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I was having some more ideas, I know, I know.

Anyways, I was thinking about the way the current crises are effecting international politics and the changes that are underway in all relationships, and I had an idea.

If I was involved in British politics (which I am not I am Irish, but anyway); it occurs to me that Britain needs to radically realign itself in terms of its international and economic position. My answer would be that (more than any other country), Britain needs to rediiscover its old allegiance with Germany; despite the fact that the wars of the 20th century alienated the two countries, for obvious and good reasons.

This may seem like a very radical idea, but it isn't really. Both countries are already allied through NATO and the EU, but there can be even stronger alliances on a bilateral basis, in the same way that Britain and France have very strong naval and military ties (though most British people seem unaware of this).

But to my mind, the time is coming when Britain needs to move a little bit away from the unhealthy and very one-sided relationship with the US (not abandon it mind you, just reassert some British independence) and the single country that it most needs to develop a new relationship with is Germany, which is Britain's natural ally in Europe and has been for centuries.

The 20th century was in my opinion an abberation, England and Germany are more similar than they are different, and the time has come to finally move on from the legacy of Hitler and WW II and for the two nations to regain a common understanding and closer alliance.

I was born in Birmingham, and lived near London when I was in University, I also lived in Munich in Germany for about a year, and it always struck me how similar the English and the Germans are in many ways, this may sound strange to English people, but its not really when you think about it; both countries have a germanic culture and have germanic languages and while have some quite different aspects to them, there is a quality to both that is quite similar but hard to define, its interesting. Anyway....just musing.

Its just an idea, any responses from my British chums?

posted by galbally

[QUOTE]But to my mind, the time is coming when Britain needs to move a little bit away from the unhealthy and very one-sided relationship with the US (not abandon it mind you, just reassert some British independence) and the country that it most needs to develop a new relationship with is Germany, which is Britain's natural ally in Europe and has been for centuries. The 20th century was an abberation, England and Germany are a lot more similar than they are different, and the time has come to finally move on from the legacy of Hitler and WW II and for the two nations to regain a common understanding and closer alliance.

[/QUOTE

Couldn't agree with you more. Trouble large section of the media, particularly the murdoch owned ones are using europe as an excuse for all our ills. When you meet those that support UKIP they are incredibly ignorant (at least the ones I have met) to the extent of being unaware most of our trade is with europe or that there was in fact a referendum on the issue instigated by those hostile to joining who were flabbergasted at the result and have been trying to forget about it ever since. If we're not careful we are going to end up a bankrupt little island on the arse end of europe.

It just occurs to me that despite all the legacy of history (and of course British people may still have a lot of distrust {and fear even} of Germany, even at this remove from WW II, which is understandable), that the interests of the two countries are very similar, they actually share a very similar world view, have similar problems in certain areas, and their peoples are quite closely related.

In geopolitical terms the interests of the two countries are also almost identical now, in that they both essentially have the same problems and issues, the main ones being the transatlantic alliance with the US, the general security of Europe (particularly along its eastern frontier), creating a better relationship with Russia but ensuring energy security, dealing with Islamic Terrorism, and the future role of the NATO alliance in the world. Obviously both also have to deal with the fall out from the collapse of the global economic system.

It makes sense at this stage that if Britain is going to re-invent itself and its "role" in the World generally and in Europe; after the recent issues with global capitalism, the special relationship, and the legacy of Bush, then looking at its relationship with Germany (both inside and outside the EU) would be the first place to start.

I agree with your point, that the British public are extraordinarily badly served by their media, and by the general attitude in the political class to looking outside the mantra of the "special relationship" and using the EU as a whipping boy for issues that are basically irrelevant to what the EU does or is.

This is probably because a lot of the media (in particular) is owned by a certain generation of very right-wing Atlanticists, who are very anti-EU. Unfortunately the media seems to set the political agenda a lot of the time, and also influences the opinion of "man on the street" so much; especially on Europe, where its impossible to have a rational debate, and it quickly descends into hyper-emotive nationalism and xenophobia.

posted by galbally

I agree with your point, that the British public are extraordinarily badly served by their media, and by the general attitude in the political class to looking outside the mantra of the "special relationship" and using the EU as a whipping boy for issues that are basically irrelevant to what the EU does or is. This is probably because a lot of the media in particular is owned by very right-wing Atlanticists, who are very anti-EU; and the media seems to set the political agenda a lot of the time, especially on Europe, where its impossible to have a rational debate, and it quickly descends into hyper-emotive nationalism and xenophobia.


I suspect many are now thoroughly fed up with this so called special relationship and most are astute enough to realise that the US is not that reliable a trading partner and will break trade rules on a whim. Right wing politics as a whole have taken a good beating over the last year or so people are seeing he consequences of a lurch to the right.

It's going to be interesting if the tories win the next election. The odds of their being any more tory MP's up here are slim to non existent. we've still not gorgiven Thatcher. Arguably they do not have a mandate to rule in scotland and it may strengthen the SNP.

gmc;1131050 wrote: posted by galbally



I suspect many are now thoroughly fed up with this so called special relationship and most are astute enough to realise that the US is not that reliable a trading partner and will break trade rules on a whim. Right wing politics as a whole have taken a good beating over the last year or so people are seeing he consequences of a lurch to the right.

It's going to be interesting if the tories win the next election. The odds of their being any more tory MP's up here are slim to non existent. we've still not gorgiven Thatcher. Arguably they do not have a mandate to rule in scotland and it may strengthen the SNP.


Labour will take Scotland.

gmc;1131050 wrote: posted by galbally



I suspect many are now thoroughly fed up with this so called special relationship and most are astute enough to realise that the US is not that reliable a trading partner and will break trade rules on a whim. Right wing politics as a whole have taken a good beating over the last year or so people are seeing he consequences of a lurch to the right.

It's going to be interesting if the tories win the next election. The odds of their being any more tory MP's up here are slim to non existent. we've still not gorgiven Thatcher. Arguably they do not have a mandate to rule in scotland and it may strengthen the SNP.


Quite possibly, well that's going to be an issue that the Scots will have to confront for themselves. Independence within the EU is no panacea, but being Irish I would generally think its healthier for Scotland at this stage to re-emerge as a fully independent country, but thats an internal U.K. matter and not really any of my business.

In terms of the "special relationship" I think recent events, and particularly the fact that Barak Obama chose Berlin to make his major European address should instruct people about the reality that the Americans tend now to see Europe as one place, including Britain; that they deal with accordingly.

The special relationship with Britain as a separate nation is really just a politcial nicety, that the Americans play up to to keep the Brits happy and on-message, and that is sometimes used as an excuse for specific policies that would otherwise be unacceptable to any independent nation (most cynically by the last President and Prime Minister, if I might say).

Obviously culturally and historically there are very strong ties between the two nations, and the people do share a lot of ties and have empathy for each other; but in geopolitics your own self-interest comes first, not second.

Also, crucially, Britain is not like America and never will be, since WW II, it seems that more and more British leaders have just aped not only American political ideas, but also social ones, to the detriment of Britain and its own unique identity and society.

Britain is a relatively large, powerful European State (by European Standards), comprised of 3 ethnic nations on a large Island off the NE coast of France (about 26 miles at its closest point I think), the Island is the homeland of 3 peoples known as the English, the Scots, and the Welsh; its wealth and power was historically based on an English Naval Empire, the economic and political muscle of London in SE England, and a state governed as a consitutional monarchy with a strong parliamentary democracy based in Westminister.

It's simply not a continental-sized superpower, founded by colonists on an unspoilt continent 300 years ago, organized as a federal republic from the Pacific to the Atlantic, with a population based on immigration from the 4 corners of the globe. That country is called the USA, and its totally different from Britain. British political ideas are very different from American ones.

America had a revolution in 1776 precisely because the two places had become already incompatible by that stage, and rule by a king and parliament from London was no longer acceptable to them (the people that at that stage considered themselves "Americans" not British colonists any more), that has only grown through the centuries. To have a reverse situation where you had a Britain ruled by a president and congress in Washington would prove equally unacceptable to British people now.

In short Britain is about as similar to America as Holland or France are, and just because the two countries share a common language, and that popular culture is dominated by American ideas, doesn't change that essential reality.

Why certain policies and social attitudes are considered interchangeable between the two countries is beyond me.

oscar;1131059 wrote: Labour will take Scotland.


the snp have proven to be just as corrupt as labour when in power, folk are scunnered with the whole lot of them. I think the turnout at the next election will be very low indeed. I wouldn't like to call it. If I were labour I would be very worried though. Party membership is leaving in droves.

posted by galbally

[QUOTE]Obviously culturally and historically there are very strong ties between the two nations, and the people do share a lot of ties and have empathy for each other; but in geopolitics your own self-interest comes first, not second.

Also, crucially, Britain is not like America and never will be, since WW II, it seems that more and more British leaders have just aped not only American political ideas, but also social ones, to the detriment of Britain and its own unique identity and society




Be inclined to agree with most of what you say. The other factor has also been trying to hold on to the remnants of empire and keep, playing the great game. One of the reasons behind the throwing out of churchill in the post war election was the wholesale rejection by, in particular, the troops of that old let's do it for the empire attitude he represented. If you look at his speeches he constantly refers to the empire. In Scotland he was also remembered as the bastard that was ready to use troops to put down strikers. the troops fighting were the children of those who fought in ww1 and lived through all the social change that followed. people were politicised in a way we cannot comprehend nowadays i think. If I dig hard enough I could probably come up with a distant relative that was in the black and tans. I know quite a few that were in northern Ireland. The establishment never quite let go of the illusion we were still a major power. Tony still liked that image of noble let's do good self sacrifice which I think resulted in him putting British interests low on the agenda. I would argue ethics and common sense as well but that's a different issue.

Post ww2 it would have been very hard indeed to see Germany as a trustworthy ally-or the french either come to that one tried to destroy us and the other caved in and almost lost us our army as a consequence. The old "special relationship" with germany was targeted at the french anyway for most of the time. The US took advantage of the situation (have a look at some of the historical documents from the time) and helped bankrupt us as well as take those of our foreign possessions they thought might be useful.

On balance though they were the most useful of a bad bunch and we needed the financial help to rebuild our economy. Things have changed though and I agree our interests lie as part of the EU. That's where most of our trade is and where most of the growth is going to come from-that and china and russia. UKIP and the like are basically modern manifestations of the British fascist party. Like fascism they appeal in a knee-jerk unthinking manner to those not capable of thinking for themselves.