ForumGarden

Recent threads got me thinking about people that have done bad things.........

At what point, at what age, do you think that a person is so bad that there is no hope for them? Are they born with evil genes, or is it their upbringing, the values that have been handed to them, the life they have had to live. Or is a bad upbringing just an excuse for evilness.

I had a pretty sucky childhood (don't need to go into details), but with all that I saw and endured I never once considered being hateful. I think it was because during all of this I had a Mum who continued to love people, continued to trust people, continued to see good. But what if I had not had that in my life - would it of made me react in a different way to the stuff that happened to me? And would there have been no hope for me?

So does upbringing and traumatic events cause someone to be bad. Or are they born evil? At what age do we say there is no hope of this person ever changing? Is it 5 years old, 12 yrs, 16 yrs, 25 yrs, 50 yrs? Or do we think that anyone who is capable of bad, has it in them, and it will never leave?

Nature V Nurture.

I don't think people are born bad, we all come in as innocents.

Label people enough and they will live up to their label.

You may have to walk away from a person but I don't think you should ever give up hope for them.

Most of us have the ability to evolve and develop by degrees.

Whether we do or dont is a matter as individual as our hearts.

I don't believe in anyone being born evil. I don't know about giving up on a person... cut ties with someone that continously (sp?) hurts you, yes.....



Now, as far as someone that hurts children...that is a sore subject with me, and I've been blessed with not having to deal with anything like that....that is a tough one for me to handle.....

Ahhhh Sweetheart:-4,

That is a very tough questions. I just think that "You just Know when it's time to let go and move on...." Some emotion in the brain just turns off finally because you're just so flippin hopeless and know that some people will never change.

You can't always change people, but you can modify their behavior or yours towards them. And, in the long run..... it's maybe YOU who has to change and accept the reality of the situation.:-4

It depends on what exactly we're talking about. If we're talking about alcoholics for instance, who create havoc in their family, they can change. And whoever is involved with them has their own limit as to how much they can take before leaving.

And if we're talking about people like Albert Fish who kidnapped and cannibalized a young girl back in the 1930s, then I have to say he was evil. I do believe people can be born with a black soul. I feel the bad childhood excuses are often just that- excuses. People don't want to think children are anything less than innocent angels and most probably are but I do believe there are some evil kids out there and it hasn't anything to do with their parenting.

But I am not talking about how the parent feels... cos they could either see no evil through love and maybe forgive everything or see no evil cos they don't give a damn.

I'm talking about society ...... I'm talking about the people who will decide if this person is fit to live in society. Were they born evil or did someone mess their life up so bad that there is no going back.

At what age do you give up on them?

Do you hang them at 10 yrs or do you do it at 30 yrs?

In my opinion, it depends on what the person might have done and the outrageousness (for lack of a better word- heinousness?) of their actions. If we're talking about kids here, I can think of several instances where society should have given up on them because what they did wasn't a mere childhood prank gone wrong. There was intent behind their actions, intent to harm or even kill.

I would like to see more opinions here. Cos many say it is not right to judge a child - to send that child to say the electric chair, because after all this is only a child. So is it ok for a child to commit evilness? At what point in that child's life is this unacceptable, and at what point are they accountable?

A child comes into the world with a clean slate.

We adults then teach them.Good,bad or evil they learn from adults.

Some one close to me started to drink when they were 14.

Drinking turned into gambling,stealing,borrowing money from family.

We all gave up on them & said no more,no more money,no more bailing you out of trouble,we don't want any more excuses,enough is enough.

We all gave up on them,everyone close to this person had ,had enough.

Two years down the track that person is turning their life around.

It is wonderful to see.

We had to be cruel to be kind.

Not sure if this is what you wanted but this is just my experience:-6

I think we are born pure and good. I'm always baffled by those who, say, defend the unborn child, the so called pro-lifer, failing to understand that those who they considered evil by their actions weren't at one time those innocent babes they protected so righteously. I only have to say where were these folks when the kid needed them most? Not saying this is where you are coming from, Pheasant.

Family, society, relationships are what shape the individual. Not genes. It's just that people vary in their sensitivity to the environment. I do think that some people get past the point where their behavior or outlook can be changed without constant guardianship, which puts more of a burden on us than most could ever manage. At that point the individual is sort of given up on. Sometimes though this can be likened to tough love, a catalyst for growth, a release from a certain co-dependancy that is exactly the formula needed for the person's change. Depends on the person.

Erin

I believe all children are born innocent, and pure. As a foster carer I have newborns who have come from the most dreadful families and have had the love and care of someone and they grow into loving and caring people, then I have seen the older ones who have lived through hell and know no different....and yes you could think maybe they are evil but realy I think that word is very harsh. I find after the age of 5 it is very hard to change a child but not impossible.

When do you give up......very hard question.

I believe that there are people who are good, who for some reason does a bad thing outside their personality character or purely in a moment of anger.

Then there are people who become victims of their environment, be it home or community, where good people are raised to be bad due to the experiences witnessed around them or directly.

Then don’t kid yourself, there are people who are born evil that can be cruel, evil and show no remorse for actions. They can come from ‘good’ families, neighbourhoods, schools etc. but just be an evil person.

It depends... on many family members and my wife... I'll never give up on them. In the case of anyone else that is holding me back, preventing me from growing, or bringing me down... I let them go at the point where I realise that the situation is never going to change, sans some dramatic wake-up call... I'll drop you in a heartbeat then.

I've come to realise that you can't save those that don't want to be saved and I love myself far too much to allow anyone to bring me down to their level, ever again.

Not to stray off the subject too much, but a lot of times people blame the way they were brought up, yet I've often seen people, brought up in the same family, who are like night and day.

MrsK--Was it a matter of giving up on them or was it tough love?

You give up on a person when you feel you've done all you can. Or done all you want to do. In the case of turbulant relationships with physical & emotional problems many people keep trying to see the good. They may keep trying for longer than is good for them. But the bottom line is you owe a responsibility to yourself too. It may be possible to change a person but it may not. Or it may just be not possible for YOU.



Psychological problems that make some people behave in ways deemed unacceptable pose some of the biggest problems humanity has to face. Dealing with these is fraught with difficulties. When faced with a person whose problems get in the way of a relationship, whether lovers, friends, business, etc, you can only do your best. So can they.



But you have to remember your best may not be their best. Their best may fall well below what you feel they can do, or should do. Or what you yourself can personally do. All sorts of things can affect how a person is. Without knowing what these things are the best you can do is to do as much as you feel comfortable with. Once it goes beyond that point you shouldn't feel bad about admitting your limitations. You can still keep on friendly terms with them but sometimes, for your own emotional well being, you have to know where to draw the line.

Thanks for all the replies. My point was it just seems that a lot of people (myself included), become more forgiving and hopeful of change when a child has committed a crime, but less hopefully for an adult. I just wondered at what point that child comes under the adult flag. To be honest I can't decide either.

I do feel that babies are born innocent and their upbringing and values play a big part in their personality. However, isn't a certain amount of personality built into their genes, therefore already formed at the time of birth.

ThePheasant;741212 wrote: Thanks for all the replies. My point was it just seems that a lot of people (myself included), become more forgiving and hopeful of change when a child has committed a crime, but less hopefully for an adult. I just wondered at what point that child comes under the adult flag. To be honest I can't decide either.

I do feel that babies are born innocent and their upbringing and values play a big part in their personality. However, isn't a certain amount of personality built into their genes, therefore already formed at the time of birth.


I agree with you there Phessy, My cousins are the best parents to their boy, but always knew that one day he would be in trouble and he's headed there. No matter how often they put him on the right road he always go down the wrong road.

I think some people are born bad. No matter what their upbringing was, they will be bad. Or vrngrful, or malicious, or devious, or spiteful. Despite being double crossed, cheated, or hurt... I continue to love life, trust people, and keep faith and hope. My 23 year old son is always depressed, negative, angry, despondent and morose. And after all these years of trying to influence, change, encourage, inspire, or help him..... I have given up.

I think that many mothers who have had children on death row, have been destroyed by knowing their children had no other reason for doing the things they did than bad genes. They were predisposed to doing the things they did. Why does a 5 year old torture or maime small animals? And it has been proven that even with massive psychological help the desire to observe suffering does not go away, or it always resurfaces. Good souls have the right to protect themselves from the bad. And so, it is wise to ,know when to give up.