The timing on this is very interesting.
I'd loved to know the conversations that are going on in Washington right now.
Coldwar/Armsrace update
Coldwar/Armsrace update
"Out, damned spot! out, I say!"
- William Shakespeare, Macbeth, 5.1
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1047279 wrote: Russia is going to deploy Iskander missile systems in Kaliningrad. Hopefully the US will get the message. I doubt it though.
To date Russia has done nothing like this in the european theatre, they do keep nuclear weapons available for the Baltic fleet but that is common knowledge. Since leaving the CFE treaty, they have moved conventional forces from east of the Urals to european Russia in unknown numbers and the north Caucasus is essentially a huge military base.
YouTube - SRBM Iskander-M (SS-26 Stone)
Iskander - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia
Who else see's a Kennedy/Cuba/Bay of pigs coming on???
To date Russia has done nothing like this in the european theatre, they do keep nuclear weapons available for the Baltic fleet but that is common knowledge. Since leaving the CFE treaty, they have moved conventional forces from east of the Urals to european Russia in unknown numbers and the north Caucasus is essentially a huge military base.
YouTube - SRBM Iskander-M (SS-26 Stone)
Iskander - Wikipedia, the free
encyclopedia
Who else see's a Kennedy/Cuba/Bay of pigs coming on???
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Coldwar/Armsrace update
This is very alarming, that speech was extraordinarily agressive and confrontational; Medvedev seemed uncomfortable even giving it to the Duma, if you ask me.
Kaliningrad is a part of Russia that is territorially completely surrounded by EU member states (it was once part of East Prussia before WW II, of course Eastern Prussia no longer exists and is now North Eastern Poland). The implications of the Americans putting missiles in Poland, and Russia putting missiles in Kalinigrad, and then something going horribly wrong, don't need to be explained.
The EU and Russia need to sit down right now and talk over the imeadiate concerns. Once President Obama is sworn in he needs to go to Moscow and dicuss strategic issues with President Medvedev.
The situation cannot be allowed to get any worse, and the West and Russia need to come to some form of agreement on strategic positions and spheres of influence. The process of NATO expansion in the East should be suspended or stopped, and Russia needs to back down a little. Allow some breathing space for negotiation, there is too much to lose.
Kaliningrad is a part of Russia that is territorially completely surrounded by EU member states (it was once part of East Prussia before WW II, of course Eastern Prussia no longer exists and is now North Eastern Poland). The implications of the Americans putting missiles in Poland, and Russia putting missiles in Kalinigrad, and then something going horribly wrong, don't need to be explained.
The EU and Russia need to sit down right now and talk over the imeadiate concerns. Once President Obama is sworn in he needs to go to Moscow and dicuss strategic issues with President Medvedev.
The situation cannot be allowed to get any worse, and the West and Russia need to come to some form of agreement on strategic positions and spheres of influence. The process of NATO expansion in the East should be suspended or stopped, and Russia needs to back down a little. Allow some breathing space for negotiation, there is too much to lose.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Coldwar/Armsrace update
oscar;1047307 wrote: Who else see's a Kennedy/Cuba/Bay of pigs coming on???
If you know your history you will be aware that russia started siting missiles on cuba only after the americans put missiles in Turkey and refused to talk about it. Part of the arrangement after the bay of pigs was that america would remove the missiles in turkey-they never actually kept the agreement.
If you know your history you will be aware that russia started siting missiles on cuba only after the americans put missiles in Turkey and refused to talk about it. Part of the arrangement after the bay of pigs was that america would remove the missiles in turkey-they never actually kept the agreement.
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wildhorses
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
oscar;1047307 wrote: Who else see's a Kennedy/Cuba/Bay of pigs coming on???
:yh_hypno
Yes I see that coming. My first feelings about it were last August.
:yh_hypno
Yes I see that coming. My first feelings about it were last August.
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
gmc;1047435 wrote: If you know your history you will be aware that russia started siting missiles on cuba only after the americans put missiles in Turkey and refused to talk about it. Part of the arrangement after the bay of pigs was that america would remove the missiles in turkey-they never actually kept the agreement.
Thank you my bearded Scottish one. I thank you for this post because Spot and i were on another thread where Spot said he admired Kennedy's handling of the Cuba crisis. I said that i believed Kennedy was a fool. he fell for the 'Tsar bomber' bluff and backed down to Russia. I also said to Spot that kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from turkey as a bargain with Russia. Spot disputed this and found a wiki link for me but the link did state that kennedy did indeed secretly withdraw missiles from Turkey. I also said to Spot that on the invasion of The bay of pigs, Kennedy promised full air support and renegaged. In fact he cancelled the air support and it's why i believed Kennedy handled the whole affair badly.
I also said to Spot, that from my memory, America was the aggressor but then agreed with Spot that the threat to invade Cuba was only after Russia began siting missiles there.
I do know my history, i just don't google as much as i should or time allows me and i often go my memory.
What i meant by a Kennedy/Cuba crisis in this thread was a reference to a stand off, not so much a repeat of the actual invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
I know you don't like me talking about the Great one... Great Gordon Brown..... but i do think he won't be up for any of those shananagans from Russia.
We will have to see how the talks go.
Thank you my bearded Scottish one. I thank you for this post because Spot and i were on another thread where Spot said he admired Kennedy's handling of the Cuba crisis. I said that i believed Kennedy was a fool. he fell for the 'Tsar bomber' bluff and backed down to Russia. I also said to Spot that kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from turkey as a bargain with Russia. Spot disputed this and found a wiki link for me but the link did state that kennedy did indeed secretly withdraw missiles from Turkey. I also said to Spot that on the invasion of The bay of pigs, Kennedy promised full air support and renegaged. In fact he cancelled the air support and it's why i believed Kennedy handled the whole affair badly.
I also said to Spot, that from my memory, America was the aggressor but then agreed with Spot that the threat to invade Cuba was only after Russia began siting missiles there.
I do know my history, i just don't google as much as i should or time allows me and i often go my memory.
What i meant by a Kennedy/Cuba crisis in this thread was a reference to a stand off, not so much a repeat of the actual invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
I know you don't like me talking about the Great one... Great Gordon Brown..... but i do think he won't be up for any of those shananagans from Russia.
We will have to see how the talks go.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Coldwar/Armsrace update
oscar;1047547 wrote: Thank you my bearded Scottish one. I thank you for this post because Spot and i were on another thread where Spot said he admired Kennedy's handling of the Cuba crisis. I said that i believed Kennedy was a fool. he fell for the 'Tsar bomber' bluff and backed down to Russia. I also said to Spot that kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from turkey as a bargain with Russia. Spot disputed this and found a wiki link for me but the link did state that kennedy did indeed secretly withdraw missiles from Turkey. I also said to Spot that on the invasion of The bay of pigs, Kennedy promised full air support and renegaged. In fact he cancelled the air support and it's why i believed Kennedy handled the whole affair badly.
I also said to Spot, that from my memory, America was the aggressor but then agreed with Spot that the threat to invade Cuba was only after Russia began siting missiles there.
I do know my history, i just don't google as much as i should or time allows me and i often go my memory.
What i meant by a Kennedy/Cuba crisis in this thread was a reference to a stand off, not so much a repeat of the actual invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
I know you don't like me talking about the Great one... Great Gordon Brown..... but i do think he won't be up for any of those shananagans from Russia.
We will have to see how the talks go.
Both sides saw sense. If they had not we would not be having this discussion. Not destroying the world is hardly the act of a fool. Kennedy did agree to withdraw missiles secretly-the russians kept it secret to allow him to save face and be seen ti be giving in. In actual fact I don't think hey did-although I would have to do some digging to confirm that either way.
There are a lot of once secret papers from that time that have past the moratorium period. Both Russian and American. Sometimes what you think happened actually didn't happen the way you think.
Only a complete idiot would want a nuclear war, deliberately provoking confrontation when there is no need for it is the act of an imbecile.
Who do you think will be the new leader of the labour party?
I also said to Spot, that from my memory, America was the aggressor but then agreed with Spot that the threat to invade Cuba was only after Russia began siting missiles there.
I do know my history, i just don't google as much as i should or time allows me and i often go my memory.
What i meant by a Kennedy/Cuba crisis in this thread was a reference to a stand off, not so much a repeat of the actual invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
I know you don't like me talking about the Great one... Great Gordon Brown..... but i do think he won't be up for any of those shananagans from Russia.
We will have to see how the talks go.
Both sides saw sense. If they had not we would not be having this discussion. Not destroying the world is hardly the act of a fool. Kennedy did agree to withdraw missiles secretly-the russians kept it secret to allow him to save face and be seen ti be giving in. In actual fact I don't think hey did-although I would have to do some digging to confirm that either way.
There are a lot of once secret papers from that time that have past the moratorium period. Both Russian and American. Sometimes what you think happened actually didn't happen the way you think.
Only a complete idiot would want a nuclear war, deliberately provoking confrontation when there is no need for it is the act of an imbecile.
Who do you think will be the new leader of the labour party?
Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1047317 wrote: It won't be anything like that, Kallinigrad is a Russian enclave. This is within international laws. I think Russia may see it that way though, they see it as a significant threat.
Putting presure on Poland to terminate the agreement or directly at the US?
Putting presure on Poland to terminate the agreement or directly at the US?
Coldwar/Armsrace update
oscar;1047547 wrote: Thank you my bearded Scottish one. I thank you for this post because Spot and i were on another thread where Spot said he admired Kennedy's handling of the Cuba crisis. I said that i believed Kennedy was a fool. he fell for the 'Tsar bomber' bluff and backed down to Russia. I also said to Spot that kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from turkey as a bargain with Russia. Spot disputed this and found a wiki link for me but the link did state that kennedy did indeed secretly withdraw missiles from Turkey. I also said to Spot that on the invasion of The bay of pigs, Kennedy promised full air support and renegaged. In fact he cancelled the air support and it's why i believed Kennedy handled the whole affair badly.
I also said to Spot, that from my memory, America was the aggressor but then agreed with Spot that the threat to invade Cuba was only after Russia began siting missiles there.
I do know my history, i just don't google as much as i should or time allows me and i often go my memory.
What i meant by a Kennedy/Cuba crisis in this thread was a reference to a stand off, not so much a repeat of the actual invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
I know you don't like me talking about the Great one... Great Gordon Brown..... but i do think he won't be up for any of those shananagans from Russia.
We will have to see how the talks go.
Just to clarify something, its actually the "Tsar Bomba" program. It was the world's largest Hydrogen Bomb, with a yield of about 50 megatonnes I think. The actual bomb was very real, and one was detonated in artic Russia in the late 50s raely 60s, I think its the most powerful weapon ever detonated in history to this day, so it was a real threat. I don't think it was ever superceded by any other single-warhead thermonucelar weapon, but the multiple warhead missles that were developed in the 1970s would have delivered a larger yield collectively. The Tsar Bomba program was eventally replaced as the weapon was far too large and unwieldy to be an effectively deliverable nuclear weapon, unfortunately we have far more effective nuclear weapons and delivery systems now, and they sit there waiting patiently until someone miscalculates.
I also said to Spot, that from my memory, America was the aggressor but then agreed with Spot that the threat to invade Cuba was only after Russia began siting missiles there.
I do know my history, i just don't google as much as i should or time allows me and i often go my memory.
What i meant by a Kennedy/Cuba crisis in this thread was a reference to a stand off, not so much a repeat of the actual invasion of the Bay of Pigs.
I know you don't like me talking about the Great one... Great Gordon Brown..... but i do think he won't be up for any of those shananagans from Russia.
We will have to see how the talks go.
Just to clarify something, its actually the "Tsar Bomba" program. It was the world's largest Hydrogen Bomb, with a yield of about 50 megatonnes I think. The actual bomb was very real, and one was detonated in artic Russia in the late 50s raely 60s, I think its the most powerful weapon ever detonated in history to this day, so it was a real threat. I don't think it was ever superceded by any other single-warhead thermonucelar weapon, but the multiple warhead missles that were developed in the 1970s would have delivered a larger yield collectively. The Tsar Bomba program was eventally replaced as the weapon was far too large and unwieldy to be an effectively deliverable nuclear weapon, unfortunately we have far more effective nuclear weapons and delivery systems now, and they sit there waiting patiently until someone miscalculates.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Coldwar/Armsrace update
gmc;1047571 wrote: Both sides saw sense. If they had not we would not be having this discussion. Not destroying the world is hardly the act of a fool. Kennedy did agree to withdraw missiles secretly-the russians kept it secret to allow him to save face and be seen ti be giving in. In actual fact I don't think hey did-although I would have to do some digging to confirm that either way.
There are a lot of once secret papers from that time that have past the moratorium period. Both Russian and American. Sometimes what you think happened actually didn't happen the way you think.
Only a complete idiot would want a nuclear war, deliberately provoking confrontation when there is no need for it is the act of an imbecile.
Who do you think will be the new leader of the labour party?
Hey, Oscar scores a point over Spot. I told him Kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from Turkey and he said he'd never heard that until he found the wiki link.
As for who the 'new' leader of the Labour Party......... You better get used to The Great Gordon's face haggis features, cos, he's going to be in your face for a long time yet. :p:p
There are a lot of once secret papers from that time that have past the moratorium period. Both Russian and American. Sometimes what you think happened actually didn't happen the way you think.
Only a complete idiot would want a nuclear war, deliberately provoking confrontation when there is no need for it is the act of an imbecile.
Who do you think will be the new leader of the labour party?
Hey, Oscar scores a point over Spot. I told him Kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from Turkey and he said he'd never heard that until he found the wiki link.
As for who the 'new' leader of the Labour Party......... You better get used to The Great Gordon's face haggis features, cos, he's going to be in your face for a long time yet. :p:p
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Galbally;1047700 wrote: Just to clarify something, its actually the "Tsar Bomba" program. It was the world's largest Hydrogen Bomb, with a yield of about 50 megatonnes I think. The actual bomb was very real, and one was detonated in artic Russia in the late 50s raely 60s, I think its the most powerful weapon ever detonated in history to this day, so it was a real threat. I don't think it was ever superceded by any other single-warhead thermonucelar weapon, but the multiple warhead missles that were developed in the 1970s would have delivered a larger yield collectively. The Tsar Bomba program was eventally replaced as the weapon was far too large and unwieldy to be an effectively deliverable nuclear weapon, unfortunately we have far more effective nuclear weapons and delivery systems now, and they sit there waiting patiently until someone miscalculates.
Thank you for the history lesson, but i did actually know all about the Tsar Bomba Programme. The point why i refered to the programme was re: another thread Spot and i were on where he doubted my saying that Kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from Turkey.
The programme was a test, nothing more and Kennedy fell for it and backed down to Russia.
I shall be going on skype later to my pals in Poland.
Thank you for the history lesson, but i did actually know all about the Tsar Bomba Programme. The point why i refered to the programme was re: another thread Spot and i were on where he doubted my saying that Kennedy 'secretly' withdrew missiles from Turkey.
The programme was a test, nothing more and Kennedy fell for it and backed down to Russia.
I shall be going on skype later to my pals in Poland.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1047657 wrote: I don't know if Russia is trying to pressure Poland or the CR, she has tried to work with them. Example.
Russia laid down 2 concepts that she could live with in this matter.
1. Having Russian officers present at all times at the bases in Poland and Czech Rep.
This was rejected outright by both Poland and the Czech Rep with absolutely no pressure otherwise from the US.
2. Being part of an integrated ABM system for Eurasia. Russia has radar facilities with capable of seeing all the way to the Indian ocean in southern Russia, they are out of date but they just need to be updated.
Russias offer to use their Caucasus systems was rejected.
The proposal Russia came up with was far reaching, a GLOBAL ABM system that one day would stretch around the northern hemisphere. What really was unique about it was that the people who staffed it would have no affiliation with any country or governing body. Their only mission would be to deter the launch of nuclear armed missiles anywhere, anytime by anyone.
Quite a dream to say the least. I doubt it is even feasible in todays political climate.
Just who is Russia trying to pressure?
The instigator in this, the US.
Very definitely the US is the driver of this - why they wanted to waken the sleeping bear I have no idea but now they have we all have to live with the consequences.
I didn't realise that the Russians had offered a joint network - that sounds idea and provides all of the security that GWB claimed to be looking for. Unfortunately, as you say, no chance of them being take seriously
Russia laid down 2 concepts that she could live with in this matter.
1. Having Russian officers present at all times at the bases in Poland and Czech Rep.
This was rejected outright by both Poland and the Czech Rep with absolutely no pressure otherwise from the US.
2. Being part of an integrated ABM system for Eurasia. Russia has radar facilities with capable of seeing all the way to the Indian ocean in southern Russia, they are out of date but they just need to be updated.
Russias offer to use their Caucasus systems was rejected.
The proposal Russia came up with was far reaching, a GLOBAL ABM system that one day would stretch around the northern hemisphere. What really was unique about it was that the people who staffed it would have no affiliation with any country or governing body. Their only mission would be to deter the launch of nuclear armed missiles anywhere, anytime by anyone.
Quite a dream to say the least. I doubt it is even feasible in todays political climate.
Just who is Russia trying to pressure?
The instigator in this, the US.
Very definitely the US is the driver of this - why they wanted to waken the sleeping bear I have no idea but now they have we all have to live with the consequences.
I didn't realise that the Russians had offered a joint network - that sounds idea and provides all of the security that GWB claimed to be looking for. Unfortunately, as you say, no chance of them being take seriously
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1047627 wrote:
Considering the fact that the Europeans just don't seem to have the balls to stand up to the US and Britain and the Poles are half insane I think this is going to only get worse. Russia is moving stuff around, military stuff according to my friend. They are also training a lot more these last 2 3 months. Their military is overall more active.
Europeans need to get some spine and put a stop to this.
I can't clarify the way you have written this. Before i answer, do you mean that the Europeans don't have the balls to stand up to the US and Britain or are you saying Britain doesn't have the balls along with Europe?
Considering the fact that the Europeans just don't seem to have the balls to stand up to the US and Britain and the Poles are half insane I think this is going to only get worse. Russia is moving stuff around, military stuff according to my friend. They are also training a lot more these last 2 3 months. Their military is overall more active.
Europeans need to get some spine and put a stop to this.
I can't clarify the way you have written this. Before i answer, do you mean that the Europeans don't have the balls to stand up to the US and Britain or are you saying Britain doesn't have the balls along with Europe?
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1048187 wrote: It's yield was around 50 mt as you stated, it actually made a crater about 2 miles across that you can see from the air or on google earth. The bomb was originally designed for a 100 mt yield, it was scaled back due to fallout concerns.
It was a test regardless which Kennedy fell for the russian bluff. Is Obama going to do the same??
It was a test regardless which Kennedy fell for the russian bluff. Is Obama going to do the same??
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Coldwar/Armsrace update
This is interesting and could play a part before it all is over:
Vladimir Putin 'could return as Russian president next year'
Vladimir Putin 'could return as Russian president next year'
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1048195 wrote: I meant to say that continental europe needs to grow some gonads and tell the US and Britain to quit meddling in affairs in europe and affairs between europe and Russia.
I think that Britain is currently but a lap dog of the US.
I agree with you but where Britain has a flaw, is that we are part of the EU.
Poland is also part of the EU and American missiles are there, far too close to Russia for their liking. From what i can make of it, this is the problem Russia has.
I do believe Gordon brown is certainly the strongest leader in Europe and i'm waiting for the talks to see how he handles this with Russia. I don't believe he will back down and it could get to a stand off.
I suppose an ideal solution would be for russia to join the EU and for Britain to back them and remove all American missiles from EU countrie's. That would however place East against West and i can't see it ever happening.
My fear is Obama backing down to Russia, withdrawing missiles from Poland to appease the Russians and we'll have a stand off for sure.
I think that Britain is currently but a lap dog of the US.
I agree with you but where Britain has a flaw, is that we are part of the EU.
Poland is also part of the EU and American missiles are there, far too close to Russia for their liking. From what i can make of it, this is the problem Russia has.
I do believe Gordon brown is certainly the strongest leader in Europe and i'm waiting for the talks to see how he handles this with Russia. I don't believe he will back down and it could get to a stand off.
I suppose an ideal solution would be for russia to join the EU and for Britain to back them and remove all American missiles from EU countrie's. That would however place East against West and i can't see it ever happening.
My fear is Obama backing down to Russia, withdrawing missiles from Poland to appease the Russians and we'll have a stand off for sure.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1048204 wrote:
Obama would be stupid beyond belief not to listen to Russia. And absolutely nuts to provoke them.
I agree, so what is he going to do?
I just don't believe he is strong or experienced enough to deal with this. at least he has Biden's experience.
Obama would be stupid beyond belief not to listen to Russia. And absolutely nuts to provoke them.
I agree, so what is he going to do?
I just don't believe he is strong or experienced enough to deal with this. at least he has Biden's experience.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Coldwar/Armsrace update
oscar;1048210 wrote: I agree with you but where Britain has a flaw, is that we are part of the EU.
Poland is also part of the EU and American missiles are there, far too close to Russia for their liking. From what i can make of it, this is the problem Russia has.
I do believe Gordon brown is certainly the strongest leader in Europe and i'm waiting for the talks to see how he handles this with Russia. I don't believe he will back down and it could get to a stand off.
I suppose an ideal solution would be for russia to join the EU and for Britain to back them and remove all American missiles from EU countrie's. That would however place East against West and i can't see it ever happening.
My fear is Obama backing down to Russia, withdrawing missiles from Poland to appease the Russians and we'll have a stand off for sure.
Let me get this straight. You want Russia to join the EU, Britain to leave, and America to withdraw all missiles from the European theatre?
Any chance you might want to discuss this with your EU partners (such as France or Germany with whom you have a strategic military alliance called NATO) before you sail off in HMS Victory back to Portsmouth and close the gates there Nelson?
Perhaps you also believe that Australia, India, most of Africa, Canada, Hong Kong, Aden (who cares what the dervishes call it now), and various other countries should stop this commonwealth nonsense and get back into some sort of trading block centered on London, you know like an "Empire" or something, then you can teach the Russian Bear a lesson on the plains of Hindustan, on the way home you can give the Kaiser a biff on the nose, and teach those Frenchies whats what as well. By Jingo. :wah:
You are quite mad of course, you do realize this is what happens when you think that the Daily Mail is a highly intelligent newspaper, full of interesting insights into world politics; and not an utterly cynical rag, designed to appeal to the xenophobic delusions of the petty Borgeoiuse of the Home Counties, who are incapable of dealing with the reality of the 21st century and have decided to collectively retreat into an internalized emotional version of 19th century Britain that never existed in the first place.
No, on second thoughts your right, EU membership is where it all went wrong, DAMN THOSE EUROCRATS, ARGGH BLUSTER COUGH FUME!
Poland is also part of the EU and American missiles are there, far too close to Russia for their liking. From what i can make of it, this is the problem Russia has.
I do believe Gordon brown is certainly the strongest leader in Europe and i'm waiting for the talks to see how he handles this with Russia. I don't believe he will back down and it could get to a stand off.
I suppose an ideal solution would be for russia to join the EU and for Britain to back them and remove all American missiles from EU countrie's. That would however place East against West and i can't see it ever happening.
My fear is Obama backing down to Russia, withdrawing missiles from Poland to appease the Russians and we'll have a stand off for sure.
Let me get this straight. You want Russia to join the EU, Britain to leave, and America to withdraw all missiles from the European theatre?
Any chance you might want to discuss this with your EU partners (such as France or Germany with whom you have a strategic military alliance called NATO) before you sail off in HMS Victory back to Portsmouth and close the gates there Nelson?
Perhaps you also believe that Australia, India, most of Africa, Canada, Hong Kong, Aden (who cares what the dervishes call it now), and various other countries should stop this commonwealth nonsense and get back into some sort of trading block centered on London, you know like an "Empire" or something, then you can teach the Russian Bear a lesson on the plains of Hindustan, on the way home you can give the Kaiser a biff on the nose, and teach those Frenchies whats what as well. By Jingo. :wah:
You are quite mad of course, you do realize this is what happens when you think that the Daily Mail is a highly intelligent newspaper, full of interesting insights into world politics; and not an utterly cynical rag, designed to appeal to the xenophobic delusions of the petty Borgeoiuse of the Home Counties, who are incapable of dealing with the reality of the 21st century and have decided to collectively retreat into an internalized emotional version of 19th century Britain that never existed in the first place.
No, on second thoughts your right, EU membership is where it all went wrong, DAMN THOSE EUROCRATS, ARGGH BLUSTER COUGH FUME!
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
Coldwar/Armsrace update
Galbally;1048366 wrote: Let me get this straight. You want Russia to join the EU, Britain to leave, and America to withdraw all missiles from the European theatre?
Any chance you might want to discuss this with your EU partners (such as France or Germany with whom you have a strategic military alliance called NATO) before you sail off in HMS Victory back to Portsmouth and close the gates there Nelson?
Perhaps you also believe that Australia, India, most of Africa, Canada, Hong Kong, Aden (who cares what the dervishes call it now), and various other countries should stop this commonwealth nonsense and get back into some sort of trading block centered on London, you know like an "Empire" or something, then you can teach the Russian Bear a lesson on the plains of Hindustan, on the way home you can give the Kaiser a biff on the nose, and teach those Frenchies whats what as well. By Jingo. :wah:
You are quite mad of course, you do realize this is what happens when you think that the Daily Mail is a highly intelligent newspaper, full of interesting insights into world politics; and not an utterly cynical rag, designed to appeal to the xenophobic delusions of the petty Borgeoiuse of the Home Counties, who are incapable of dealing with the reality of the 21st century and have decided to collectively retreat into an internalized emotional version of 19th century Britain that never existed in the first place.
No, on second thoughts your right, EU membership is where it all went wrong, DAMN THOSE EUROCRATS, ARGGH BLUSTER COUGH FUME!
No, you haven't got it straight galbally. I said that i SUPPOSE it'd be ideal if Russia joined the EU and Britain backed them, removing American missiles from Europe. When i said the word SUPPOSE.. i was talking in the third sense. I SUPPOSE that would be a brilliant call for Obama because then he wouldn't have to deal with any nasty going's on around the world while he sucks up to Russia the same as Kennedy did.
You should know me well enough by now to know that i am the war mongerer. I hope Gordon Brown tells Russia to swivel and take Obama with him. What's next?? Russia insists the UK removes it's Polaris??
Is it not a co-incidence that the bear raises it's head when ever America has a weak leader in power?
Unfortunately for all of us, Bush is not buried yet. We have until the end of january and a lot can happen between then. As usual, it will probably take Gordon Brown to sort this crap out as well.
Once again, as soon as we dis-agree on anything.. you attack the Daily Mail.
Any chance you might want to discuss this with your EU partners (such as France or Germany with whom you have a strategic military alliance called NATO) before you sail off in HMS Victory back to Portsmouth and close the gates there Nelson?
Perhaps you also believe that Australia, India, most of Africa, Canada, Hong Kong, Aden (who cares what the dervishes call it now), and various other countries should stop this commonwealth nonsense and get back into some sort of trading block centered on London, you know like an "Empire" or something, then you can teach the Russian Bear a lesson on the plains of Hindustan, on the way home you can give the Kaiser a biff on the nose, and teach those Frenchies whats what as well. By Jingo. :wah:
You are quite mad of course, you do realize this is what happens when you think that the Daily Mail is a highly intelligent newspaper, full of interesting insights into world politics; and not an utterly cynical rag, designed to appeal to the xenophobic delusions of the petty Borgeoiuse of the Home Counties, who are incapable of dealing with the reality of the 21st century and have decided to collectively retreat into an internalized emotional version of 19th century Britain that never existed in the first place.
No, on second thoughts your right, EU membership is where it all went wrong, DAMN THOSE EUROCRATS, ARGGH BLUSTER COUGH FUME!
No, you haven't got it straight galbally. I said that i SUPPOSE it'd be ideal if Russia joined the EU and Britain backed them, removing American missiles from Europe. When i said the word SUPPOSE.. i was talking in the third sense. I SUPPOSE that would be a brilliant call for Obama because then he wouldn't have to deal with any nasty going's on around the world while he sucks up to Russia the same as Kennedy did.
You should know me well enough by now to know that i am the war mongerer. I hope Gordon Brown tells Russia to swivel and take Obama with him. What's next?? Russia insists the UK removes it's Polaris??
Is it not a co-incidence that the bear raises it's head when ever America has a weak leader in power?
Unfortunately for all of us, Bush is not buried yet. We have until the end of january and a lot can happen between then. As usual, it will probably take Gordon Brown to sort this crap out as well.
Once again, as soon as we dis-agree on anything.. you attack the Daily Mail.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Coldwar/Armsrace update
posted by scrat
I think that Britain is currently but a lap dog of the US. :-5:-5:-5
Wish i didn't agree with you. On the other hand most people here are not too happy about it either.
Scrat;1048566 wrote: I guess the MPs in Britain want to talk about it now. We all know how that will go considering the will of the people and all the respect that gets.
Our MP's are a depressing bunch. If intellect was a power station right now we have a 40 watt bulb in power. Our electoral system is badly in need of reform effectively two thirds of the population are disenfranchised.
Luckily most of us DON'T read the daily mail. Hopefully with Obama some of the sabre rattling nonsense will be stopped.
I think that Britain is currently but a lap dog of the US. :-5:-5:-5
Wish i didn't agree with you. On the other hand most people here are not too happy about it either.
Scrat;1048566 wrote: I guess the MPs in Britain want to talk about it now. We all know how that will go considering the will of the people and all the respect that gets.
Our MP's are a depressing bunch. If intellect was a power station right now we have a 40 watt bulb in power. Our electoral system is badly in need of reform effectively two thirds of the population are disenfranchised.
Luckily most of us DON'T read the daily mail. Hopefully with Obama some of the sabre rattling nonsense will be stopped.
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1048566 wrote: I guess the MPs in Britain want to talk about it now. We all know how that will go considering the will of the people and all the respect that gets.
These are numpty 'back benchers' who have no political influence on our Prime Minister and Forign secretary. When they say it.. I'll believe it.
To be honest.. I did expect some kind of announcement from our Prime Minister that he may back Obama's retreat from Iraq.
Then, as no annoucement has come.. I was assurred that Gordon Brown is no 'fall guy'
These are numpty 'back benchers' who have no political influence on our Prime Minister and Forign secretary. When they say it.. I'll believe it.
To be honest.. I did expect some kind of announcement from our Prime Minister that he may back Obama's retreat from Iraq.
Then, as no annoucement has come.. I was assurred that Gordon Brown is no 'fall guy'
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1050029 wrote:
I have never understood British politics. I was stuck in Heathrow airport a few years ago and watching the local news. Some guy in a suit was making a big speech about immigration and kept using the phrases "being British" "be British" ect ect.
Kind of a mystery.
The guy in the suit would have been another numpty 'backbencher' or an opposition M.P trying to get publicity. The only words worth listening to these days are Gordon Brown's. Obama will not have an easy ride with him.
I have never understood British politics. I was stuck in Heathrow airport a few years ago and watching the local news. Some guy in a suit was making a big speech about immigration and kept using the phrases "being British" "be British" ect ect.
Kind of a mystery.
The guy in the suit would have been another numpty 'backbencher' or an opposition M.P trying to get publicity. The only words worth listening to these days are Gordon Brown's. Obama will not have an easy ride with him.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
gmc;1048619 wrote: posted by scrat
:-5:-5:-5
Luckily most of us DON'T read the daily mail. Hopefully with Obama some of the sabre rattling nonsense will be stopped.
Are you having a pop at any one in particular when you refer to the Daily Mail ??
:-5:-5:-5
Luckily most of us DON'T read the daily mail. Hopefully with Obama some of the sabre rattling nonsense will be stopped.
Are you having a pop at any one in particular when you refer to the Daily Mail ??
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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Coldwar/Armsrace update
Scrat;1050064 wrote: They had better do something. Here in America the economy is shedding jobs like a persian cat with a bad case of mange sheds hair.
We borrow billions of dollars from China to pour into the ME when we should be using it to better our own country. This has to stop.
I agree with you.
We are losing jobs too but since Gordon Brown dealt with the financial crisis (I won't bore everyone again), we have seen fuel, groceries and Interest rates take a dive.
Gordon Brown has been critised by the opposition for his policy to borrow more money so that Britain doesn't fall into a recession but really, there is no other way. The Opposition could not have any other alternative than to not borrow and impose cutbacks which would certainly see higher taxes, lost jobs and zero investment into education and health.
We borrow billions of dollars from China to pour into the ME when we should be using it to better our own country. This has to stop.
I agree with you.
We are losing jobs too but since Gordon Brown dealt with the financial crisis (I won't bore everyone again), we have seen fuel, groceries and Interest rates take a dive.
Gordon Brown has been critised by the opposition for his policy to borrow more money so that Britain doesn't fall into a recession but really, there is no other way. The Opposition could not have any other alternative than to not borrow and impose cutbacks which would certainly see higher taxes, lost jobs and zero investment into education and health.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
Coldwar/Armsrace update
oscar;1050076 wrote: Are you having a pop at any one in particular when you refer to the Daily Mail ??
:yh_bigsmi
I get fed up with closet right wing pundits that keep quoting the daily mail as if it was actually an authority on anything. It's a rag with pretensions of intellectual grandeur and having the best interests of the people at heart. It's a right wing fascist newspaper and someone who purports to be a former member of the labour party should know better.
Gordon brown is an arsehole. If he had had the integrity and common sense to resign along with Robin Cook it would have stopped Tony Blair cold and we would never have got involved in Iraq. Who knows he might have been prime minister sooner. If he'd had an election last November he would have been kicked out. Labour MP's and tory as well just want to hang on to their jobs and expense accounts and toe the party line in the hope of further advancement, it's a culturte that is doing this country a great deal of harm. I'm thinking of getting a I hate Blair and brown more than Thatcher tee shirt printed.
These are numpty 'back benchers' who have no political influence on our Prime Minister and Forign secretary. When they say it.. I'll believe it.
To be honest.. I did expect some kind of announcement from our Prime Minister that he may back Obama's retreat from Iraq.
Then, as no annoucement has come.. I was assurred that Gordon Brown is no 'fall guy'
Those numpty back benchers have the power to stop anything they don't like. They have just been convinced that they don't matter.
posted by scrat
I have never understood British politics. I was stuck in Heathrow airport a few years ago and watching the local news. Some guy in a suit was making a big speech about immigration and kept using the phrases "being British" "be British" ect ect.
Just ask and we will try and explain. In many ways it is a lot more discursive than american politics-that be british comment raises the hackles of every scot, irishman, welshman and northern englishman in the land as it almost invariably means be more middle and southern English. To hav Gordon Brown banging the same drum is laughable. We're a united kingdom doesn't mean we are all prepared to be the same.
:yh_bigsmi
I get fed up with closet right wing pundits that keep quoting the daily mail as if it was actually an authority on anything. It's a rag with pretensions of intellectual grandeur and having the best interests of the people at heart. It's a right wing fascist newspaper and someone who purports to be a former member of the labour party should know better.
Gordon brown is an arsehole. If he had had the integrity and common sense to resign along with Robin Cook it would have stopped Tony Blair cold and we would never have got involved in Iraq. Who knows he might have been prime minister sooner. If he'd had an election last November he would have been kicked out. Labour MP's and tory as well just want to hang on to their jobs and expense accounts and toe the party line in the hope of further advancement, it's a culturte that is doing this country a great deal of harm. I'm thinking of getting a I hate Blair and brown more than Thatcher tee shirt printed.
These are numpty 'back benchers' who have no political influence on our Prime Minister and Forign secretary. When they say it.. I'll believe it.
To be honest.. I did expect some kind of announcement from our Prime Minister that he may back Obama's retreat from Iraq.
Then, as no annoucement has come.. I was assurred that Gordon Brown is no 'fall guy'
Those numpty back benchers have the power to stop anything they don't like. They have just been convinced that they don't matter.
posted by scrat
I have never understood British politics. I was stuck in Heathrow airport a few years ago and watching the local news. Some guy in a suit was making a big speech about immigration and kept using the phrases "being British" "be British" ect ect.
Just ask and we will try and explain. In many ways it is a lot more discursive than american politics-that be british comment raises the hackles of every scot, irishman, welshman and northern englishman in the land as it almost invariably means be more middle and southern English. To hav Gordon Brown banging the same drum is laughable. We're a united kingdom doesn't mean we are all prepared to be the same.