages to the extent that you respect mine.
I would once again suggest that you review the entire thread. If you find anything under my name that you can document as being incorrect or misleading, I would hope that you would call it to my attention.
Far Rider tried to defend the position you are taking but was unable to do so. He finally lost his credibility by claiming that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance states that the word 'wine' in the Bible can refer to either fermented or unfermented grape juice, when in fact it does not state that, nor anything that by any stretch of the imagination could be so interpreted. But perhaps you can do better.
I don't need to read the whole thread to know what has been going on here. And a little bit of wine is like a little bit of cancer and just as insidious.
Whatever benefits from wine are promoted by the little winemakers, are to be found in more healthful food items, that do NOT carry the risk of addiction.
Alcohol is a mind-altering drug and when your mind is altered, you are susceptible to all the deceptions satan has to offer. Statistics are everywhere from abuses of women and children, to deaths on the highway, to........ad infinitum. The avalanche starts with a single snowflake. Eh?Red, you are obviously a nut case of the first magnitude with whom any sort of rational argument would be futile.
'Wine' that is not fermented is not wine. That the WORD has been used in various figurative, literary contexts is not in doubt. Nearly all of the Biblical references to wine are in contexts that make the meaning clear. Do you know any Jews? Ask them what Jews drink at wedding celebrations, wine or Welchade. If you read the story of the Wedding Feast at Cana, it is quite obvious that wine, not Welchade, is being drunk by all, including Jesus.
'Every man puts forth first the good Welchade and when all have drunk freely, Welchade which is poorer, but you have kept the good Welchade until now' ??? Gimme a break!
You can consult any reliable Biblical concordance like Young's or Strong's and you will find no reference to either the Hebrew or Greek words for wine meaning anything but wine, you find such nonsense only in the apologist material of lunatic-fringe sects like your own.
When you gotta rant, rave and lie, especially lie, to support your religious beliefs, it might be time to look for a new affiliation.
Also, when you cut and paste vast quantities of garbage, it is common courtesy to give the source.
Now, having gotten all of that off my chest, let me repeat what I said early in the thread. There is nothing at all wrong with being a teetotaller. I don't know any but no doubt they exist, and that's fine with me.
The fact remains, nearly ALL of the Biblical references to the consumption of wine in moderation present it in a posÃÂtive light. I challenged you to cite any exceptions, Biblical that is, apart from the one I noted myself, and you have failed to do so. QED.
Edited later to add the following:Red, I was in a bad mood when I posted the above (allergy season, y'know) and I want to apologize to you and to everyone else reading this post for my bad manners. You are probably not a nut case and your affiliation may even fall short of the lunatic fringe.
I'll be happy to continue this discussion with you if we can take it in a meaningful direction rather than just going over what has already been beaten to death. This is a discussion forum, not a soapbox, and you are expected to support your assertions and your position - so am I.
Every physician I know says that a glass of wine, especially red wine, is very beneficial to someone my age, and there is much medical literature on the subject. Right now, there is a spate of Bordeaux from France here in Germany and one can buy a bottle of excellent 2004 product for under 2 Euro. It's delicious AND good for the bod, in moderation, of course.
Of course, Welchade is refreshing too. Ya pays yer money and takes yer cherce. I respect your choice of beverages to the extent that you respect mine.
I would once again suggest that you review the entire thread. If you find anything under my name that you can document as being incorrect or misleading, I would hope that you would call it to my attention.
Far Rider tried to defend the position you are taking but was unable to do so. He finally lost his credibility by claiming that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance states that the word 'wine' in the Bible can refer to either fermented or unfermented grape juice, when in fact it does not state that, nor anything that by any stretch of the imagination could be so interpreted. But perhaps you can do better.
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
Wine or Grape Juice?
I think the wine Jesus made at Cana was probably fermented. It is traditional to take fermented wine at parties. I think Jesus occasionally drank fermented wine because there is much Scriptural evidence for it and because this was His way of being with people. In Middle Eastern culture at the time, the greatest token of friendship you could do for anyone was not to invite them over to eat and drink with you- it was to invite youself to their place and eat and drink what they placed before you. If people offered Jesus fermented wine, I don't believe He ever refused it, because He loved people. I doubt He ever drank enough to become the least bit intoxicated.
However, the wine used in communion is a symbol of the blood of Christ. Yeast is a Biblical symbol of sin. The wine used in the sanctuary services was always unfermented grape juice. Likewise, the bread was without yeast. At Passover, parents did not have their children hunt for "easter eggs." They had them hunt for leavened bread (with yeast) and carry it out of the house before the Passover meal was taken.
Because Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life, wine fermented with yeast is not an appropriate symbol of His blood. Likewise, the bread used in communion should be unleavened, for the same reason.
1 Corinthians 5:6-8
Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?
7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
However, the wine used in communion is a symbol of the blood of Christ. Yeast is a Biblical symbol of sin. The wine used in the sanctuary services was always unfermented grape juice. Likewise, the bread was without yeast. At Passover, parents did not have their children hunt for "easter eggs." They had them hunt for leavened bread (with yeast) and carry it out of the house before the Passover meal was taken.
Because Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life, wine fermented with yeast is not an appropriate symbol of His blood. Likewise, the bread used in communion should be unleavened, for the same reason.
1 Corinthians 5:6-8
Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?
7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
Look what the cat dragged in.
Wine or Grape Juice?
telaquapacky wrote: 1. Yeast is a Biblical symbol of sin.
2. The wine used in the sanctuary services was always unfermented grape juice.
3. Likewise, the bread was without yeast.
4. ...wine fermented with yeast is not an appropriate symbol of His blood.
5. Likewise, the bread used in communion should be unleavened, for the same reason.1. You say a Biblical symbol. Where is that to be found, Biblically?
2. Please substantiate this from non-sectarian or authentic Jewish sources, not SDA apologist material. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking for substantiation.
3. The bread was without yeast in memory of the original Passover.
4. Most of Christianity disagrees with you. To say that Welchade symbolizes Christ's precious blood is really quite silly. The point is, He offered WINE as His blood at the Last Supper and instructed His community to do the same in His memory. That pretty much settles it.
5. Some denoms use leavened bread and some unleavened.
In case tel refuses to do so, can anyone else here provide a Biblical reference for yeast as a symbol of sin?
2. The wine used in the sanctuary services was always unfermented grape juice.
3. Likewise, the bread was without yeast.
4. ...wine fermented with yeast is not an appropriate symbol of His blood.
5. Likewise, the bread used in communion should be unleavened, for the same reason.1. You say a Biblical symbol. Where is that to be found, Biblically?
2. Please substantiate this from non-sectarian or authentic Jewish sources, not SDA apologist material. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking for substantiation.
3. The bread was without yeast in memory of the original Passover.
4. Most of Christianity disagrees with you. To say that Welchade symbolizes Christ's precious blood is really quite silly. The point is, He offered WINE as His blood at the Last Supper and instructed His community to do the same in His memory. That pretty much settles it.
5. Some denoms use leavened bread and some unleavened.
In case tel refuses to do so, can anyone else here provide a Biblical reference for yeast as a symbol of sin?
Wine or Grape Juice?
sigh
Here we go again. Bronwen you are correct in the wine.
In studying translation in both Hebrew and Greek it is pointed out and well known that the wine mentioned in the Bible is fermented. In Greek the work "trux" is wekkchade and contrary to what others say "oinos" is, according to the specialists,
fermented wine.
Shalom
Ted
Here we go again. Bronwen you are correct in the wine.
In studying translation in both Hebrew and Greek it is pointed out and well known that the wine mentioned in the Bible is fermented. In Greek the work "trux" is wekkchade and contrary to what others say "oinos" is, according to the specialists,
fermented wine.
Shalom
Ted
Wine or Grape Juice?
Ted wrote: sighHere we go again. Bronwen you are correct in the wine.
In studying translation in both Hebrew and Greek it is pointed out and well known that the wine mentioned in the Bible is fermented. In Greek the work "trux" is wekkchade and contrary to what others say "oinos" is, according to the specialists, fermented wine.Since we haven't heard from Red or tel, I did some research on 'yeast' in the Bible myself.
Having returned to Germany, I no longer have English-language concordances available to me. There may be a library somewhere around here that has one, but if so, I don't know about it, so I must make do with German concordances, and therein I find only three references under Hefe, the German word for yeast. They are: Psalms 75:7-9, Is 25:6, and Jer 48:11. All three of these seem to be alluding to the scum or dregs of wine; that is, the yeast sediment that remains after fermentation is complete, and which must be filtered out before the wine can be consumed, and in that sense, with a considerable stretch of the imagination, a parallel with sin might be inferred. This filtration in NO way, however, demeans the wine itself. In fact, here is the verse from Isaiah, courtesy of the online New English Translation (NET):The Lord who commands armies will hold a banquet for all the nations on this mountain. [Mt. Zion - Br.]
At this banquet there will be plenty of meat and aged wine –tender meat and choicest wine.According to the NET footnote, the Hebrew implies that the dregs will be filtered out, leaving only the finest of wine. Anybody see anything negative, sinful, or derogatory about wine in this verse?
In studying translation in both Hebrew and Greek it is pointed out and well known that the wine mentioned in the Bible is fermented. In Greek the work "trux" is wekkchade and contrary to what others say "oinos" is, according to the specialists, fermented wine.Since we haven't heard from Red or tel, I did some research on 'yeast' in the Bible myself.
Having returned to Germany, I no longer have English-language concordances available to me. There may be a library somewhere around here that has one, but if so, I don't know about it, so I must make do with German concordances, and therein I find only three references under Hefe, the German word for yeast. They are: Psalms 75:7-9, Is 25:6, and Jer 48:11. All three of these seem to be alluding to the scum or dregs of wine; that is, the yeast sediment that remains after fermentation is complete, and which must be filtered out before the wine can be consumed, and in that sense, with a considerable stretch of the imagination, a parallel with sin might be inferred. This filtration in NO way, however, demeans the wine itself. In fact, here is the verse from Isaiah, courtesy of the online New English Translation (NET):The Lord who commands armies will hold a banquet for all the nations on this mountain. [Mt. Zion - Br.]
At this banquet there will be plenty of meat and aged wine –tender meat and choicest wine.According to the NET footnote, the Hebrew implies that the dregs will be filtered out, leaving only the finest of wine. Anybody see anything negative, sinful, or derogatory about wine in this verse?
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen:-6
I happen to like the odd glass of wine so I see no problem at all.
I was thinking that Jesus probably joined the boys at the pub on thursday evenings. It would not have happened on Friday as sundown is the biginning of the Sabbath though I see nothing wrong with a glass of wine on the sabbath. In fact there are many in our congregation that go to the pub for lunch after Sunday services.. It is an absolutely great way to enjoy the companionship that the community tries to create.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I happen to like the odd glass of wine so I see no problem at all.
I was thinking that Jesus probably joined the boys at the pub on thursday evenings. It would not have happened on Friday as sundown is the biginning of the Sabbath though I see nothing wrong with a glass of wine on the sabbath. In fact there are many in our congregation that go to the pub for lunch after Sunday services.. It is an absolutely great way to enjoy the companionship that the community tries to create.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Wine or Grape Juice?
Ted wrote: I happen to like the odd glass of wine so I see no problem at all.As I said previously, I drink very little wine and I eat very little meat. Maybe three or four times a year I get a craving for a Big Mac, so I go have one. I don't think that will hurt me much, but it's quite obvious that a Big Mac every day is much more harmful than a glass of wine every day.
Claiming that Jesus Christ never drank wine is completely unsupportable and, frankly, brands any sect that teaches that as not only anti-intellectual but also completely out of touch with the core and the spirit (no pun intended) of Christianity. Like 'creationism' and other ridiculous beliefs, it has more to do with politics, with separating 'us' from 'them'.
Claiming that Jesus Christ never drank wine is completely unsupportable and, frankly, brands any sect that teaches that as not only anti-intellectual but also completely out of touch with the core and the spirit (no pun intended) of Christianity. Like 'creationism' and other ridiculous beliefs, it has more to do with politics, with separating 'us' from 'them'.
Wine or Grape Juice?
Bronwen:-6
A scripture reading this past Sunday added more support to the fact that the ancient wine of Israel including new wine were alcoholic in content.
In Acts 2:11_15 can be interpreted in no other way. "Cretans and Arabs--in our own language we hear them speaking about God's deeds of power.' All were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'What does this mean? ' But others sneered and said, 'They are filled with new wine.' But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, 'Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you supose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning".
Very clearly the expectation is that new wine makes people drunk. I prefer the aged wine myself. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
A scripture reading this past Sunday added more support to the fact that the ancient wine of Israel including new wine were alcoholic in content.
In Acts 2:11_15 can be interpreted in no other way. "Cretans and Arabs--in our own language we hear them speaking about God's deeds of power.' All were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'What does this mean? ' But others sneered and said, 'They are filled with new wine.' But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, 'Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you supose, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning".
Very clearly the expectation is that new wine makes people drunk. I prefer the aged wine myself. LOL
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
LottomagicZ4941
- Posts: 752
- Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:00 pm
Wine or Grape Juice?
Still have a ton to read on this thread. Will probably post again after reading more.
Current Chruch has both wine and grape juice. The Chruches I previously attended served grape juice. Rememer one gal going on and on once about how the wine in Jesus day was grape juice and several of us laughed. Some Christians are so alchol(sp) phobic(sp?).
Well my ability to spell is going way down hill so I shall go back to sleepus I hopeus.
Lotto
"Going back to sleepus I hopeus."
MagicZ4941
Current Chruch has both wine and grape juice. The Chruches I previously attended served grape juice. Rememer one gal going on and on once about how the wine in Jesus day was grape juice and several of us laughed. Some Christians are so alchol(sp) phobic(sp?).
Well my ability to spell is going way down hill so I shall go back to sleepus I hopeus.
Lotto
"Going back to sleepus I hopeus."
MagicZ4941
Wine or Grape Juice?
Magicz4941:-6
Some churches do indeed, use grape juice. Some supply either. The Roman Catholic Church takes the position that if it is not fermented wine it is improper.
Jesus drank the fermented wine and didn't seem to be bothered by it. The Bible does warn about getting drunk though. Moderate usage was urged.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Some churches do indeed, use grape juice. Some supply either. The Roman Catholic Church takes the position that if it is not fermented wine it is improper.
Jesus drank the fermented wine and didn't seem to be bothered by it. The Bible does warn about getting drunk though. Moderate usage was urged.
Shalom
Ted:-6