ForumGarden

ohhh dunno Fuzzy i didnt know we had that type of system here,, mind i dont go to the police station. if we have had say our car damaged or stolen,, or sothing similar,, not really an emergency we just ring the police,,, and it wouldne matter if we went there instead of ringing, they would still just say oh ok ,, hang on we will give you a crime number for your insurance:rolleyes: thats it,, thats the extent of the help we usually get:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

The Police Force (sorry, Service - it sounds more 'customer friendly' :rolleyes:) in my area has for a long time now not routinely manned all police stations, by that I mean civilian staff for talking to callers. The smaller towns have part-time cover or no station at all.



There is usually a phone that is accessible from outside that connects to the control room where you will talk either to a police officer or a civilian operator. Used to be only for overnight use but hey ho now it's available all day.



We no longer are able to call our local nick, we have to call a centralised number and speak to a call taker (civilian). The main objections I have with this is that the number is not a local call rate, it's quite expensive to call and you have to wait ages sometimes for someone to answer the phone, they then have no local knowledge of where you are calling from as they could be from anywhere - if all the call takers are busy the calls are diverted to the neighbouring force and so on.



I personally have no problem with reporting minor crime over the phone however that may be because of my years working with the police I'm quite realistic about the chances of some type of crime being solved or of anyone being prosecuted. However I'm not happy that civilian operators however well trained they are making the decision on what is minor and what isn't.



Yes, the 999 emergency number still gets answered really quickly and receives prompt attention but I remember answering the phone in my local nick to people who really should have phoned 999 but didn't because they weren't sure that what they needed to report really was urgent - that then becomes a problem when they are hanging on the phone for ages. It was easy for me to say hang on a second and get on the radio and call an officer to deal with the incident.



I've long said that many many jobs within the police could be passed on to civilian staff but I feel that that should only be following up routine enquiries, perhaps door to door calls for witnesses, taking reports of non-injury traffic accidents, taking some statements for low-level crime - thereby freeing up the time of police officers for patrol etc.



So I suppose I'm saying that I think what they're trying to introduce over with you FB is a bad idea, keep policing personal then you keep policing by consent.







Oh, and *Immy for Home Secretary* - I'd sort them all out!!

I just don't even want to get started on this one :-5 :-5

oscar;1056949 wrote: I just don't even want to get started on this one :-5 :-5


Why? It's just as was described.

In bigger towns there are 24 hour police stations, yes with civillians on the desk Trained to handle all enquiries, with full officer back up. They act as a reception type role and so much more. But Officers are also based at these stations, who come in to take statements, and deal with case paperwork.



If you have a routine crime report to fill, you either go to the station, or phone the crimedesk, where there are a mixture of police officers and civillians to deal. All fully trained in good crime reporting systems.

It is better to have the officers on the streets dealing with crime. Whilst very well trained civillians handle the admin and more routine side of things.

I don't see any problem with the system.

It is a shame when they close police stations, in some areas, or have satellite stations on limited hours. But theses stations do have officers there, just not a front desk in operation for a period of time.

Also ex police staff who worked this system and found it to be successful.

[QUOTE=Violetmay;1056991]It is better to have the officers on the streets dealing with crime. Whilst very well trained civillians handle the admin and more routine side of things.

I don't see any problem with the system.



Admin simply do and never will have the same training as a qualified officer. It is government policy to keep crime figures down. One of the ways this is done, is to encourage people to phone a number at their local police station. These calls are not logged. There-fore, the true crime figures are not reported giving the public a false representation.

No 'admin' has the right to 'decide' weather a crime is 'worthy' or not.

They are not in a position to know a history of a trouble-spot and should not be in positions where they could in effect endanger live's.

Some-one phoning in something that may appear to be trivial can get overlooked when an expperienced officer can detect an underlying danger. I.e. What can seem like some oldie moaning that kids are outside his house could turn out to be an affray with possible serious injurys from a gang fight. It is up to experienced officers to judge the nature of the call and not some 'admin worker'. Even trained officers get it wrong.

The only way to have trained officers on the phones and out on the street is for the government to pour more funding and better pay conditions into policing. Civilains in police work are nothing short of dangerous.

It is a POLICE FORCE not a civilian force. Simple

oscar;1057009 wrote: [QUOTE=Violetmay;1056991]It is better to have the officers on the streets dealing with crime. Whilst very well trained civillians handle the admin and more routine side of things.

I don't see any problem with the system.



Admin simply do and never will have the same training as a qualified officer. It is government policy to keep crime figures down. One of the ways this is done, is to encourage people to phone a number at their local police station. These calls are not logged. There-fore, the true crime figures are not reported giving the public a false representation.

No 'admin' has the right to 'decide' weather a crime is 'worthy' or not.

They are not in a position to know a history of a trouble-spot and should not be in positions where they could in effect endanger live's.

Some-one phoning in something that may appear to be trivial can get overlooked when an expperienced officer can detect an underlying danger. I.e. What can seem like some oldie moaning that kids are outside his house could turn out to be an affray with possible serious injurys from a gang fight. It is up to experienced officers to judge the nature of the call and not some 'admin worker'. Even trained officers get it wrong.

The only way to have trained officers on the phones and out on the street is for the government to pour more funding and better pay conditions into policing. Civilains in police work are nothing short of dangerous.

It is a POLICE FORCE not a civilian force. Simple




As I said, I worked in this system with civillians and officers alike. We all reported to a sarg' and an inspector, they had the final say how it was dealt. It was always an officer who ran the shift.

Civillians do not do the decision making, they report to someone. They handle accidents, lost dogs, property, thefts, harassment, vehicle checks for officers, person checks. They are not actually admin per say, they are support staff. EAch department has it's own admin department, and there is also a formal admin department at headquarters who deal with all the Area commanders stuff. Anything that requires an officer to deal is clear. A crime of robbery, assault, rape, etc etc is always dealt with by an allocated officer who is assigned by their sargeant.

No of course they do not have the same training, they do not leave the police station, they have a different training appropriate to performing a much needed support role. And it works.

Calls are logged to crime or help desks, each enquiry is logged onto a computer, it is either given an incident reference called a Unique Reference Number, or URN, then if information an information reference, if a crime a crime reference number. The Officer in charge of that shift allocates it accordingly to whomever they feel should deal with it. So as stolen bicycle report, a civillian member of staff can deal, if no violence involved. A burglary/ theft/ robbery a uniformed officer or C.I.D.

No one said it is a civillian force, it is a police force/service made up of civvies and operational officers.

I do not know your background, and you could be a disgruntled police officer or ex police officer who resents the introduction of civvie's into the service, or you could be a member of the public with strong views.

But having worked for over 10 years in a police force/service think your comments are insulting to civillians who would never presume to be anything more than their status, and know when to do their job and let the uniformed officers perform theirs.

And no civillian would ever claim to be a fully qualified uniformed officer. They have a different job, different training but the same hierarchy in place, are attached to a shift of officers and work with them very sucessfully.

Violetmay;1057139 wrote: [QUOTE=oscar;1057009]



As I said, I worked in this system with civillians and officers alike. We all reported to a sarg' and an inspector, they had the final say how it was dealt. It was always an officer who ran the shift.

Civillians do not do the decision making, they report to someone. They handle accidents, lost dogs, property, thefts, harassment, vehicle checks for officers, person checks. They are not actually admin per say, they are support staff. EAch department has it's own admin department, and there is also a formal admin department at headquarters who deal with all the Area commanders stuff. Anything that requires an officer to deal is clear. A crime of robbery, assault, rape, etc etc is always dealt with by an allocated officer who is assigned by their sargeant.

No of course they do not have the same training, they do not leave the police station, they have a different training appropriate to performing a much needed support role. And it works.

Calls are logged to crime or help desks, each enquiry is logged onto a computer, it is either given an incident reference called a Unique Reference Number, or URN, then if information an information reference, if a crime a crime reference number. The Officer in charge of that shift allocates it accordingly to whomever they feel should deal with it. So as stolen bicycle report, a civillian member of staff can deal, if no violence involved. A burglary/ theft/ robbery a uniformed officer or C.I.D.

No one said it is a civillian force, it is a police force/service made up of civvies and operational officers.

I do not know your background, and you could be a disgruntled police officer or ex police officer who resents the introduction of civvie's into the service, or you could be a member of the public with strong views.

But having worked for over 10 years in a police force/service think your comments are insulting to civillians who would never presume to be anything more than their status, and know when to do their job and let the uniformed officers perform theirs.

And no civillian would ever claim to be a fully qualified uniformed officer. They have a different job, different training but the same hierarchy in place, are attached to a shift of officers and work with them very sucessfully.
Working in a police force/service does not make you right.

No, you do not know my role with police but i bet it's a little more imformed than you right now.

Just as you were quick to judge that i may be a police officer who does not want the interfernce of civilians in the job, then i assume you are a civlian who'd really like to be a a qualified officer.

For the recored, calls to local police stations are not logged. I don't know where you get your imformation from but you are wrong. At all our police/resident meetings, the public are urged to phone the 0845 number if it involves criminal damage or theft as this is the only way they can get a log number to claim on their Insurence. They can not get this phoning the local police station nor is their crime logged.

The police force have recently taken to employing DDO's. These are civilians who are able to book in, strip search and charge a detainee. It is a hair brained scheme that was imposed before any-one actually did the math. The result is high profile lawyers getting defendents off simply because, legally, a civillian had absolutely no right to charge a detainee let alone search them. Infact, there will likely be many a law suit filed against the police in the near future by defendents who have been dealt with by civilians.

It is a ridiculous idea. It doesn't even take into account the personnel skills needed when dealing with the public.

I urge any-one out there.. when phoning the police and finding yourself speaking to a civillian.. Insist you speak to a qualified Officer... or hang up.

oscar;1057168 wrote: [QUOTE=Violetmay;1057139]

Working in a police force/service does not make you right.

No, you do not know my role with police but i bet it's a little more imformed than you right now.

Just as you were quick to judge that i may be a police officer who does not want the interfernce of civilians in the job, then i assume you are a civlian who'd really like to be a a qualified officer.

For the recored, calls to local police stations are not logged. I don't know where you get your imformation from but you are wrong. At all our police/resident meetings, the public are urged to phone the 0845 number if it involves criminal damage or theft as this is the only way they can get a log number to claim on their Insurence. They can not get this phoning the local police station nor is their crime logged.

The police force have recently taken to employing DDO's. These are civilians who are able to book in, strip search and charge a detainee. It is a hair brained scheme that was imposed before any-one actually did the math. The result is high profile lawyers getting defendents off simply because, legally, a civillian had absolutely no right to charge a detainee let alone search them. Infact, there will likely be many a law suit filed against the police in the near future by defendents who have been dealt with by civilians.

It is a ridiculous idea. It doesn't even take into account the personnel skills needed when dealing with the public.

I urge any-one out there.. when phoning the police and finding yourself speaking to a civillian.. Insist you speak to a qualified Officer... or hang up.


No I am not a civillian wanting to be an officer. I was a civillian who enjoyed the role I describe as above. We did not peform the duties you describe only uniformed staff fulfilled these roles. We had no custodial duties. We were very much support staff.



I did not say working in that environment made me right. I was speaking from my recent career experience.

I am sorry the scheme adopted by your area is not working and sounds from your description to be ineffective and open to abuse legally.

The services I worked in were police first, civillian in a support role who did a good job. And where I live now I have no complaints of the system here.

What I would say in defence of these DDO's whatever they are, is they are only doing the job they are paid to and trained to as designated by the uniformed hierarchy and ultimately chief of police in that area.

Violetmay;1057188 wrote: [QUOTE=oscar;1057168]



No I am not a civillian wanting to be an officer. I was a civillian who enjoyed the role I describe as above. We did not peform the duties you describe only uniformed staff fulfilled these roles. We had no custodial duties. We were very much support staff.



I did not say working in that environment made me right. I was speaking from my recent career experience.

I am sorry the scheme adopted by your area is not working and sounds from your description to be ineffective and open to abuse legally.

The services I worked in were police first, civillian in a support role who did a good job. And where I live now I have no complaints of the system here.

What I would say in defence of these DDO's whatever they are, is they are only doing the job they are paid to and trained to as designated by the uniformed hierarchy and ultimately chief of police in that area.


From your last post, you are completely out of touch with what is happening in this country. For example, are you actually aware that Criminal Damage has in effecy been 'de-criminalised'?? It is dealt with by on the spot fines needing no appearence before the courts.

I never said at all that a scheme adopted by my area, has not worked.

The signing of DDO's is a government move which was put into practice before they checked the legalitie's. Defendants are getting off and taking civil action against the police simply because the civilians employed by police to carry out some of their dutie's such as charging, is actually illegal and has no standing in a court of law. Only a qualified officer can detain, charge and searc a defendant.

I don't care if these 'civillians' report to a SGt or the Chief of Police, they have no right legally or morally to do the job.

Are you saying next that civillains should answer paramedic calls and assess weather some-one needs an ambulance or not? The same with the Fire Brigade and the Life boat resue?

It is people who endorse hair-brained schemes like these that are under-mining the very fabric of the Police Force. Instead, we should be campaigning for more officers and better pay.

It is people who endorse hair-brained schemes like these that are under-mining the very fabric of the Police Force. Instead, we should be campaigning for more officers and better pay.



Instead of Blunkett's Bobbies (PCSO's), or lowering the grading of cannabis??

oscar;1057205 wrote: [QUOTE=Violetmay;1057188]

From your last post, you are completely out of touch with what is happening in this country. For example, are you actually aware that Criminal Damage has in effecy been 'de-criminalised'?? It is dealt with by on the spot fines needing no appearence before the courts.

I never said at all that a scheme adopted by my area, has not worked.

The signing of DDO's is a government move which was put into practice before they checked the legalitie's. Defendants are getting off and taking civil action against the police simply because the civilians employed by police to carry out some of their dutie's such as charging, is actually illegal and has no standing in a court of law. Only a qualified officer can detain, charge and searc a defendant.

I don't care if these 'civillians' report to a SGt or the Chief of Police, they have no right legally or morally to do the job.

Are you saying next that civillains should answer paramedic calls and assess weather some-one needs an ambulance or not? The same with the Fire Brigade and the Life boat resue?

It is people who endorse hair-brained schemes like these that are under-mining the very fabric of the Police Force. Instead, we should be campaigning for more officers and better pay.


I am not out of touch, as I said I commented on what is my recent experience in my area, as a member of staff and member of public. These are my findings, my experiences. Yes I am aware of the change in law in criminal damage. And this was not a good move at all. And remember the introduction of the spot fines, and also one of the new target measuring ideas introduced.

I agree that DDO's do not have any rights to be carrying out these duties but who is instructing them to? Who is at fault for putting it in their job description? That surely is the issue. If someone see's job advertised within the police, a desk job, a DDO job, in this climate of needing a job, surely they are entitled to apply for it, and receive training, instruction and duties as defined by their superiors. It is not their moral or legal failure in doing this and not them the complaint or issue has to be taken up with, it is their superiors.

They don't employ just anyone, the entry requirements interviews are stringent and the training in my experience thorough. Again I can only speak for myself. I was trained to use all the computer systems necessary, thorough first aid, conflict resolution, assertiveness, self defence (which yes I did have to use). And this took the best part of a year to do, and was also ongoing over a 10 year period with regular updates. And this was just desk officer training. At no point did it involve the arrest, detention, or stop and search, or custody check. We were not in any way shape or form uniformed regulars, we were very much support staff and happy that way. Our restrictions and boundaries very clearly laid out.

Civillians do take emergency calls via the phone and dispatch ambulances, [yes I did that job too] ,and fire crews in the emergency services, with the supervision and instruction of a senior member of staff. The training in these jobs is also intense and thorough. The radio operator or call handler is not responsible for dispatch but the one who records the details live to a motorola computer system, or similar, the officer dispatches the crew. The radio operator has to stay calm, reassure, and yes has training in first aid to give emergency advice as per their training. I cannot speak for the fire service but know from friends who do work there, it is similar. Fire officers dispatch the engines.

I agree we need more police officers and better pay and conditions. I saw cuts in recruitment, salary issues being debated, the increase in paperwork, the loopholes found in paperwork by cps to not take a case to court and for defence lawyers to use if it did make it. I have many friends still in the emergency services still working in these conditions.

I do agree with your frustration at the way things are going. And respect your ability to debate. I do however sense that this is getting personal in that you are intimating I am out of touch, a fact I have discussed at my opening of this reply. I have merely reported my experiences professionally and personally. This is the only standpoint anyone of us can debate from. I am willing to listen to both sides, and acknowledge my agreement with someone, do not set out to argue, and read and re=read your posts.

I actually agree with you on many points you have made that if in your experience these are the issues and facts. I respect that. But please do not tell me I am out of touch, or a want to be police officer when I am neither of these things, you do not know me, and have no right to make such an assumption. And for the record I am not either of these things. Just someone who worked very hard in service style jobs to support front line staff, and took my job very seriously along with my colleagues after thorough training.

Feel free to rip me apart if you wish, but I think I have more than explained myself to you, more than perhaps I needed to. I am not actually your enemy.

Imladris;1057833 wrote: It is people who endorse hair-brained schemes like these that are under-mining the very fabric of the Police Force. Instead, we should be campaigning for more officers and better pay.



Instead of Blunkett's Bobbies (PCSO's), or lowering the grading of cannabis??




Blunkett is without doubt a tosser. He has damaged the Police Force and hopefully in time, his actions can be retified under the Labour Government.

I do not agree with PCSO's. I think that within the police Force, they can be used for arbitrary purposes i.e. minor tiffs between neighbours but in reality, they are totally useless in any other situation. To be Frank, I have absolutely no respect for them where i live. The local kids have no respect for them. They laugh in their faces and know that they have no power of arrest. By the time they call for back up, the offender is long gone.

The only solution in my eyes to the farce that we call policing, is to invest money into the police force recruiting good old fashioned officers patrolling a beat.

We need to take away Government imposed targets and revert back to what the police actually are, which is civilians in uniform there to protect the public.

The government does not pay the police wages. The government needs to remember that and so do the police.

The statistics for 'gung ho' officers that are purely target driven being investigated after complaints from the public is increasing yearly.

Performance related officers do nothing for policing but drive a further wedge of mis-trust and dislike by the public. If the government wants to re-build the bridges with the public, they need to strip officers of hard text book driven targets and bring about more investigation instead of notches on their truncheons.

Tossers like David Blunkett harm the government as well as the police force.

Violetmay;1057840 wrote: [QUOTE=oscar;1057205]



I am not out of touch, as I said I commented on what is my recent experience in my area, as a member of staff and member of public. These are my findings, my experiences. Yes I am aware of the change in law in criminal damage. And this was not a good move at all. And remember the introduction of the spot fines, and also one of the new target measuring ideas introduced.

I agree that DDO's do not have any rights to be carrying out these duties but who is instructing them to? Who is at fault for putting it in their job description? That surely is the issue. If someone see's job advertised within the police, a desk job, a DDO job, in this climate of needing a job, surely they are entitled to apply for it, and receive training, instruction and duties as defined by their superiors. It is not their moral or legal failure in doing this and not them the complaint or issue has to be taken up with, it is their superiors.

They don't employ just anyone, the entry requirements interviews are stringent and the training in my experience thorough. Again I can only speak for myself. I was trained to use all the computer systems necessary, thorough first aid, conflict resolution, assertiveness, self defence (which yes I did have to use). And this took the best part of a year to do, and was also ongoing over a 10 year period with regular updates. And this was just desk officer training. At no point did it involve the arrest, detention, or stop and search, or custody check. We were not in any way shape or form uniformed regulars, we were very much support staff and happy that way. Our restrictions and boundaries very clearly laid out.

Civillians do take emergency calls via the phone and dispatch ambulances, [yes I did that job too] ,and fire crews in the emergency services, with the supervision and instruction of a senior member of staff. The training in these jobs is also intense and thorough. The radio operator or call handler is not responsible for dispatch but the one who records the details live to a motorola computer system, or similar, the officer dispatches the crew. The radio operator has to stay calm, reassure, and yes has training in first aid to give emergency advice as per their training. I cannot speak for the fire service but know from friends who do work there, it is similar. Fire officers dispatch the engines.

I agree we need more police officers and better pay and conditions. I saw cuts in recruitment, salary issues being debated, the increase in paperwork, the loopholes found in paperwork by cps to not take a case to court and for defence lawyers to use if it did make it. I have many friends still in the emergency services still working in these conditions.

I do agree with your frustration at the way things are going. And respect your ability to debate. I do however sense that this is getting personal in that you are intimating I am out of touch, a fact I have discussed at my opening of this reply. I have merely reported my experiences professionally and personally. This is the only standpoint anyone of us can debate from. I am willing to listen to both sides, and acknowledge my agreement with someone, do not set out to argue, and read and re=read your posts.

I actually agree with you on many points you have made that if in your experience these are the issues and facts. I respect that. But please do not tell me I am out of touch, or a want to be police officer when I am neither of these things, you do not know me, and have no right to make such an assumption. And for the record I am not either of these things. Just someone who worked very hard in service style jobs to support front line staff, and took my job very seriously along with my colleagues after thorough training.

Feel free to rip me apart if you wish, but I think I have more than explained myself to you, more than perhaps I needed to. I am not actually your enemy.


My apologie's if you feel that i was ripping you apart. I can not go into details but i have issue's with government and policing that i strive to change. I can not do this over-night and i have to make a down right nuisence of myself on behalf of every-one who feels as strongly as i do. My views may be biased, i accept that and my fight continue's.

Every where i go in the police force, i see blame. The call centres blame the officers. The officers blame the call centre's. Lower ranked officers blame their superiors. Superiors blame government. No-one is willing to actually take any blame.

Officers are so target driven and within the realms of being politically correct that standards of policing have gone down the tiolet.

In my humble opinion, throwing civilians at the job is not the answer and i do take on board what you are saying about the training.

the **** up over appointing DDO's to book in detainee's, search and charge them is primarily down to government. However, police forces over the country snapped up this idea to basically keep within funding. Cases where a defendent has been charged by a civillian, are now being lauhed out of court.

Common sense has gone out of the window and text book targets brought in. The CPS is in direct confliction with policing targets. Very often, a real offender will get off being prosecuted due to the CPS feeling a case is not strong enough when a PC may have worked his balls off to charge the offender, yet on the other hand, you have 'gung ho cops' arresting without proof.

I totally agree with the MP for Kensington that the only way forward, is a massive injection of government funding to put qualified officers into the force and offer better pay and incentives, not targets.