spot wrote: Tel, I wonder whether you'd look at http://www.thirdangelsmessage.com/books ... n_book.pdf (it's quite a large download, and I don't expect you to read it all) and give a cursory glance at the style. Would you regard that as mainstream within your tradition? It does convey a contempt for Rome. It also details certain archaeological adventures within Jerusalem that frankly I find unbelievable (I make no comment on the other discovery sections) - would that information be widely regarded as evidence, within your community? Page 76 would be a good place to drop in. I get no impression that the authors are attempting allegory, they portray their story as entirely factual:Spot, that's an "interesting" find. No, that site doesn't have the approval of the official church. I have heard that Adventist Urban Legend before, but I don't know many Adventists who believe it any more than you do. But I do know people who are- shall we say- "zealots," and get excited about contrived stories that appear to verify our Sanctuary doctrine (but only make it look unnecessarily silly). I agree with you, and most Adventists would, that the story told on that website is completely fictitious, and has no helpful effect on Christians.
I have been planning to share our views on the sanctuary in Hebrews and Leviticus and other places in the Bible, when I have time. The truth of it is beautiful- not silly at all. What's sad is that the kooky farce in that website is a very bad introduction to the topic that really detracts rather than helps. If I come across a good website on the subject, I'll let you know. But for now, file the website you cited in the "loose cannon" or "lunatic fringe of the lunatic fringe" file.
Really, Adventists may be nutty, but we're not that nutty (at least not most of us).
The guy in that website is trying to say that the ark of the covenant was buried somewhere in the temple mount. The first version of this myth I heard was that it was buried in the hill of Calvary, and when Christ was crucified, his blood fell onto the ark. Ridiculous.
I have heard that one of the Maccabees books says that Jeremiah had the ark hidden in Mount Nebo. Maybe. It's really not relevant to the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of the sanctuary.
An Open Invitation
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
An Open Invitation
Look what the cat dragged in.
An Open Invitation
telaquapacky wrote: The guy in that website is trying to say that the ark of the covenant was buried somewhere in the temple mount. The first version of this myth I heard was that it was buried in the hill of Calvary, and when Christ was crucified, his blood fell onto the ark. Ridiculous.Same plot - the preceding chapter describes how, prior to the Exile, the ark was secretly moved to a hidden cave beneath Golgotha. That's what you get for skim-reading, but I don't blame you at all. OK, we can set that book aside, it's not part of the tradition you're bringing here.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
An Open Invitation
spot:-6
I am somewhat familiar with the archaeology of the Middle East. To my knowledge none of this has been published in any reputable scholarly journal. I'm sure that I would have seen it somewhere or heard about it from friends and doctorates who are Bible scholars.
I looked at the Bibliogranphy and not one scholarly journal is listed. None of this has been published for peer review. I am most certain that if any of this were actual fact it would have made good meadia fodder and would have been published widely and continued to be published widely.
When I saw Ms. White's name in the bibiography all credibility went out the window. She is not nor has she ever been recognized beyond her own little circle of friends and as far as I know the SDA church.
There is absolutely nothing in there that comes anywhere close to what the church in general accepts. Considering the URL I would say it is just a modern myth designed to make some money.
Can you imagine the excitement if any of it could be proven an historical reality. My heavens I am holding a piece of the original stone tablet that God is said to have written on or I am looking at the Arc of the Covenant. Israel would be clamoring for and demanding its return.
As for the stone tablet and the Hebrew cemetary the desert has been well and intensely surved by reputable archaeologists and they have found not one shred of evidence for the Exodus as recorded in the Bible. It did not happen that way. Six hundred thousand people would make a footprint in the desrt that 4 or 5 thousand years could never wipe out.
The suspicion that the Hebrews, if there was an exodus, probably crossed the Reed Sea and not the Red Sea. There has not been one shred of evidence for such a large destruction of Egyptian soldiers. As for any Exodus, if there was one it was probably a small group or extended family or tribe but not 600 000. There is also a suspician that the story may have been related to the expulsion of the Hysksos, back to Canaan, from the Nile delta.
As for Moses or Joseph being mentioned in hieroglyphics, I do not believe this has ever been proven by any scholarly work. Once again this would be an exciting development and would be published world wide.
Biblical scholars and historians are not convinced that Moses ever lived. He may have but it is difficult to prove because this would be pre-history. The same goes for Joseph.
Absolutely none of this matters to the value of the Bible if we begin to understand the ancient writing style of midrash and its use of metaphor. The meaning of the story is more important than the historicity or lack thereof.
I hope this helps.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I am somewhat familiar with the archaeology of the Middle East. To my knowledge none of this has been published in any reputable scholarly journal. I'm sure that I would have seen it somewhere or heard about it from friends and doctorates who are Bible scholars.
I looked at the Bibliogranphy and not one scholarly journal is listed. None of this has been published for peer review. I am most certain that if any of this were actual fact it would have made good meadia fodder and would have been published widely and continued to be published widely.
When I saw Ms. White's name in the bibiography all credibility went out the window. She is not nor has she ever been recognized beyond her own little circle of friends and as far as I know the SDA church.
There is absolutely nothing in there that comes anywhere close to what the church in general accepts. Considering the URL I would say it is just a modern myth designed to make some money.
Can you imagine the excitement if any of it could be proven an historical reality. My heavens I am holding a piece of the original stone tablet that God is said to have written on or I am looking at the Arc of the Covenant. Israel would be clamoring for and demanding its return.
As for the stone tablet and the Hebrew cemetary the desert has been well and intensely surved by reputable archaeologists and they have found not one shred of evidence for the Exodus as recorded in the Bible. It did not happen that way. Six hundred thousand people would make a footprint in the desrt that 4 or 5 thousand years could never wipe out.
The suspicion that the Hebrews, if there was an exodus, probably crossed the Reed Sea and not the Red Sea. There has not been one shred of evidence for such a large destruction of Egyptian soldiers. As for any Exodus, if there was one it was probably a small group or extended family or tribe but not 600 000. There is also a suspician that the story may have been related to the expulsion of the Hysksos, back to Canaan, from the Nile delta.
As for Moses or Joseph being mentioned in hieroglyphics, I do not believe this has ever been proven by any scholarly work. Once again this would be an exciting development and would be published world wide.
Biblical scholars and historians are not convinced that Moses ever lived. He may have but it is difficult to prove because this would be pre-history. The same goes for Joseph.
Absolutely none of this matters to the value of the Bible if we begin to understand the ancient writing style of midrash and its use of metaphor. The meaning of the story is more important than the historicity or lack thereof.
I hope this helps.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An Open Invitation
Ted wrote: As for any Exodus, if there was one it was probably a small group or extended family or tribe but not 600 000.I find when reading the old testament that putting "heads of households" or "commanders" for "thousands" and "footsoldiers" for "hundreds" makes the stories far easier to comprehend. I know of absolutely no linguistic authority for doing so.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
An Open Invitation
spot:-6
As the Bible developed the writers and redactors embellished the stories to make them more apologetic. This is not wrong. It is part of the style of writing designed to make a very strong point. Look at the age of Methusala. I don't think so. The average life span back then was 30 something.
The number 40 comes up time and again in both the OT and NT. It had some symbolism for the ancients and can also be seen as a way of saying "many".
Also we must not forget the number 666. LOL This says nothing about the number 7.
Shalom
Ted:-6
As the Bible developed the writers and redactors embellished the stories to make them more apologetic. This is not wrong. It is part of the style of writing designed to make a very strong point. Look at the age of Methusala. I don't think so. The average life span back then was 30 something.
The number 40 comes up time and again in both the OT and NT. It had some symbolism for the ancients and can also be seen as a way of saying "many".
Also we must not forget the number 666. LOL This says nothing about the number 7.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An Open Invitation
Ted wrote: spot:-6
As the Bible developed the writers and redactors embellished the stories to make them more apologetic. This is not wrong. It is part of the style of writing designed to make a very strong point. Look at the age of Methusala. I don't think so. The average life span back then was 30 something.
The number 40 comes up time and again in both the OT and NT. It had some symbolism for the ancients and can also be seen as a way of saying "many".
Also we must not forget the number 666. LOL This says nothing about the number 7.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Hello there Ted ole buddy.
Here we go again with midrash. Average lifespan 30? Ted, why ignore what the Bible says about the conditions of the planet and think for a moment instead of being a detractor of the Bible? It says in the scripture that it hadn't ever rained from the sky before the flood of Noah, and everyone lived to a ripe old age. Not only Methusala, but Enoch et al. Haven't they shown that the human being only uses 1/10 of his brain capacity? Well, if we only live to be less than one hundred years old and we were originally designed to live to be a thousand, there's your other 90 %. That would be used for memory and other learned skills etc.
Back to the lack of rain. Why/how could humans live to be so old? The Bible says that the heavens were opened. We all know that the effect of ultraviolet light on everything is devastating. There theory is that a "water canopy" covered the globe before the flood. When it was removed, the ultraviolet light shone through and death certainly began to reign upon this planet. All kinds of it. You just like to detract the word of God, Ted.
Someone with an axe to grind regarding writing style and the scripture got hold of you and now you be one of their greatest proponets.
As the Bible developed the writers and redactors embellished the stories to make them more apologetic. This is not wrong. It is part of the style of writing designed to make a very strong point. Look at the age of Methusala. I don't think so. The average life span back then was 30 something.
The number 40 comes up time and again in both the OT and NT. It had some symbolism for the ancients and can also be seen as a way of saying "many".
Also we must not forget the number 666. LOL This says nothing about the number 7.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Hello there Ted ole buddy.
Here we go again with midrash. Average lifespan 30? Ted, why ignore what the Bible says about the conditions of the planet and think for a moment instead of being a detractor of the Bible? It says in the scripture that it hadn't ever rained from the sky before the flood of Noah, and everyone lived to a ripe old age. Not only Methusala, but Enoch et al. Haven't they shown that the human being only uses 1/10 of his brain capacity? Well, if we only live to be less than one hundred years old and we were originally designed to live to be a thousand, there's your other 90 %. That would be used for memory and other learned skills etc.
Back to the lack of rain. Why/how could humans live to be so old? The Bible says that the heavens were opened. We all know that the effect of ultraviolet light on everything is devastating. There theory is that a "water canopy" covered the globe before the flood. When it was removed, the ultraviolet light shone through and death certainly began to reign upon this planet. All kinds of it. You just like to detract the word of God, Ted.
Someone with an axe to grind regarding writing style and the scripture got hold of you and now you be one of their greatest proponets.
An Open Invitation
downag:-6
Why? It is called reality. The average length of age back then was 25 to 30. People do not and never have lived to be hundreds of years old That is reality. I can't help reality and what God has created. Some folks did live to be 60 and 70 and so on. They were indeed blessed with good health.
Your ideas concerning the "windows of Heaven" fits right in with very primitive thinking. The early people of prehistory, ie, the Genesis people, thought that the ear was flat and stood on 3 or 4 legs. Above the earth was some form of glass dome with "windos" in it. When God wanted it to rain he opened the windows. We know better now. We know there is nor ever was a "dome " over the earth, nor were there windows in what was and is non-existant. We know how rain is formed. It is a natural process that has been in effect since the world began.
You are still harping on midrash instead of learning something about it. I can't help you there.
Shalom
Ted
Why? It is called reality. The average length of age back then was 25 to 30. People do not and never have lived to be hundreds of years old That is reality. I can't help reality and what God has created. Some folks did live to be 60 and 70 and so on. They were indeed blessed with good health.
Your ideas concerning the "windows of Heaven" fits right in with very primitive thinking. The early people of prehistory, ie, the Genesis people, thought that the ear was flat and stood on 3 or 4 legs. Above the earth was some form of glass dome with "windos" in it. When God wanted it to rain he opened the windows. We know better now. We know there is nor ever was a "dome " over the earth, nor were there windows in what was and is non-existant. We know how rain is formed. It is a natural process that has been in effect since the world began.
You are still harping on midrash instead of learning something about it. I can't help you there.
Shalom
Ted
An Open Invitation
Ted, your reality as you put it is based solely upon your own assumption. No record of those times exist, except what we have in the Bible. Reality is, that you assume that since they didn't possess medicine or technology as we have, "they must (reasoning) have had a short lifespan.
The Bible, which has never done me wrong in relying upon its contents- says, "Lean not upon your own "understanding" (reasoning ability).
You should write a book and name it after your theories. It is another Gospel, not the one called the Bible.
In your's there is no Devil, and no one lived a long life before a huge flood, which you probably detract, also.
What say you of the ressurection of Yeshua, Ted? Did that happen, literally?
d:-5
The Bible, which has never done me wrong in relying upon its contents- says, "Lean not upon your own "understanding" (reasoning ability).
You should write a book and name it after your theories. It is another Gospel, not the one called the Bible.
In your's there is no Devil, and no one lived a long life before a huge flood, which you probably detract, also.
What say you of the ressurection of Yeshua, Ted? Did that happen, literally?
d:-5
An Open Invitation
downag:-6
Any good history book or book on prehistory will clearly tell you that folks lived a very short life. Good old Mathusela did not live to the age the Bible says. It does not happen and God has no reason to make it happen. In these days our medical researchers have done exceptionally well in allowing up to live longer lives. On the average women live to about 83 and men a few years less. They now concede that it may be possible to have folks live to 130 or thereabouts. That would be the top end.
"The Bible has never done you me wrong." Good.
You think I should write a book. Nice idea. However I have hundreds in my library and you talk as if I were the only one who thinks as I do. You've sheltered yourself too long. There are thousands if not millions of others who do not think as you do. Get over it. I could give you a list if you would like it.
When it comes to the risen Lord, I have experienced Him. I have experienced the reality of the risen Lord. I don't need to do any more then that. I wasn't there. I do not know what actually took place. My personal belief is that yes Jesus did rise from the grave in an incorruptible body.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Any good history book or book on prehistory will clearly tell you that folks lived a very short life. Good old Mathusela did not live to the age the Bible says. It does not happen and God has no reason to make it happen. In these days our medical researchers have done exceptionally well in allowing up to live longer lives. On the average women live to about 83 and men a few years less. They now concede that it may be possible to have folks live to 130 or thereabouts. That would be the top end.
"The Bible has never done you me wrong." Good.
You think I should write a book. Nice idea. However I have hundreds in my library and you talk as if I were the only one who thinks as I do. You've sheltered yourself too long. There are thousands if not millions of others who do not think as you do. Get over it. I could give you a list if you would like it.
When it comes to the risen Lord, I have experienced Him. I have experienced the reality of the risen Lord. I don't need to do any more then that. I wasn't there. I do not know what actually took place. My personal belief is that yes Jesus did rise from the grave in an incorruptible body.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An Open Invitation
Ted;
You just make it up as you go along (a really neat skill). I'm sure you are having fun, duping the younger folk who frequent these halls.
God reward you according to your works, Ted.
You just make it up as you go along (a really neat skill). I'm sure you are having fun, duping the younger folk who frequent these halls.
God reward you according to your works, Ted.
An Open Invitation
downag:-6
Get a life.
I don't make anything up. There has been much research into what I say. If you don't like it then don't read it.
Get a life.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Get a life.
I don't make anything up. There has been much research into what I say. If you don't like it then don't read it.
Get a life.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An Open Invitation
Ted wrote: I don't make anything up. There has been much research into what I say. If you don't like it then don't read it.I have a suggestion, Ted. I think it might clear the waters into which the pair of you have strayed. You have authorities to hand, you're surrounded by your library. For the next while, instead of giving your own view which has been influenced by what you've read, prefix an appropriate paragraph quote with "As Helgerstadt says in Gospel Patterning, p.216" to make each point. We'd get the benefit of the authority without the seriously disabling need to go and find a copy, and you'd depersonalize the conversation at one end and consequently, in my opinion, at both.
Meanwhile, I think this bickering is at an end.
Meanwhile, I think this bickering is at an end.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
An Open Invitation
spot:-6
That is a good suggestion and I will consider it.
One comment though. I have been on several forums and have been called names before, not by atheists or agnositcs but only by so called Christians. That is not the faith that I adhere to.
Though I do think in the future I will ignore any stupid comments that downag makes.
You are correct it is at an end.
I shan't be leaving though.
Shalom
Ted:-6
That is a good suggestion and I will consider it.
One comment though. I have been on several forums and have been called names before, not by atheists or agnositcs but only by so called Christians. That is not the faith that I adhere to.
Though I do think in the future I will ignore any stupid comments that downag makes.
You are correct it is at an end.
I shan't be leaving though.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An Open Invitation
Ted wrote: I shan't be leaving though.I should think not.
Had I shut things down by speaking with Downag, he might have thought I was taking your side. In speaking to you instead, there is at least no chance that anyone might think I was taking his.
Had I shut things down by speaking with Downag, he might have thought I was taking your side. In speaking to you instead, there is at least no chance that anyone might think I was taking his.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
An Open Invitation
spot:-6
No danger of that here. I was about to cease with this anyway.
Good move. No problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
No danger of that here. I was about to cease with this anyway.
Good move. No problem.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An Open Invitation
Hey, whatever, folks.
No skin off my nose. This is just chewing gum for the mind, for the time being.
Psalm 2 says it best! The heathen rage and God will laugh at their calamity.
I too will chuckle at your consternation and watch your undoing.
d:D
No skin off my nose. This is just chewing gum for the mind, for the time being.
Psalm 2 says it best! The heathen rage and God will laugh at their calamity.
I too will chuckle at your consternation and watch your undoing.
d:D
An Open Invitation
downag wrote: Psalm 2 says it best! The heathen rage and God will laugh at their calamity.
I too will chuckle at your consternation and watch your undoing.That, downag, says a great deal about you, don't you think?
It staggers me that you can behave the way you do here and still feel you're maintaining any semblance of Christian principle.
I too will chuckle at your consternation and watch your undoing.That, downag, says a great deal about you, don't you think?
It staggers me that you can behave the way you do here and still feel you're maintaining any semblance of Christian principle.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
telaquapacky
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:00 pm
An Open Invitation
I found it! I can't believe it's on the Internet for free. My favorite book on the Sanctuary. I'm going to start a new thread just for discussing the sanctuary.
Look what the cat dragged in.