ForumGarden

The last time I wandered out through the garden gate was (to some degree)

because of the unseemly squabbling that was going on. I can't remember who

was being "got at" then, but I do remember referring to a book called "Lord of

the Flies, by one Wm. Golding. Perhaps no-one here has read it. The point of

mentioning it then, as the point is now, is that (in my own opinion) if you don't

like someone's opinion, or you think that they're a nasty person, a stick-

stirrer (possibly mis-splet - Ed.) then simply do not talk to them. Correct their

point of view if you feel like it, but don't go in for character assassination or

gang up on them to force them out or escalate bad feeling. To do that puts

one completely beyond the pale, and shows one up in a very poor light.

HTH.

I remember we had to read The Lord of The Flies at school.

I agree with your comments, Bill.

It does just come down to one person, doesn't it. The reaction must be very satisfying for that one person.

In my opinion to tell a tall tale of the magnitude that a certain person did here and think that they could come back and all would be forgotten, all the while they still continue to tell huge lies (here and on other forums) only shows the sheer arrogance that that person possesses .There is only one person who has caused constant disharmony here - and i have no doubt he will be back to cause some more :-5

Bill Sikes wrote: The last time I wandered out through the garden gate was (to some degree)

because of the unseemly squabbling that was going on. I can't remember who

was being "got at" then, but I do remember referring to a book called "Lord of

the Flies, by one Wm. Golding. Perhaps no-one here has read it. The point of

mentioning it then, as the point is now, is that (in my own opinion) if you don't

like someone's opinion, or you think that they're a nasty person, a stick-

stirrer (possibly mis-splet - Ed.) then simply do not talk to them. Correct their

point of view if you feel like it, but don't go in for character assassination or

gang up on them to force them out or escalate bad feeling. To do that puts

one completely beyond the pale, and shows one up in a very poor light.

HTH.


I agree too, Bill, but...I suppose I'm fortunate, I have distance from what's going on, I'm neither attacking nor feeling attacked. I doubt that I would remain so calm if I was more fully involved...I've seen myself "in action" so to speak and it's not a pleasant sight.

I love the way you themed your post...

What you suggest would be great but you're never going to get

everyone in a community this large to do that. There's always

someone who eventually surprises the heck out of you with their

frustration level and pops in and lashes out.



It's not just "correcting" someone's opinion, I don't think you

can do that. Disagree, sure, or in some cases not say anything,

I have done that. And there are a few here, not going to name

names, that I respect their intelligent arguments whether or not

I agree with their position. And in a couple of cases, I've pm'd

them and told them so.



I don't know about you but I will NOT stand idly by and let someone

here be continually and repeatedly attacked and not say something.

It's just not in my make-up. And if the psychopath gets his jollies

from that, so be it. I tend to think they aren't as good of jollies as

you seem to think they are. Regardless, any others here who read

what I've posted know my stand.



To me, it's a lot like the Kitty Genovese syndrome. I guess my line

in the sand starts at a lot lower level than some people's, and that's

fine by me. In for a penny, in for a pound.



I wouldn't stand by and watch someone beat their dog. I wouldn't

stand by and watch someone try to harm a child. I won't stand by

here and watch someone be attacked, even if it IS only verbally,

it's some really snarky stuff and at the very least has to have some

small sanctions against it.

valerie wrote: What you suggest would be great but you're never going to get

everyone in a community this large to do that. There's always

someone who eventually surprises the heck out of you with their

frustration level and pops in and lashes out.



It's not just "correcting" someone's opinion, I don't think you

can do that. Disagree, sure, or in some cases not say anything,

I have done that. And there are a few here, not going to name

names, that I respect their intelligent arguments whether or not

I agree with their position. And in a couple of cases, I've pm'd

them and told them so.



I don't know about you but I will NOT stand idly by and let someone

here be continually and repeatedly attacked and not say something.

It's just not in my make-up. And if the psychopath gets his jollies

from that, so be it. I tend to think they aren't as good of jollies as

you seem to think they are. Regardless, any others here who read

what I've posted know my stand.



To me, it's a lot like the Kitty Genovese syndrome. I guess my line

in the sand starts at a lot lower level than some people's, and that's

fine by me. In for a penny, in for a pound.



I wouldn't stand by and watch someone beat their dog. I wouldn't

stand by and watch someone try to harm a child. I won't stand by

here and watch someone be attacked, even if it IS only verbally,

it's some really snarky stuff and at the very least has to have some

small sanctions against it.
:yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap

valerie wrote: What you suggest would be great but you're never going to get

everyone in a community this large to do that. There's always

someone who eventually surprises the heck out of you with their

frustration level and pops in and lashes out.



It's not just "correcting" someone's opinion, I don't think you

can do that. Disagree, sure, or in some cases not say anything,

I have done that. And there are a few here, not going to name

names, that I respect their intelligent arguments whether or not

I agree with their position. And in a couple of cases, I've pm'd

them and told them so.



I don't know about you but I will NOT stand idly by and let someone

here be continually and repeatedly attacked and not say something.

It's just not in my make-up. And if the psychopath gets his jollies

from that, so be it. I tend to think they aren't as good of jollies as

you seem to think they are. Regardless, any others here who read

what I've posted know my stand.



To me, it's a lot like the Kitty Genovese syndrome. I guess my line

in the sand starts at a lot lower level than some people's, and that's

fine by me. In for a penny, in for a pound.



I wouldn't stand by and watch someone beat their dog. I wouldn't

stand by and watch someone try to harm a child. I won't stand by

here and watch someone be attacked, even if it IS only verbally,

it's some really snarky stuff and at the very least has to have some

small sanctions against it.


Val i knew there was a reason why i liked you so much :yh_:yh_clap :yh_clap

Lord of the Flies was a good book.

Didn't they chuck all the stick-stirrers off a cliff?

Good answer.

Let 'em fly!

Why on earth would anyone flame you? That is a perfectly respectable,

honest post.



And my point was, I won't stand by whether I'm the only bystander or

a group of 100. I guess I don't have the typical "social expectation".



Theia said something important, I think, that she's not being attacked

or doing the attacking. Perhaps there are some here who might

change their tune (don't mean you in particular, Theia) if they were

the victims of the near relentless onslaught. Maybe they could indeed

ignore it for a while. But I find it hard to believe, given the personal

circumstances of the most recent member attacked, that many would

be able to silently endure that kind of treatment.



I'm helping out whoever. Diuretic, if (I feel like I should say "when"

but I'm restraining myself) someone did "come after" you then I'd

be right there. It just so happens that the people who have been

attacked have been my friends.



I haven't done enough in all cases, and I do feel badly about

gordon artist. I tried a couple times but not enough and not

publicly. A guy who signed each and every post "Take care, Gordon".

All I can say is I will strive to do better in future should the need

arise, and ask that with my track record you take me at my word.



I've read Lord of the Flies. If memory serves, it was all BOYS on that

island?

Is there nothing that Admin can do about the provocateur? Have they been approached with this matter?

valerie wrote: Why on earth would anyone flame you? That is a perfectly respectable,

honest post.



And my point was, I won't stand by whether I'm the only bystander or

a group of 100. I guess I don't have the typical "social expectation".



Theia said something important, I think, that she's not being attacked

or doing the attacking. Perhaps there are some here who might

change their tune (don't mean you in particular, Theia) if they were

the victims of the near relentless onslaught. Maybe they could indeed

ignore it for a while. But I find it hard to believe, given the personal

circumstances of the most recent member attacked, that many would

be able to silently endure that kind of treatment.

I'm helping out whoever. Diuretic, if (I feel like I should say "when"

but I'm restraining myself) someone did "come after" you then I'd

be right there. It just so happens that the people who have been

attacked have been my friends.



I haven't done enough in all cases, and I do feel badly about

gordon artist. I tried a couple times but not enough and not

publicly. A guy who signed each and every post "Take care, Gordon".

All I can say is I will strive to do better in future should the need

arise, and ask that with my track record you take me at my word.



I've read Lord of the Flies. If memory serves, it was all BOYS on that

island?


That's what I was trying to say, Val, that it's easy to keep one's distance if one isn't personally involved and that I would be likely to respond much differently if I was more fully involved.

I agree with OM, I would tell admin if there is a problem. They are always gracious and will help you with a serious problem like this.

OpenMind wrote: Is there nothing that Admin can do about the provocateur? Have they been approached with this matter?


I feel that my point in this thread has been missed.

If there is someone that people feel is causing a problem, the solution is in our

hands. As they say, it takes two to tango.

"Simply do not talk to them. Correct their point of view[1] if you feel like it, but

don't go in for character assassination or gang up on them to force them out or

escalate bad feeling. To do that puts one completely beyond the pale, and

shows one up in a very poor light[2]."



[1] By which I mean put your own point of view, i.e. *discuss*, not *abuse*.

[2] IMO to do that makes one as bad as the opposition.

Mr. Sikes, I respect your thoughtful post.

It's a shame that your first exposure to me was in response to a situation with this person. I'm sorry to guess that the initial impression you had of CherandBuster was not a good one. I do hope you will take into account the plethora of other postings I have made and factor these into a more accurate evaluation of who I am.

Bill, I'm with Valerie on this one. In my over 2000 postings, you'd be hard-pressed to find any type of negative connotation in them. I'm a very kind human being. But when this individual hurts people I've grown to care about, then I put my kindness on the back burner. I'm a loyal and upstanding friend and won't stand for this kind of crap.

I hope you and I can become friends. I like the way you express yourself and I want to hear more from you.

(extends arm for handshake)

Bill, your point wasn't missed, and I responded to it. Here's a link:



http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=10

Bill Sikes wrote: I feel that my point in this thread has been missed.



If there is someone that people feel is causing a problem, the solution is in our

hands. As they say, it takes two to tango.



"Simply do not talk to them. Correct their point of view[1] if you feel like it, but

don't go in for character assassination or gang up on them to force them out or

escalate bad feeling. To do that puts one completely beyond the pale, and

shows one up in a very poor light[2]."







[1] By which I mean put your own point of view, i.e. *discuss*, not *abuse*.



[2] IMO to do that makes one as bad as the opposition.


I re-iterate what Valerie has just posted. Your points have not been missed.

However, none of us confess to be so perfect, neither can I speak for a woman who has a different mind to me. Neither do we live in a Lord of the Flies scenario - in fact, the forum is very far from being an island.

What you say is very true and I have already put this argument in not so many words to one of the 'victims' in another thread.

Whenever I feel inflamed by what may appear to me to be an attack on me, I go away and later, I can come back and answer civilly. If the person persists, I've said my piece and I won't go on. I have persisted, and it gets me nowhere. I'd rather maintain good relations than win my case.

However, the human condition is not this simple, otherwise, I am sure we would not need laws to regulate societies.

When making any point, it may be necessary to leave it at that. At the very least, your thread has spurred a debate on the subject which is good for the whole forum. Yet, newcomers that join at a later date will not have necessarily read this thread, and the learning curve starts all over again.

Instead of re-iterating yourself, try another way of stating your argument - it is a good exercise for the mind and provides another angle for people to view your opinion.

OpenMind wrote: I'd rather maintain good relations than win my case.


Excellent point, Ommmmmm.

I apply this to my marriage on a regular basis.

It's a wise thing to do :-6

Diuretic wrote: And without a trace of sarcasm that's admirable. It's also wise. And mature. And don't you just know there's a "but............." about to happen?



Not this time.



The internet forum victory is empty of celebration or meaning - post coitum animal triste - that's me being insufferably pretentious. But I am doing so to make a point.



Some of us, sadly, don't have your mature response OpenMind. And in that company I include myself at times.


Thank you, Diuretic, but I can't really take credit for this. I have learnt from two sources. First, the bitter experience of arguing for my opinion with a friend combined with learning what happens to the body when in such a state (thus I am really acting out of self-preservation).

The second source were my parents. I can never recall them ever arguing. So, I asked my Mum about this one day and this is what she told me.

Mum and Dad agreed very early on after they'd had their first child never to argue in front of the children. This meant that the one backed up the other and we kids couldn't play them against each other. This meant that they had to wait till they went to bed where, instead of arguing, they discussed the matter quietly. This was Mum's idea originally.

Diuretic wrote: OpenMind - I beg to differ - you can take the credit, be assured of that, you're sharing the wisdom.



On your point about the physical effect. Yes, I know exactly what you mean, all that adrenaline has to go somewhere and the buildup is unhealthy to us. I need to find the both the off button and the will to push it and that's sometimes the only button I should push


These days, I have a darned good motive to keep my cool. My heart just won't take it.

Diuretic wrote: We have much in common


Not you too, Diuretic?:(

Diuretic wrote: 'Fraid so. The nick I chose may hold a clue. Sadly the tablets are necessary in the aftermath.



Anyway, lest the thread turn melancholic let's be glad we can still pound the keyboard and even :guitarist


Absolutely, and there's nothing like a good laugh to cheer the heart.:-6

Bill Sikes wrote: The last time I wandered out through the garden gate was (to some degree)

because of the unseemly squabbling that was going on. I can't remember who

was being "got at" then, but I do remember referring to a book called "Lord of

the Flies, by one Wm. Golding. Perhaps no-one here has read it. The point of

mentioning it then, as the point is now, is that (in my own opinion) if you don't

like someone's opinion, or you think that they're a nasty person, a stick-

stirrer (possibly mis-splet - Ed.) then simply do not talk to them. Correct their

point of view if you feel like it, but don't go in for character assassination or

gang up on them to force them out or escalate bad feeling. To do that puts

one completely beyond the pale, and shows one up in a very poor light.

HTH.


Bill I agree with your post, and as so often is said here, if you don't like it don't look at it, move on, drop it, let it go, block the offender etc. And my personal fave, get a thick skin.

Let's stop dragging people through the mud. It's clear who dislikes who, it's gone fairly public and I think maybe folks should :

~Fight their battles in private amongst themselves and stop making it a public hanging ground,

~Stop bringing forward past issues, just to bash more,

~STOP RISING TO THE BATING!!! Yes I used capital letters. I would bet if you all stopped taking the bait of those you find offensive you will have a much happier time here as well whomever you are offended by will likely eventually stop.

Lastly if someone who is out of the loop chooses to join in and take the side of the offender let's leave it be, how do we know they are not a good personal real life friend of someone hmmmmmm? We just don't know and it's seeming disrespectful.

Bill we lost more than Gordon whats his name over group bashing and trashing. It's time to let these past incidents go. Holding grudges is making for a mucky garden.

I, sometimes, see myself as one of the just sit quietly type of people. My real life persona is the one who choses to be the peacekeeper, or to not make waves. I often will find myself not saying anything at all, rather than saying something that would muddy the waters or make waves.



Quoting minks here: >>Let's stop dragging people through the mud. It's clear who dislikes who, it's gone fairly public and I think maybe folks should :

~Fight their battles in private amongst themselves and stop making it a public hanging ground,

~Stop bringing forward past issues, just to bash more,

~STOP RISING TO THE BATING!!! Yes I used capital letters. I would bet if you all stopped taking the bait of those you find offensive you will have a much happier time here as well whomever you are offended by will likely eventually stop.

Not to mention what Newbies must think.

Just like in real life

The Garden grows all kinds of personalities

But it never hurts to try to be a better person :-6

Marie and Minks... I'll try again a little bit more. Because I think it's really

important.



PM's don't work, and not only because if the person has you on ignore

they'll never see them. Minks, I really DO worry about newbies. But I

also worry about newbies who see a post wherein the person calls

another one ignorant and says they're going to have another nervous

breakdown in a couple of days. If no one posts anything in that thread,

what is that newbie to think?



Minks in another thread I praised you for a post. I did it publicly, without

thought to whatever repercussions there might be for me. I didn't save

THAT for a pm, although I easily could have. I do try to be fair.



You can't be polite with the person in question. It's been proven time

again that it doesn't work. Letting that person get away with stuff is

just condoning it, it really is.



I was going to post links to other things I've posted, but decided

against it. But I will ask you guys again, have you EVER tried some

"sanctions" on your own with someone you consider a friend? I

have, I can't reveal pm's of course, but I've also done some publicly

and Minx I know for sure you've seen at least a couple of those.



There's really not much available to me to do. About all I have is

posting my feelings, and trying to make people put theirselves in

another's shoes. Pen is mightier than the sword, as it were.



I cringe when I think of the times I told this person I respected and

admired him. But I did, then. Until he turned on ME. Until I figured

out what he was. Heaven forbid he ever turns on one of you but

if he does, you will have at least some small idea of what many of the

rest of us have been through.

Oh Valerie I am not being critical here, I just know that some of my thoughts above work. To each their own really. It's not me trying to save the world here... just thoughts.

Forgive me.

Maybe we need to post everyone of this persons lies (and there are many even the one that broke the camels back .- it is still being peddled at another forum) Maybe then the people that really dont know whats going on would have the opportunity to see for themselves - the mere fact that this person still comes here when they know they are not wanted only shows just how arrogant they really are . Why would anyone continue going somewhere they are not wanted - to antagonise and for no other reason .

Val that's good. Tha'ts very good. This is not a simple case of 2 normal, adult people having a "disagreement", this is a case of one person taking it upon themself to verbally attack, without provocation, someone else. To ride them, and insult them, and to have nothing more in their thoughts than to make the person feel bad. A sole mission: to stir sh!t up. To take a PERCEIVED weakness and exploit it for their own sick amusement. If it had been a simple disagreement, I suspect things would have gone very differently.

pantsonfire321@aol.com wrote: Maybe we need to post everyone of this persons lies (and there are many even the one that broke the camels back .- it is still being peddled at another forum) Maybe then the people that really dont know whats going on would have the opportunity to see for themselves - the mere fact that this person still comes here when they know they are not wanted only shows just how arrogant they really are . Why would anyone continue going somewhere they are not wanted - to antagonise and for no other reason .


No No I don't think so, I am sure enough has been posted maybe it should just be let to die. This is typed as unbiased as possible I am not taking sides. I am sure anyone who knows what you are going on about is aware enough and can make their own judgements. And as for newbies, they really don't need it tossed in their faces. Either they will get it, or they won't care to delve into it. Surely it's gone on long enough now and if it's being tossed around in another site then that is their issue as well isn't it. Let people seek the truth on their own, let them make their own minds up, enough has been put out for us to see and decide upon.

Perhaps, in a show of good faith from all sides, this can be the *very last* post in this thread?

keep reporting the offender then....put them on ignore, yes it's the shits to be the object of a persons attacks but somehow someway I think it's got to stop and for those of you being attacked maybe it is up to you to just not respond and let it die a slow peaceful death. Remember what comes around goes around. Perhaps in time....

cherandbuster wrote: Perhaps, in a show of good faith from all sides, this can be the *very last* post in this thread?


sowwy we posted together I am with ya cher. over and out.

pantsonfire321@aol.com wrote: Maybe we need to post everyone of this persons lies (and there are many even the one that broke the camels back .- it is still being peddled at another forum) Maybe then the people that really dont know whats going on would have the opportunity to see for themselves - the mere fact that this person still comes here when they know they are not wanted only shows just how arrogant they really are . Why would anyone continue going somewhere they are not wanted - to antagonise and for no other reason .


If you really want to beat down this road, then may I suggest you start a thread specifically for this purpose. Any threads posted by the provocateur can be copied into this thread for the purpose of display and debate.

Those that don't want to get involved will know that they should avoid this thread. Although, there is a danger that the thread will end up in the Tar Pit, but that wouldn't be anything new lately.

pantsonfire321@aol.com wrote: Maybe we need to post everyone of this persons lies (and there are many even the one that broke the camels back .- it is still being peddled at another forum) Maybe then the people that really dont know whats going on would have the opportunity to see for themselves - the mere fact that this person still comes here when they know they are not wanted only shows just how arrogant they really are . Why would anyone continue going somewhere they are not wanted - to antagonise and for no other reason .


IMO enough has been said on this subject. I'm not in favour of 'picking scabs' and I'm with Minks on this.

Bez wrote: IMO enough has been said on this subject. I'm not in favour of 'picking scabs' and I'm with Minks on this.


Hi, Bez. How are you bearing up under all this heat? Have you seen any rain yet?