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Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:49 am
by Raven
Florrie wrote: Clairvoyance, extra sensory perseption) or 6th sense? :-2

Do we all have the potential to be psychic, or is it just another name for intutition?

Ever considered why highly trained police investigators in murder cases consult with psychics, with some reported success - and why the majority of these psychics are women? :thinking:
I think even the FBI profilers have to be a little psychic. I think it's a little more than intuition. Even cops have their 'hinky' feelings!

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:03 am
by BabyRider
I think everyone has the ability to be psychic to a point. Those that are successful at it just know how to tap into it. We only use a small precentage of our brain power, so imagine what we could accomplish utilizing the whole thing!! I'll be interested what Koan has to say on this. She has a pretty uncanny ability!

I think the cops, though, have been around BSers so much that they can spot a liar easily, and they are trained to be more observant than the average joe. LC? What's your opinion? Are you psychic? :yh_bigsmi

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:28 am
by 911
BabyRider wrote: I think the cops, though, have been around BSers so much that they can spot a liar easily, and they are trained to be more observant than the average joe.


I think that's it. The more people you are around and the more things you do makes you a better trained person in spotting the obvious or not so obvious. And you don't have to be a cop, just a normal everyday person who pays attention to their surroundings.

But, I guess I do believe in some psychics. I've met a few who did a fair job in telling me some things that came to pass. One especially stunned me. I never thought it would happen.

If I had to choose, though, between being psychic or a healer, I would rather heal with a touch. Think how much fun that would be! Who wants to knew everyone's dirty little secrets? LOL

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:18 pm
by cars
Florrie wrote: Clairvoyance, extra sensory perseption) or 6th sense? :-2

Do we all have the potential to be psychic, or is it just another name for intutition?

Ever considered why highly trained police investigators in murder cases consult with psychics, with some reported success - and why the majority of these psychics are women? :thinking:


Here in the USA up until a few months ago there was a man called "John Edwards", that supposidly was able to reach into the hear-after and talk to deseased relatives of people. He had hundreds of people on long waiting lists, waiting to have him give them a "reading". He even had his own TV show, where people on the show swore that he reached their relatives on the "other side" and told them personal things that only their relative knew. Many people (I for one did not) believed in him. All of a sudden he dropped out of sight. Have not heard why! It was good while it lasted? :wah:

Cars :driving:

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:34 pm
by capt_buzzard
Florrie wrote: I think one can develop skills if one starts early enough with opportunity to continually build on experience providing there's enough 'hits'. Problem solving, and especially observational skills come to mind.



Those in the child protection busness are aware that abused children often develop acute observational skills which begins as 'frozen watchfulness' from a very young age. They become experts in reading body language. It usually occurs with a child acutely watching parents/carers reactions pre or post the child action or verbal comment, which would indicate to the child whether punishment was pending or not.

Sorry I gone off the beaten track.Florrie are the catholic church in Ireland in the child protection business. And were involved in recent years in Ireland in protecting themselves from the children, parents and lawyers?

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:38 pm
by capt_buzzard
And while we are on this subject I myself with others called for a Public hearing of all the cases of abuse against children by the religious orders in Ireland in 1999/2001 The Church/State along with the Opus Dei minister in the Irish Government, who did a deal to let the religious orders go free. Over 5,000 childtren, now Adults are coming from the US, Canada, Australia New Zealand + other counties. But the church saw fit to block it ever been released. Did you ever hear of Florance Horseman-Horgan, of the registered charity in Ireland. Let Our Voices Emerge (L.O.V.E) I wonder who funds this.

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:19 pm
by koan
I could have a lot to say about clairvoyance depending on what questions are asked. :D

I really dislike calling myself a "psychic" because it has been given such a bad name by charlatans. I am clairvoyant, clairsentient, clairaudient, not telepathic that I am aware of, and can heal by use of touch or auric massage. Not instant healing so don't get too excited.

I was abused in childhood and learned to leave my body. I believe this is part of the reason that I am more perceptive than many. Everyone is psychic to some extent. Some extremely psychic people reject it because they do not understand it and most write it off to "intuition" or "coincidence".

I think John Edwards is one of the great psychics and did a lot of great work. I am sorry to hear that he disappeared and hope he reemerges soon. Sylvia Brown is also a well established true psychic though I often haven't liked her attitude (and have no idea how she lives with herself charging $700 per reading. Obscene).

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:33 pm
by BabyRider
koan wrote:



I think John Edwards is one of the great psychics and did a lot of great work. I am sorry to hear that he disappeared and hope he reemerges soon.
I used to watch him religiously. He really is amazing.

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:17 pm
by Beth
I am very skeptical of Edwards, but respect others opinions about him.

I have an article from Randi that I will post, I could not find the rules on posting articles, so I am not sure of the limit to how much of the article that can be posted. I am almost certain Randi allows and encourages copying of his articles as long as they are credited. When I get more time, I'll post more about cold and warm reading from my own research.

The Art of "Cold Reading"

http://www.randi.org/library/coldreading/index.html

The currently-popular "psychics" like Sylvia Browne, James Van Praagh, and John Edward, who are getting so much TV space on Montel Williams, Larry King, and other shows, employ a technique known as "cold reading." They tell the subjects nothing, but make guesses, put out suggestions, and ask questions. This is a very deceptive art, and the unwary observer may come away believing that unknown data was developed by some wondrous means. Not so.

Examples: "I get an older man here" is a question, a suggestion, and a guess by the "reader," who expects some reaction from the subject, and usually gets it. That reaction may just be a nod, the actual name of a person, or an identification (brother, husband, grandfather), but it is supplied BY THE SUBJECT, not by the reader. "They're saying, 'Bob,' or 'Robert.' Do you recognize this person?" is another question, suggestion, and guess. If there's a Bob or Robert, the subject will amplify the identification. But if there's no Bob or Robert immediately recognized, the reader passes right on, after commenting that Bob is there alright, but not recognized right now. If any Bob is remembered later, that is incorporated into the spiel. You should observe and listen to a video of a reading. In one such by Van Praagh, prepared by the "48 Hours" TV program, a reading that lasted 60 minutes, we found only TWO actual statements made, and 260 questions asked. Both actual statements--guesses--were wrong. Van Praagh was looking for the name of the woman's deceased husband, and he came up with it by asking, "Do you know anyone named, Jack?" The woman answered, "Yes! Jack, my husband!" But Van Praagh didn't identify "Jack" at all. He asked her if SHE would identify him. By that time, Van Praagh had already tried on her 26 other men's names--all wrong. But, the woman--the subject--forgot about those failures, because they were not important to her. "Jack" was important.

The readers have a way of leading the subject to believe that they knew something they didn't. Example:

Reader: "Did your husband linger on in the hospital, or did he pass quickly?"

Subject: "Oh, he died almost immediately!"

Reader: "Yes, because he's saying to me, `I didn't suffer. I was spared any pain.'"

It's strange that the reader (Van Praagh, in this example) had to ask that question.....

And remember, these readers often go out and interview the audience members when they're on line waiting to get into the studio or auditorium. That technique was employed by the very successful reader Doris Stokes. She would feed back any data she got as if she were refreshing her memory of what had been told her. "Are you the lady who has a passed-on sister, dearie?" would of course receive assent from the victim, and ahhhs from the audience. Also, a person who approaches the reader before the TV show or auditorium meeting and says she has a question about her deceased grandmother, can then later be selected out of the audience when they're on-camera or during the live encounter, and can then be asked, "Is your question about your grandmother?" and that appears--to everyone else--like a bang-on "hit." Or, and this is very subtle indeed, people in the studio or auditorium audience--usually seated up front for best visibility--are sometimes those who have already been to the "psychic" for a private reading, and have then been asked to show up later to occupy reserved seats at the public in-person gathering "to develop more information" using the "collective power of the assembled audience." The reader then repeats previously-gleaned data, and that appears miraculous both to the audience in the studio and at home, watching, or elsewhere in the auditorium audience.

We tested Sylvia Browne in 1989, on live TV, and she failed miserably. On that occasion, she was not allowed to speak to anyone in advance, or to be asked or told anything in advance. The audience was told to only answer "yes" or "no," when asked a DIRECT question, and Sylvia bombed out big-time. She blamed it all on bad vibrations.... Van Praagh and Edward have not responded to our offer to test them--for the million-dollar prize, even.

So, you see, it's your perception of what's actually being done, rather that the reality of the procedure, and your ignorance of other subtle clues and methods, that misleads you in your observations of these "psychics."

I'll give you one example of something I did when I was performing as a mentalist in Toronto, my home town, at the age of 18. (I hasten to add here that I would ALWAYS thoroughly disclaim any genuine powers, before and after my show.) They had a huge auditorium filled with reserved seats, just about every one of them occupied by eager subjects. It was some sort of a charity affair, and seats were expensive. After I got rolling with the various moving objects and blindfolded duplication-of-handwriting stunts (spoonbending was not yet a popular miracle!) I stopped abruptly and pointed to a lady in the third-row aisle seat. "I'm led to say to you that I get a middle name of 'Rose' for you, madame!" I cried. Her gasp verified that I was right." And that name is more than significant to you." She leaned forward. "I see a clock, a very old clock, and on the dial three pink roses?" She started to speak, and I silenced her by raising my hand. "But this is a strange clock. It can't tell the time!" By now, the poor woman was about to pass out in excitement. "Why is it useless? I see two arrows, or darts�They're metal, and they're broken�Ah! I see! These are the hands of that clock, and they've come off the clock face, and are lying together behind the glass cover of the clock dial! Is that right?" The woman was standing, mouth open, nodding vigorously. She was awe-struck, and the applause was vigorous indeed. How was it done? A lucky guess? No. Planning.

T.K. Lawson, my buddy, had been working with that charity. He was the one got me the gig (a contracted appearance). And he also went through several neighborhoods selling tickets to likely donors. He had sold tickets CC-20 and CC-22 to this lady, and she'd invited him into her living-room while she made out a check to pay for the tickets. He observed that the "rose" theme was everywhere, and an embroidered "sampler" was framed by the door, with the woman's full name on it. That clock was by the fireplace. T.K. noted these facts, and reported them to me. I must tell you that together we intercepted that dear lady as she left after the show, and explained to her how I'd been "psychic." She was highly entertained with the explanation, and grateful for our caring to tell her.

I somehow don't think that Browne, Edward, and Van Praagh would trouble to do such a thing. But, after all, they say they're REALLY "speaking with the dead."

I'm amazed at how much death affects people who undergo the process. It makes them really stupid and forgetful. Whenever I've asked any psychics--or spiritualists--to contact my paternal grandmother, it seems she doesn't remember such basics as the name of her husband, or the name of her church--both important elements in her life while she was "here." Now that she's "there," her rather prodigious intellect has left her quite completely.


Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:21 pm
by Beth
Now about what was said about abused children. I agree that abuse can make a person more attuned to signals, body movents, changes in tone, etc. They seem to be more intuative because reading signals is important for surval. I suppose that it could be perceived as being psychic. I know I considered my own skill as something of a psychic trait in the past.

Clairvoyance

Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:46 pm
by koan
I don't really want to get into a debate on proving the validity of psychics. Van Praagh, I must say, I have always disliked and mistrusted because of his vagueness. Only my opinion, of course. All I can say is that I have gotten really precise messages for people on matters I knew nothing about and didn't even know what the word or image meant until they explained it to me. I just give the messages. Interpretation is where the errors occur. Psychics can have slumps just like anyone else...especially if they are nervous, tired or feel put on the spot.

I have known other psychics who are extremely accurate but are also thieves or alcoholics etc. No one is 100% accurate (or perfect). It is a difficult thing to do. Psychics are not saints or gods, they are human.

Like religion, psychic arts require some faith. I have had some readings that I refused to do unless someone who knew the person was there because the client had no self awareness and couldn't identify with the simplest of things. Yet if the friend was there it all made sense. I have also had some clients I couldn't get anything clear for. I think sometimes it is not meant for a person to know in advance what would be altered by their prior knowledge.

I have done my own tests as well among the psychic community that I know. Past lives are a fun one. I have had three different psychics tell me of the exact same past life I remembered myself...I did not tell any of them about the life memory or other psychics visions in advance. The proof, unfortunately, is usually only evident after belief is invested. For a miracle to occur you must first believe it can.

Clairvoyance

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:00 am
by Lon
I don't know if there is anything to "Sooth Saying" or not, but it's interesting that no one has ever taken the "Amazing Randi" up on his offer of one million dollars to any psychic etc. that under controlled circumstances could give results. He has debunked any number of psychics.

Clairvoyance

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:03 am
by koan
Lon wrote: I don't know if there is anything to "Sooth Saying" or not, but it's interesting that no one has ever taken the "Amazing Randi" up on his offer of one million dollars to any psychic etc. that under controlled circumstances could give results. He has debunked any number of psychics.


If you took a soccer player and bound his arms and legs then asked him to play soccer...would it mean he was not really a soccer player if he couldn't perform very well?

Clairvoyance

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:04 am
by koan
koan wrote: If you took a soccer player and bound his arms and legs then asked him to play soccer...would it mean he was not really a soccer player if he couldn't perform very well?


What if you offered him a million dollars and asked him to try again...do you think that would make a difference?

Clairvoyance

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:19 pm
by Raven
cars wrote: Here in the USA up until a few months ago there was a man called "John Edwards", that supposidly was able to reach into the hear-after and talk to deseased relatives of people. He had hundreds of people on long waiting lists, waiting to have him give them a "reading". He even had his own TV show, where people on the show swore that he reached their relatives on the "other side" and told them personal things that only their relative knew. Many people (I for one did not) believed in him. All of a sudden he dropped out of sight. Have not heard why! It was good while it lasted? :wah:

Cars :driving:
He was the guy with the drawings, right?

Clairvoyance

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:52 pm
by telaquapacky
I visited a church once where the reverend was a spirit medium (I told the story in a post in a thread in Religions & Beliefs > General Religious Discussions > What Has Changed Your Life, posts number 5 and 7)

If you believe in angels, and if you believe there are good angels (those on God's side) and evil angels (those on Satan's side), you could see how there would be supernatural beings around us all the time, some good, some bad. Satan has plans for this world. Some of those plans God will allow Satan to succeed in (wars, disasters, your rival soccer team winning, etc) Some plans Satan has, God will not allow him to succeed in. So some of Satan's plans will succeed, some will not. What if a spirit medium is in touch with evil spirits posing as good angels or spirits of dearly departed humans? Suppose that these evil angels reveal to the medium Satan's plans as if they were tomorrow's news. Some of those predictions come true, some don't. Suppose they reveal family secrets, and once they've "hooked" you, give you bad advice? The Bible strongly prohibited contact with spirits, because you can't tell whether a spirit is good or evil and you can't tell what their agenda is, and it's too risky to be talking to them at all. That's what I think about spirit mediums.

I've been meaning to say, careful, Koan.

About telepathy, that's an entirely different thing, and it's more useful. I've had one episode of telepathy I know for sure of in my life, and probably many more less obvious ones that I have forgotten. People have telepathic experiences all the time. Mothers know when their children are in danger. When you take a commercial flight, the pilot tells you to turn off your cell phone and other electronics because they interfere with communication and control. Well, your brain is a chemical-electric device, and you emit energy constantly. When people are close friends or relatives, they are attuned to one another. Perhaps some are just more sensitive to this than others.

I read somewhere, and I forgot the details, that people all over the world (or was it animals?) have some measurable perception event when there is a great disaster like 9-11 or the Tsunami. The interesting part is that they found that the spike in activity peaks before the event happens. (help me if you remember what article I'm referring to) I think every person in this world is influenced not only by the people close to them, but by the spirits close to them, even if they are atheists or don't believe in spirits.

We oughta be picky about the spirits we hang out with :D

Clairvoyance

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:42 pm
by cars
Raven wrote: He was the guy with the drawings, right?


No, John Edwards did not use drawings in his "readings". I have seen the man with the drawings you're referring to, but unfortunately I can't recall his name at this time. :wah:

Cars :driving:

Clairvoyance

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:43 pm
by lady cop
someone asked, so............i have been aware all my life of having ESP, but not enough to win the lottery....it manifests itself in an ability to nearly read minds. and to "feel' something coming, either for good or ill. since being a cop i have finely tuned it, i don't think people can be trained to intuit liars and scams and cons. but if my BS detector is aided by ESP as well as experience and intuition, i certainly rely on it. and so do people who work with me, i am a good interviewer, don't need the rubber hose, only my radar. i will admit to this....i have "called" a number of murder cases, right down to where the bodies were going to be found and also unlikely perpetrators that were a shock to my compatriots.there is ALWAYS a fatal flaw that i seem to be able to zero in on quickly. i don't know how much to attribute to ESP and how much to plain old thinking it through. :thinking:

Clairvoyance

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:12 am
by koan
Thanks for the warning, Telaquapacky.

I have had my adventures and am very careful that I know who I am talking to. I am not interested in being the megaphone for a bunch of losers that don't know when to "move on".

Clairvoyance

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:55 am
by koan
PrinceMelek wrote: Clairvoyance...do you think people are seeing into the future, into the past, into the spirit world or into another realm of consciousness that is running parallel to ours??


Very interesting question. I have seen into both past and future. But it is another realm of consciousness. Placing something in time is difficult in translation BECAUSE time is a sequence of events. However long that sequence takes (which is subject to free will) affects the "time" it happens in our understanding. The past is much easier. I have a concept of the world as happening simultaneously which, although not new, is difficult to explain.