Regardless of whether or not Jesus was born on this date in the year dot, to many people, today represents the culmination of several weeks of planning, and I sincerely hope all goes well.
In order to cater for both those do NOT believe, so as not to drag it out any longer than necessary, but also to cater for those wh DO believe, may I suggest before the head of the table start carving the turkey, he/she pauses for a moment and says:
"Heavenly Father, on this special day, we give humble thanks for the food we are about to receive. Amen."
It matters not a hoot whether not a single "Amen" is returned, whoever say it will have said it on behalf of everybody: "...WE give humble thanks..." It'll take less than eight seconds to say. You can then tear into it like a group of savages!:wah:
Afore we start...
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Afore we start...
We might thank the animals who gave their lives for our food too. 
Afore we start...
RedGlitter;496504 wrote: We might thank the animals who gave their lives for our food too.
Cynic!:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl
Cynic!:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Afore we start...
weinbeck;496512 wrote: Cynic!:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl
No seriously....I'm not sure what you mean by cynic...we kill God's creatures and eat them. Why should we not give thanks and ask for blessings for their souls? They are God's beings after all.
No seriously....I'm not sure what you mean by cynic...we kill God's creatures and eat them. Why should we not give thanks and ask for blessings for their souls? They are God's beings after all.
Afore we start...
RedGlitter;496545 wrote:
No seriously....I'm not sure what you mean by cynic...we kill God's creatures and eat them. Why should we not give thanks and ask for blessings for their souls? They are God's beings after all.
Taking your first reply at face value, I assumed it was a joke, that you were mocking me for saying Grace, especially seeing as it was accompanied by a smiling smiley. On the understanding that it is not a wind-up, or that you are going to try and turn me into a vegetarian (although there is nothing wrong in being one), I am quite happy to expand my views on the subject.
In the book of Genesis, God quite clearly stated "I give you dominion over all other creatures." He gave us a perfect world in every way, with fruit trees of every conceivable description, along with the creatures in it are for both our pleasure, and to sustain us food-wise. Few things on this earth are inedible. Whatever you eat is eventually passed out as waste matter.
I firmly believe it is with God's authority that we are able to feed off the fowls, fish and various livestock in His world, otherwise He would have decreed differently.
Do animals have souls?? It was a big discussion on a different religious forum with people quoting VERY selected passages from the bible to support their arguements. Certainly they have a life, and most certainly they have a very high degree of intelligence - no more so than with some of the smallest of God's creatures, the ant. But do they have a soul as we know it? The dictionary defines the soul as: The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being, often regarded as immortal. And there lies the crux of the matter - what exactly is a soul? In biblical terms it is generally accepted as what one would describe as the essential ingredient for life after death, but if you asked me will you meet up with Tiddles or Fifi again in an afterlife, I'm afraid I would be very much inclined to say "no". I feel they are there for us to derive pleasure from looking after them, and that if, through man's lust for blood sports, certain animals become extinct or critically low, then I believe we will be very much answerable to God.
All life comes from God - in my humble, infinitismal mind, I perceive God as an omni-potent, omni-present Spirit who lives within each and every one of us. He has given us EVEYTHING - everything that goes awry is due to man's own stupidity, be it pollution or the ozone layer.
Over to you, now. Tell me why you feel animals have souls. I'm genuinely interested to learn of your theories.
No seriously....I'm not sure what you mean by cynic...we kill God's creatures and eat them. Why should we not give thanks and ask for blessings for their souls? They are God's beings after all.
Taking your first reply at face value, I assumed it was a joke, that you were mocking me for saying Grace, especially seeing as it was accompanied by a smiling smiley. On the understanding that it is not a wind-up, or that you are going to try and turn me into a vegetarian (although there is nothing wrong in being one), I am quite happy to expand my views on the subject.
In the book of Genesis, God quite clearly stated "I give you dominion over all other creatures." He gave us a perfect world in every way, with fruit trees of every conceivable description, along with the creatures in it are for both our pleasure, and to sustain us food-wise. Few things on this earth are inedible. Whatever you eat is eventually passed out as waste matter.
I firmly believe it is with God's authority that we are able to feed off the fowls, fish and various livestock in His world, otherwise He would have decreed differently.
Do animals have souls?? It was a big discussion on a different religious forum with people quoting VERY selected passages from the bible to support their arguements. Certainly they have a life, and most certainly they have a very high degree of intelligence - no more so than with some of the smallest of God's creatures, the ant. But do they have a soul as we know it? The dictionary defines the soul as: The spiritual or immaterial part of a human being, often regarded as immortal. And there lies the crux of the matter - what exactly is a soul? In biblical terms it is generally accepted as what one would describe as the essential ingredient for life after death, but if you asked me will you meet up with Tiddles or Fifi again in an afterlife, I'm afraid I would be very much inclined to say "no". I feel they are there for us to derive pleasure from looking after them, and that if, through man's lust for blood sports, certain animals become extinct or critically low, then I believe we will be very much answerable to God.
All life comes from God - in my humble, infinitismal mind, I perceive God as an omni-potent, omni-present Spirit who lives within each and every one of us. He has given us EVEYTHING - everything that goes awry is due to man's own stupidity, be it pollution or the ozone layer.
Over to you, now. Tell me why you feel animals have souls. I'm genuinely interested to learn of your theories.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Afore we start...
Hi Weinbeck,
I assure you I was not making fun of you in my first post, not in the least. The smiley was only there ironically, to make my post more friendly. If you've seen me around the animal threads, then you've seen how passionate I am about animals and often I can get pretty...warm.
Which is why I'll leave the new thread suggestion to Diuretic
because if I start it I know I will at some point become...warm...again. Sorry, Diuretic but it's a good thread idea.
My take on this will be different from yours, Weinbeck, because I believe in (my) God but I am not christian and although some things in the bible do ring true for me, most do not apply to my beliefs. I say "my" God because I want to avoid anyone's comments that there is only one God, the Christian God, etc and I'll burn in hell if I don't believe.
Ok, that said....
I believe...know...as best I possibly can that animal have souls. Theoretically all things, even rocks, have energy so there's potential for a soul there but I am unsure about that when it comes to plants and rocks, etc, so I'll stick with the animals here. They are very like us in that they can feel, think, understand. Maybe they cannot reason or do algebra but they certainly feel pain, love, sadness, grief, boredom, anger. Cut them and they bleed their life source as do we. They have families...see the elephant who maintains matriarchal connections for life. See how they grieve when one dies or is killed. See how they hold vigil over the fallen animal.
The wolf, swan and some others mate for life. They love and grieve similar to us.
God made these living beings in my opinion, to add grace and benefit to the world. We do not have to kill them in modern society (unlike natives who use them for skin and food) but we still do. Domestic and even some wild creatures give us love, aid (see rescue/seeing eye dogs, ie) andcomfort as well as milk, butter, cheese, eggs, and flesh to eat and leather and fur "byproducts."
I don't subscribe to God gving us dominion in the respect of letting us kill. The bible says we are to steward the animals. That means protect and govern.
I don't feel in my heart and mind that God would make a living thing such as a human or other type of animal and not assign it a soul. That seems a waste. The blood is the life essence. The soul is the power, the energy that animates the body. It is life itself, immortal.
Plus if one believes in reincarnation, that assigns a whole new factor to animals and the soul.
Forgot to add: doesn't it say in the bible "eat not the animals or fish but the fruit on the trees" or something like that?
And no worries about becoming a veggie. I am happy to answer veggie questions or help someone become one if they ask but I used to eat meat myself. I just changed my ways is all. After all, you aren't going to make me a meat eater,so fair is fair. <---that's another friendly smiley!
I assure you I was not making fun of you in my first post, not in the least. The smiley was only there ironically, to make my post more friendly. If you've seen me around the animal threads, then you've seen how passionate I am about animals and often I can get pretty...warm.
Which is why I'll leave the new thread suggestion to Diuretic
because if I start it I know I will at some point become...warm...again. Sorry, Diuretic but it's a good thread idea.My take on this will be different from yours, Weinbeck, because I believe in (my) God but I am not christian and although some things in the bible do ring true for me, most do not apply to my beliefs. I say "my" God because I want to avoid anyone's comments that there is only one God, the Christian God, etc and I'll burn in hell if I don't believe.
Ok, that said....
I believe...know...as best I possibly can that animal have souls. Theoretically all things, even rocks, have energy so there's potential for a soul there but I am unsure about that when it comes to plants and rocks, etc, so I'll stick with the animals here. They are very like us in that they can feel, think, understand. Maybe they cannot reason or do algebra but they certainly feel pain, love, sadness, grief, boredom, anger. Cut them and they bleed their life source as do we. They have families...see the elephant who maintains matriarchal connections for life. See how they grieve when one dies or is killed. See how they hold vigil over the fallen animal.
The wolf, swan and some others mate for life. They love and grieve similar to us.
God made these living beings in my opinion, to add grace and benefit to the world. We do not have to kill them in modern society (unlike natives who use them for skin and food) but we still do. Domestic and even some wild creatures give us love, aid (see rescue/seeing eye dogs, ie) andcomfort as well as milk, butter, cheese, eggs, and flesh to eat and leather and fur "byproducts."
I don't subscribe to God gving us dominion in the respect of letting us kill. The bible says we are to steward the animals. That means protect and govern.
I don't feel in my heart and mind that God would make a living thing such as a human or other type of animal and not assign it a soul. That seems a waste. The blood is the life essence. The soul is the power, the energy that animates the body. It is life itself, immortal.
Plus if one believes in reincarnation, that assigns a whole new factor to animals and the soul.
Forgot to add: doesn't it say in the bible "eat not the animals or fish but the fruit on the trees" or something like that?
And no worries about becoming a veggie. I am happy to answer veggie questions or help someone become one if they ask but I used to eat meat myself. I just changed my ways is all. After all, you aren't going to make me a meat eater,so fair is fair.
<---that's another friendly smiley!Afore we start...
RedGlitter;496713 wrote: Hi Weinbeck,
I assure you I was not making fun of you in my first post, not in the least. The smiley was only there ironically, to make my post more friendly. If you've seen me around the animal threads, then you've seen how passionate I am about animals and often I can get pretty...warm.
Which is why I'll leave the new thread suggestion to Diuretic because if I start it I know I will at some point become...warm...again. Sorry, Diuretic but it's a good thread idea.
My take on this will be different from yours, Weinbeck, because I believe in (my) God but I am not christian and although some things in the bible do ring true for me, most do not apply to my beliefs. I say "my" God because I want to avoid anyone's comments that there is only one God, the Christian God, etc and I'll burn in hell if I don't believe.
Ok, that said....
I believe...know...as best I possibly can that animal have souls. Theoretically all things, even rocks, have energy so there's potential for a soul there but I am unsure about that when it comes to plants and rocks, etc, so I'll stick with the animals here. They are very like us in that they can feel, think, understand. Maybe they cannot reason or do algebra but they certainly feel pain, love, sadness, grief, boredom, anger. Cut them and they bleed their life source as do we. They have families...see the elephant who maintains matriarchal connections for life. See how they grieve when one dies or is killed. See how they hold vigil over the fallen animal.
The wolf, swan and some others mate for life. They love and grieve similar to us.
God made these living beings in my opinion, to add grace and benefit to the world. We do not have to kill them in modern society (unlike natives who use them for skin and food) but we still do. Domestic and even some wild creatures give us love, aid (see rescue/seeing eye dogs, ie) andcomfort as well as milk, butter, cheese, eggs, and flesh to eat and leather and fur "byproducts."
I don't subscribe to God gving us dominion in the respect of letting us kill. The bible says we are to steward the animals. That means protect and govern.
I don't feel in my heart and mind that God would make a living thing such as a human or other type of animal and not assign it a soul. That seems a waste. The blood is the life essence. The soul is the power, the energy that animates the body. It is life itself, immortal.
Plus if one believes in reincarnation, that assigns a whole new factor to animals and the soul.
Forgot to add: doesn't it say in the bible "eat not the animals or fish but the fruit on the trees" or something like that?
And no worries about becoming a veggie. I am happy to answer veggie questions or help someone become one if they ask but I used to eat meat myself. I just changed my ways is all. After all, you aren't going to make me a meat eater, so fair is fair.
Thank you for your reply. You did indeed raise some interesting points. I'm about to have a sandwich and a cup of tea, but believe me, I will get back to you in about an hour or so. Whether we agree or not is not important - what is important is that we discuss the issue in a sensible and level-headed manor, not like on some threads which I've pulled right out of because of the abuse. I openly admit I have far too much red meat which isn't particularly benefitial for my cholestrol, however I have read that there are certain essential vitamins only found in meats or oily fish. I can see myself eating less meat, but I cannot see myself cutting it out completely. See you in about an hour - yours, Weinbeck.
I assure you I was not making fun of you in my first post, not in the least. The smiley was only there ironically, to make my post more friendly. If you've seen me around the animal threads, then you've seen how passionate I am about animals and often I can get pretty...warm.
Which is why I'll leave the new thread suggestion to Diuretic
because if I start it I know I will at some point become...warm...again. Sorry, Diuretic but it's a good thread idea.My take on this will be different from yours, Weinbeck, because I believe in (my) God but I am not christian and although some things in the bible do ring true for me, most do not apply to my beliefs. I say "my" God because I want to avoid anyone's comments that there is only one God, the Christian God, etc and I'll burn in hell if I don't believe.
Ok, that said....
I believe...know...as best I possibly can that animal have souls. Theoretically all things, even rocks, have energy so there's potential for a soul there but I am unsure about that when it comes to plants and rocks, etc, so I'll stick with the animals here. They are very like us in that they can feel, think, understand. Maybe they cannot reason or do algebra but they certainly feel pain, love, sadness, grief, boredom, anger. Cut them and they bleed their life source as do we. They have families...see the elephant who maintains matriarchal connections for life. See how they grieve when one dies or is killed. See how they hold vigil over the fallen animal.
The wolf, swan and some others mate for life. They love and grieve similar to us.
God made these living beings in my opinion, to add grace and benefit to the world. We do not have to kill them in modern society (unlike natives who use them for skin and food) but we still do. Domestic and even some wild creatures give us love, aid (see rescue/seeing eye dogs, ie) andcomfort as well as milk, butter, cheese, eggs, and flesh to eat and leather and fur "byproducts."
I don't subscribe to God gving us dominion in the respect of letting us kill. The bible says we are to steward the animals. That means protect and govern.
I don't feel in my heart and mind that God would make a living thing such as a human or other type of animal and not assign it a soul. That seems a waste. The blood is the life essence. The soul is the power, the energy that animates the body. It is life itself, immortal.
Plus if one believes in reincarnation, that assigns a whole new factor to animals and the soul.
Forgot to add: doesn't it say in the bible "eat not the animals or fish but the fruit on the trees" or something like that?
And no worries about becoming a veggie. I am happy to answer veggie questions or help someone become one if they ask but I used to eat meat myself. I just changed my ways is all. After all, you aren't going to make me a meat eater, so fair is fair.
Thank you for your reply. You did indeed raise some interesting points. I'm about to have a sandwich and a cup of tea, but believe me, I will get back to you in about an hour or so. Whether we agree or not is not important - what is important is that we discuss the issue in a sensible and level-headed manor, not like on some threads which I've pulled right out of because of the abuse. I openly admit I have far too much red meat which isn't particularly benefitial for my cholestrol, however I have read that there are certain essential vitamins only found in meats or oily fish. I can see myself eating less meat, but I cannot see myself cutting it out completely. See you in about an hour - yours, Weinbeck.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Afore we start...
I look forward to seeing you back again, Weinbeck.
I am curious about what you said about nutrients...? I was told we could get all our vitamins and protein from beans and veggies, etc but I'm not sure about the omega 3 in fish. Is that only in fish? I see supplements of it but I don't know if there is a vegetarian option.
Thank you for replying to me so nicely. I would never joke about you or anybody offering Grace. I think that is a fine thing to do and do it myself from time to time. I'm sorry you took my comment that way and I truly meant no offense. See you when you get back!
I am curious about what you said about nutrients...? I was told we could get all our vitamins and protein from beans and veggies, etc but I'm not sure about the omega 3 in fish. Is that only in fish? I see supplements of it but I don't know if there is a vegetarian option.
Thank you for replying to me so nicely. I would never joke about you or anybody offering Grace. I think that is a fine thing to do and do it myself from time to time. I'm sorry you took my comment that way and I truly meant no offense. See you when you get back!
Afore we start...
Diuretic;496626 wrote: RG - methinks there's a couple of really interesting questions in there that are worthy of a thread if you were so inclined to start one.
Come on in Diuretic - the thread has started. The big questions
a.) Do animals have souls in the same way that the Christian faith hinges on their souls gaining entry into Heaven i.e. are we likely to meet up with Tiddles or Fifi? and
b.)If this is your belief, what are the moral implications of being a carnivore?
c.) Is there a strong moral/ethical call for people to become vegetarians?
d.) If animals do indeed have souls as such, are we not, in fact, just one rung up from cannibalism?
All views welcomed, so long as they are not malicious.
Come on in Diuretic - the thread has started. The big questions
a.) Do animals have souls in the same way that the Christian faith hinges on their souls gaining entry into Heaven i.e. are we likely to meet up with Tiddles or Fifi? and
b.)If this is your belief, what are the moral implications of being a carnivore?
c.) Is there a strong moral/ethical call for people to become vegetarians?
d.) If animals do indeed have souls as such, are we not, in fact, just one rung up from cannibalism?
All views welcomed, so long as they are not malicious.
Afore we start...
RedGlitter;496828 wrote: I look forward to seeing you back again, Weinbeck.
I am curious about what you said about nutrients...? I was told we could get all our vitamins and protein from beans and veggies, etc but I'm not sure about the omega 3 in fish. Is that only in fish? I see supplements of it but I don't know if there is a vegetarian option.
Thank you for replying to me so nicely. I would never joke about you or anybody offering Grace. I think that is a fine thing to do and do it myself from time to time. I'm sorry you took my comment that way and I truly meant no offense. See you when you get back!
Great to hear from you again. Sorry I never got back. By my calculations it's somewhere around 6.00pm or maybe a bit earlier, depending on where you're based. Over here, it's heading for midnight, and I was up at 4.00am, so I'm turning in! I took Holy Communion last night (Midnight Mass) so I didn't get home until 1.00am this morning - I reckon I've had about three and a half hours sleep. Lol! Christmas Day seems to have gone on forever:) I'll contact you tomorrow.
I am curious about what you said about nutrients...? I was told we could get all our vitamins and protein from beans and veggies, etc but I'm not sure about the omega 3 in fish. Is that only in fish? I see supplements of it but I don't know if there is a vegetarian option.
Thank you for replying to me so nicely. I would never joke about you or anybody offering Grace. I think that is a fine thing to do and do it myself from time to time. I'm sorry you took my comment that way and I truly meant no offense. See you when you get back!
Great to hear from you again. Sorry I never got back. By my calculations it's somewhere around 6.00pm or maybe a bit earlier, depending on where you're based. Over here, it's heading for midnight, and I was up at 4.00am, so I'm turning in! I took Holy Communion last night (Midnight Mass) so I didn't get home until 1.00am this morning - I reckon I've had about three and a half hours sleep. Lol! Christmas Day seems to have gone on forever:) I'll contact you tomorrow.
Afore we start...
RedGlitter;496828 wrote: I look forward to seeing you back again, Weinbeck.
I am curious about what you said about nutrients...? I was told we could get all our vitamins and protein from beans and veggies, etc but I'm not sure about the omega 3 in fish. Is that only in fish? I see supplements of it but I don't know if there is a vegetarian option.
Thank you for replying to me so nicely. I would never joke about you or anybody offering Grace. I think that is a fine thing to do and do it myself from time to time. I'm sorry you took my comment that way and I truly meant no offense. See you when you get back!
OK - I'm back. I finally caught up with my sleep - nine hours solid, but I must have needed it.
I can see from your reply posted to somebody else you are very much a "doggie" person. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, providing you live on a ranch or have very understanding neighbours! Our neighbours had six highly-strung dogs that were locked in the house all day, and you'd hear them continuously scrapping and yelping throughout the day, until the owners decided to come home, usually half-cut after the pubs shut:"My dogs bark? Never! They're as good as gold." It was an absolute nightmare trying to sell the house. As soon as any potential customers wanted to view the garden, up they'd all start in unision. Viewing had to be arranged to coincide with when the owners decided to take their dogs for a walk - usually just once a week. Don't get me wrong - I've had dogs myself, but they have to be well exercised and under proper control. Sorry for digressing.
Now - about it being wrong to eat animals, birds and fish because they have souls Hmmm, yes, well...Like I said, it depends on what constitutes a soul. I take up my case in the Book of Genesis, chapter nine, beginning at verse one:
"So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to him,"Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. (Italic mine). I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with it's life, that is, its blood."
"...the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on everybeast..." et al. This readind is taken from the Revised New King James Version, so the wording may be slightly different from your bible. However, it is clearing saying man has been given dominion ove all other creatures. Animals fearing man? It might be in black and white, but I wouldn't reckon much on my chances against a fully grown tiger on it's home territory!
"...they are given into your hands." Absolutely. It is our responsibility for care and look after God's world - I couldn't agree more - each year I collect about 150 acorns and chestnuts from the woods, plant them in drink despenser cups and keep them in the shed protected from the frost, and then plant them back into the woods every spring - my way of putting back into the world just a little of what I take out.
"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you." Not my words - it's there in black and white.
Even Jesus helped the fishermen to pull in a large haul after an unsuccessful night on the lake. And didn't He actually ask for fish after his resurrection? He obviously wasn't a vegetarian! Lol!
"But you shall not eat the flesh with it's life. That is, it's blood" Contradictory on the face of it, THIS COULD WELL BE YOUR BEST DEFENCE defence!:) .
"You shall net eat the flesh with it's life that is, it's blood:( . That's thrown me. Hmmm. It's own blood - cannabalism? Or maybe avoid consuming the blood of a freshly killed creature, which would explain the Jewish custom of thoroughly rinsing out a fresh chicken before the cook it... I don't know.
Praying for the soul of a dead creature? Where do you draw the line? Every time we clean our teeth or have a bath we are killing zillions of germs, and yet a germ has life, if only for twenty seconds on average.
I don't know where you eat fruit not fish comes from - I have an electronic reference bible but the batteries are flat, but no doubt I'd be ablye to find it if I looked for it.
In conclusion I admire and respect your views on vegetarianism - after all, the greatest of all creatures, an elephant, is a vegetarian. (It also happens to be the ONLY creature with four knees, which explains why it cannot jump) I firmly believe we have both a moral and God-given responsibility to look after this earth. For my own health I shall endevour to cut down on my meat intake, but I doubt very much whether I could cut it out altogether. One thing I am glad is that yo are not fanatical about your beliefs. People like Linda Mcartney who ran round screaming "SLICED MURDER!" everytome they saw a rasher of bacon did the vegetarian fraternity a grave disservice, because the general public then dismissed them a cranks, which they are not.
Reply at your leisure. Yours, Weinbeck.
I am curious about what you said about nutrients...? I was told we could get all our vitamins and protein from beans and veggies, etc but I'm not sure about the omega 3 in fish. Is that only in fish? I see supplements of it but I don't know if there is a vegetarian option.
Thank you for replying to me so nicely. I would never joke about you or anybody offering Grace. I think that is a fine thing to do and do it myself from time to time. I'm sorry you took my comment that way and I truly meant no offense. See you when you get back!
OK - I'm back. I finally caught up with my sleep - nine hours solid, but I must have needed it.
I can see from your reply posted to somebody else you are very much a "doggie" person. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, providing you live on a ranch or have very understanding neighbours! Our neighbours had six highly-strung dogs that were locked in the house all day, and you'd hear them continuously scrapping and yelping throughout the day, until the owners decided to come home, usually half-cut after the pubs shut:"My dogs bark? Never! They're as good as gold." It was an absolute nightmare trying to sell the house. As soon as any potential customers wanted to view the garden, up they'd all start in unision. Viewing had to be arranged to coincide with when the owners decided to take their dogs for a walk - usually just once a week. Don't get me wrong - I've had dogs myself, but they have to be well exercised and under proper control. Sorry for digressing.
Now - about it being wrong to eat animals, birds and fish because they have souls Hmmm, yes, well...Like I said, it depends on what constitutes a soul. I take up my case in the Book of Genesis, chapter nine, beginning at verse one:
"So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to him,"Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. (Italic mine). I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with it's life, that is, its blood."
"...the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on everybeast..." et al. This readind is taken from the Revised New King James Version, so the wording may be slightly different from your bible. However, it is clearing saying man has been given dominion ove all other creatures. Animals fearing man? It might be in black and white, but I wouldn't reckon much on my chances against a fully grown tiger on it's home territory!
"...they are given into your hands." Absolutely. It is our responsibility for care and look after God's world - I couldn't agree more - each year I collect about 150 acorns and chestnuts from the woods, plant them in drink despenser cups and keep them in the shed protected from the frost, and then plant them back into the woods every spring - my way of putting back into the world just a little of what I take out.
"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you." Not my words - it's there in black and white.
Even Jesus helped the fishermen to pull in a large haul after an unsuccessful night on the lake. And didn't He actually ask for fish after his resurrection? He obviously wasn't a vegetarian! Lol!
"But you shall not eat the flesh with it's life. That is, it's blood" Contradictory on the face of it, THIS COULD WELL BE YOUR BEST DEFENCE defence!:) .
"You shall net eat the flesh with it's life that is, it's blood:( . That's thrown me. Hmmm. It's own blood - cannabalism? Or maybe avoid consuming the blood of a freshly killed creature, which would explain the Jewish custom of thoroughly rinsing out a fresh chicken before the cook it... I don't know.
Praying for the soul of a dead creature? Where do you draw the line? Every time we clean our teeth or have a bath we are killing zillions of germs, and yet a germ has life, if only for twenty seconds on average.
I don't know where you eat fruit not fish comes from - I have an electronic reference bible but the batteries are flat, but no doubt I'd be ablye to find it if I looked for it.
In conclusion I admire and respect your views on vegetarianism - after all, the greatest of all creatures, an elephant, is a vegetarian. (It also happens to be the ONLY creature with four knees, which explains why it cannot jump) I firmly believe we have both a moral and God-given responsibility to look after this earth. For my own health I shall endevour to cut down on my meat intake, but I doubt very much whether I could cut it out altogether. One thing I am glad is that yo are not fanatical about your beliefs. People like Linda Mcartney who ran round screaming "SLICED MURDER!" everytome they saw a rasher of bacon did the vegetarian fraternity a grave disservice, because the general public then dismissed them a cranks, which they are not.
Reply at your leisure. Yours, Weinbeck.
Afore we start...
What a neat discussion.
I am not a vegetarian though I have cut down on my consumption of red meat by about 66%.
I do know that the First Nations here in Canada and the US honour the animals they kill for food. They do this in various ways through prayer or in the case of salmon they return the bones of the fish to the stream from which they came in order to return the fish to its home. I have a great deal of respect for this.
It seems, to me at any rate, that the first nations lived in an almost oneness with nature. They thanked the bear for its skin for shelter or clothing and its meat for food. In addition they thanked the Creator for all things. They had a very profound reverence for all of nature.
Do animals have souls? I cannot say yes but I cannot say no. I leave that up to God.
With reference to Genesis, Bishop Spong has written an excellent book titles "Sins of the Scriptures" in which he addresses these and many other points in the Bible that have been harmful to man and the earth, not in the least helpful.
I understand, like Weinbeck that there are certain necessary nutrients that are hard to come by other than eating meat.
One thing I do enjoy once in awhile is a good charbroiled steak. Turkey later today sounds good as well.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I am not a vegetarian though I have cut down on my consumption of red meat by about 66%.
I do know that the First Nations here in Canada and the US honour the animals they kill for food. They do this in various ways through prayer or in the case of salmon they return the bones of the fish to the stream from which they came in order to return the fish to its home. I have a great deal of respect for this.
It seems, to me at any rate, that the first nations lived in an almost oneness with nature. They thanked the bear for its skin for shelter or clothing and its meat for food. In addition they thanked the Creator for all things. They had a very profound reverence for all of nature.
Do animals have souls? I cannot say yes but I cannot say no. I leave that up to God.
With reference to Genesis, Bishop Spong has written an excellent book titles "Sins of the Scriptures" in which he addresses these and many other points in the Bible that have been harmful to man and the earth, not in the least helpful.
I understand, like Weinbeck that there are certain necessary nutrients that are hard to come by other than eating meat.
One thing I do enjoy once in awhile is a good charbroiled steak. Turkey later today sounds good as well.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Afore we start...
I am also not a vegeterian... This is a VERY interesting thread, and Red Glitter gives me much to think about. I go through phases with meat eating. I do not eat much red meat. I totally gave it up two years ago when my cholesterol number came back high. I have also recently discovered that it contains something that cause pain in my joints. I do however seriously crave a steak now and then. Less often since I have been taking B vitamins. As far as the information regarding animals having souls... I do believe that is true and if I held Reds outlook in front of my mind, I would feel very guilty about eating anything that had to be killed for me to eat it. Having done a lot of reading because of the issue with the painful inflamation of my joint, I have to say that for optimum heath.... all arrows point in the direction of a completely vegeterian diet. As far as humbly giving thanks goes..... no harm in that ever for any reason. Again Red I relate to your comment about your " own" God. I have my own as well. Talk to this entity reguarly.. do not subscribe to the doctrine of any man made religion. Totally respect the rights of others to believe whatever they choose, and expect that they refrain from trying to recruit me into their churches or religions. It is ignorant to ever presume to know how evolved anyone is spiritually... the exception for me being coming across anyone who is blatently evil by nature.
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Afore we start...
Ted;497414 wrote: What a neat discussion.
I am not a vegetarian though I have cut down on my consumption of red meat by about 66%.
I do know that the First Nations here in Canada and the US honour the animals they kill for food. They do this in various ways through prayer or in the case of salmon they return the bones of the fish to the stream from which they came in order to return the fish to its home. I have a great deal of respect for this.
It seems, to me at any rate, that the first nations lived in an almost oneness with nature. They thanked the bear for its skin for shelter or clothing and its meat for food. In addition they thanked the Creator for all things. They had a very profound reverence for all of nature.
Do animals have souls? I cannot say yes but I cannot say no. I leave that up to God.
With reference to Genesis, Bishop Spong has written an excellent book titles "Sins of the Scriptures" in which he addresses these and many other points in the Bible that have been harmful to man and the earth, not in the least helpful.
I understand, like Weinbeck that there are certain necessary nutrients that are hard to come by other than eating meat.
One thing I do enjoy once in awhile is a good charbroiled steak. Turkey later today sounds good as well.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thank you, Ted, for your valued contribution. As you can see, it is quite possible to disagree on certain issues and still keep it civil. I haven't read any of Bishop Spong's works, so I am not in a position to comment on then. Weeder pointed out that apart from his cholestrol going too high (as a diabetic I know all about that), it apparently gave him problems with his joints. My left hip and left knee are playing me up sufficiently for me to have to wear an elasticated bandage on my knee sometimes, although I don't like doing it because I feel in the end your body gets too used to the extra support, and is actually weakened, but I didn't realise this was allied to red meat. As I told RedGlitter, I'm unlikely to cut it out altogether, but I will certainly cut down on it, now that I know joint pains are allied to red meat.
Regards to whether or not animals or living creature have souls, as I mentioned earlier, I feel it's down to interperetation. A germ has a life.
I derive no pleasure in the taking of any life - that is why I do NOT belong to the World Wildlife Fund when its patron, Prince Phillip goes out shooting pheasant, a truly magnifficent bird, just for the pleasure of blasting it out of the sky. I have a real bee in my bonnet about hyprocasy.
Again, both you and Weeder, my thanks to your contributions.
I am not a vegetarian though I have cut down on my consumption of red meat by about 66%.
I do know that the First Nations here in Canada and the US honour the animals they kill for food. They do this in various ways through prayer or in the case of salmon they return the bones of the fish to the stream from which they came in order to return the fish to its home. I have a great deal of respect for this.
It seems, to me at any rate, that the first nations lived in an almost oneness with nature. They thanked the bear for its skin for shelter or clothing and its meat for food. In addition they thanked the Creator for all things. They had a very profound reverence for all of nature.
Do animals have souls? I cannot say yes but I cannot say no. I leave that up to God.
With reference to Genesis, Bishop Spong has written an excellent book titles "Sins of the Scriptures" in which he addresses these and many other points in the Bible that have been harmful to man and the earth, not in the least helpful.
I understand, like Weinbeck that there are certain necessary nutrients that are hard to come by other than eating meat.
One thing I do enjoy once in awhile is a good charbroiled steak. Turkey later today sounds good as well.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thank you, Ted, for your valued contribution. As you can see, it is quite possible to disagree on certain issues and still keep it civil. I haven't read any of Bishop Spong's works, so I am not in a position to comment on then. Weeder pointed out that apart from his cholestrol going too high (as a diabetic I know all about that), it apparently gave him problems with his joints. My left hip and left knee are playing me up sufficiently for me to have to wear an elasticated bandage on my knee sometimes, although I don't like doing it because I feel in the end your body gets too used to the extra support, and is actually weakened, but I didn't realise this was allied to red meat. As I told RedGlitter, I'm unlikely to cut it out altogether, but I will certainly cut down on it, now that I know joint pains are allied to red meat.
Regards to whether or not animals or living creature have souls, as I mentioned earlier, I feel it's down to interperetation. A germ has a life.
I derive no pleasure in the taking of any life - that is why I do NOT belong to the World Wildlife Fund when its patron, Prince Phillip goes out shooting pheasant, a truly magnifficent bird, just for the pleasure of blasting it out of the sky. I have a real bee in my bonnet about hyprocasy.
Again, both you and Weeder, my thanks to your contributions.
Afore we start...
weinbeck;497463 wrote: Thank you, Ted, for your valued contribution. As you can see, it is quite possible to disagree on certain issues and still keep it civil. I haven't read any of Bishop Spong's works, so I am not in a position to comment on then. Weeder pointed out that apart from his cholestrol going too high (as a diabetic I know all about that), it apparently gave him problems with his joints. My left hip and left knee are playing me up sufficiently for me to have to wear an elasticated bandage on my knee sometimes, although I don't like doing it because I feel in the end your body gets too used to the extra support, and is actually weakened, but I didn't realise this was allied to red meat. As I told RedGlitter, I'm unlikely to cut it out altogether, but I will certainly cut down on it, now that I know joint pains are allied to red meat.
Regards to whether or not animals or living creature have souls, as I mentioned earlier, I feel it's down to interperetation. A germ has a life.
I derive no pleasure in the taking of any life - that is why I do NOT belong to the World Wildlife Fund when its patron, Prince Phillip goes out shooting pheasant, a truly magnifficent bird, just for the pleasure of blasting it out of the sky. I have a real bee in my bonnet about hyprocasy.
Again, both you and Weeder, my thanks to your contributions.
Weinbeck... Punch arthritis into goggle. You will find a list of foods that cause joint inflamation and pain. Red Meat, Sugar, White potatoes and Alcohol are all top of the list. You might also do a little research into vitamins you may be missing. Smoking causes atrophy of nerve ending, which cause poor circulation, which causes joint pain. ( I smoke) I am by the way, a female. ( Just thought Id give a little color to my profile for you) And on that note.. Our endocrine system.... one of the least understood areas of human physiology.... also contributes to joint pain. Our endocrine system changes drastically as we age. Male and female alike. Although they dont like to hear it..... men can have symptoms similar to PMS. as their hormones fluctuate also. Hope you guys dont think Im going off topic.... but its kinda of all related and I can never pass up the opportunity to share anything Ive learned, with someone who might benefit from the information.
Regards to whether or not animals or living creature have souls, as I mentioned earlier, I feel it's down to interperetation. A germ has a life.
I derive no pleasure in the taking of any life - that is why I do NOT belong to the World Wildlife Fund when its patron, Prince Phillip goes out shooting pheasant, a truly magnifficent bird, just for the pleasure of blasting it out of the sky. I have a real bee in my bonnet about hyprocasy.
Again, both you and Weeder, my thanks to your contributions.
Weinbeck... Punch arthritis into goggle. You will find a list of foods that cause joint inflamation and pain. Red Meat, Sugar, White potatoes and Alcohol are all top of the list. You might also do a little research into vitamins you may be missing. Smoking causes atrophy of nerve ending, which cause poor circulation, which causes joint pain. ( I smoke) I am by the way, a female. ( Just thought Id give a little color to my profile for you) And on that note.. Our endocrine system.... one of the least understood areas of human physiology.... also contributes to joint pain. Our endocrine system changes drastically as we age. Male and female alike. Although they dont like to hear it..... men can have symptoms similar to PMS. as their hormones fluctuate also. Hope you guys dont think Im going off topic.... but its kinda of all related and I can never pass up the opportunity to share anything Ive learned, with someone who might benefit from the information.
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Afore we start...
weeder:-6
It is called andropaus.
Shalom
Ted:-6 .
It is called andropaus.
Shalom
Ted:-6 .
Afore we start...
Is that the male version of menopause??? Your not kidding me, are you?
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Afore we start...
Weeder:-6
That is what it is called. No kidding. Google it if you like.
Don't know about the "e" on the end. I've seen it spelled both ways.
Shalom
Ted:-6
That is what it is called. No kidding. Google it if you like.
Don't know about the "e" on the end. I've seen it spelled both ways.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Afore we start...
Well... Blow me down!!! Id like to mail that diagnosis to a # of doubting Thomases that Ive known. I probably wouldnt though because it would totally destroy their male egos. I am going to read about it. Thank You Ted.
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