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im a bit like you Jimbo, believe, dont, do, dont:rolleyes:sometimes i think i believe in an afterlife just because its comforting to me

I often wonder why I chose this planet

I haven't lost my religion...I still believe in myself:D

Jimbo, as long as your happy with your lot, does it matter?

God or no God, people still get ill, still die, still hurt and struggle through life. Its how you react to the bad times and which life skill tools you adopt to see you through those times that matter.

Some people find that although they don't believe in God, they cant bear to think that their isn't anything so they decide on afterlife or heaven ect..as their crutch. As long as we find comfort in what we believe, it doesn''t actually matter what that IS...

I'm off i'm rambling:D:D

Endure, Ian, not injure. It makes more difference than most spelling errors.

Jimbo - logic's fine. The trick is to apply it to what you know.

What you know is the things that have happened to you. They're immediate real events. Throwing them away is not a good idea. They include those dreams you mention and a few other bits. They include the overpowering rush you'll have had when you stopped holding back from a faith group and joined in.

What you don't know is what those things mean. Neither do I. They're real though, you know they happened.

The religion bit, where a bunch of people say "I know what it means" and then hand you half a dozen impossible beliefs to swallow, is different. It's their interpretation of what happened. A different bunch would give a different half dozen impossible beliefs to swallow, some of which require you to believe that the first bunch of people are heathen idolaters who will burn in hell for all eternity because of their blasphemous impossible beliefs. None of that is the immediate real things you know about, it's all interpretation and mostly it comes from people who want something. More church memberships, perhaps, or boasting rights on how many conversions they've made, or self-satisfaction at being looked up to.

Maybe you'll find an interpretation that's helpful, maybe you won't. They're still your events. Throwing them away instead of accepting that they happened is a waste of a lot of uphill struggle you've been through.

Every way of looking at what happens obscures some views just by highlighting others. Some are so unreal it's like saying ignore real things, put your head in this box and we'll run cartoons at you instead. Others are maybe more illuminating. None of them are explanations, they're all just points of view.

Some of these belief systems can get a few people to behave better toward others than they'd have done without the belief system. I don't think that happens to many. It's a by-product. Most people who do the right thing do it because they want to. Nobody ever does it all the time. Stick with remembering what really happened, do a few extra good things now and then just to make up for the bad ones, puzzle out a description of a view that includes what you know. If someone else manages to explain it in a way that means something to you then great, you're another step ahead. If you find a community where you can comfortably increase your good to bad ratio then think yourself lucky and sign up, not many of us have such a useful support team. Maybe the half dozen impossible beliefs they ask you to to swallow are a small price, they're no more impossible than what the unbelievers have to put up with.

When an event does not have a logical explanation for it's occurence, we rely on faith. Faith is what is handed down to us from the past. Can faith be interpreted differently, or altered, or exaggerated?.................yes. It is the faith that gives us hope, and comfort, and kindness to others, and inner-peace and strength...that is a gift in our lives.



Just my humble thoughts on the subject, Jimbo.

The trick with religion, Jimbo... is to not let what you believe or disbelieve be commanded by any man. Man can only disappoint, in the long run. Man can only interpret what man thinks god means for us... man cannot really know, or man would in fact be god.

I don't belong to any organized religion. I've started my daughter in Sunday school at a local Lutheran church because the statues and pageantry of my catholic youth, was a total turnoff to learning and thoughtful contemplation of the possibilities of a higher being ... fear of damnation is not a good enough enticement, IMO.. :rolleyes:

My personal thoughts on God, is that if She or He is really there and is really a God to be revered... that God will not judge me on my belief in them so much as how much they were able to believe in me..

I've never had a time when i have been in danger of losing my religion, because i rely on my faith, if i don't understand why something happens the way it does i realize that God does things for his own reasons and its not my place to question it. i know some people who have falllen out with their religion because they pray for something and didn't get it, they said God didn't answer their prayer, but i alway remember what my daddy used to say. God answers all our prayers, it just that sometimes the answer is no!

It's not about religion Jimbutt...it's about faith and belief. Religion is a word thrown upon a group of people that join together and that believe the same thing. My faith and belief is that God is real and Jesus died for our sins...that if we do not accept Christ into our hearts we will suffer forever in Hell. Yes, my faith and belief DO get tested and I struggle with it at times...like now. I've heard it explained in a way that keeps me going pretty straight most of the time. If I'm wrong about my beliefs, then I've led a better life and done more good things than I would have had I known no one was watching over me...then I just waste away when I die. If I'm right then I go to Heaven, which is a much better alternative than the other. I don't go to church, but that doesn't mean I don't have a belief and faith in my God.

Like it's been said here Jim, don't throw away what you know is real to you. Go with it and try to discover what it means to you. It could just be a dream, but it could also be a gift. JMHO.

Ian;990860 wrote: There is no God, I wish people would understand this, to have faith in this idea is completely bonkers, mankind must move forward, to think that you are divine species is preposterous, it starts when you believe in Santa Claus.

the old testament is the cycle of the platonic year and the new testament is the cycle of the sun, educate yourselves instead of having faith,

the story of Jesus is written on the pyramids of Egypt, the story of Noah is written on a Sumerian tablet, everything is astrological.

every child given faith is a child lied to.


It's fine to have your own opinion, but to come here and say everyone with faith is bonkers is just plain rude and ridiculous. Why don't you go into your corner and come back when you can play nice.

Ian;990867 wrote: I will share my knowledge always to better mankind and not to post a silly little comment in a forum.


I hate to be the one to tell you this, but you failed miserably.

Ian;990286 wrote: Religion.. I wish it would go away.. brainwashed ppl scare me.

At my fathers funeral the Priests were warned not to come anyway near me. the fact that I had to injure the pompous funeral service nearly destroyed me inside.


Funerals aren't about the people attending they're about the one being buried. If your dad was religious you should respect that and keep your opinions to yourself (while at the funeral anyway) . Ritual is important, it's a formal way of saying goodbye. When you die you can get cremated and spread the ashes or get yourself buried in a wee pottery jar with a sign saying ah well that's it then. At my brother's funeral the local minister led, not because my brother was religious (he most definitely was not) but because he was a friend and used to these things.

posted by iain

There is no God, I wish people would understand this, to have faith in this idea is completely bonkers, mankind must move forward, to think that you are divine species is preposterous, it starts when you believe in Santa Claus.


Prove there is no god. At best ( IMO that is ) all you can claim is that the balance of probability, based on the evidence you have, is that there probably isn't one.

posted by jimbo

has anyone else ever had a faith issue like this .. and did it come back or did logic prevail


Everybody does, those who say they haven't either haven't thought about or or are afraid to. Each tom their own, the only certainty you have is that someone else can't find the answer for you.

Life's a joke we just don't understand the punchline
from the book of the cosmic comedian (the one found in a jam jar in wookie hole.

jimbo;990234 wrote: i have been an athiest most of my life and very happy, then after a few family deaths i had what i can only see as dreams that had to mean some thing things that were just too impossible to just dream things that had to be a message from beyond :-3



so i thought there was more than man came from monkey and invented god in his own image , i searched for more and i believed i found more , i thought whilst i was at my church how sorry i felt for non believers , well its all gone all of it , my faith seems to of up and gone i'm back to thinking along the lines of we share 98% of our dna with chimps how can we not come from chimps





i think the last straw was watching the di vinci it was pretty much spot on if you ask me



has anyone else ever had a faith issue like this .. and did it come back or did logic prevail








You're coming to God was quite a turnaround, it was a huge event in your life, you're feeling flat - that's all. I think if you give yourself time you will settle into your faith.



It's not wrong to question, it's human to doubt, evidence is hard to find but within yourself I'm sure you feel better for having God in your life.



Persevere - it's worth it, you're worth it.

Ian;990860 wrote: There is no God, I wish people would understand this, to have faith in this idea is completely bonkers, mankind must move forward, to think that you are divine species is preposterous, it starts when you believe in Santa Claus.

the old testament is the cycle of the platonic year and the new testament is the cycle of the sun, educate yourselves instead of having faith,

the story of Jesus is written on the pyramids of Egypt, the story of Noah is written on a Sumerian tablet, everything is astrological.

every child given faith is a child lied to.


well darlin i guess i'm completely bonkers then, because my faith is unshakable!

everybody has there on thoughts on the idea, but my faith is a great source of comfort for me, i never question it because i have seen to much in this world that cannot be explained by anything but a divine presence!

Imladris;990966 wrote: You're coming to God was quite a turnaround, it was a huge event in your life, you're feeling flat - that's all. I think if you give yourself time you will settle into your faith.

It's not wrong to question, it's human to doubt, evidence is hard to find but within yourself I'm sure you feel better for having God in your life.



Persevere - it's worth it, you're worth it.


I have exactly the same thoughts :-6

Seek. And you shall find. No if's, no maybes. You SHALL! God gave you a brain. Exercise it. Question everything. Look everywhere. And the truth shall set you free.

Do you REALLY think death is the end of it? You think your soul is that cheap? What is it in man that craves more? Every society and people on earth have 2 legends. One is the flood, and the other is nirvanna. Why is that? The seeking of answers is half the fun! Read and study the books of the ancients. You are never too old to gain in wisdom and knowledge. And if, at the end, you still dont believe it, then you know some cracking tales! What have you got to lose.....but your soul maybe. Everyone has a faith crisis. It makes us grow. keeps us balanced. Find your place in the greater scheme of things. The cosmos is quite small really. There HAS to be more! Good luck and GOD bless, mate! XX

At least you didnt lose your testicals.

Thats something to be grateful for.

Personally, my children all go to Catholic schools and I make them go to church. I myself don't bother to go at all. Probs, because I detest the current priest who is a real d*ckhead.

Nomad;991355 wrote: At least you didnt lose your testicals.

Thats something to be grateful for.


:yh_rotfl Aren't they what got us chucked out of paradise?

Have you read letters from a sceptic??? I think a lot of ya'll will like it. some of the theology i don't agree with but for the most part i liked it.

Nomad;991355 wrote: At least you didnt lose your testicals.

Thats something to be grateful for.


That could be arranged :sneaky::sneaky:

In my mind, religion is just another form of philosophy - another way of trying to understand the world.

Imagine what it was like for our ancestors thousands of years ago before we had the science and understanding we have now. Life was magical at times and drastic at others times.

Sometimes I think that we only evolved so the universe (or whatever) had a way of looking at itself. Consider the quantum sciences. So far all we know is that everything is made of particles that we can't pinpoint unless we look at it. If we're not looking at it, we don't know where it is. And as for dimensions, I can appreciate the first three dimensions and I have a reasonably good grasp of the fourth (but not 100%). What I want to know is: exactly what are the other 7 (or is it 8 now) dimensions; what are they dimensions of? Since I can't see them, should I believe they exist just because of mathematical proof? And there's a question I haven't seen asked yet - what exists in the spaces between the particles? After all, it doesn't make that much difference to the living of my life.

Organised religion has been the cause of many wars and still is even though these wars go against their tenets. Religion in itself is harmless, just a way of understanding life. It's how mankind or individuals with power (or without) use religion to further its own ends that abhors me. One of the most insipid aspects of a religious persons faith can be that person's persecution of those who don't share the same faith.

I have certain beliefs about the life around us that have not been explained by science (which is, essentially, another term for philosophy). Simply holding a belief in this way must surely make me religious (not all religions place a god at the top of everything). Yet all scientific truths started this way - as a theory or a question.

There is another term for how we treat each other. It is ethical behaviour. It is, in part, a branch of the social sciences. It is also, in part, a branch of all the religions I can think of at the moment. They can be complementary. But I ramble.

Every individual needs the right to make up their own mind as to what they believe. What suits one person does not necessarily suit another. Forcing an individual to believe another's tenets does nothing to further the individual's welfare or understanding. Mostly, the oppressed individual will find a way around it to suit. Further, discussion and civilised argument aids our understanding of the world around us and if we all believed the same thing, there would be nothing to discuss. Every individual's perspective is a valid perspective of the nature of life and everything.

One man may say that God is in everything, another may say that everything is filled with energy - even the ashes left from a bonfire.

Religion has its place in creating a civilised people - more so than simply making laws to cover every aspect of life. Even so, the interpretation of religious tenets can have consequences just as the interpretation of laws can be manipulated.



Well, I hope some of that makes sense!!



Let's sing now:

Always look on the bright side of life

Dedah, dedah dedah dedah.

sending hugs to you Jimbo...you know how I feel on the subject!!:-4:-4

Never had any to lose Jimbo:-6

Ian;992225 wrote: You're just like my mother, someone maybe saved from a burning car or survive the impossible and you say there is a God, but why are so many millions suffering right NOW? where is your God?



I agree that something is guiding us and teaching us but to just say " I believe in God" isn't good enough, and those who think he's a man sat on a cloud in the sky are truly insane.Ian, we all have our ideals, if someone has that image surely the comfort it gives them is enough?

I am an atheist Ian and tbh, I envy folk that has even a smidgeon of faith. :-6

Ian;992235 wrote: It may look cruel and insensitive to pull the rug from under peoples feet but the problem is with this image is that it's being put into the minds of children and this is what really evokes such a strong response on my part.

"I would rather spend my life searching for the truth than rest a single day within the comfort of a lie."

— John Victor Ramses


Quit deceiving yourself, you're not pulling the rug out from anyones feet that have faith in, and believe in, God. All three of my daughters are believers, and THEY were the ones to make the decision for themselves. Quite frankly, it's none of your business how a person brings up their own children when it comes to religion, or anything else as a matter of fact.

If/when you have children, then that will be your decision.

I think you must be trying to get across your point, but no one is going to listen to your self rightous little tirades. You sound bitter and angry, lighten up and then someone might be willing to discuss this topic with you in a civilized way. It won't help your cause by trying to stuff your beliefs down everyone elses throats.

Ian;992275 wrote: Is "go sit in the corner" the civilized way you mentioned?

I'll stick with my original self righteous belief that religion is Bonkers :-6


Both atheists and religious people are irrational. One believes in something you can't prove and so does the other.