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When I first saw that, I loved it. It made me proud. But the constant tearing down of my nation and its pride by those of other countries since has worn my appreciation for those countries thin and threadbare.

But I'm still proud, the piece is still blatantly true and I'd defy anyone to deny it.

See what I mean?

I like that ode, and I think its important that people who ascribe to the ideas of liberal democracy, progress, rationalism, and political, economic and religious freedom should think hard about what what the ideas that the American republic were founded on represent, and how successful the application of these principals has been in that great nation, (despite all the undoubted negative influences that exist in the United States (as in all nations) and in particularly their influence on the regeneration of Europe toward the nobler ideas of decency and tolerance since the second world war, we in the west live in an infinitely better place (for our own citizens) because of the success of the American republic in sustaining the ideas of the enlightenment, as was the intention of its founders, most importantly Thomas Jefferson.

I would also say that the English people (despite the moral questions of empire) are owed far more recognition than is fashionable to give them for their dissemination of the ideas of societies ruled by consent and agreed law based at least as much on ideas of secular humanism as other narrow English nationalist interests, and the use of rationalism, capitalism and science to improve the human condition (and hence the creation of what is taken for granted now as the core values of modernism. The French too, through their revolution and their philosophy of equality, liberty, and fraternery (unfortunately via a terror unprecedented at the time, yet it was the philosophy that survived, not the methods) have been instrumental in the creation of a world view in the western nations that while not always living up to its own ideas, has done more than any other civilization to promote the idea of human freedom and dignity. There are many other western nations to whom our modern debt is huge, of course the Italian city states of the renaissance, the Dutch, and the Scots with their great enlightenment thinkers, all have contributed enormously to the freedoms we all now enjoy. And take for granted so much that we almost believe now that these ideas are a default human position, that is untrue, they may be a widespread human desire, but in practice they have been rare in human history.

Of course there are hypocrisies contained within this, many of the men who designed the constitution of the US held attitudes that we would now find unacceptable, as were many of the actions of the French and British in the creation of their world empires, its is worth noting that the fount of the inspiration of these ideas in our culture was the philosophies that became popular in ancient Greece, notably the Athenian republic, which also promulgated slavery and xenophobia, but yet, it was the noble ideas that survived not the base ones, these are the ideals we aspire toward (well, most of us), but they often are not realized, but at least the ideas exist and in many cases have been brought to some kind of political reality, (however imperfectly).

Of course there are major, major qualifications in all of this eulogy, I am not an uncritical admirer of the US or the west in general, and being western I am partisan, but yet, I know of know other civilization or group of nations that has provided so many people so much individual freedom from political or religious tyranny at any other point in history. This does not in any way excuse the evils that our societies have perpetrated on their own people, and on others, but on balance I would still have more hope for western civilization that most people give it credit for. The way I see it now, our greatest danger is that we forget the priceless nature of the freedom we enjoy, and the rise of militant religiosity and absolutism and the retreat from rationality in the world once more and how that threatens us, both from without and within our region of the world. Specifically in the US, there is a great danger at present that the dangers from Islamic political militancy, and those within the US itself that wish to turn America into some sort of intolerant Christian theocracy, or economic oligarchy (BTW completely counter to the spirit of that country's foundation) that most threatens the continuation of maintaining the goal of providing as many people, with as much political, religious, and intellectual freedom as practically possible. Thats an ideal worth cherishing, and we should never forget it.

In short, I am a humanist, a secularist, and someone who retains faith in the progressive agenda, decency and tolerance and I honestly believe that the U.S. has been the anchor and great economic and military power that over the last 10 decades that has ensured that those ideas have survived the dark 20th century. It is my hope that the American people do not retreat from these ideas and retreat from the world, as I believe that would be a profound human and political disaster.

RedGlitter;657756 wrote: But I'm still proud, the piece is still blatantly true and I'd defy anyone to deny it.And I have no doubt that you believe it is. It's baffling that people can say black's white.

Part of the fun of someone writing a parody like the one quoted is that Americans consistently fail to see what it says. Feel the words, they say. Cloying sentiment should have no connection to reality and we get more of a glow if it isn't.

I thought the whole point of the melting pot was that Americans weren't English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish, Polish, Russian or Greek, or Canadian, Mexican, African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or Arab, or Pakistani or Afghan any longer. Isn't that what it's about, being American?

How can you possibly claim it's written as a parody, I hear you ask in scandalized tones? Does nobody see the clues? Like "In fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan"? That's a little joke about Americans not having much of a clue about the rest of the planet. There's over 30 million Muslims in Afghanistan. I'm trying to imagine an America where over a tenth of the population is Muslim but I'm having a hard time of it. Good joke though.

And the bit about "Americans have helped out just about every other nation in the world in their time of need, never asking a thing in return. When Afghanistan was over-run by the Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to enable the people to win back their country!"? Take it from me, the author of the piece is not even close to keeping a straight face here. By the time he gets to "The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless, tempest tossed" he's completely outed himself. One person in twenty living permanently in the USA has no citizenship or right of residency. Where did the welcome disappear? "Everyone who holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American", apparently. Just don't ask for a work permit.

RedGlitter;657756 wrote: the constant tearing down of my nation and its pride by those of other countries since has worn my appreciation for those countries thin and threadbare.That'll be why the piece is headed "Written by an Australian", of course. To give the impression that there's some measure of independent support or admiration from outside your self-enclosed fortress.

Would you like to know who actually wrote the words? As opposed to the fictional "Australian Dentist"? Here's the chap.Peter Ferrara, a "senior policy adviser" at the conservative Institute for Policy Innovation, admitted that he "took money" from Jack Abramoff "to write op-ed pieces boosting the lobbyist's clients. 'I do that all the time,' Ferrara [said]. 'I've done that in the past, and I'll do it in the future'," Eamon Javers reported December 16, 2005, in Business Week. Ferrara said "he doesn't see a conflict of interest in taking undisclosed money to write op-ed pieces because his columns never violated his ideological principles."

"Ferrara wouldn't say which publications have published pieces for which Abramoff paid him," Javers wrote. "But a review of his work shows that he wrote articles for The Washington Times that were favorable to the Choctaw Indians and the Mariana Islands. He also wrote a 1998 book called The Choctaw Revolution: Lessons for Federal Indian Policy. Ferrara says the tribe paid him directly for his work on the book, which was published by the Americans for Tax Reform Foundation and is still available for sale on Amazon.com."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?ti ... J._Ferrara

"Australian Dentist" sounds so much more inspiring that a self-serving lobby apologist, after all.

Regardless, I still think it's a good piece.

I suppose I would though, being an ignorant and selfserving American. :rolleyes:

RedGlitter;657886 wrote: Regardless, I still think it's a good piece.

I suppose I would though, being an ignorant and selfserving American. :rolleyes:


No, the self-serving American is the lobbyist who wrote the propaganda. You're just the victim.



Would you buy a used car from this man?

And who, anywhere on earth, could think there were really ever 30 million American Muslims???

I think rather than count the Muslims, the intended spirit of the piece is what is important. I don't think t here's anything wrong with that. It's not about chestbeating, it's just about pride.

RedGlitter;657895 wrote: I think rather than count the Muslims, the intended spirit of the piece is what is important. I don't think t here's anything wrong with that. It's not about chestbeating, it's just about pride.


And not even "one person in twenty living permanently in the USA has no citizenship or right of residency" sounds a jarring note to this haze of perfection? Patriotism shouldn't require the wearing of blinkers. You're not even slightly embarrassed that the American public is sending millions of copies of this "Australian Dentist's" syrup to each other, and it's actually written by a guy whose living involves swaying US voters' opinions? It should have every hair on your spine bristling with anger.

It doesn't, Spot.

It doesn't anger me at all.

I never said the US was perfect. But I'm not ashamed of it. And this writing doesn't make me so either.

RedGlitter;657907 wrote: It doesn't, Spot.

It doesn't anger me at all.

I never said the US was perfect. But I'm not ashamed of it. And this writing doesn't make me so either.So Stephen Decatur's toast still echoes down the years. "Our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, our country!". Patriotism is such a bust. It's an excuse to ignore what's wrong.

Tell me, is the average American seriously proud of having armed and funded the Taliban to such an extent that the Taliban got control of Afghanistan as a result? That's what "Australian Dentist" claims. You'd imagine it would give any rational American cause to think rather than to rejoice. Is cause and effect entirely unknown over there, as a concept?

See, this is the thing I keep seeing. A non American (and I use that term because how else can I describe who I'm talking about?) will pick any given negative thing and say "But look! You have this in America! Your country sucks! Your patriotism blinds you!"

Blindness is bad.

Blind patriotism is bad.

Patriotism is not bad.

As I keep saying, this is my home. I may admit it needs repairs, but I do not sh*t where I eat.

RedGlitter;657919 wrote: As I keep saying, this is my home. I may admit it needs repairs, but I do not sh*t where I eat.If you bit out the throats of the criminals who waylaid your government you might get back to owning a respectable country. Wallowing in the sentiment of lobbyists disguised as "Australian Dentist" is just lazy and cheap.

Okay Spot, let's try a new angle here.

What would you (or anyone else in the thread) have the US do to become a "respectable country?" What would you have us do before permitting us to take pride in our home?

And please be more specific- biting the throats out of people doesn't really nail it down. I'd seriously like a list if possible.

RedGlitter;657936 wrote: Okay Spot, let's try a new angle here.

What would you (or anyone else in the thread) have the US do to become a "respectable country?" What would you have us do before permitting us to take pride in our home?

And please be more specific- biting the throats out of people doesn't really nail it down. I'd seriously like a list if possible.
I can do lists. Here's a list.

Close your borders to everyone who has no valid permit to enter the Homeland. No more porosity, okay? Sealed borders all round.

Keep track of every non-citizen within the Homeland sufficiently that you can and do expel anyone the day their permission to be on US soil runs out, if they've not left on time.

Does that bring us to the point where you have no illegal immigrants any longer? Good. About time.

Expel the United Nations Headquarters from New York and tell them to meet where they're more welcome, resigning as you do it.

Instantly, immediately and permanently close down every cent of foreign aid, foreign loans and foreign discounts.

Station every member of the US Armed Services within the Homeland's borders or (if they float) offshore territorial waters and train them in protecting their country from attack. It's what they're paid to do.

That, I think, would bring you respect and justify a measure of pride.

spot;657945 wrote: I can do lists. Here's a list.



Close your borders to everyone who has no valid permit to enter the Homeland. No more porosity, okay? Sealed borders all round.



Keep track of every non-citizen within the Homeland sufficiently that you can and do expel anyone the day their permission to be on US soil runs out, if they've not left on time.



Does that bring us to the point where you have no illegal immigrants any longer? Good. About time.



Expel the United Nations Headquarters from New York and tell them to meet where they're more welcome, resigning as you do it.



Instantly, immediately and permanently close down every cent of foreign aid, foreign loans and foreign discounts.



Station every member of the US Armed Services within the Homeland's borders or (if they float) offshore territorial waters and train them in protecting their country from attack. It's what they're paid to do.



That, I think, would bring you respect and justify a measure of pride.


I can't disagree with any of this.

Okay that's a fair list to start with....I don't disagree with any but at this point I question a few things.... I will point those out.....

spot;657945 wrote: I can do lists. Here's a list.

Close your borders to everyone who has no valid permit to enter the Homeland. No more porosity, okay? Sealed borders all round.

Keep track of every non-citizen within the Homeland sufficiently that you can and do expel anyone the day their permission to be on US soil runs out, if they've not left on time.

Does that bring us to the point where you have no illegal immigrants any longer? Good. About time.

Expel the United Nations Headquarters from New York and tell them to meet where they're more welcome, resigning as you do it.



Not sure about this...why would we want to do this?

Instantly, immediately and permanently close down every cent of foreign aid, foreign loans and foreign discounts.

So this must also mean we can stop feeding other countries and fixing their deformed children and such?

Station every member of the US Armed Services within the Homeland's borders or (if they float) offshore territorial waters and train them in protecting their country from attack. It's what they're paid to do.



That's fine but are you implying by that that we should stop fighting in other countries? Shall we stop being an ally then?

That, I think, would bring you respect and justify a measure of pride.

spot;657945 wrote: I can do lists. Here's a list.

Close your borders to everyone who has no valid permit to enter the Homeland. No more porosity, okay? Sealed borders all round.

Keep track of every non-citizen within the Homeland sufficiently that you can and do expel anyone the day their permission to be on US soil runs out, if they've not left on time.

Does that bring us to the point where you have no illegal immigrants any longer? Good. About time.

Expel the United Nations Headquarters from New York and tell them to meet where they're more welcome, resigning as you do it.

Instantly, immediately and permanently close down every cent of foreign aid, foreign loans and foreign discounts.

Station every member of the US Armed Services within the Homeland's borders or (if they float) offshore territorial waters and train them in protecting their country from attack. It's what they're paid to do.

That, I think, would bring you respect and justify a measure of pride.


Question!

We have lived in USA for nearly 4 years now, each year reapplying for our US Visa (hopefully next time it will be a green card). Due to ****-up at US Embassy in London and UK solicitors, our visas had expired 3 months before we tried to cross the border in Canada (to renew visas at US Embassy, Toronto). When we crossed the border, the Canadian Officals said that we would get deported when trying to return to US. We stated that we would have valid visas on our return. The reply was that, it did not matter because as far as they were concerned we had been staying illegally in USA for 3 months. After alot of begging, and pointing out we had a home in USA, pets to consider etc. The best the Canadain officials could do was offer us an extented travel visa in Canada.

So here's my question - official knew we were here, and knew our visas had expired why did they not come looking for us.

I thought they were very harsh on us (after all the application had been in process long before visa expired).

Also, is this any different in other countries and how?

RedGlitter;657951 wrote: Okay that's a fair list to start with....I don't disagree with any but at this point I question a few things.... I will point those out.....


Not sure about this...why would we want to do this? [Expel the United Nations etc]. Because the UN is an essentially anti-American institution which takes far more from the US than it ever gives back. Why should the US pay for its upkeep when it continually stabs its host in the back and despises the spirit of democracy which brought it into being in the first place.

So this must also mean we can stop feeding other countries and fixing their deformed children and such? Of course it does. Every cent, regardless of who it's for or why it's offered, whether it's government money or private benevolence. No more leaching of US resources into propping up the rest of the world. Charity begins at home. If the US must feed the hungry and heal the cripples, do it where the donors can at least see it happen.

That's fine but are you implying by that that we should stop fighting in other countries? Shall we stop being an ally then? Instantly. What have the so-called allies ever done for the US? It's all give and no take, the US is forever having to bail out incompetent states which haven't the backbone to stand on their own two feet.

I can't argue with that Spot. Even if I wanted to. I have long said it's time to stop policing the world when we have our own problems. But...in the interest of compassion, what's going to happen to a lot of hungry and sick people if we don't help them? Why should they have to suffer because we're too proud to help them? As much as I want American people to have top rate food and medical care, if we've an opportunity to help *anyone* should we deny them for not being American?

ThePheasant;657958 wrote: Question!As best I understand matters, the US will deport every non-citizen who commits a crime. It's a crime to have stayed on US soil without a valid visa. I don't see how they can do anything other than arrest you for deportation if you're within their jurisdiction. There is a court hearing at which you can plead extenuating circumstances, but I doubt whether you can get a remission of sins before such a hearing takes place.

Other countries may allow their officials more discretionary powers, or leave you in jail without habeas corpus until you rot, it depends on custom and useage.

Wanted to say I just completely read Galbally's post and I think it's excellent.

Regarding being here illegally, we once reported a family of about14 Mexican illegals to INS and were told "Well, it doesn't matter much, 14 more will just come back."

RedGlitter;657975 wrote: I can't argue with that Spot. Even if I wanted to. I have long said it's time to stop policing the world when we have our own problems. But...in the interest of compassion, what's going to happen to a lot of hungry and sick people if we don't help them? Why should they have to suffer because we're too proud to help them? As much as I want American people to have top rate food and medical care, if we've an opportunity to help *anyone* should we deny them for not being American?


Why else would they take responsibility for their own affairs if they can stay indefinitely dependent on your generosity? Cut the umbilical before it bleeds the US dry. No more collections for foreigners, it just relieves their own governments of the natural responsibility of care. The more you let go, the more local agencies will have to take hold. That can only be a good thing.

But *will* local agencies take hold?? They don't all have the funds. What about the humanitarian standpoint? Don't we have the obligation to aid them if they cannot help themselves?? As human beings?

RedGlitter;657985 wrote: But *will* local agencies take hold?? They don't all have the funds. What about the humanitarian standpoint? Don't we have the obligation to aid them if they cannot help themselves?? As human beings?


You've been doing it far too long. It's time for the rest of the world to pull its weight for once. By continuing to support the burden you're excusing other nations from doing what's right. In the long term interests of other potential donors you have a duty to close the gushing spigot of American altruism and redirect it to domestic needs. Nobody else, after all, has ever made donations toward American charitable needs.

But have we ever asked for donations? I hear so much rhetoric about the US being the "richest nation in the world" (I can't prove it either way) and yet we have poor and/or elderly people choosing between heating or groceries or medication. Nobody's helping them.

Spot, I cannot refute what you're saying. What I had expected was to hear a bunch of stuff about why we're a "bad" nation, but you turned it around and sounded like a friend/supporter of the US instead. I just cannot argue with your points because for the most part I agree.

RedGlitter;657996 wrote: But have we ever asked for donations? I hear so much rhetoric about the US being the "richest nation in the world" (I can't prove it either way) and yet we have poor and/or elderly people choosing between heating or groceries or medication. Nobody's helping them.

Spot, I cannot refute what you're saying. What I had expected was to hear a bunch of stuff about why we're a "bad" nation, but you turned it around and sounded like a friend/supporter of the US instead. I just cannot argue with your points because for the most part I agree.I'm sure that if all the aid currently pouring out of the US were directed toward those you mentioned then the US would gleam at the edges in no time. It's simple enough to achieve, a couple of bills through Congress and it's done. No public or private resources to be applied to philanthropic efforts beyond the borders of the Homeland. It would make a huge difference to what happens both inside the US and outside. Couple that to a new law prohibiting any legislation that subsidized or funded foreign governments or agencies with grants, loans or discounts and you'd have gone a long way toward what I'm suggesting.

spot;657976 wrote: As best I understand matters, the US will deport every non-citizen who commits a crime. It's a crime to have stayed on US soil without a valid visa. I don't see how they can do anything other than arrest you for deportation if you're within their jurisdiction. There is a court hearing at which you can plead extenuating circumstances, but I doubt whether you can get a remission of sins before such a hearing takes place.

Other countries may allow their officials more discretionary powers, or leave you in jail without habeas corpus until you rot, it depends on custom and useage.


:wah: Jeez, glad you weren't on border control that day. :wah:

Anyway we got visa and all is well - back on US soil :-4

Spot, I have always read your "American" posts as negative or anti American. After reading this thread I will be re thinking my attitude. You have made some very valid points and recommendations. Please quit confusing me like this.

YZGI;658040 wrote: Spot, I have always read your "American" posts as negative or anti American. After reading this thread I will be re thinking my attitude. You have made some very valid points and recommendations. Please quit confusing me like this.It expresses my opinion on those areas fairly and honestly. There's nothing there that I'd want to retract.

So... if I'm in favour of it... and you're in favour of it... who on earth's stopping it from happening?

spot;658049 wrote: It expresses my opinion on those areas fairly and honestly. There's nothing there that I'd want to retract.



So... if I'm in favour of it... and you're in favour of it... who on earth's stopping it from happening?
Obviously our politicians. You would then say "vote them out", I would reply, "We are trying too".



Now, do you have any other suggestions?

magenta flame;658042 wrote: Okay I'm sorry now because you'll not understand thatThey're the views most dentists hold themselves, presumably.

spot;657994 wrote: You've been doing it far too long. It's time for the rest of the world to pull its weight for once. By continuing to support the burden you're excusing other nations from doing what's right. In the long term interests of other potential donors you have a duty to close the gushing spigot of American altruism and redirect it to domestic needs. Nobody else, after all, has ever made donations toward American charitable needs.
Holy crap! Somebody's stolen Spot's password.



:D



Spot, you've cried foul many times when some - including I, I think - accused you of being against the US. This is the most clear statement of your case I've seen. :yh_clap



Back to the subject: I'm trying to figure out the motive for the politicians not doing these things you've suggested.

Accountable;658488 wrote: Back to the subject: I'm trying to figure out the motive for the politicians not doing these things you've suggested.
Presumably they feel vulnerable to a pro-Zionist protest vote. (is that a PC description, these days? Zionist? I'm never quite sure. I'm using a technical term).

spot;658504 wrote: Presumably they feel vulnerable to a pro-Zionist protest vote. (is that a PC description, these days? Zionist? I'm never quite sure. I'm using a technical term).
I wouldn't recognize a Zionist if he hit me with a matza ball. I have a feeling it's a very complex set of reasons.

Accountable;658509 wrote: I wouldn't recognize a Zionist if he hit me with a matza ball. I have a feeling it's a very complex set of reasons.
It's just one of those words. A Jewish Zionist is a supporter of Israel as it currently stands. A Christian Zionist is the same with an alarming edge of wanting Almighty God to fight the Final War On Terror just outside of Jerusalem as soon as possible.

So, a possible motive for a politician not doing these things I've suggested is that they fear cutting aid to Israel would result in an electoral backlash among a significant fraction of their electorate.