Hospitals 'face closure' over NHS cash crisis

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:42 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... w_14092006

Hospitals 'face closure' over NHS cash crisis

By Graeme Wilson, Political Correspondent

(Filed: 14/09/2006)

The full scale of the financial crisis in the health service is laid bare today by a report that identifies the 16 NHS trusts most at risk of closures and further job cuts.

The trusts involved run a total of 27 hospitals across England, from London and the Home Counties to the North East.

They have accumulated multi-million pound deficits and many have laid off staff and closed departments in an attempt to tackle the problem.

The list has been drawn up by the Liberal Democrats after a team of researchers spent several months analysing the financial health of more than 150 acute hospital trusts in England.

Their study discovered that one in 10 of the trusts were in such dire straits that they could be forced to close departments or whole hospitals when ministers start to squeeze funding next year.

Health spending is expected to rise by only about three per cent over the next three years, less than half the recent rate.

The report has emerged as David Nicholson, the new NHS chief executive, warned that there would be a wave of department closures in the next few years.

Steve Webb, the Liberal Democrat spokesman, said his party's report on the most vulnerable trusts underlined the scale of the NHS crisis. "The last nine years have seen money pumped into the NHS at a record rate, yet we are still seeing almost daily stories of closures and cutbacks in front-line services," he said.

"The worry for patients and the public has to be how the NHS will cope over the next three years when the money starts to dry up."

Among the trusts named in the report are the West Hertfordshire Hospitals NHS Trust, which runs St Albans City, Hemel Hempstead General and Watford General hospitals.

It has warned that its debts will reach Â£100 million by 2010 unless 500 posts are axed and services cut in both Hemel Hempstead and St Albans.

Ashford and St Peter's NHS Trust, in Middlesex, has a Â£7.5 million deficit and has called in a "turnaround director" to tackle its problems.

It aims to save Â£16 million in the next two years and has already replaced the accident and emergency unit at Ashford Hospital with a walk-in centre for minor injuries.

East and North Hertfordshire NHS Trust hopes to save Â£18 million by cutting 500 jobs and reviewing the number of beds at its hospitals.

Its Queen Elizabeth II Hospital in Welwyn Garden City has already lost its children's ward and will lose its A&E and maternity services.

Â© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:46 am

This is madness.

A couple of weeks ago they said they had so MUCH money they could afford to open 7 new hospitals!

What's going on?

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:47 am

I do believe it's all part of a ploy to privatise hospitals.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:59 am

Ohhhhhhhh, that wouldn't be good.

I've heard that in some hospitals in other countries they ask everyone visiting a paient to donate a pint of blood. I think they should also ask the family of every patient for a fiver - more if they can afford it!

A pint per visitor could be 4 or 5 pints per family and a fiver per family would be thousands of pounds of extra income per year.

I donate blood but was shocked to find that none of my in laws do - because they're afraid of the needle! :-5

But in hospital I think they'd feel obliged to do it and also in gratitude for helping a loved one.

If the government thought about compromising, they wouldn't have to take such drastic steps!

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:14 am

Rapunzel wrote: Ohhhhhhhh, that wouldn't be good.

I've heard that in some hospitals in other countries they ask everyone visiting a paient to donate a pint of blood. I think they should also ask the family of every patient for a fiver - more if they can afford it!

A pint per visitor could be 4 or 5 pints per family and a fiver per family would be thousands of pounds of extra income per year.

I donate blood but was shocked to find that none of my in laws do - because they're afraid of the needle! :-5

But in hospital I think they'd feel obliged to do it and also in gratitude for helping a loved one.

If the government thought about compromising, they wouldn't have to take such drastic steps!

There are a lot more cuts going on across the country that haven't been mentioned in the paper. An empire in serious decline. The lessons will never be learned, at our cost.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:31 am

Seeing as I work in a NHS hospital, let me fill you in on whats going on in our trust.

My NVQ courses have been cancelled. I think this is a nationwide government initiative.

They have frozen all hiring, and are not renewing any contracts that are due to expire.

Of the newly qualified 500+ students that just graduated, only a small fraction have secured employment.

A head of hospital in a neighboring trust has been arrested and is being investigated over a whole bunch of missing money.

My hospital has just closed 2 wards.

And they are NOT secondering ANYONE into the nursing program.

Budget has been frozen solid.

AND we have a massive big cardiac/thoracic hospital just being built right next door.

They have closed two entire hospitals.

And now they are advertising for new administrators.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:37 am

Raven wrote: Seeing as I work in a NHS hospital, let me fill you in on whats going on in our trust.

My NVQ courses have been cancelled. I think this is a nationwide government initiative.

They have frozen all hiring, and are not renewing any contracts that are due to expire.

Of the newly qualified 500+ students that just graduated, only a small fraction have secured employment.

A head of hospital in a neighboring trust has been arrested and is being investigated over a whole bunch of missing money.

My hospital has just closed 2 wards.

And they are NOT secondering ANYONE into the nursing program.

Budget has been frozen solid.

AND we have a massive big cardiac/thoracic hospital just being built right next door.

They have closed two entire hospitals.

And now they are advertising for new administrators.

The term 'absolute chaos' comes to mind. I don't suppose there's actually anyone who knows what is really going on. It's mental.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:06 pm

Hamster wrote: [quote=Rapunzel]I've heard that in some hospitals in other countries they ask everyone visiting a paient to donate a pint of blood. I think they should also ask the family of every patient for a fiver - more if they can afford it!

A pint per visitor could be 4 or 5 pints per family and a fiver per family would be thousands of pounds of extra income per year.

I donate blood but was shocked to find that none of my in laws do - because they're afraid of the needle! :-5

QUOTE]

I donated blood regularly until one time for no reason I passed out...

It frustrated me at the time because the doctor said it may happen again and they dont know why...

I am the only driver so I had to wait an hour and a half before I could drive myself home.

I think many people would donate more if it was more convenient...

That's very worrying, Hamster. Perhaps you just had low blood pressure at the time. Donating blood is normally good for you. It encourages the blood factory to work.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:52 am

Scrat wrote: I tried to donate blood once but they told me "We want blood, not coffee" and told me to leave.

:wah: scrat; you nut!!! very funny!!!!!!!!

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:19 am

Hamster wrote: Yeah I felt fine before donating that one..and I had eaten during the day. I have donated about 15 times altogether but I must admit to being a bit put off when I came round lying on a bed with a load of strangers round me.

They said I was still holding the drink in my hand when I passed out and it was the quick actions of one man to catch me otherwise I would have knocked my head on the table!!

Haven't been able to muster up the courage to do it since then...

If you can, it's always a good idea to take someone with you.

twizzel · Post by **twizzel** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:21 am

don't be surprised at the state of the nhs it is like the rest of government in turmoil because labour have no idea how to manage money.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:54 am

OpenMind wrote: The term 'absolute chaos' comes to mind. I don't suppose there's actually anyone who knows what is really going on. It's mental.

It feels very dire. Our morale is in the pits. My ward is being shuffled downstars and we just had a big meeting to find out where to put us all. With the ward next door closing they have to find a home for the permanent staff. It's not a good time for our place.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:37 pm

Raven wrote: It feels very dire. Our morale is in the pits. My ward is being shuffled downstars and we just had a big meeting to find out where to put us all. With the ward next door closing they have to find a home for the permanent staff. It's not a good time for our place.

Well, one thing's for sure. I've really got to pull my socks up over my own health.

Oh, I forgot to tell you. My own hospital is no longer treating me. That's something else I found out when I went to see the GP. They discharged me from treatment after I last went. Nice of them to let me know.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:37 pm

Aw man, I want socialized medicine too!

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:51 am

Adam Zapple wrote: Aw man, I want socialized medicine too!

Don't knock it too much. It may be flawed in tghe application but at least no one here worries about being unable to afford treatment.

Actually I don't know very much about the system in the US but it features`in every medical drama from the states at some point-the dilemma people face who can't pay. How accurate it is I don't know but I always wonder why americans are prepared to accept such iniquity.

woppy71 · Post by **woppy71** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:09 am

Here are just a few thoughts I have on the subject, I'm not pretending to understand the whole situation but perhaps the following might be an idea:

1. A no holds barred public enquiry into the NHS, it's systems, administration and operation. Lets get It all out in the open. No secrets.

2. Have a proper, water tight and closly monitored financial system put into place, that is the same across the whole organisation. Finantial records are released into the public domain at regular intervals.

3. An outside of the government agency to make regular audits into the operation of the NHS and government involvement in the NHS. Results to be released into the public domain.

Last of all, a question:

Obviously, all of this costs money. What proportion of people would be willing to pay more in taxes, in order to fund a state of the art NHS system, providing it was monitored and administered as above?

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:14 am

woppy71 wrote: Here are just a few thoughts I have on the subject, I'm not pretending to understand the whole situation but perhaps the following might be an idea:

1. A no holds barred public enquiry into the NHS, it's systems, administration and operation. Lets get It all out in the open. No secrets.

2. Have a proper, water tight and closly monitored financial system put into place, that is the same across the whole organisation. Finantial records are released into the public domain at regular intervals.

3. An outside of the government agency to make regular audits into the operation of the NHS and government involvement in the NHS. Results to be released into the public domain.

Last of all, a question:

Obviously, all of this costs money. What proportion of people would be willing to pay more in taxes, in order to fund a state of the art NHS system, providing it was monitored and administered as above?

I would have to give these points further thought before commenting. I feel though that radical changes need to be made especially in the light of the changes in our society since the NHS was first established.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:07 am

gmc wrote: Actually I don't know very much about the system in the US but it features`in every medical drama from the states at some point-the dilemma people face who can't pay. How accurate it is I don't know but I always wonder why americans are prepared to accept such iniquity.

Well their is Medicare, a federally funded program to help the elderly pay,and Medicaid, a federally funded program to help the poor pay for medical expenses. And I can't speak for all areas of the country but we have a hospital that requires payment based on ability to pay. In other words, if you can't pay you get free medical treatment. If you can only pay a little, they only charge you a little. We are not a huge city, so I suspect in most areas free medical care is available if you know where to go and get it. And there is no waiting list. If I am sick I call my physician and I can get in that very day.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:15 am

A friend from the zoo needed abdominal surgery for a tumor and had no private health insurance. She had the procedure done free, through the services of Los Angeles County. The system is horribly over-burdened, because we have so many illegals using the emergency room as a clinic and many trauma centers have closed. BUT...free care is available for people with very low incomes.

The problem of insurance companies trying to cut benefits is serious. But, as in the UK, you can get what you need, if you wait long enough.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:42 pm

woppy71 wrote: Here are just a few thoughts I have on the subject, I'm not pretending to understand the whole situation but perhaps the following might be an idea:

1. A no holds barred public enquiry into the NHS, it's systems, administration and operation. Lets get It all out in the open. No secrets.

2. Have a proper, water tight and closly monitored financial system put into place, that is the same across the whole organisation. Finantial records are released into the public domain at regular intervals.

3. An outside of the government agency to make regular audits into the operation of the NHS and government involvement in the NHS. Results to be released into the public domain.

Last of all, a question:

Obviously, all of this costs money. What proportion of people would be willing to pay more in taxes, in order to fund a state of the art NHS system, providing it was monitored and administered as above?

Most surveys suggest people would pay more in taxes but instead we get to pay more in taxes, more spent on the NHS but bureaucracy seems to eat it up. Classic goal displacement as meeting targets set by bureacracies becomes more important than providing good health care. Maybe expectations are too high but why shpouldn't they be high? Never mind Iraq I think it is going to be a major issue in the next election. Many who voted labour did not do so to have privatisation by the back door.

I live in Labour's heartland but I would not like to predict the way things would go if there was a viable alternative. I reckon if there were labour would be kicked in to touch.

It's one of the results of the flaws in the electoral system that in Scotland we got stuck with Maggie Thatcher despite overwhelming opposition to the Tories, now England has been stuck with a labour govt despite overwhelming opposition thanks to scottish MP's. Neither have had a majrity of the vote and shouldn't have been able to form a govt. IMO we badly need electoral reform

In Scotland we are not having foundation hospitals. In England you are getting them thanks to scottish MP's voting for a measure they does not affect their constients..

Same with some of the education reforms-scots MP's voting on things that don't affect them and that they know would cause outrage in scotland. I see the tories bring up the West lothian question nowadays, they have nothing to lose by doing so, labour keep quiet about it but I reckon it's about time the English started gettng annoyed and complained a bit more.

posted by Adam Zapple

Well their is Medicare, a federally funded program to help the elderly pay,and Medicaid, a federally funded program to help the poor pay for medical expenses. And I can't speak for all areas of the country but we have a hospital that requires payment based on ability to pay. In other words, if you can't pay you get free medical treatment. If you can only pay a little, they only charge you a little. We are not a huge city, so I suspect in most areas free medical care is available if you know where to go and get it. And there is no waiting list. If I am sick I call my physician and I can get in that very day.

Thanks, i've never been able to get a clear picture-in truth I'm not that interested in american domestic politics but watching grey's anatomy and that other mediacl drama who's name i can't remember don't exactly give an accurate picture. Quite abit different rom casualty et al, for one thing people keep getting shot.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:56 pm

IMO, the entire system of government needs overhauling. I get the impression that the electorate feel too distant from the process to have any real effect.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:01 pm

Hamster wrote: That would certainly be my feeling right now OM....

To make matters worse, Hammy. Labour works from the premise that we need to be told what we need and want. That essentially means they're not interested in listening to the electorate.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:15 am

OpenMind wrote: IMO, the entire system of government needs overhauling. I get the impression that the electorate feel too distant from the process to have any real effect.

I suspect a lot of people won't bother voting because they feel it won't make any difference. On the other hand i know a lot of die hard labourites that are for the first time thinking of voting for someone else especially if they are part of that much maligned "old Labour" school of thought to whom social justice was worth fighting for.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:19 am

That speech by Patricia Hewitt today, didnt reassure me of anything. If anything it made me question why she was made health secretary?

At least in america, the surgeon general is actually a doctor!

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:04 am

Bet the islamic guys who want to change foreign policy do!:-2 I would if I could.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:30 am

2 of Our locals hospitals, one of which has the A&E department are in danger of closing or being severely cut. The nearest alternative A&E is 20 miles....in an area of this size with a diverse popualtion of old , young, and being near 2 motorways, I can see lives being lost. There is a protest group which I joined.

The hospital at Worthing is only a few years old....it is scandalous....

http://www.kwash.org.uk/

This is just a rant....sorry....A freind of mine at work had to put her mother in a home due to Senile dementia....she was physically OK but would wander the streets and needed a secure place to live. They made her wear incontinence pads because they couldn't be bothered to take her to the toilet, her 'Liquids' chart was found on top of the wardrobe, she had bed sores on her heels although she was quite mobile. She was there 4 weeks...she died last weekend at the age of 76.

For 45 years I have paid national Insurance and taken very little OUT of the NHS System. I pay for my dental care and my prescriptions and am afraid to be hospitalised in case I catch some terrible disease. Luckily I am very healthy, but what of the future.....I shudder to think !

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:46 am

Oh honey! Thats absolutely TERRIBLE!

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:33 pm

This is just a rant....sorry....A freind of mine at work had to put her mother in a home due to Senile dementia....she was physically OK but would wander the streets and needed a secure place to live. They made her wear incontinence pads because they couldn't be bothered to take her to the toilet, her 'Liquids' chart was found on top of the wardrobe, she had bed sores on her heels although she was quite mobile. She was there 4 weeks...she died last weekend at the age of 76.

For 45 years I have paid national Insurance and taken very little OUT of the NHS System. I pay for my dental care and my prescriptions and am afraid to be hospitalised in case I catch some terrible disease. Luckily I am very healthy, but what of the future.....I shudder to think !

A little rant of mine ...sorry....is that I have just retired and finished paying off my mortgage and I finally own my house, but as far as the future goes, I have this to look forward too...

Should I need looking after in a nursing home, then the thieving Government will make me sell my house to pay for my care....even take me to court.!

Having worked all my life and paid my taxes etc into the system, they still want to bleed me dry until I die.

What a lovely future I have to look forward too......old, probably senile, alone and everything I have worked dam hard for all my life, being taken from me and placed into the system of "care for the elderly".

We (as a society) in the UK, treat the elderly like sh*t.

They are vunerable, fragile people with no real voice and the government treat them like second class citizens...B@st@rds

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:39 pm

[quote=Issie]Should I need a looking after in a nursing home, then the thieving Government will make me sell my house to pay for my care....even take me to court.!

I thought I saw a documentary recently that showed that was an illegal scam by the hospital authorities.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:54 pm

Issie wrote: A little rant of mine ...sorry....is that I have just retired and finished paying off my mortgage and I finally own my house, but as far as the future goes, I have this to look forward too...

Should I need a looking after in a nursing home, then the thieving Government will make me sell my house to pay for my care....even take me to court.!

Having worked all my life and paid my taxes etc into the system, they still want to bleed me dry until I die.

What a lovely future I have to look forward too......old, probably senile, alone and everything I have worked dam hard for all my life, being taken from me and placed into the system of "care for the elderly".

We (as a society) in the UK, treat the elderly like sh*t.

They are vunerable, fragile people with no real voice and the government treat them like second class citizens...B@st@rds

There is one way around that. If you ever need to go in a home, put it in a family members name first. Then they cant take it.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:55 pm

OpenMind wrote: [quote=Issie]Should I need a looking after in a nursing home, then the thieving Government will make me sell my house to pay for my care....even take me to court.!

I thought I saw a documentary recently that showed that was an illegal scam by the hospital authorities.
It is a common practice. You cant own real property and go on benefits. They have major loop holes to jump through.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:59 pm

Raven wrote: [quote=OpenMind]

It is a common practice. You cant own real property and go on benefits. They have major loop holes to jump through.

Gotcha. I understand now.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:01 pm

It's shameful.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:19 pm

Issie wrote: A little rant of mine ...sorry....is that I have just retired and finished paying off my mortgage and I finally own my house, but as far as the future goes, I have this to look forward too...

Should I need a looking after in a nursing home, then the thieving Government will make me sell my house to pay for my care....even take me to court.!

Having worked all my life and paid my taxes etc into the system, they still want to bleed me dry until I die.

What a lovely future I have to look forward too......old, probably senile, alone and everything I have worked dam hard for all my life, being taken from me and placed into the system of "care for the elderly".

We (as a society) in the UK, treat the elderly like sh*t.

They are vunerable, fragile people with no real voice and the government treat them like second class citizens...B@st@rds

Hi Issie

I am due to retire in October. My state pension will be Â£110 per week. I have private pension that the company I work for and myself have paid into for quite a while. I am due to see the company pension advisor next week and will then know what extra income I will get. I am only guessing that the amount will just about match the state pension. I have just separated from my husband and we split the proceeds of the sale of the house (not enough for me to buy another property) but I am renting at the moment....Â£110 per week.

I am looking to buy using an 'over 60s mortgage ' after Christmas....rather spend Â£100 per week on a mortgage than give to a landlord.

As for the rest...I am in the same boat as you regarding care if I need it in my old age....I won't count myself as OLD for another 20 years though

Issie · Post by **Issie** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:38 pm

Raven wrote: There is one way around that. If you ever need to go in a home, put it in a family members name first. Then they cant take it.

Oh yes they can...if they can prove that you have tried to evade the issue by taking such measures.....I've been there to a solicitors to investigate.

There was a loop-hole where if you did it 7 years before you may need care, then the Government couldn't take your house...that loop-hole has now been closed as far as I know.

The scam with the hospital authorities is reliant on whether you need actual NURSING care ...as in nursing treatment...or whether you are just old and incapable of normal human tasks, like dressing yourself, going to the toilet...that is not classed as nursing care....and the distinction is made by the DHSS and based on a means test.

I don't want to go on benefits, I am entiitled to my Old Aged State Pension....I've paid into the dam thing since leaving school at 15 years old to start work.

I'm not asking for anything that I shouldn't be entitled too.

I've never been on benefits in my life, so I don't intend to start now, but I still think it is wrong that my house should be used as a funding for my care, when the person in the next bed who has never done a days work in their life, and never bought an house or saved...that they should get their care paid for by the system.

My mother passed away a few years ago, and I have always been the one who looked after my parents, particularly after my father died.

I had to place my mother in a nursing home for the final year of her life because she became not only a danger to herself, but also to me....and taking that decision was the hardest thing I will ever do....she nearly blew us both up with the gas cooker, when I took my eyes off her.

Everything that my mother had was taken off her...this included her state pension and the small pension that my father had left her.

She was given (at the time) Â£16.67 per week as "spending money" and I had to account for every penny that was spent.

I'm sorry, but there is no way on this earth that anyone will convince me that an 86 year old woman, who had also worked inbetween having children and lived through the war, should be given Â£16.67 pence per week "spending money" ...and still have to pay Â£7 for the chiropodists out of it.....that is fact.!

How can any Government sleep at night, knowing that an asylum seeker can have Â£114.00 per week in benefits and my mother had Â£16.67 ?

Sorry, I'd better leave this because I'm just too upset....sorry.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:32 pm

OpenMind wrote: [SIZE]FONT=Times New Roman]Hospitals 'face closure' over NHS cash crisis (from "The Daily Telegraph")

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... witt20.xml

The_Daily_Telegraph wrote: "NHS billions have not made much difference, says Hewitt

(...)

Spending on health services in England has risen from Â£33 billion in 1996-97 when Labour came to power to Â£81 billion this financial year. However with an overall budget deficit of Â£500 million, many local primary care trusts are trying to balance their books by cutting jobs, restricting services and closing wards.

A recent report showed "finished consultant episodes" grew by only 9.9 per cent between 1998 and 2004 while spending on the NHS approximately doubled."

So, spending has much more than doubled. The results show little change.

Where has the money gone?