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Okay let me explain the situation!

I'm the director of our churches Vacation Bible School, if y'all know what that is!

anyway tonight was the first night. the preacher comes in with a complaint, he said he's always wanted to say something about this. Were we Christians first or Americans first? He was questioning the order of the service and wondering why we always said the pledge to the American flag first!

Being the director, the choice of how the service is carried out is mine, so i said i had no problem with changing the order, if nobody objected. My assistant agreed so we changed the service. we pledged to the Christian flag first, then to the Bible and lastly to the American Flag! Someone made a comment that it was a case of civil disobedience, that the American flag is always supposed to be done first!

anyway, i know nothing about the proper rules dealing with the American flag so maybe some of you could tell me. Was this a case of civil disobedience?

Hope - I'm not American, as you know, so maybe my comments are not appropriate. BUT - I always thought of flags as something to do with countries, human alliances, patriotism - things like that. I'm Christian, and I've never seen a Christian 'flag'!!! I can't imagine what a Christian flag would be like, or why anyone would pledge allegiance to it anyway. Sure there are banners and symbols, but no flag as such.

Our spiritual allegiance is to God, not a bit of cloth.

When I was at primary (grade) school in the wicked days before political correctness / multiculturalism / etc.. we used to begin each day with a mantra.. I worship my God, I something or other the Queen (can't remember what we did to her!), I salute the flag.

i too am not an american citizen but i know how passionate americans are about

the stars and stripes ...

in my opinion if one is born in america you are an american citizen and therefore

firstly owe allegiance to your country of birth ...

can one be born a christian?

AussiePam;884796 wrote: Hope - I'm not American, as you know, so maybe my comments are not appropriate. BUT - I always thought of flags as something to do with countries, human alliances, patriotism - things like that. I'm Christian, and I've never seen a Christian 'flag'!!! I can't imagine what a Christian flag would be like, or why anyone would pledge allegiance to it anyway. Sure there are banners and symbols, but no flag as such.

Our spiritual allegiance is to God, not a bit of cloth.

When I was at primary (grade) school in the wicked days before political correctness / multiculturalism / etc.. we used to begin each day with a mantra.. I worship my God, I something or other the Queen (can't remember what we did to her!), I salute the flag.


a Christian flag has been displayed in my church my entire life, it's common in Southern Baptist churches here in America. here's a link explaining what it is.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_flag

jones jones;884811 wrote: i too am not an american citizen but i know how passionate americans are about

the stars and stripes ...

in my opinion if one is born in america you are an american citizen and therefore

firstly owe allegiance to your country of birth ...

can one be born a christian?


that point was brought up by someone too!

we are born American but no you can't be born Christian, that's something you choose later.

i am also very passionate about my flag and very patriotic, maybe that's why it's kinda bothering me whether or not we should have done this.

For my two ducats, I truly don't think it matters which you do first. The president's not around to hear you and God is. Go with your heart.

ps: No. It's not civil disobedience. Whoever said that doesn't understand what civil disobedience means.

RedGlitter;884821 wrote: For my two ducats, I truly don't think it matters which you do first. The president's not around to hear you and God is. Go with your heart.

ps: No. It's not civil disobedience. Whoever said that doesn't understand what civil disobedience means.


yeah i really didn't know what the term civil disobedience envolved, so i thought someone on here might, thank you!

Hope6;884823 wrote: yeah i really didn't know what the term civil disobedience envolved, so i thought someone on here might, thank you!


I'm sorry Hope, I guess I could have offered an explanation. I sort of spouted off my opinion and then flew away! Civil disobedience is refusal to follow or obey a law that one feels is unjust, but it's done without fighting or violence. For example, Rosa Parks, the black woman who refused to give her seat up to a white man on the bus. Or during the Vietnam war, the hippies and others who felt the war was wrong would have sit-ins or peaceful protests against the war and would sometimes refuse to leave when ordered to by cops so they would be picked up and carried off. . You're not practicing any civil disobedience with what you're doing with the flag.

Here's a quick blurb from Wikipedia:

Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence. It is one of the primary tactics of nonviolent resistance. In its most nonviolent form (known as ahimsa or satyagraha) it could be said that it is compassion in the form of respectful disagreement. Civil disobedience is one of the many ways people have rebelled against unfair laws. It has been used in many well-documented nonviolent resistance movements in India (Gandhi's social welfare campaigns and campaigns for independence from the British Empire), in South Africa in the fight against apartheid, in the American Civil Rights Movement, Jehovah's Witnesses' stand against the Nazis (1929-1945), and in peace movements worldwide. One of its earliest massive implementations was by Egyptians against the British occupation in the nonviolent 1919 Revolution.




:)

Thanks Hope. I've never seen that flag before, or heard about it. I've been in Anglican / Episcopalian / Catholic Christian churches in a load of countries over a load of years - and never seen it. One lives and learns. That does, however, itself make a small point. The flag is representative only of one of the many streams of Christianity, therefore it's a local symbol. Maybe your country's symbol should come before a local symbol. It's not like it's putting your President before your God.

Being a lapsed Presbyterian freethinker I wouldn't pledge allegiance to anyone or anything anyway- but I'm a bit funny. I'm not American-and not actually religious so forgive my tuppence worth.

But one of the reasons for all the religious wars in europe was the simple issue of who rules. The pope in Rome or the king and government- to whom does a catholic owe first loyalty? The pope or the American constitution, to whom does a christian owe allegiance first -the teaching of his faith or the constitution. If the pope or one of the other Christian churches were to come out and condemn the war in iraq and forbid members to fight on pain of excommunication what would be the reaction? If it was a catholic pledging allegiance to the pope before the flag what would you think?

Do you swear allegiance to a secular state before your church? By switching the order are you not choosing to put your church before your country? It's not civil disobedience but is it treason?

I've been thinking more on this and what kept coming to mind was "God...Family...Country." In that order. I thought "Yeah that's as it should be." Then I realized I had it wrong- it was actually "God...Family...Work" and it was the Mary Kay Cosmetics mantra! Yowza!!

Personally, I don't think any country should come before a person's god. That could be dangerous but Id rather err on the side of faith than government. (my opinion)

RedGlitter;884836 wrote: I'm sorry Hope, I guess I could have offered an explanation. I sort of spouted off my opinion and then flew away! Civil disobedience is refusal to follow or obey a law that one feels is unjust, but it's done without fighting or violence. For example, Rosa Parks, the black woman who refused to give her seat up to a white man on the bus. Or during the Vietnam war, the hippies and others who felt the war was wrong would have sit-ins or peaceful protests against the war and would sometimes refuse to leave when ordered to by cops so they would be picked up and carried off. . You're not practicing any civil disobedience with what you're doing with the flag.

Here's a quick blurb from Wikipedia:






thank you Red!

that was very informative!:)

AussiePam;884837 wrote: Thanks Hope. I've never seen that flag before, or heard about it. I've been in Anglican / Episcopalian / Catholic Christian churches in a load of countries over a load of years - and never seen it. One lives and learns. That does, however, itself make a small point. The flag is representative only of one of the many streams of Christianity, therefore it's a local symbol. Maybe your country's symbol should come before a local symbol. It's not like it's putting your President before your God.


yeah i think this flag is a North American thing and also a Protestant thing as well!

it makes me wonder if it should be put over my country's symbol, that's true.

You are very welcome, Hope! My pleasure.

gmc;884867 wrote: Being a lapsed Presbyterian freethinker I wouldn't pledge allegiance to anyone or anything anyway- but I'm a bit funny. I'm not American-and not actually religious so forgive my tuppence worth.

But one of the reasons for all the religious wars in europe was the simple issue of who rules. The pope in Rome or the king and government- to whom does a catholic owe first loyalty? The pope or the American constitution, to whom does a christian owe allegiance first -the teaching of his faith or the constitution. If the pope or one of the other Christian churches were to come out and condemn the war in iraq and forbid members to fight on pain of excommunication what would be the reaction? If it was a catholic pledging allegiance to the pope before the flag what would you think?

Do you swear allegiance to a secular state before your church? By switching the order are you not choosing to put your church before your country? It's not civil disobedience but is it treason?


this is the legal difinition of treason.

TREASON - This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.

The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.



so no, we're not levying war or giving aid and comfort to any enemies and as for the breach of allegiance i don't think so because we still pledged allegiance to the American flag, it's not like we took it out and refused to pladge to it at all.

I am sorry, but I think that it is ridiculous to have a flag for a religion. I also think it is ridiculous the way Americans pay homage to their flag. I don’t mean any offence to anyone by this, but that is what I think.

at the end of the day hope ... do what YOU believe to be the correct and proper

thing ... but if you feel that you you do not wish to make the decision alone ...

then put it to the vote ...



Jj

I agree with the above, it is a protocol/custom only that establishes which is pledged first. It is your choice as director of VBS whether to continue custom or not, and if not-let the preacher talk about it. Sounds like a sermon to me, it's his area of expertise.....

good advice from everybody, thank you!

it gives me a lot to think about, because actually i didn't think it mattered that much what the order was, as long as we pledged to all of them, but y'all have made some good points here, i mostly agreed to change it because i don't like conflict and didn't want to get into a debate with the preacher!

as a good friend has told me on several occasions, i'm a big wuss!:wah::wah:

RED - WHITE - BLUE has to fly before or above anyother flag - always.

the order you decide to do the Pledge is just that your choice.



I also have never heard of a religious flag

Patsy