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Well, someone's shot him (again), this time with fatal results, I see.

My sympathy is for the children he murdered. I have none for that SOB.

hoppy;1197797 wrote: My sympathy is for the children he murdered. I have none for that SOB.


So you approve of religious terrorism then?

gmc;1197838 wrote: So you approve of religious terrorism then?


Did "hoppy" mention religion? Doesn't look like it....

gmc;1197838 wrote: So you approve of religious terrorism then?


I approve of killing mass murderers.

hoppy;1197797 wrote: My sympathy is for the children he murdered. I have none for that SOB.




Spoken like a good Christian.

Lon;1197844 wrote: Spoken like a good Christian.


What does christianity have to do with killing a mass murderer? How do you know I'm a christian?

hoppy;1197855 wrote: What does christianity have to do with killing a mass murderer? How do you know I'm a christian?


The past killings of abortion docs in the U.S. as well as the blowing up of abortion clinics was carried out by those claiming a Christian connection of some kind, and most of those that approve of such acts claim a Christian connection. Do you know of any atheists that support the killings?

Lon;1197862 wrote: The past killings of abortion docs in the U.S. as well as the blowing up of abortion clinics was carried out by those claiming a Christian connection of some kind, and most of those that approve of such acts claim a Christian connection. Do you know of any atheists that support the killings?


Most atheists I know don't have the guts to believe in or stand up for anything much. That's why they are atheists. It's far easier to not believe in anything than it is to say, "this I believe and this I will fight for".

hoppy;1197864 wrote: Most atheists I know don't have the guts to believe in or stand up for anything much. That's why they are atheists. It's far easier to not believe in anything than it is to say, "this I believe and this I will fight for".


Interesting comment, but not very accurate. As an atheist myself I would fight for the right of some doctors to perform abortions where legal in their jurisdiction.

Lon;1197880 wrote: Interesting comment, but not very accurate. As an atheist myself I would fight for the right of some doctors to perform abortions where legal in their jurisdiction.


so you condone mass murder because it's "legal" in some places?

hoppy;1197882 wrote: so you condone mass murder because it's "legal" in some places?




Define mass murder.

"Religions & Beliefs" is over *there* --------------------------->

Bill Sikes;1197884 wrote: "Religions & Beliefs" is over *there* --------------------------->




Be reasonable Bill-------------Religion is a big part of the whole Abortion discussion------besides, there is no argument going on here, at least not from my part. I think it could rightly be called a discussion.

Lon;1197893 wrote: Be reasonable Bill-------------


Reasonable? Me??

Lon;1197893 wrote: Religion is a big part of the whole Abortion discussion------


Perhaps, but I can't see the reason to start calling people Christians and going at it from purely that angle.



However, since the thread has taken a turn, what is the position of the major religions on abortion? Perhaps we can leave their position on murdering people for later...

Yes lon. Don't go Bill Clinton on me and make me define each word.

hoppy;1197864 wrote: Most atheists I know don't have the guts to believe in or stand up for anything much. That's why they are atheists. It's far easier to not believe in anything than it is to say, "this I believe and this I will fight for".


Clearly they stand up for the fact they don't believe in god. Presumably they also stand up for the right not to have the religious shove their beliefs down everybody's throats and force everybody to conform to an absurd set of belief and worship practices. That you live in a largely secular state with a secular constitution and are free to worship as you please is a testimony to the courage and determination of atheists and free thinkers throughout your history.

Besides tiller was shot in a church -are you going to claim he was following a different god from you? I assume you're a christian my apologies if you are not-no offence intended.

gmc;1197899 wrote: Clearly they stand up for the fact they don't believe in god. Presumably they also stand up for the right not to have the religious shove their beliefs down everybody's throats and force everybody to conform to an absurd set of belief and worship practices. That you live in a largely secular state with a secular constitution and are free to worship as you please is a testimony to the courage and determination of atheists and free thinkers throughout your history.

Besides tiller was shot in a church -are you going to claim he was following a different god from you? I assume you're a christian my apologies if you are not-no offence intended.


Shooting someone in church goes against the grain. I wonder in what twisted way Tiller could read his bible and come to the conclusion it was ok to kill babies.

Bill Sikes;1197895 wrote: Reasonable? Me??







Perhaps, but I can't see the reason to start calling people Christians and going at it from purely that angle.





However, since the thread has taken a turn, what is the position of the major religions on abortion? Perhaps we can leave their position on murdering people for later...


Well Bill-----------it's a fact. Self proclaimed Christians are the ones responsible for killing the abortion docs and blowing up clinics. Haven't your read the press? The hell with what the major religions position is on abortion, we are talking about here in the U.S. and what has just occured and has occured in the past few years. What other angle can you approach this subject on. Certain Christian thinking folks have been responsible.

hoppy;1197897 wrote: Yes lon. Don't go Bill Clinton on me and make me define each word.




Well, my point is that you are the one that uses the term MASS MURDER. That's not what the law calls it. The law calls it abortion.

Lon;1197905 wrote: Well Bill-----------it's a fact. Self proclaimed Christians are the ones responsible for killing the abortion docs and blowing up clinics. Haven't your read the press? The hell with what the major religions position is on abortion, we are talking about here in the U.S. and what has just occured and has occured in the past few years. What other angle can you approach this subject on. Certain Christian thinking folks have been responsible.


And the doc was supposedly a christian but made a living killing babies. So, a christian assasin kills a christian baby killer.

hoppy;1197907 wrote: And the doc was supposedly a christian but made a living killing babies. So, a christian assasin kills a christian baby killer.


Tiller attending church hardly makes him a Christian (according to Christians). I was in church last month.

hoppy;1197897 wrote: Yes lon. Don't go Bill Clinton on me and make me define each word.


Why not - your definition of mass murder is so skewed as to require its own definition.

Even by the laws of your country it is not murder.

Lon;1197909 wrote: Tiller attending church hardly makes him a Christian (according to Christians). I was in church last month.


But yet you insinuate the killer is christian even though he violated the commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?

hoppy;1197938 wrote: But yet you insinuate the killer is christian even though he violated the commandment "Thou shalt not kill"?


I don't know if he is a Christian or not, it really does not matter. What matters is the widespread approval by Christian elements of Tiller's being killed. This is evidenced by the many Anti Abortion Blogs and postings therein. We do know that self professed Christians have killed doctors in the past. Most of the Anti Abortion groups have been careful to couch their language re: Tiller killing. Your very first post seemed to indicate your approval so I can only assume that you believe that taking the law into one's own hand is OK. Most Christians are not afraid of stating the fact, so let me ask, are you a Christian?

I consider myself a Christian.( although not real active, if truth were known

I am anti-abortion, although I do not believe it is my god given right to deny others their choices, philosophies or moral standards.

The assassination of George Tiller was murder. No ifs, ands or buts about it. No philosophy arguments for or against. I think everyone is against murder or at least should be.

I am not sure when life begins, I do know Tillers life had begun, I know he had a family that he loved and that loved him. So if you asked me which is worst. The killing of Tiller or his abortions? I would definitely say it was the killing of Tiller.

The main problem I have with some people whether they be anti or pro on the abortion issue is that they all think they have a right to tell me how to think and tell others what to do with their very own bodies. Who are we (especially being a man) to tell another person what is right or wrong for them?

hoppy;1197903 wrote: Shooting someone in church goes against the grain. I wonder in what twisted way Tiller could read his bible and come to the conclusion it was ok to kill babies.


Probably in the same twisted way Christians used to read the bible and came to the conclusion it's OK to burn heretics, justified slavery, think it's OK top prevent access to the sex education and contraceptives that might help prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place and persuade themselves they morally superior to all other religions and anyone not agreeing with them is going to hell.

Lon;1198026 wrote: I don't know if he is a Christian or not, it really does not matter. What matters is the widespread approval by Christian elements of Tiller's being killed. This is evidenced by the many Anti Abortion Blogs and postings therein. We do know that self professed Christians have killed doctors in the past. Most of the Anti Abortion groups have been careful to couch their language re: Tiller killing. Your very first post seemed to indicate your approval so I can only assume that you believe that taking the law into one's own hand is OK. Most Christians are not afraid of stating the fact, so let me ask, are you a Christian?


I believe in God and I believe there are two kinds of law, if you are a God fearing man. 1. God's law. 2. Man's law, which is often flawed. I believe both were law breakers. Tiller broke man's law in a number of instances if I understand it correctly. And in my opinion, he broke God's laws too.

Tiller's killer also broke man's law and God's law by taking on the role of judge and executioner, which is God's job.

Will I lose any sleep over Tiller? Not likely.

hoppy;1198067 wrote: I believe in God and I believe there are two kinds of law, if you are a God fearing man. 1. God's law. 2. Man's law, which is often flawed. I believe both were law breakers. Tiller broke man's law in a number of instances if I understand it correctly. And in my opinion, he broke God's laws too.

Tiller's killer also broke man's law and God's law by taking on the role of judge and executioner, which is God's job.

Will I lose any sleep over Tiller? Not likely.




Which of Man's Law was Tiller breaking?



Man's law may be flawed but it is the law that we must live with in this life not a theocracy.

Lon;1197905 wrote: The hell with what the major religions position is on abortion, we are talking about here in the U.S. and what has just occured and has occured in the past few years.


I can't see how you can say "The hell with what the major religions position is on abortion", when the vast majority of people in the USA belong to religions broadly opposed to abortion.

gmc;1198053 wrote: Probably in the same twisted way Christians used to read the bible and came to the conclusion it's OK to burn heretics, justified slavery, think it's OK top prevent access to the sex education and contraceptives that might help prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place and persuade themselves they morally superior to all other religions and anyone not agreeing with them is going to hell.


Interesting - back on the old soap box, eh? Oh well. Substitute the word "Muslim" for "Christian", or even substitute "Atheists", or even "Agnostics", and your message above still stands, does it not.

Lon;1198084 wrote: Which of Man's Law was Tiller breaking?


It depends on where you come from.

Bill Sikes;1198095 wrote: I can't see how you can say "The hell with what the major religions position is on abortion", when the vast majority of people in the USA belong to religions broadly opposed to abortion.


Are you suggesting that the vast majority of people in the USA oppose abortion or just the religions they nominally belong to?

Come to that, are you suggesting that the vast majority of people in the USA are Catholic or Buddhist because, as far as I am aware, the Protestant denominations and the other major religions have not declared a unified position against abortion.

Bill Sikes;1198100 wrote: It depends on where you come from.


He's from America as I understand it.

Bill Sikes;1198095 wrote: I can't see how you can say "The hell with what the major religions position is on abortion", when the vast majority of people in the USA belong to religions broadly opposed to abortion.




Agreed, but I am talking about those that condone the killing of Tiller. The vast majority irrespective of their religion do not condone killing abortion doctors or blowing up clinics, but there is a hard core Christian element that does.

Bill Sikes;1198098 wrote: Interesting - back on the old soap box, eh? Oh well. Substitute the word "Muslim" for "Christian", or even substitute "Atheists", or even "Agnostics", and your message above still stands, does it not.


Name one ORGANIZED ATHEIST GROUP that has been responisble for atrocities.

Bryn Mawr;1198103 wrote: He's from America as I understand it.


What has that to do with "it depends where you come from"?

Bryn Mawr;1198102 wrote: Are you suggesting that the vast majority of people in the USA oppose abortion or just the religions they nominally belong to?


Yes.



Bryn Mawr;1198102 wrote: Come to that, are you suggesting that the vast majority of people in the USA are Catholic or Buddhist because,


No.

Bryn Mawr;1198102 wrote: as far as I am aware, the Protestant denominations and the other major religions have not declared a unified position against abortion.


They can't, they're not unified. However, do they not oppose abortion, broadly speaking?

Bill Sikes;1198127 wrote: What has that to do with "it depends where you come from"?


I thought that would be obvious. When you are discussing whether a person has broken the law, where the offence takes place is fundamental to determining the answer. To judge the question using British law would be an irrelevance as Tiller was an American in America therefore the question should be answered using American law.

Bryn Mawr;1198131 wrote: I thought that would be obvious.


Rubbish. Lon asked "Which of Man's Law was Tiller breaking?", not "Which US law...".

Bryn Mawr;1198131 wrote: When you are discussing whether a person has broken the law, where the offence takes place is fundamental to determining the answer.


That's not necessarily true, either.

Bill Sikes;1198134 wrote: Rubbish. Lon asked "Which of Man's Law was Tiller breaking?", not "Which US law...".


Which of Man's Law was applicable in this case?

Originally Posted by Bill Sikes

Rubbish. Lon asked "Which of Man's Law was Tiller breaking?", not "Which US law...".

Bryn Mawr;1198141 wrote: Which of Man's Law was applicable in this case?


I assume you are referring to abortion. It's illegal for any reason at all in some countries, and in others is allowable only in limited cases - didn't you know?

I believe Tiller violated a few laws concerning getting the opinion of at least two other docs as required in some places. More will come out in the next few days.

Tiller killed for a living. Now he is killed. You really do reap what you sow.

Lon;1197862 wrote: The past killings of abortion docs in the U.S. as well as the blowing up of abortion clinics was carried out by those claiming a Christian connection of some kind, and most of those that approve of such acts claim a Christian connection. Do you know of any atheists that support the killings?

Oh,so well stated!:yh_clap

gmc;1198053 wrote: Probably in the same twisted way Christians used to read the bible and came to the conclusion it's OK to burn heretics, justified slavery, think it's OK top prevent access to the sex education and contraceptives that might help prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place and persuade themselves they morally superior to all other religions and anyone not agreeing with them is going to hell.

Oh,another excellent statement!!:yh_clap

Bill Sikes;1198100 wrote: It depends on where you come from.


I assume you are talking about different jurisdictions in the U.S. In the area that Tiller lived he operated within the law. He has not been convicted of any crimes. There was a push before his death to bring charges against him.

hoppy;1198144 wrote: I believe Tiller violated a few laws concerning getting the opinion of at least two other docs as required in some places. More will come out in the next few days.
Yeah----------let's convict the guy now that's he's dead:-3

hoppy;1198151 wrote: Tiller killed for a living. Now he is killed. You really do reap what you sow.




That's original---------how about an eye for an eye-----very Christian you know.