Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Der Wulf
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Der Wulf »

gmc wrote: A lot gets lost in a written post doesn't it.Yes it does, probably body language, and the ability to provide instant explanation are the greatest losses.



gmc wrote: Maybe as a scot I should be dour and obtuse but I don't want people mistaking me for a wee free and most of the time I find it difficult to be dour for very long. Bear in mind this is hogmanay, the time when all the problems of the last year are thrown out with the last rubbish of the year and you start again,:cool: Now that is golden, my vocabulary thanks you for "wee free", and "hogmanay".



gmc wrote: When you wake up you still haven't answered my questions. It is still one you seem loathe to answer. I would also add what do you reckon to the project for the new american century? How influential are they really?
"It is still one you seem loathe to answer." I reviewed the post's, and the only question I find is "why do so many Americans think that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11?" and you are right, I do loathe the question. I consider it on the level of the apocryphal lawyers questian "answer yes or no, do you still beat your wife?" However, Just for you, I'll answer it one time.

There is no single answer, It is the result of any or all of the following: The answerer may [TAM]be stupid, TAM be inatentive to the question, TAM have a mental file labeled 9/11, which contains all things related to terrorism, TAM be mentally challanged and actually think there is a direct connection, TAM be aware of a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam, then incorrectly link that to 9/11, TAM simply be a victim of head up ass [HUA], a fairly common ailment of people with small brain/large mouth syndrome. TAM have listened to too many talk shows, and gone brain dead. TAM have heard the questian from disgruntled euro's so many times, they don't care how they answer, etc ad infinitum.



"so many" this is an unacceptable quantifier , to expect any credibility, this must be expressed in a numerical form, percentage, fractions, or ratio's are valid expressions. The context and format of the base question must be presented along with demographics of those questioned. You will also need to present evidence that those questioned were really Americans.



Finally, I Googled to find any credible evidence that a member of the Bush administration had ever posited a direct link between Saddam and 9/11, no results were found, I did however find accusations from the opposition political party, Michael Moore, the press [American and European] that Bush and Co. had declared such a link. The 9/11 comission found no direct link, but did acknowledge meetings between Saddam and Al Queda reps. prior to 9/11.



:confused:Now if you would, please explain the value, or point of that question. In what manner does it add perspective, reveal truth, or add to your knowledge of things related to 9/11, and Iraq? What does it add to your quest for understanding the American psyche, or character? I find no probative value whatsoever in the question.



"I would also add what do you reckon to the project for the new american century? How influential are they really?"

Sorry but I don't under these questions, could you restate them?:)
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill :D
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by der wulf

Now if you would, please explain the value, or point of that question. In what manner does it add perspective, reveal truth, or add to your knowledge of things related to 9/11, and Iraq? What does it add to your quest for understanding the American psyche, or character? I find no probative value whatsoever in the question.


Actually it does. Bear in mind i am not in the US looking at american media, although I do get CNN and CNBC but find the actual news content a bit limited and I find them irritating. I have seen reports of supposed surveys claiming 60% of americans believe Saddam was behind 911 and was responsible for islamic terrorism. I have been trying to get a handle on how accurate that was hence the question why do you think saddam had a connection to 911.

to quote some of your fellow posters

posted by elise

Wrong.

Saddam had a lot to do with 9/11.

He had been funnelling money to terrorist organizations for years.


posted by kit

GMC,

A couple of thoughts to bounder:

What do terrorists need most to continue to be terrorists? MONEY!

How can someone keep the terrorists from their own door? Give them MONEY.

How does one explain why there were no 'terrorist' attacks in Iraq when Sadam was in power? Sadam was paying OBL off to keep him from interferring in Iraqi politics, such as they were.

The fact that OBL has now made Zarkawi his "prince" in Iraq says something.

If OBL did not have a lot of influence in Iraq why would Zarkawi be so pleased to become OBLs 'main man' in Iraq? If Zarkawi had no conection to OBL why wouldn't Zarkawi tell OBL to pis$ off.


posted by clint (with apologies this is from a completely different post)

I think the connections between 9/11 and Iraq are becoming more and more evident. One of the clear connections is that Iraq’s head of state was paying the families of suicide bombers to encourage them. What were the men who flew the jets into the towers on 9/11 if not suicide bombers? But I would set all that aside and say there is more to our being in Iraq than retaliation for 9/11. I don’t think we are there to get even.




In other posts I have asked a similar question and the answer has typically been of course he did.

posted by der wulf

Finally, I Googled to find any credible evidence that a member of the Bush administration had ever posited a direct link between Saddam and 9/11, no results were found, I did however find accusations from the opposition political party, Michael Moore, the press [American and European] that Bush and Co. had declared such a link. The 9/11 comission found no direct link, but did acknowledge meetings between Saddam and Al Queda reps. prior to 9/11.


Neither could I hence the question why do so many americans think saddam had anything to do with 911? I would take it from your post that you do not think there was any connection either. If some americans persist in believing that saddam had something to do with 911 what does that say about their psyche, if anything?

posted by der wulf

How about a simpler questian like "will the war in Iraq yield any benefit to the United States". If I were seeking a more thoughtful answer, I would list some "things" of value like monetary, moral, status, etc.




Good question I would be curious as to your answer

As to Michael Moore I look at his web site occasionally and follow some of the links out of curiosity.

There do seem to be indications that the current administration was looking for an excuse to go in to Iraq pre 911 and leapt on the attack.

As to project for the new american century

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

http://www.newamericancentury.org/state ... ciples.htm

Have a look at some of the signatories and where they are now.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le1665.htm

When I first read about it I thought another daft conspiracy theory. On one forum where I mentioned itI was told it was a made up site by opponents to GW and not real.

Just curious for an american perspective on their influence.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections20 ... 994,00.htm

happy new year by the wayl
User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by capt_buzzard »

Bill Sikes wrote: President George W Bush's post-election honeymoon came to an abrupt end yesterday as it emerged that, for the first time since last year's invasion, a clear majority of Americans believe the war in Iraq is a mistake.

Source: Telegraph: http://tinyurl.com/43hva

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... ortal.html And I agree this time with G.W. Bush.
Der Wulf
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Der Wulf »

gmc wrote: Actually it does. Bear in mind i am not in the US looking at American media, although I do get CNN and CNBC but find the actual news content a bit limited and I find them irritating. I have seen reports of supposed surveys claiming 60% of Americans believe Saddam was behind 911 and was responsible for Islamic terrorism. I have been trying to get a handle on how accurate that was hence the question why do you think Saddam had a connection to 911.

If you recall i included "TAM have a mental file labeled 9/11, which contains all things related to terrorism" I suspect this could be the 60%, although I would really like to see the actual question asked. Polls and survey's here are pretty predictable, you can pick the pollster to get the slant you want. We are not blessed with an abundance of deep thinkers, and most are concerned with politics only directly,(taxes,entitlements etc) they typically are aware of a generic what, but rarely why.

What does this reveal? Simply that they are politically ignorant, mentally lazy, and have poorly selected priorities.

One other issue is the difficulty of understanding the interrelationships between governments, religious leaders, tribes, and regional culture. Fact is, we really are not fighting a country, but a cult masquerading as a religion. In practical terms, Iraq is simply the geographic location of the primary battlefield.



Now here's something we can easily agree on " I do get CNN and CNBC but find the actual news content a bit limited and I find them irritating"

Our establishment news is pathetic, what little "news" they report is horribly slanted, and more entertainment than fact. Seems every “pretty face” believes that using a teleprompter somehow imbues them with political wisdom, and journalistic prowess.

We have C-SPAN that provides a camera and mic. For political hearings, congressional debates, and occasionally, your PM at parliament. No commentary, just pompous politicians being their crass selves.



gmc wrote: Good question I would be curious as to your answer

I’ll address cost/benefit ratio another time.



gmc wrote: There do seem to be indications that the current administration was looking for an excuse to go in to Iraq pre 911 and leapt on the attack.

The genesis actually was the Gulf war, most Americans are impatient, and loathe to leave issues unresolved. – we definitely will discuss this later.



gmc wrote: As to project for the new american century

http://www.newamericancentury.org/, Shees, it’ll take a year to wade through this.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/state ... ciples.htm

gmc wrote: Have a look at some of the signatories and where they are now. IMAO,good folks.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le1665.htm

gmc wrote: When I first read about it I thought another daft conspiracy theory. On one forum where I mentioned it I was told it was a made up site by opponents to GW and not real. sure sounds like a typical hatchet job.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections20 ... 994,00.htm gmc wrote: happy new year by the wayl



Thank you for the new year greeting, same to you, think we all could use a bit of happiness.

I promise, I’ll open my mind, grit my teeth, place a steel plate over my arse, and have a go at the Guardian.

In exchange, do you know the single most polarizing, and resurrected issue in American politics? :-3
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill :D
User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by capt_buzzard »

The only folk doing well is the arms businness. Alway's a buck to be made someplace - even in war games.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by der wulf

In exchange, do you know the single most polarizing, and resurrected issue in American politics?


Seperation of Church and State?
Der Wulf
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Der Wulf »

:( Roe v Wade, abortion. One side kills doctors to save fetuses, the other want's to make it illegal to inform the parents or require any approval for 10 yr. olds, a policy already in effect in a California school district. Kids are required to not leave school campus, except for an abortion.

This is the litmus test for presidential appointments, especially judges.

This and gay rights are actually the 'lightning rods" from which church v state concerns flow, not the other way around.

The current fight is for unrestricted access, paid for by the govt. [free birth control by abortion] individual responsibility is becoming passe. :-5
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill :D
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by der wulf

Roe v Wade, abortion. One side kills doctors to save fetuses, the other want's to make it illegal to inform the parents or require any approval for 10 yr. olds, a policy already in effect in a California school district. Kids are required to not leave school campus, except for an abortion.

This is the litmus test for presidential appointments, especially judges.

This and gay rights are actually the 'lightning rods" from which church v state concerns flow, not the other way around.

The current fight is for unrestricted access, paid for by the govt. [free birth control by abortion] individual responsibility is becoming passe.


The religious right in america seem determined to have their way, at least I get that impression. That's really what I meant about seperation of church and state, how far should religious leaderss be able to set the agenda for lawmaking. Religious extremism I tend to associate with religious bigotry and hatred, narrow mindedness and the overwhelming conviction that they are right and everybody else morally bankrupt.

The UK, and europe as a whole perhaps, is far more secular in outlook than the US. Arguements along the lines of I'm right, you're wrong and it says so in the bible tend not to get very far. Maybe they have lost the point ofthe protestant reformation, that you read the bible for yourself and don't depend on priests-or preachers to tell you what to think and how to interpret it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections20 ... 02,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldnewsguid ... 55,00.html

The guardian, by the way is owned by a trust and at least tries to put both sides, usually for one viewpoint you can find an opposing view and reporters and correspondents from around thebworld, which is why i tend to use it a lot, saves lots of writing.

The local US papers are interesting, it like looking at a different planet.
User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by capt_buzzard »

True. Not only was the war a mistake. So was G.W. Bush
A Karenina
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by A Karenina »

capt_buzzard wrote: True. Not only was the war a mistake. So was G.W. Bush
Polls are now saying that GW is the most unpopular president this early on after being re-elected - EVER. Soooo, we re-elected him and then weeks afterward the majority of us don't like him?



I do adore good irony.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.

Aristotle
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by A Karenna

I do adore good irony.
__________________

Hang on I thought it was a given that americans don't understand irony?
A Karenina
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by A Karenina »

gmc wrote: Hang on I thought it was a given that americans don't understand irony?
:wah: True!



I will never forget reading Jonathon Swift's Modest Proposal in a high school class. I started laughing out loud as we read it, and I couldn't stop.



Everyone else was outraged...what!! Eating children!! The teacher grinned at me, but everyone else just glared.



(dramatic sigh) I'm just not a nomal American, gmc.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.

Aristotle
Der Wulf
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Der Wulf »

A Karenina wrote: :wah:

(dramatic sigh) I'm just not a nomal American, gmc.
A point that seems consistantly missed, The only thing normal or typical about Americans is that we are not "normal" or "typical.



That we confound and bemuse the Euro's, is precious, that we confound and bemuse ourselves, is our salvation. :eek: {OOPS used a religous word, the "religious right in america" must have taken control of my brain} :yh_rotfl







'
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill :D
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by der wulf

A point that seems consistantly missed, The only thing normal or typical about Americans is that we are not "normal" or "typical.


So you admit it, americans are not normal :D :D :D
Der Wulf
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Der Wulf »

gmc wrote: So you admit it, americans are not normal Elias Canetti

People love as self-recognition what they hate as an accusation. :yh_peace
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill :D
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by der wulf

How about a simpler questian like "will the war in Iraq yield any benefit to the United States". If I were seeking a more thoughtful answer, I would list some "things" of value like monetary, moral, status, etc.


also posted by der wulf



Quote:

Originally Posted by gmc

Good question I would be curious as to your answer

I’ll address cost/benefit ratio another time.


Still curious. I'm not having a go at you but most americans who support the war when you ask these kind of questions resort to you are just criticising and you're wrong. It's almost as if they don't want to think about it. When you point out Iraq had no connection to 911 and that the war may in fact lead to more terrorism and even use links to their own investigations that say the same thing it's as if such evidence is irrelevant and what they believe to be the case is more imnportant than reality.



posted by der wulf

IMAO,good folks.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le1665.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmc

When I first read about it I thought another daft conspiracy theory. On one forum where I mentioned it I was told it was a made up site by opponents to GW and not real.

sure sounds like a typical hatchet job.




That site certainly is, what I meant was the PNAC site itself and the pnac was dismissed as being made up, which floored me because you can check factual content out for yourself.
Der Wulf
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Der Wulf »

[QUOTE=gmc]

Still curious. I'm not having a go at you but most americans who support the war when you ask these kind of questions resort to you are just criticising and you're wrong.[ /QUOTE]



Keep yer kilt on, it's coming.



BTW: Is it true that Scotsmen are uniquely endowed to ensure a minimal possibility of exposure when wearing a kilt?? :-3
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill :D
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by der wulf

BTW: Is it true that Scotsmen are uniquely endowed to ensure a minimal possibility of exposure when wearing a kilt??


Your inferiority complex is showing :D

You know we have Harley Davidson Owners clubs here? Not Hells Angels though. The sight of 20 or 30 , Lawers and accountants (they are very expensive bikes here much beloved of mid life crisis executive and professional types) bowling along the A9 with kilts wafting in the breeze is a sight to behold. Must be very different seeing a group of hells angels.
Der Wulf
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:18 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Der Wulf »

gmc wrote: Your inferiority complex is showing :D .blushing, Never had it called that before, and meself in knee pants too! :o





You know we have Harley Davidson Owners clubs here? Not Hells Angels though. The sight of 20 or 30 , Lawers and accountants (they are very expensive bikes here much beloved of mid life crisis executive and professional types) bowling along the A9 with kilts wafting in the breeze is a sight to behold. Must be very different seeing a group of hells angels.A picture of that would be priceless. :cool:
Old age and treachery, is an acceptable response to overwelming youth and skill :D
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by der wulf

A picture of that would be priceless.


http://www.hognorth.btinternet.co.uk/members.htm

Trust me, what may look cool and good fun in a hot country looks really daft when it's belting with rain. It;s really annoying when you get stuck behind a group of them them as they can't corner terribly fast and they bunch together in a large groups. They do enjoy themselves though. Most seem to buy them to have something to polish.
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

I am constantly amazed by the pro and con against Bush's tenure of office. Maybe my memory is lost but I don't recall there being any recent Al Quaeda assaults on America for the past few years?

I know there are lots of these attacks by them occurring in Iraq where there aren't any of them to be found? It just evades me why there aren't any attacks in America? It must be that dumb Canuck in me that can't see things for what they are!

If the source is the Washington Post, then you must realize that they have a lot to live up to that they can't do, so, they have to make up their own stories.

Like bettors at a dogfight the Washington Post contingent jumps around placing their bets on whom is right in their how the fight is going to turn out synopsis.

Egging both dogs on they ply their savvy to to the suddenness of the change that is fighting. Encouraging both, laughing at the death that is not theirs to own.

They lie, use subterfuge, demean and all the other tricks that you could expect out of people who are not in the pit.

Only 2300 or so died in Pearl Harbor. What did they expect with 3000 civilians from around the world dying in the towers?

The Al quaeda were driven out of Afghanistan and they went into Iraq where they are getting their comeuppance while they are hiding in amongst the women and children. While they fantasize that they are freedom fighters waiting to score a whack of virgins in the next life, tells me that free... dumb fighters is a more apt name for these people.

I hate fighting but, when you attack me, you will hate fighting too.
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by koan »

Whether it is supported or not, there will always be war. Who started this war? It is like the chicken or the egg question to me. If you don't support it what do you do to stop it? If you succeed it is only a matter of time before the next one starts. People have always been at war. To not like it is to not like being human. Then you could ask "Were Human's a mistake?"

I know it sounds very negative but this is one of the "dark side" of human nature issues. I look when I drive past an accident. But I try to keep it to a brief glance.
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

I keep hoping that these'll be the last ones. I know that that is not going to happen tomorrow but, eventually, we may have peace. When people around the fighting clue into the fact that they are just as guilty as the battlers, and even more so, then maybe we'll all forget about war and get on with peace.

It might be a dream but where would we be today without dreams?

I know the dark side but I know the light side, too.

Subjugation to anything sucks.
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by koan »

There can't be leaders without followers. Maybe if we all learned to be our own leaders war would end. Dreams are in the future. The future doesn't exist.
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

koan wrote: There can't be leaders without followers. Maybe if we all learned to be our own leaders war would end. Dreams are in the future. The future doesn't exist.


Isn't the purpose of dreaming to make them into the present?
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by koan »

We can give input as to how we would like things to go but with the issue of war we have the dreams of others competing with our will for "reality". We can only participate in the small scale of our personal lives and hope that by living an example of peace others will want to do the same. To dream of world peace and think that it will have an effect is beyond the scope of our personal influence. How do you live in peace right now? If you do exude this example than you are doing your part on a daily basis.

If you say 'try living your life in peace with those around you every day' then you might get through to people. If you say 'this country shouldn't fight with that country, do you agree?' then I think the breath is wasted.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by kenloft

The Al quaeda were driven out of Afghanistan and they went into Iraq where they are getting their comeuppance while they are hiding in amongst the women and children. While they fantasize that they are freedom fighters waiting to score a whack of virgins in the next life, tells me that free... dumb fighters is a more apt name for these people.




O.K. I'll ask you. Why do you think Iraq had anything to do with 911 and al queda?

from an earlier post

Not according to the 911 commission, forget what is in the mainstream press read the thing yourself.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/

from section 10

Quote:

Responding to a presidential tasking, Clarke’s office sent a memo to Rice on September 18, titled “Survey of Intelligence Information on Any Iraq Involvement in the September 11 Attacks.” Rice’s chief staffer on Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalilzad, concurred in its conclusion that only some anecdotal evidence

linked Iraq to al Qaeda.The memo found no “compelling case”that Iraq had either planned or perpetrated the attacks. It passed along a few foreign intelligence reports, including the Czech report alleging an April 2001 Prague meeting between Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer (discussed in chapter 7) and a Polish report that personnel at the headquarters of Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad were told before September 11 to go on the streets to gauge crowd reaction to an unspecified event.Arguing that the case for links between Iraq and al Qaeda was weak, the memo pointed out that Bin Ladin resented the secularism of Saddam Hussein’s regime. Finally, the memo said, there was no confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Ladin on unconventional

weapons.62 On the afternoon of 9/11, according to contemporaneous

kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

koan wrote: If you say 'try living your life in peace with those around you every day' then you might get through to people. If you say 'this country shouldn't fight with that country, do you agree?' then I think the breath is wasted.


The Dalai Lama, when he was in Canada earlier this year, was being interviewed by a female correspondent who was fawning over him because of his Nobel Peace Prize. His striving to liberate his homeland peacefully, yadda- yadda -yadda etc.

The Dalai Lama then explained to the woman that peace is all well and good but if you are atacked by a wild beast that is intent on killing you, then you will have to fight or you will be dead. He then went into being thankful that the the world that we live in today is a result of the valour and honour of those that fought against the fascim and nazism of the day. The reporter was both astounded and enlightened at the same time. So were many that saw the interview.

Standing around saying that you can do nothing is the Al-Quaeda's greatest weapon. I hope that is not where you are at.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by kenloft

The Dalai Lama then explained to the woman that peace is all well and good but if you are atacked by a wild beast that is intent on killing you, then you will have to fight or you will be dead. He then went into being thankful that the the world that we live in today is a result of the valour and honour of those that fought against the fascim and nazism of the day. The reporter was both astounded and enlightened at the same time. So were many that saw the interview.

Standing around saying that you can do nothing is the Al-Quaeda's greatest weapon. I hope that is not where you are at.


Yes and we were all grateful when america finally joined in in the war against fascism and nazism even if they seem to be under the impression no one else was involved.

You still haven't answered my question. Why do you think Iraq had anything to do with 911 and alqueda? What ever reason for going in to iraq you care to choose that can't be one of them as there is little or no substance to the belief.

I am not deliberately trying to antagonise you I am curious as to why you think there is a connection.
User avatar
capt_buzzard
Posts: 5557
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by capt_buzzard »

gmc wrote: Yes and we were all grateful when america finally joined in in the war against fascism and nazism even if they seem to be under the impression no one else was involved.

You still haven't answered my question. Why do you think Iraq had anything to do with 911 and alqueda? What ever reason for going in to iraq you care to choose that can't be one of them as there is little or no substance to the belief.

I am not deliberately trying to antagonise you I am curious as to why you think there is a connection. I doubt very much they will answer that.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by capn buzzard

I doubt very much they will answer that.


I think you are being uncharitable. I've shown why I think there wasn't using US sources so they couldn't be dismissed out of hand I'm curious as to why so many think there is. Trouble is you can't seem to ask such questions and get a civil reply.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050124fa_fact

Saw this guy being interviewed on cnn, never heard of him before. Interesting guy, one of the things he said was that we had better hope the neocons are right because they are going ahead regardless of what anybody says.

He apparently was the guy that first reported on abu graidh.
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

You said, "Yes and we were all grateful when america finally joined in in the war against fascism and nazism even if they seem to be under the impression no one else was involved.

You still haven't answered my question. Why do you think Iraq had anything to do with 911 and alqueda? What ever reason for going in to iraq you care to choose that can't be one of them as there is little or no substance to the belief.

I am not deliberately trying to antagonise you I am curious as to why you think there is a connection."

When the Taliban and Al Quaeda were driven out of Afghanistan they headed to parts unknown. They attempted to hole up in the hills but were driven out by the Allies. Any of them that went to Iran were taken in, allegedly, by the government and put up at the local prison system. The number was small and the rest of the people that escaped went to their homelands and Iraq.

The very fact that Osama Bin Laden has taken the prestige of putting together the attack against the Towers means that he and everyone, that is associated with him, are guilty of killing all of these innocents. We are not talking Boy Scouts. We are talking killers of women and children.

The only place that they can go to is their homelands. From there thay can move about and move into any of the countries surrounding them. Their die hard attitudes meant that they were going to go to where the action was and that is Iraq.

Now, if you can sit there and tell me, with a straight face, that none of them made it to Iraq then there is no point of going on with the conversation? I am not talking about the Saudis or the Jordanians or the Syrians. I am talking about the Iraqis.

The day before America declared war on the Japanese the Canadian government declared war on the Japanese because of their dastardly attack on Pearl Harbor. Because America had Hollywood they could take all the credit they could want for the outcome of World War 2. History books say different. Americans don't deny the history books. They would just rather exploit the deeds that they had done, to the max.

I don't think that there is a person that can say that it isn't so. Nor do I believe that those in power, in Iraq, didn't know who these individuals were. Just knowing human nature tells you that it is so. Understanding a police state tell you that it is so!

They may be a minutae of the whole but they are the nucleus of what could happen. They never expected that the Allies would come looking to dance. Hiding in their sheltered existences came to nought. You do not kill innocents and think that you can get away with it. Maybe in the thirties, forties and the fifties you could get away with it, but not today.

I like to think that we in the West are trying our best to bring people up to our level. Sociologically, materially and spiritually. Freedom came to us through hard fought and costly service by the men and women that preserved our freedom with their lives.

If you are foolish enough, like the Al quaeda, Saddamites or what have you, to think that there will be no retribution then you are living on another planet. Their ongoing civil war of Sunnis versus Shiites may work for them but it doesn't work for me(us). Subjugation by any group over another group puts us that much further behind in the evolution of every man and woman being born into a free society.

Fifteen centuries of hiding behind a Holy Book doesn't cut it in the twentieth or twenty-first century. Just as the Muslims believed that it was their duty to protect the "men of the book' in ancient times,so too, is it our duty to protect the men and women of the Koran. We don't see the obsfucation that has and is hindering the Muslims because we have our beliefs that are just as valid as theirs are. It is written and understood in their religious texts.

Those that propagate their plush lives, through the dissemination of lies and half truths, that turn ordinary people into suicidal maniacs will have to atone for their ways on this spiritual plane of existence and not in the hereafter. God's Word is Truth and is substantiated by the physical world around us. It is not someone's ideal of what they think the Word is because they have more swords or guns than you have.

DaVinci is a prima facie example of the power of a corruptible human being that controls the world, around them, through the sword. He that lives by the sword dies by the sword. No matter what the organized religion, it can be brought to task for its behaviour. Belief in the hereafter is a given for all religions. It is the belief in what is understood here and now that separates the wheat from the chaff. The believers from the non-believers.

You can't dispute reality.
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by koan »

Yet the war in discussion was started by the US. So unpeaceful people seek world peace. It is hypocritical. War is not about peace war is about power. I will defend myself when attacked but I will not attack people because someone tells me they are bad. The leaders behind the "bad people" are not the ones getting killed in a war.
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

Koan it is easy to lay the blame on other people when there is no definitive proof of what happened.

I think that George Bush has been and is one of the worst presidents in the USA because he has let the poor suffer and become criminalized so that the businesses can have their newest, legitimate slaves for the factories.



Much as I don't like him he also has that side that has picked up the gauntlet that has been thrown by people who think nothing of killing innocents.

You can say that there are umpteen thousand dead Iraqis that were bombed out of existence but there is, yet, no proof that he has done so. There is no proof that these people, that were bombed, were not put in harm's way by the retreating forces of Saddam Hussein. Who is there to say, yet, that the human shields weren't created to make the numbers explode to such an extent that the Americans would be vilified by the world for the slaughter of these Iraqi civilians.

The Allies, with all their armaments, haven't even come anywhere close to killing the numbers that have met their deaths at Saddam's hands. Fifty years ago you would have made more sense but in this day and age of smart weaponry the targets are more clearly identified and expunged.

It is up to the people to remove themselves from the area. It may sound cold but it isn't meant to be. If you are living near a legitimate target then it is best not to be there. You can be sure that most of those that were caught probably didn't realize that they were in harm's way.

The Shock and Awe was meant to be a warning to all those in the region that they had never seen anything as powerful coming against them. There was no carpet bombing of civilian areas.

The American troops are virtual sittinng ducks for the insurgents. They are trying to contain them in the areas that they control and, consequently, they are easy prey for the guns hidden amongst the women and children civilians. If the Americans were the criminals that many are being led to believe they are, then, wouldn't they have carpet bombed these areas?

It could, literally, be over in days but that is not the battle plan. Democracy is not a gift. There are too many that want to create Democracy in their image which means that many that should share in its bounty won't because of the avarice of the leaders.

You were attacked but you don't want to believe that you were because you are safe, wherever you are. Waiting to see if they'd do it again is no way to live your life because it will haunt you when you pick up your dead family members for burial. This is not the first attack against the Americans. The towers were only one of a series of attacks that had been perpetrated by this Muslim-Arab alliance against the Free World.

Waiting for the other shoe to fall is no way to go about your life. You would fight to defend yourself but you have to be fighting a known and seen enemy. They aren't known or seen. They are non-descript and as such could do more damage than you could believe.

You don't want to survey the damage after the disaster.
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by kenloft

When the Taliban and Al Quaeda were driven out of Afghanistan they headed to parts unknown. They attempted to hole up in the hills but were driven out by the Allies. Any of them that went to Iran were taken in, allegedly, by the government and put up at the local prison system. The number was small and the rest of the people that escaped went to their homelands and Iraq.

The very fact that Osama Bin Laden has taken the prestige of putting together the attack against the Towers means that he and everyone, that is associated with him, are guilty of killing all of these innocents. We are not talking Boy Scouts. We are talking killers of women and children.

The only place that they can go to is their homelands. From there thay can move about and move into any of the countries surrounding them. Their die hard attitudes meant that they were going to go to where the action was and that is Iraq.

Now, if you can sit there and tell me, with a straight face, that none of them made it to Iraq then there is no point of going on with the conversation? I am not talking about the Saudis or the Jordanians or the Syrians. I am talking about the Iraqis.


Al queda is saudi in origin as were most of the 911 terrorista. Iraq had nothing to do with them. Having waged war on another muslim state Saddam was a pariah to most muslims, sure he would have caused trouble if he could but there is still little or no connection to 911. Why do you think there is? You refer to what happened after the taliban and al queda were kicked out of afghanistan, they may have gone to Iraq but they were not there before.

to quote the 911 commission report again

” Rice’s chief staffer on Afghanistan, Zalmay Khalilzad, concurred in its conclusion that only some anecdotal evidence

linked Iraq to al Qaeda.The memo found no “compelling case”that Iraq had either planned or perpetrated the attacks. It passed along a few foreign intelligence reports, including the Czech report alleging an April 2001 Prague meeting between Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer (discussed in chapter 7) and a Polish report that personnel at the headquarters of Iraqi intelligence in Baghdad were told before September 11 to go on the streets to gauge crowd reaction to an unspecified event.Arguing that the case for links between Iraq and al Qaeda was weak, the memo pointed out that Bin Ladin resented the secularism of Saddam Hussein’s regime. Finally, the memo said, there was no confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Ladin on unconventional

weapons.62 On the afternoon of 9/11, according to contemporaneous




911 was an excuse to invade Iraq not a response to a terrorist attack.

The only place that they can go to is their homelands. From there thay can move about and move into any of the countries surrounding them. Their die hard attitudes meant that they were going to go to where the action was and that is Iraq.

Now, if you can sit there and tell me, with a straight face, that none of them made it to Iraq then there is no point of going on with the conversation? I am not talking about the Saudis or the Jordanians or the Syrians. I am talking about the Iraqis


Yeah no doubt they are there now taking advantage of the situation.

One of the points made by opponents of the war is that it would increase terrorism not stop, and that seems to be exactly what is happening. If the "neocons" who seem to control the administration now turn on Iran and provoke conflict, far from helping moderates all it will do is crystallise support for the regime. Nobody likes an outsider interfering, all that will happen is that more people will join the terrorists. As a foreign policy pre-emptive warfare sucks.
koan
Posts: 16817
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by koan »

Al queda is saudi in origin as were most of the 911 terrorista. Iraq had nothing to do with them.
Thank you GMC, :-6

That was my response as well but you said it so much better.
jahamaa
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:24 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by jahamaa »

Bill Sikes wrote: But they're both "yes", aren't they? N.B. I am asking about the poll, not the putative result!





Like Mr. Clinton, who "did not have sex with that woman" ? :->


Bill, If I might interject a somewhat amusing saying that my father used to use on polls, He said " Figures don't lie but liars figure. "
GOD CREATED MAN AND SAM COLT MADE THEM EQUAL
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

gmc wrote: Al queda is saudi in origin as were most of the 911 terrorista. Iraq had nothing to do with them. Having waged war on another muslim state Saddam was a pariah to most muslims, sure he would have caused trouble if he could but there is still little or no connection to 911. Why do you think there is? You refer to what happened after the taliban and al queda were kicked out of afghanistan, they may have gone to Iraq but they were not there before.


The Al Quaeda, although born in Saudi Arabia, is a pan-Arabic armed force against the West. The fact that the anti-war elements say that the use of attacks against the 'nouveau establishment' will rise rings true, so do the words that the establishment stated many times, "The attacks will become increasingly dramatic as the election approaches". So they are both right. Which one is the right-est is for you to infer.

By suggesting that there were no Al Quaedas in Iraq you are also stating that all Al Quaeda in Saudi Arabia weren't there, in Saudi Arabia, either. You may think that you are right in your estimation, but I don't think so.

We are not talking about people that play by the rules. We are talking about people that twist the rules to suit their purposes. A prime example of this is their rallying cry to the Muslims that theirs is a holy war.

There is a similarity between Saddam's claim to the holy war when he was defending himself from the onslaught of the Allied forces during the first Gulf War. All he lost was 150,000 lowly troops, not his cherished Guards, and the booty that they were told to steal from the Kuwaitis. No damage, so to speak, of the realm per se.

Saddam may have been a pariah but that didn't stop the suicide bombers' families, of the region, from cashing in on Saddam's largesse in the way of money paid to them for their losses created by their children's deaths. Money that should have gone into restoring his infrastructure, that he had had destroyed by the Allied bombings, didn't. Instead, he played to the foreign press about the depravity of the West in destroying the water purification resources for the region. Playing to the crowd he sang about how he couldn't get the chemicals that were needed because they could have been used to make WMD's.

I remember talking to an Iraqi in Canada during the first Gulf War and his attitude was that Saddam was really smart and he would pull out of the region just in time. Behind his eyes were the thoughts of the stupid Allies didn't know who they were up against. You could see the false pride and bluster. He wasn't there. He was in the inferior lands of the West. We all know that they aren't smart enough to out do the brilliant strategies of the Iraqi mentality. We know nothing because we are blinded by our greed and need for oil. Two weeks later the Allies destroyed his troops in their retreat. It would be interesting to see how many sunnis and shias died in this engagement?
User avatar
Suresh Gupta
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:29 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Suresh Gupta »

jahamaa wrote: Bill, If I might interject a somewhat amusing saying that my father used to use on polls, He said " Figures don't lie but liars figure. "


Yes, it really amusing. But in India, these liars after winning the polls make the figures also lie. It is the quantity not the quality which matters in forming the government. Figures are manipulated and shown as saying something which is not true.
Spread love not hate

Suresh Gupta

http://www.betterlife4all.com
gmc
Posts: 13566
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 9:44 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by gmc »

posted by kenloft

By suggesting that there were no Al Quaedas in Iraq you are also stating that all Al Quaeda in Saudi Arabia weren't there, in Saudi Arabia, either. You may think that you are right in your estimation, but I don't think so.




I'm not suggesting, I agree with your 911 commission that there was only the most tentative connection at best. Al queda is all about the political situation in Saudi Arabia, the US is their main ally propping them up which is why they picked the US to attack and why the terrorists were saudi nationals funded by saudi supporters with money laundered throiugh saudi banks.

posted by kenloft

The Al Quaeda, although born in Saudi Arabia, is a pan-Arabic armed force against the West. The fact that the anti-war elements say that the use of attacks against the 'nouveau establishment' will rise rings true, so do the words that the establishment stated many times, "The attacks will become increasingly dramatic as the election approaches". So they are both right. Which one is the right-est is for you to infer.




In countries where there is no political freedom protest often takes other forms such as religious radicalism as happened in Iran. They are concerned about the situation in their own countries, all thgat is happening in Iraq is they now have a focus for their activities as to there being a pan arab force against the west there might well be one in the making now where there wasn't before.

The simple fact remains that there was no connection between iraq and 911 except that dreamed up by your administration. When the UK was conned in to joining the US it was because of supposed wmd's not the 911 attacks. It has also become clear that our government alterd the wording of intelligence reports to make the case for war.

The whoile thing smacks more of modern day manifest destiny than anything else.
lynny
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:19 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by lynny »

I support the war for the removal of saddam , we have him, therefore in my opinion , that in & of itself is a success . Not to mention the elections coming up in Iraq. I love seeing a free country rise out of the old ashes of what saddam left behind. The women can walk down the street without being grabbed , raped & murdered by one of saddam's sons & they will , I'm sure , come to use the freedom that is now theirs to their benefit to build a stronger country. They need time just like we did. As far as the polls go as one person out here said on a different thread (& topic) polls can be twisted to say just about anything you want them to say
lynny
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:19 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by lynny »

figures lie if you twist them around to lie, that's one reason I have no use for the demos or libs , they seem to think if you lie & lie often enough you'll change the truth. The truth , in my opinion, was stated on Nov. 2,2004 most people I know love W & support his bringing down saddam ( or at least making it possible for the troops to bring saddam down)
kensloft
Posts: 2793
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 1:37 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by kensloft »

They need time just like we did.


HEAR! HEAR!
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Bill Sikes »

lynny wrote: I support the war for the removal of saddam , we have him, therefore in my opinion , that in & of itself is a success . Not to mention the elections coming up in Iraq. I love seeing a free country rise out of the old ashes of what saddam left behind. The women can walk down the street without being grabbed , raped & murdered by one of saddam's sons & they will , I'm sure , come to use the freedom that is now theirs to their benefit to build a stronger country.


'Kinell. I am somewhat shaken by the naivety of that paragraph.
lynny
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:19 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by lynny »

I'm take it your a liberal dem? The libs love to say oh you guys just aren't educated on the topic , it's hard to see people disagree with you , but that doesn't make it wrong. The people of Iraq will use their freedom just as we do. You can't take people that cringed at the sight of the killer that ran their country & expect them to know right out of the gate how to run their own country, the younger people there have never even known a country without saddam. Also , to say that they aren't better off without him , you are forgetting the 1 million human beings he murdered , but at the risk of being rude , I've noticed over the years that forgetting the facts is something the dem's are very fond of ... I just hurts too much to admit Bush did a good thing (& again I know most of the credit goes to the troops) but he & Blair (along with others) helped make it possible
User avatar
Bill Sikes
Posts: 5515
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by Bill Sikes »

lynny wrote: I'm take it your a liberal dem? The libs love to say oh you guys just aren't educated on the topic , it's hard to see people disagree with you , but that doesn't make it wrong. The people of Iraq will use their freedom just as we do. You can't take people that cringed at the sight of the killer that ran their country & expect them to know right out of the gate how to run their own country, the younger people there have never even known a country without saddam. Also , to say that they aren't better off without him , you are forgetting the 1 million human beings he murdered , but at the risk of being rude , I've noticed over the years that forgetting the facts is something the dem's are very fond of ... I just hurts too much to admit Bush did a good thing (& again I know most of the credit goes to the troops) but he & Blair (along with others) helped make it possible


I only called you naive, not stupid.
User avatar
BabyRider
Posts: 10163
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:00 pm

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by BabyRider »

lynny wrote: I'm take it your a liberal dem? The libs love to say oh you guys just aren't educated on the topic , it's hard to see people disagree with you , but that doesn't make it wrong. The people of Iraq will use their freedom just as we do. You can't take people that cringed at the sight of the killer that ran their country & expect them to know right out of the gate how to run their own country, the younger people there have never even known a country without saddam. Also , to say that they aren't better off without him , you are forgetting the 1 million human beings he murdered , but at the risk of being rude , I've noticed over the years that forgetting the facts is something the dem's are very fond of ... I just hurts too much to admit Bush did a good thing (& again I know most of the credit goes to the troops) but he & Blair (along with others) helped make it possible
:yh_clap :yh_clap
[FONT=Arial Black]I hope you cherish this sweet way of life, and I hope you know that it comes with a price.
~Darrel Worley~
[/FONT]










Bullet's trial was a farce. Can I get an AMEN?????


We won't be punished for our sins, but BY them.




lynny
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:19 am

Poll shows most Americans now think war was a mistake.

Post by lynny »

Were you saing that the people of Iraq won't be able to run the country ? Otherwise I don't see how your using "naive " unless it is intended as an insult? :-2 :-2 :-2
Post Reply

Return to “Warfare Military”