The problem with magic? etc.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:07 pm

Well, I have chosen to be atheist for now. Mainly I dont want my parent's religon to effect my own. So, I will choose a religon once I have moved out.

But, I need a perspective on the issue: why does Christianity frown agaist magic, wicca, rituals etc. I mean, catholics do the same thing with the blood and flesh of christ right?

I mean, many people believe that magic and rituals can help people, so shouldn't helping people be encouraged? My aunt is a pagan, not saying that its a good or bad thing, but she really believes that chanting, spells etc. can help with illness, stress, etc. I just think this sort of thinking should be encouraged, it can be quite powering.

Also, how does Harry Potter teach satanic beliefs? its a book, and the hero defeats evil.

I don't want to offend anyone, and sorry if I have. I am just one of those people who want to know what others are thinking. ^^: just wondering.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:13 pm

There are so many threads here about the differences in religion. We have a resident Scientologist, as well as Catholics, Protestants, Methodist, Baptists and even a couple of fundamentalists. Im sure you will find every answer to every question you could possible imagine. We might have one Wiccan, or something close to that if Im not mistaken.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:14 pm

DesignerGal wrote: There are so many threads here about the differences in religion. We have a resident Scientologist, as well as Catholics, Protestants, Methodist, Baptists and even a couple of fundamentalists. Im sure you will find every answer to every question you could possible imagine. We might have one Wiccan, or something close to that if Im not mistaken.

I'll go read some. thanks. ^^; your very helpfull

thanks for the advice earlier as well. :-6

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:16 pm

Pinky wrote: I've been a pagan for the best part of ten years, and yes, it is very empowering, and teaches good ethics and morals through personal experience.

Most organised religions don't like this kind of thing, as it goes against their way of trying to convert people to the 'one' true path..which one is the true one? You can only decide that for yourself.

As for Harry Potter being satanic - again, pagans don't believe in the devil, as he is purely christian in origin.

We do have a god of nature, who has animal attributes such as horns and furry legs, but this is to show or personify the masculine principle's link with the natural world. Sadly, he was 'turned' into the image of satan when christianity came along.

wow. thats pretty cool. I have always believed in something more than just meets the eye. Do you have any good reads on your religon? I'd like to look into it.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:26 pm

Jimmeh wrote: Well, I have chosen to be atheist for now. Mainly I dont want my parent's religon to effect my own. So, I will choose a religon once I have moved out.

But, I need a perspective on the issue: why does Christianity frown agaist magic, wicca, rituals etc. I mean, catholics do the same thing with the blood and flesh of christ right?

I mean, many people believe that magic and rituals can help people, so shouldn't helping people be encouraged? My aunt is a pagan, not saying that its a good or bad thing, but she really believes that chanting, spells etc. can help with illness, stress, etc. I just think this sort of thinking should be encouraged, it can be quite powering.

Also, how does Harry Potter teach satanic beliefs? its a book, and the hero defeats evil.

I don't want to offend anyone, and sorry if I have. I am just one of those people who want to know what others are thinking. ^^: just wondering.

No Jim, the belief systems are different. Christianity "frowns" against magic, wicca, etc being forms of religion not based on the Bible. Catholics and the ritual of Holy Communion is something remembered in the Bible, and told to believers to particpate in.

Harry Potter-it is a novel. But most evangelical Christians do not let their children read it, because it does promote wizards, magic, etc. It goes against their belief system.

As for the other, I will let those more experienced to comment.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:28 pm

Jimmeh wrote: Well, I have chosen to be atheist for now. Mainly I dont want my parent's religon to effect my own. So, I will choose a religon once I have moved out.

But, I need a perspective on the issue: why does Christianity frown agaist magic, wicca, rituals etc. I mean, catholics do the same thing with the blood and flesh of christ right?

I mean, many people believe that magic and rituals can help people, so shouldn't helping people be encouraged? My aunt is a pagan, not saying that its a good or bad thing, but she really believes that chanting, spells etc. can help with illness, stress, etc. I just think this sort of thinking should be encouraged, it can be quite powering.

Also, how does Harry Potter teach satanic beliefs? its a book, and the hero defeats evil.

I don't want to offend anyone, and sorry if I have. I am just one of those people who want to know what others are thinking. ^^: just wondering.

You might like to take a look at Buddhism. There are millions of Buddhists in the US.

http://www.sgi-usa.org/thesgiusa/

http://www.sgi-usa.org/cgi-bin/locator. ... TE=Florida

Welcome to FG by the way :-6

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:31 pm

chonsigirl wrote: No Jim, the belief systems are different. Christianity "frowns" against magic, wicca, etc being forms of religion not based on the Bible. Catholics and the ritual of Holy Communion is something remembered in the Bible, and told to believers to particpate in.

Harry Potter-it is a novel. But most evangelical Christians do not let their children read it, because it does promote wizards, magic, etc. It goes against their belief system.

As for the other, I will let those more experienced to comment.

I see, so the bible is seen as the truth. Now, let me ask you or someone else:

Does each person interpret the bible individually? Or does a pastor do it? I mean anything could be interpretted into something entirely different, such as Hitler's excuses.

Again, I dont mean to offend, I just like to learn about different theories/relgions. And I thought of this question while watching charmed nonetheless.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:33 pm

Pinky wrote: I sure do! 'Wicca' by Scott Cunningham is a good book as a starter, so is 'Hedgewitch' by Rae Beth.

Anything by Marian Green is worth a read too. These are all good for getting to grips with the basics, and the ethics of it. I'd have a go at some of the things outlined in any of these before trying any complicated practical stuff.

I will look into the local library, or bother amazon again. Amazon they must love me, I am sure I keep them in buisness.

Bez wrote: You might like to take a look at Buddhism. There are millions of Buddhists in the US.

Welcome to FG by the way :-6

Buddhism has always been one of my favorite religons to study, their meditation process is really intreging. ^_^ thanks I'll check those sites out.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:34 pm

Jimmeh

You seem like such a bright young man!

I wanted to tell you that because you don't get to hear it at home.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:35 pm

cherandbuster wrote: Jimmeh

You seem like such a bright young man!

I wanted to tell you that because you don't get to hear it at home.

awh. thats so nice. ^^; and thank you.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:36 pm

Jimmeh wrote: I see, so the bible is seen as the truth. Now, let me ask you or someone else:

Does each person interpret the bible individually? Or does a pastor do it? I mean anything could be interpretted into something entirely different, such as Hitler's excuses.

Again, I dont mean to offend, I just like to learn about different theories/relgions. And I thought of this question while watching charmed nonetheless.
Everyone should read the Bible for themselves, Jim. Also, the first line is your own statement, I did not say that in my post.

No, Hitler had nothing to do with the Bible, or he would not have murdered people, which is against the Ten Commandments.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:36 pm

Pinky wrote: Nice one Bez!

I agree, Buddism is a lovely way to live.:-4

I've found the group meetings really supportive and

everythings so informal, although very disciplined as you would expect from an organisation with headquarters in Japan.

:-6 :-6

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:39 pm

chonsigirl wrote: Everyone should read the Bible for themselves, Jim. Also, the first line is your own statement, I did not say that in my post.

No, Hitler had nothing to do with the Bible, or he would not have murdered people, which is against the Ten Commandments.

Yes, I heard that hitler thought that is how god wanted it.

And about my first line about being atheist, it isnt what you think. My mother is a huge hiporcrit, and is always saying how Catholic teachings are the only way to heaven, and I think that most people are only their religon because there parents were that religon, so I want to find my own way.

thanks for the perspective. ^^:

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:40 pm

Jimmeh wrote: I will look into the local library, or bother amazon again. Amazon they must love me, I am sure I keep them in buisness.

Buddhism has always been one of my favorite religons to study, their meditation process is really intreging. ^_^ thanks I'll check those sites out.

Jim....we don't meditate in the SGI, we chant...

Mind you some people might meditate as well but not as part of the practise.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:40 pm

Bez wrote: I've found the group meetings really supportive and

everythings so informal, although very disciplined as you would expect from an organisation with headquarters in Japan.

:-6 :-6

Japanese religon is also quite fascinating such as Taoism and its connections to Buddhism.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:41 pm

Jimmeh wrote: I think that most people are only their religon because there parents were that religon, so I want to find my own way.

JMan (my nickname for you)

I've often thought the same thing

GOOD FOR YOU for trying to choose your own path in life

What a mature way to think :-6

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:41 pm

Bez wrote: Jim....we don't meditate in the SGI, we chant...

Mind you some people might meditate as well but not as part of the practise.

No, I meant the process of enlignment, according to my history teacher anyway.

I didnt mean actually meditating but the path to knowledge, sounds pretty cool.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:42 pm

cherandbuster wrote: JMan (my nickname for you)

I've often thought the same thing

GOOD FOR YOU for trying to choose your own path in life

What a mature way to think :-6

he he. that nickname is awesome. :-6

Yes, I try to find my own way in life, without people pressuring me into thing.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:43 pm

JMan :-6

If this is what you are like as a product of your household

Just think of all you could become! :-4

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:43 pm

Pinky wrote: I agree...you should always make these decisions for yourself, as only you know your own truth inside.

I think it should be encouraged as a whole, espically in school. So many people are always telling you to be catholic or christian at my school, sometimes it doesn't fit the wants or needs of an individual.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:44 pm

cherandbuster wrote: JMan :-6

If this is what you are like as a product of your household

Just think of all you could become! :-4

he he. thanks. you are so nice, but I blame the books. D=< always teaching me stuff. ^^

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:47 pm

The problem with some organized religion is that you can twist and turn the Bible to say anything you want.

Im a Southern Baptist by birth but married an Episcopalian (Catholic Lite) and now we go to the Methodist Church. I believe in being good and believing in God and always trying to do the right thing by people. But Im only human and I make mistakes. The biggest problem I have with religions are the ones that arent tolerant of people different than them. Thats why I like the Methodist church here, the motto is: Open Doors, Open Minds, Open Hearts...

just my two cents on the matter of religion.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:49 pm

Pinky wrote: I work in a school, and I wouldn't dream of doing that to any kid!

Our school has loads of cultures and religions though, so it's finally becoming quite openminded!:-6

Lucky you. ^^; we need more people like you in our school.

DesignerGal wrote: The problem with some organized religion is that you can twist and turn the Bible to say anything you want.

Im a Southern Baptist by birth but married an Episcopalian (Catholic Lite) and now we go to the Methodist Church. I believe in being good and believing in God and always trying to do the right thing by people. But Im only human and I make mistakes. The biggest problem I have with religions are the ones that arent tolerant of people different than them. Thats why I like the Methodist church here, the motto is: Open Doors, Open Minds, Open Hearts...

just my two cents on the matter of religion.

hmm, I see. The bible can be malleable in that way, and I feel its up to the person reading it to desifer it themselves, rather than making a religon of it.

but thats just me.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:52 pm

Oh and Im not a Catholic because IM on LOADS of fertility drugs right now and going in for an IUI cycle next week. And the Catholic church tends to frown on that just a little!:D

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:54 pm

DesignerGal wrote: Oh and Im not a Catholic because IM on LOADS of fertility drugs right now and going in for an IUI cycle next week. And the Catholic church tends to frown on that just a little!:D

he he. see, its that kind of stuff thats really odd about the catholic religon.

such little stuff can get you a one way ticket to hell.

Slade1 · Post by **Slade1** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:57 pm

Hi Jimmeh (Is that like Timmeh?)

I just wanted to say that if you want to find something to believe in then good for you, but belief should not be mandatory. I personally believe that there are forces at work in the universe that we could never comprehend, let alone write it down in a book. I think of myself as an agnostic, my feeling is that if you subscribe to one religion and one denomination, you are closing your mind somewhat.

No offence to anyone, but I see a lot of religions as a convenience, there is no uncertainty in your life if you believe that at the end of it you will be going to meet your God.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:09 pm

Slade1 wrote: Hi Jimmeh (Is that like Timmeh?)

I just wanted to say that if you want to find something to believe in then good for you, but belief should not be mandatory. I personally believe that there are forces at work in the universe that we could never comprehend, let alone write it down in a book. I think of myself as an agnostic, my feeling is that if you subscribe to one religion and one denomination, you are closing your mind somewhat.

No offence to anyone, but I see a lot of religions as a convenience, there is no uncertainty in your life if you believe that at the end of it you will be going to meet your God.

that is very true who are we as humans to not ask questions about a religon?

and yes. like timmeh. ^_^

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:55 am

Does each person interpret the bible individually? Or does a pastor do it? I mean anything could be interpretted into something entirely different, such as Hitler's excuses.

I have been going to church all my life. I've been in several different Protestant denominations and go to a non-denominational church now. By most people's definition it would probably be considered an evangelical, fundamentalist church and I would be considered a fascist, Nazi, Taliban, fundamentalist (well, I've been called that at least. See intolerance is everywhere). I have always been free to interpret the Bible as an individual. I have doctrinal differences with every church I've attended and every pastor I've had. I've had a lot of fun, interesting discussions with my friends and fellow church members about theology, but I've never been "condemned" because of a disagreement. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Does that mean that I understand or interpret everything correctly? No, but that's why I'm on this life journey.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:08 am

Adam Zapple wrote: I have been going to church all my life. I've been in several different Protestant denominations and go to a non-denominational church now. By most people's definition it would probably be considered an evangelical, fundamentalist church and I would be considered a fascist, Nazi, Taliban, fundamentalist (well, I've been called that at least. See intolerance is everywhere). I have always been free to interpret the Bible as an individual. I have doctrinal differences with every church I've attended and every pastor I've had. I've had a lot of fun, interesting discussions with my friends and fellow church members about theology, but I've never been "condemned" because of a disagreement. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. Does that mean that I understand or interpret everything correctly? No, but that's why I'm on this life journey.

Thats a great way to put it, actually. Well said.

Bronwen · Post by **Bronwen** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:31 am

Jimmeh wrote: 1. But, I need a perspective on the issue: why does Christianity frown agaist magic, wicca, rituals etc. I mean, catholics do the same thing with the blood and flesh of christ right?

I don't want to offend anyone, and sorry if I have.1. wrong.

2. No offense taken.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:10 pm

Jim:-6

Rituals can be of great help in aiding one to focus ones mind on something. They can also be comforting and stimulate peace within oneself.

Some churches don't have rituals as such but they arf missing out on the benefits of such practices.

Some rituals can be harmful and care must be taken in their usage. The good ones are meant to be positive in your life and not meant to be a form of brainwashing.

Personally I prefer the rituals of the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches. Both reflect the great traditions of Christianity.

Shalom

Ted:-6

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:48 pm

JMan~~(cher comes up with the best nicknames, doesn't she?)

Trying to find answers to this sort of thing can take years. Figuring out what you believe and where you fit is a very long process, usually. So, just to add one more person's views to the mix, here's what I think:

I've always said a person's walk with God is a personal one. I was brought up a certain religion and baptized in that church. As I grew up, my views on things changed, as yours will. You will develop new ways of looking at things and the people in your world. You may find that there is NO religion that suits you, as is the case with me. To me, organized religion is a scam, a way to control people and a way to take their money. This is only my opinion, and for those who subscribe to a specific religion and find it helpful to them, I say, more power to them. However, it is possible to worship, and have a close connection with God and never set foot in any church. I talk to God all the time. I pray, I ask questions, I ask for strength, and faith. Sometimes I am answered, sometimes I am not, but regardless, I have a relationship with my God, but have foregone the whole going to church thing. Take your time. Look into everything that interests you, as this isn't a decision to be made lightly. You sound like a very intelligent, thoughtful young man, and you may just find that an actual church is something you don't want or need. Your views and such will change dramatically over the next years, probably more than once as you learn about the world around you. There is no hurry to jump into any specific religion, as long as you're already walking with God.

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:39 pm

Ted wrote: Jim:-6

Rituals can be of great help in aiding one to focus ones mind on something. They can also be comforting and stimulate peace within oneself.

Some churches does have rituals as such but they arfe missing out on the benefits of such practices.

Some rituals can be harmful and care must be taken in their usage. The good ones are meant to be positive in your life and not meant to be a form of brainwashing.

Personally I prefer the rituals of the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches. Both reflect the great traditions of Christianity.

Shalom

Ted:-6

wow. thats very cool. ^^ thanks

BabyRider wrote: JMan~~(cher comes up with the best nicknames, doesn't she?)

Trying to find answers to this sort of thing can take years. Figuring out what you believe and where you fit is a very long process, usually. So, just to add one more person's views to the mix, here's what I think:

I've always said a person's walk with God is a personal one. I was brought up a certain religion and baptized in that church. As I grew up, my views on things changed, as yours will. You will develop new ways of looking at things and the people in your world. You may find that there is NO religion that suits you, as is the case with me. To me, organized religion is a scam, a way to control people and a way to take their money. This is only my opinion, and for those who subscribe to a specific religion and find it helpful to them, I say, more power to them. However, it is possible to worship, and have a close connection with God and never set foot in any church. I talk to God all the time. I pray, I ask questions, I ask for strength, and faith. Sometimes I am answered, sometimes I am not, but regardless, I have a relationship with my God, but have foregone the whole going to church thing. Take your time. Look into everything that interests you, as this isn't a decision to be made lightly. You sound like a very intelligent, thoughtful young man, and you may just find that an actual church is something you don't want or need. Your views and such will change dramatically over the next years, probably more than once as you learn about the world around you. There is no hurry to jump into any specific religion, as long as you're already walking with God.

thank you, and I will try and keep going my own way. Though, I must say its hard, many friends of mine are wicaan and breathe down my necks about it (nothing to harsh). But I always pick up a book they ask me too. thanks again, and I will discover my own way. :-6

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:26 am

Jimmeh wrote: thanks again, and I will discover my own way. :-6

JMan

We like the way you think

Keep learning

Always :-6

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:54 pm

oh its nothing bad, just usually giving me a book or two. =D

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:57 pm

oh, I am way comfortable with it. I do love reading. I would have more books/look into it more, but my mom has problems with it.

My aunt was pagan, and she was cast out of the family. Sad really, she is a nice lady. And made good cookies. =DD

Jimmeh · Post by **Jimmeh** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:39 pm

Pinky wrote: Oh, that's so sad!!!

I would never abandon someone I love because they have different beliefs to me. I'm pretty lucky with my family, they're all quite open-minded..they don't mind what you are as long as you're happy!

lucky you. I miss them cookies. :-6

but yea, at least she is happy though. =DD

I am glad she is doing what she likes.

Felinessa · Post by **Felinessa** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:41 pm

J-Man,

A good place to start learning about different religions would be an Encyclopaedia of Religion or a scholarly survey type of book. These books aren't written by priests, but by religious scholars, who are actually historians. They will provide you with a concise introduction to the system of beliefs, a history, a description of the moral/ethical system, of the rituals, etc. What I like about them is that they maintain an objective, impassionate attitude, as they mean to inform, rather than to convert.

The second step would be to study the sacred texts of a number of religions, since they uphold philosophical worldviews stemming from that particular belief. Of course, none of us can say s/he fully understands these texts, since they are often metaphorical and draw on the conventions of ancient cultures. To understand even small parts would require long years of study. But all of us can understand the gist, and you can see which one appeals to you the most.

I also think that a good dose of questioning and skepticism is healthy with every belief system. I was born Eastern Orthodox and I chose to stay as such after taking religion classes in university and graduate school and doing some of my own probing. Some of the things which I appreciate about Orthodoxy are the acceptance of science as compatible with faith, the metaphorical understanding of the Bible, the recognition of Christ in all those around us (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, ministering to the sick and imprisoned, and treating all with kindness), and, not least, the lack of proselytism (joining the Church is a moderately long process, including catechesis, and should be done voluntarily; we believe people should come to the Church, rather than being called to it) . While we don't believe that all ways lead to God, we don't think that Buddhism, for example, is the work of the devil. On the contrary, there have been scholarly works on Buddhism and Orthodoxy, and we recognize that something which also invites mindfullness, meditation, and charity cannot be evil. The same applies to other faiths: they are not evil and they often encourage the same kind of ethics and conduct that Christianity does, but we do not see them as complete. To each, his own.

You also asked about how Christians view the Bible. There is not a universally true answer to this question. Some denominations believe it is metaphorical and needs to be decoded in order to extract the true meaning. Others take it at face-value and believe it should be read literally.

Most denominations have produced theologians who wrote extensive interpretations (or exegeses) of Biblical books and fragments. Depending on the scholar's authority, some of these interpretations are widely accepted. Others may be accepted only by select denominations. Priests are trained into a particular denomination and will generally align their interpretations with the tradition, although, if they are doctors of theology, they are expected to also produce original work. Many Christians prefer to read, research, and interpret on their own as well, while others will accept the dogma of their denomination. Also, some matters have been open to debate for thousands of years (the problem of evil, for ex), while others are crystallized into a solid interpretation (the Roman Catholic Church has a Catechism; the Eastern Orthodox does not, formally, and allows for the possibility of revision, although revisions are rare and are only agreed on at very high levels in the Church).

Lastly, the matter of the Eucharist or the Holy Communion. Since it is, simultaneously, a real, a symbolical, and a mystical act, it is very difficult to explain, but I found a decent explanation online and I will post it below (written by an Orthodox theologian; the interpretation may differ in other denominations).

As a word, the term eucharist means thanksgiving. This name is given to the sacred meal-not only to the elements of bread and wine, but to the whole act of gathering, praying, reading the Holy Scriptures and proclaiming God's Word, remembering Christ and eating and drinking his Body and Blood in communion with him and with God the Father, by the Holy Spirit. The word eucharist is used because the all-embracing meaning of the Lord's Banquet is that of thanksgiving to God in Christ and the Holy Spirit for all that he has done in making, saving and glorifying the world.

[...]

The sacrament of the eucharist is also called holy communion since it is the mystical communion of men with God, with each other, and with all men and all things in him through Christ and the Spirit.

[...]

In the history of Christian thought, various ways were developed to try to explain how the bread and the wine become the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharistic liturgy. Quite unfortunately, these explanations often became too rationalistic and too closely connected with certain human philosophies.

One of the most unfortunate developments took place when men began to debate the reality of Christ's Body and Blood in the eucharist. While some said that the eucharistic gifts of bread and wine were the real Body and Blood of Christ, others said that the gifts were not real, but merely the symbolic or mystical presence of the Body and Blood. The tragedy in both of these approaches is that what is real came to be opposed to what is symbolic or mystical.

The Orthodox Church denies the doctrine that the Body and the Blood of the eucharist are merely intellectual or psychological symbols of Christ's Body and Blood. If this doctrine were true, when the liturgy is celebrated and holy communion is given, the people would be called merely to think about Jesus and to commune with him "in their hearts." In this way, the eucharist would be reduced to a simple memorial meal of the Lord's last supper, and the union with God through its reception would come only on the level of thought or psychological recollection.

On the other hand, however, the Orthodox tradition does use the term "symbols" for the eucharistic gifts. It calls, the service a "mystery" and the sacrifice of the liturgy a "spiritual and bloodless sacrifice." These terms are used by the holy fathers and the liturgy itself.

The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality -- the world and man himself -- is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God's true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself "the bread of life" (Jn 6:34, 41).

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6:51).

Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ's flesh, and Christ's flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word "symbolical" in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: "to bring together into one."

by Fr. Thomas Hopko, Dean Emeritus of St. Vladimir's Seminary

I'd also like to point out the difference between the Eucharist and the act of, say, sacrificing a bull to Jupiter. In the Roman sacrifice, the priest (entity 1) sacrificed the animal (entity 2) to the god (entity 3). The Christian sacrifice commemorated by the Eucharist involves Christ at all levels: He is the priest offering the sacrifice (entity 1), the sacrifice (entity 2), and the God receiving the sacrifice (entity 3). The believers are simply partaking in this, and therefore are not committing a barbaric act of human sacrifice to a blood-thirsty God.

Hope this helped. Best of luck in finding your path, whichever one you decide on.

Gaia · Post by **Gaia** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:47 am

[QUOTE=chonsigirl]No Jim, the belief systems are different. Christianity "frowns" against magic, wicca, etc being forms of religion not based on the Bible. Catholics and the ritual of Holy Communion is something remembered in the Bible, and told to believers to particpate in.

GAIA:

Hello to both Jim and Chonsigirl --

Jim, you asked a very insightful and important question.

Chonsigirl, in fact magick and witchcraft certainly ARE "forms of religion based in the Bible" -- perhaps you're just not used to thinking of them as such, because you've seldom heard them discussed that way, in Christian circles.

It's true that in some places, the Bible does have some negative statements about witchcraft -- but at least one of the most famous of those was a grievous MIStranslation.

In Exodus 22:19, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live," --

In fact, There is NO word in Hebrew for witch, although there is one for sorceress, which is NOT the one used. In fact, the actual Hebrew word translates to English as poisoner -- it should read, "Thou shalt not suffer a POISONER to live."

It might be significant to consider that King James, who commissioned the King James Bible, was known to be a rabid witch hater and insisted that his translators

give the word that mistranslation -- remember, they were *hired* by him, and he could exercise any authority over them he wished, since he was King).

However, the Bible has "neutral or positive references to a wide range of magical and divinatory practices."

(Joanne Kuemmerlin-McLean, "Magic: Old Testament," in David Freedman, ed., _The Anchor Bible Dictionary_, 6 vols, 4:469; also JOshua Trachtenberg, "Jewish Magic and Superstition: A Study in folk Religion" 19-20.)

Let's explore just a few examples:

- 1. King Solomon's Magick:

Before the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, Jewish tradition held that King Solomon's wisdom included his vast knowledge of magic and medicine. Throughout history, Solomon has been a fabled resource of magickal, occult knowledge and powers.

- 2. THE MAGICK POWER OF THE NAME (HaShem):

Innumerable people have believed and still do beleive in the magickal power of the Name -- that the true name of anything has power. It was on this basis that YHWH, (one of the sacred Names of God), known as the Tetragrammaton, (from which "Yahweh" and later "Jehovah" developed) was never spoken aloud by Jews; it was always replaced by the word, "Adonai" ("Lord") or "Elohim"

("leaders," "judges" or "Gods" -- PLURAL) throughout the Old Testament.

Because God's name was unutterable among Hebrews, they invested it with enomous power. "Magic by means of the use of the Holy Name was actually sanctioned, and the results that were sought by it differed little if at all from the objects of heathen magic."

(Alafred Guillaume "Prophecy and Divination Among The Hebrews and Other Semites" 269; Hyrum P Jones, "Magic and the Old Testament," MS thesis, BYU 1933, 42; Gershom Sholem, "Kabbalah," in Roth, _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ 10:494, 503)

Jewish and Christian lore contains many references to occult incantations, amulets, charms, spells, exoercisms, etc.

- 3. Patriarch Jacob and His Magick Rods:

In Genesis 30:37-39 The Bible indicates that the patriarch Jacob (grandson of Abraham, aka "Israel", father of the twelve sons and therefore twelve tribes of Israel) was interested in names of power and in magic rods.

Jacob used magick rods to cause [his father-in-law] Laban's flocks to produce spotted offspring after merely looking at the rods. The scriptures do not indicate whether Jacob received divine instruction or authorization to use this method of FOLK MAGIC, which was widespread throughout the ancient Middle East as one way to produce desired offspring.

(John McClintock and James Strong, ed., _Cyclopaedia of biblical

Theology and Ecclesiastical Literature_ 12 vols, 2:836)

- 5. Joseph's Divining Cup:

While the Old Testament condemns the use of divination by Pagans, According to Genesis 44:2,5 Joseph (son of Jacob, whose prophetic interpretation of Pharoah's dreams saved Egypt and its allies from famine and who therefore became the highest Egyptian authority under Pharoah) had a special silver cup in Egypt with which "he divineth."

"Divination by cups has been from time immemorial prevalent among the Asiatics." (Adam Clarke, _The Holy bible...With a Commentary and Critical Notes... 6 vols, footnote printed below Gen 44:15; often called "Clarke's Commentary")

"Instances of the use of cups of water and variants, can be found in magical traditions from all over the world...."

(Richard Cavendish, ed _Man, Myth & Magic: An Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Supernatural_, 24 vols, 18:2506)

Thus, without any biblical evidence of divine instruction or reproof, Joseph resorted to a tool of magic divination (hydromancy) that was in regular use among surrounding Pagans.

- 6. Casting Lots:

The God of Israel commanded his people to cast lots (Leviticus 16:8-10; , and the Hebrews chose priests and other temple workers (1Chron. 24:5, 25:8, 26:13), (and much later (Acts 2:24-26) the apostles of Jesus chose new apostles) -- by casting lots.

*Not* a vote by ballot, the biblical casting of lots was outwardly identical to sortilege/ divination practiced throughout the ancient world by Pagans who sought to know the will of their various gods."

(M'Clintock and Strong, _Cyclopaedia of Biblical Theology_, 5:519-20; Jones, _Magic and the Old Testament" 545; Jeffers, _Magic and Diviniation in Ancient Palestine and Syria_, 96-98)

- 7. "Judaising" Magic:

The _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ observed: "While repudiating the power of sorcery, biblical religion at times utilizes means and methods which were borrowed from magical practice --" but as Jewish scholar Jacob Neusner has noted: "Judaizing magic made it no less magical."

(Jacob Neusner, "The Wonder Working Lawyers of Talmudic Babylonia: The theory and practice of Judaism in its Formative Age")

- 8. Magical Healing:

Bible commentators have also generally acknowledged the magic context of instances where objects had power to heal. In Numbers 21:9 Moses constructs a brass serpent, and any Israelite bitten by deadly serpents was healed by looking upon this image.

The _Abingdon Bible Commentary_ noted that this "is but one illustration of a practice well known outside the Bible as well as within it, namely, making an image of a pest or affliction and presenting the image to the deity who, in turn, would banish the pest."

(Frederick Carl Eiselen, Ediwin Lewis, and DAvid Downey, ed. _The Abingdon bible Commentary_308-309; also Joseph Dan, "Magic," in Roth, _Encyclopaedia Judaica_ 11:705)

In 2 Kings 13:21, a corpse revived to mortal life when it came into contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha. The _Interpreter's Bible_ commented that such belief was "common among primitive people....." (Buttrick, _Interpreter's Bible_ 3:258)

- 9. St. Paul's Magic Handkerchiefs:

In one of the New Testament's best examples of magic healing, St Paul sent specially blessed handkerchiefs among the people to heal (Acts 19:12).

- 10. JESUS the Magician -- (The title of a book, btw)

Jesus himself was accused of being a magician by Celsus and Jewish rabbis. Porphyry, another Pagan writer, dismissed Jesus as "not even an extraordinary magician," and called the apostle Peter "a dabbler in the black arts." This was so well-known that medieval Passion plays emphasized acusations against "Christ the Sorcerer"."

(R H NIcholson, "The Trial of Christ the Sorcerer in the York

Cycle," _Journal of Medieval and Renaissance Studies_ 16:125-69)

"The belief, accusation or tradition that Jesus was a magician and that he passed magical power to his apostles and to the church as a whole, is thus found in Judaism, Gnosticism, Christian orthodoxy and heterodoxy, Paganism, Islam and Mandeanism."(Hohn Hull, _Hellenistic Magic and the Synoptic Tradition_ 4)

In many of the miracles of Jesus, the techniques closely parallelled magic practices of the ancient world. For example, like Egyptian magicians' use of "saliva magick", Jesus used spittle to heal (John 9:6) and used Aramaic words in an otherwise Greek text of healing words ( Mark 5:41). Pagan magicians used spittle to heal the blind, put their fingers in the ears to heal the deaf, employed the same series of seperate acts involved in some of the more detailed Gospel healings, and used foriegn words as part of magic spells and incantations.

(David Freidrich Strauss, "Thje Life of Jesus, Critically Examined," 2 vols, 2:299, 305)

Egyptologist Robert K Ritner has observed that Egyptian "saliva magic" was "given new justification by the miracles of Jesus." (Robert Ritner, "The Mechanics of Ancient Egyptian Magic Practice" 89, 91)

Christians used "objects, rites, words and formulas charged with divine potency to force demons to yield," all in accordance with well-known, contemporary rules of magic. Christians may claim this was not magic, but it certainly bore no real contrast to other forms of magick. Their discomfort identifying it as magick seems to have more to do with their dislike of the word "magick" than with any real difference in actual practice.

Conspiracy of Silence?

Historian David E Aune says that many authors "most of whom consider

themselves biblical theologians, write as if they were involved in a conspiracy to ignore or minimize the role of magic in the New Testament and early Christian literature.....

It may not seem appropriate to regard Jesus as a magician, yet Jesus DID make use of magical tecnniques which must be regarded as magical."

(David A Aune, "Magic in Early Christianity" 1508, 1539, 1538; also

E P Sanders, "Jesus and Judaism 169-173; see also _Jesus the

Magician_)

- 11. Christian Magick:

There have been throughout history, and continue to be -- Christian sects, Churches, groups that use various kinds of specifically and particularly CHRISTIAN magick --

"Christian magic is a tradition that employs deified Christian figures (Mary, the apostles, saints, and important figures) to allow a personal relationship with the Divine in the Roman Catholic Church and older Christian traditions. Additionally, it incorporates a number of other religionsÃ• themes, gods, and traditions into its own system. It may also utilize spells, incantations, amulets, rituals, and other occult practices to call upon divine forces for intervention in the affairs of the world. Christian magic has arguably been around as long as Christianity itself, and continues to be a part of some belief systems in the modern world."

For more information on some of these, please do a search on "Mystical" or "Gnostic Christianity" (sorry, i tried to make it easy by including links, but the system wouldn't allow me to do so).

- 12. Gifts of the Spirit:

Even what are scripturally referred to as the "Gifts of the Spirit" as listed in

[Mark 16:17-18 and 1 Corinthians 12-14 --

-- In other circles (pun intended) these are referred to as Psychic Gifts -- Yet some Christians insist on calling them evil.

The attitude of (some conservative or fundamentalist) Christians on the use of magick seems to be:

"If WE do it, it's holy; if YOU do it, it's evil" ! :wah:

This seems to be a corollary of the (questionable but) well-known religious truism:

"YOUR spiritual practices are called "Cult", while MINE are called "religion".

Blessings --

~Gaia

Felinessa · Post by **Felinessa** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:56 am

Excellent post, Gaia

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:57 pm

Felinessa/Gaia:-6 :-6

Both of them are excellent posts. What more can I say.

Shalom

Ted:-6