ForumGarden

With Tiger Woods now joining the swelling ranks of famous people who have ridiculed and denigrated the sanctity of marriage, I thought I'd take the pulse of our little community on adultery.

My opinion? Adultery is despicable, reprehensible behavior. Saying that, 'Men can't help themselves" is a cop-out and is similar to saying "I couldn't stop myself from robbing that bank." Of course you could, you were just weak-willed or morally bankrupt.

I didn't get married until I was 34 and I traveled the planet extensively, so I had lots of relationships. Not once did I ever cheat on a girl I was dating or in a relationship with. I'd be a liar (Something I desperately try not to be these days!) if I said that the thought of cheating never crossed my mind, especially in the light of some of the incredibly attractive and intelligent women I've met in a very storied and diverse life.

But I am telling the honest truth when I say that each time that thought stuck me, I found it distasteful and appalling in a place that is at the very core of my being. I knew that to give in to such thoughts, much less the actual act, was not just weak, but abhorrent to my very soul. Call it dignity, honor, personal self-worth, or even the "Code of the West", I have not and not and will never cheat on a girl

Were I to do so, I knew that I would never again be who I am.

There is a movement afoot in this country that somehow not only is cheating somewhat acceptable, especially in hardship or celebrity cases, and all men are doing it. Many people assume, (and this is supported by the movies, TV, and common mythology,) that men are slaves to their sex drives. And it's true that there are enough prominent examples out there (even a President!) to give even the most skeptical person pause.

But I'm not buying it.

So how about yourself? Is adultery just a part of the male condition? Or is it behavior to be avoided?

Not acceptable never has been never will be. Do we make excuses for it in this day and age YES. Money talks and people pay for their discrections but eventually most of the marriages END.

I think you've defined the root problem, Saint. It's not adultery, that's a mere consequence. The problem is marriage. This whole notion of contracts for life is just a means toward social conformity, it has no other value. When it comes with guaranteed prenuptial percentages of income on an annual accumulator the best word for it is legal prostitution.

spot;1269761 wrote: I think you've defined the root problem, Saint. It's not adultery, that's a mere consequence. The problem is marriage. This whole notion of contracts for life is just a means toward social conformity, it has no other value. When it comes with guaranteed prenuptial percentages of income on an annual accumulator the best word for it is legal prostitution.i totally agree. That said, I'm married! But marriage is part of my culture.

If we're going to be married, if indeed we do truly love(?) an other person, then we understand mistakes are made, and nature invades our constructs at times. It hurts like hell, but we're all human.

I don't consider having sex with someone other than your "partner" to be cheating only if you leave your previous "partner". Any other instance would be cheating.

On that, I don't see how marriage in any way illustrates the love people share for each other.

If you LOVE your partner he/she will know it and that would be enough as far as I'm concerned.

Is it acceptable? all depends on the situation.

is it always because there is no more love left or the marriage is bad? no

I don't agree on cheating, but it does happen much more than we think.

and its not always men doing the cheating.

Odie;1269820 wrote: and its not always men doing the cheating.


:sneaky: :yh_devil

:yh_laugh

:yh_wink

:yh_kiss

:yh_love

:yh_drool

:yh_kiss

:yh_blush

:yh_love

:yh_kiss

:yh_wink

:yh_kiss

:wah:

:yh_wink

:yh_kiss

Well, I can only decide for my ownself.

yes, it is unacceptable. I got married for life. Fortunately for me, so did my wife. We have plenty of things that strain our marriage, but this will NEVER be one of them.

The problem is as said before, too many people get married for the wrong reasons, to start with, and then screw it up, and think they need to change partners. What the need is to change themselves.

You can't be happy with anyone lest you are happy with yourself, and nobody else can fix that.

Saint_;1269744 wrote:

My opinion? Adultery is despicable, reprehensible behavior. Saying that, 'Men can't help themselves" is a cop-out and is similar to saying "I couldn't stop myself from robbing that bank."


It's also ridiculously sexist.

No it's never acceptable. Also water is wet.



LarsMac;1269900 wrote:

The problem is as said before, too many people get married for the wrong reasons, to start with, and then screw it up, and think they need to change partners.
Then they should get a divorce.

Ah the 21st century and its ever-growing "anything goes" mentality, isn't it great?

:-5

joey2000;1270327 wrote: Ah the 21st century and its ever-growing "anything goes" mentality, isn't it great?
I must say I don't see that reflected in legislation, though I have my hopes that legislators might finally wise up and do the right thing.

I dont think its about , being married or not. My daughter has been with her boyfriend for 7 years, they live together now but are not even engaged . I know she would be truly devastated if her boyfriend ever went with another woman. I would never, and have never, cheated on my husband, not just because we are married but because i know how much it would hurt him,, and how i would feel also if he done it to me. So in my opinion,, people who cheat are just very selfish:-3 They give no thought to how their other half will feel about it.

For me, It would depend on the money. I would cheat If I was offered enough money. A Girl can get another husband but Gucci Handbags are hard to come by.



































:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

oscar;1270421 wrote: For me, It would depend on the money. I would cheat If I was offered enough money. A Girl can get another husband but Gucci Handbags are hard to come by.



































:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl


:yh_wink

:yh_kiss

:wah:

:yh_wink

:yh_kiss

:wah:

:yh_wink

:yh_kiss

Do we forgive the partner who commits adultery ?

mrsK;1270465 wrote: Do we forgive the partner who commits adultery ?


As opposed to who?

It's the word "acceptable" in the poll I don't get.

Adultery is having sex with a person who is married to somebody else.

Or

If you are yourself married, having sex with somebody other than your spouse.

Unless you've agreed up front to have an "open relationship" - how can it ever be right? At very least it's cheating, disloyal, a breach of your marriage vows / contract, the trust between you. So it's always wrong, and usually destructive.

But humans are humans. We can all be tempted and stray.

Whether it's acceptable is another matter. If you mean accepted as normal practice.. maybe there are some places where it is. Some religions allow men to take temporary extra wives to avoid adultery while stoning women who are even talk to another man. For the French, allegedly, two lipsticks and a lover are de rigueur.

I can envisage extenuating circumstances. I think acceptance depends of the people involved accepting it. And forgiveness (or not) depends on the people involved and the circumstances.

joey2000;1270468 wrote: As opposed to who?I don't get this question.

I can't answer this question definitively, only for myself... my answer coming from life experience, and studies.

Adultery is absolutely, categorically NOT acceptable to me. I personally think that we have evolved to be complex creatures with conflicting social identities, and resulting behaviours, however I truly believe that adultery comes down to choice. Do you choose to devalue and disrespect your partner and subsequently yourself or not?

I believe that if more people bought into a sense of shared social responsibility and looked after each other, rather than cheating or being selfish, the world would be a better place.

kazalala;1270394 wrote: I dont think its about , being married or not.
Adultery, by definition, is exactly that, but in terms of the more general concept of cheating on someone, I hear you and agree.



AussiePam;1270478 wrote: I can envisage extenuating circumstances. If you mean extenuating circumstances that somehow make it acceptable, I can't.

joey2000;1270494 wrote:



If you mean extenuating circumstances that somehow make it acceptable, I can't.


You can't see any extenuating circumstances under which you personally might accept adultery either for yourself or for someone else as being at least understandable. I accept that.

For me, no never, but then I am in a great relationship.

But every relationship is different and not everyone is happy.

Who am I to say where people may or may not find happiness?

A friend of mine's wife cheated on him and he asked my advice. I had to tell him, "You may love her, but she doesn't love you. Someone who loves someone else could never bring themselves to cheat knowing how terribly it would hurt the person they care for."

Love has to be a two-way street, if someone cheats, that's a sure sign you're on a one-way alley.

Saint_;1270687 wrote: A friend of mine's wife cheated on him and he asked my advice. I had to tell him, "You may love her, but she doesn't love you. Someone who loves someone else could never bring themselves to cheat knowing how terribly it would hurt the person they care for."

Love has to be a two-way street, if someone cheats, that's a sure sign you're on a one-way alley.:oThis may be the best advise you could give your friend but it also may be the absolute worse advice you could give him. The problem is you just simply don't know which it is, and neither may your friend or his wife. It's not your relationship and therefore should remain neutral about that while being a good friend and listen to your friend. They both are most likely in an emotional state you cannot imagine. It's said by many psychologist's and just about all marriage counselors that infidelity is one of the most difficult events to deal with. Advise your friend to seek professional advice.

I'm happy for those of you whom have never had to experience this, but really, you haven't a clue what you are talking about unless you've been personally touched by infidelity.

Ahso!;1270700 wrote: This may be the best advise you could give your friend but it also may be the absolute worse advice you could give him. The problem is you just simply don't know which it is, and neither may your friend or his wife. It's not your relationship and therefore should remain neutral about that while being a good friend and listen to your friend. They both are most likely in an emotional state you cannot imagine. It's said by many psychologist's and just about all marriage counselors that infidelity is one of the most difficult events to deal with. Advise your friend to seek professional advice.

I'm happy for those of you whom have never had to experience this, but really, you haven't a clue what you are talking about unless you've been personally touched by infidelity.


True enough...after I told him that, I relented and thought about it. I suggested exactly what you said, counseling, since I'm not a professional. (Although I do have about three years of psychology under my belt)

Unfortunately, she became very abusive to him and cheated on him again. I really do believe that she's trying to send him a message. (Let me go.):rolleyes:

My thoughts are always, if I was to cheat on my partner how would I feel if he cheated on me. If I can say "horrible, it would be the worst thing in the world" then I dam well better not cheat on my partner.

My wife stepped outside our marriage once 10 years ago which I learned of from her four years later, and today I would not want to be married to anyone else. The pain was nothing short of excruciating and I wish we'd never gone through it, but we did and believe me if a person has never been through it they should keep quiet concerning it outside their own relationship.

What goes on between any couple is their business and their business only. When a person comes to you for advice tread very, very carefully because you don't know whats been said in private conversations between the two and the consequences of those conversations. If you think for one minute any friend is opening up to you your dead wrong....don't forget that!

Ahso!;1270727 wrote: I learned of from her four years later,


Yeah, I had that whole "oh, BTW years ago" thing happen to me once as well. By that time, my thoughts were "Well? What can I do about it now? Why make a huge deal about something that is already long past history?" (That was an abortion, though, not cheating.):(

Ahso!;1270727 wrote: When a person comes to you for advice tread very, very carefully because you don't know whats been said in private conversations between the two and the consequences of those conversations.


True enough! All you can do is tell them what you would do in a similar situation, after that, it's up to them. Nobody can live someone else's life for them!:)

Saint_;1270738 wrote: Yeah, I had that whole "oh, BTW years ago" thing happen to me once as well. By that time, my thoughts were "Well? What can I do about it now? Why make a huge deal about something that is already long past history?" (That was an abortion, though, not cheating.):(Again, so flippant! not even close.

You have no idea what kind of an impact this kind of flippant thread could have on people who may be reading it and are going through difficult times in their relationship. You'd think three years of psychology would have taught something other than complete disregard of others.

Ahso!;1270741 wrote: Again, so flippant! not even close.

You have no idea what kind of an impact this kind of flippant thread could have on people who may be reading it and are going through difficult times in their relationship. You'd think three years of psychology would have taught something other than complete disregard of others.


Sorry if I came off that way, but was was deadly serious.:-2 I think you are reading more tone (and the wrong one!)into the words than exists. I was feeling your pain and sympathizing with you since I had go through a similar experience. Nobody likes to have things sprung on them.

No hard feelings intended at all!:o

This thread was started as a result of the Tiger Woods thread as per the OP. Do people really think that by taking such a hard stand on an issue is doing anyone any favors? Its not.

If Tiger Woods wife were to read these two threads it would only add to her grief and would not help her make any decisions other than on the negative side of things.

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread by people who are completely ignorant of the pain an quilt associated with infidelity could have such a bad impact on people experiencing this issue.

People should stick to what they know not what they think they know.

Ahso!;1270745 wrote: This thread was started as a result of the Tiger Woods thread as per the OP. Do people really think that by taking such a hard stand on an issue is doing anyone any favors? Its not.


From my point of view, there isn't any "other" stand. Adultery is wrong. Black and white. (I'm bad that way, and I have apologized to you for it.)

If Tiger Woods wife were to read these two threads it would only add to her grief and would not help her make any decisions other than on the negative side of things.


Perhaps someone who is thinking of adultery will think twice and avoid that poor decision after reading this thread. Possibly multiple someones. In that case, it would help people, yes?

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread by people who are completely ignorant of the pain an quilt associated with infidelity could have such a bad impact on people experiencing this issue.


True. But a forum is for expressing your opinion, informed or not. You'll see lots of people debating and discussing things that they have no personal experience with with others that do and that's a good thing, since sharing knowledge and learning from each other is always good.

People should stick to what they know not what they think they know.


Well, that's your opinion and I respect it. I have definite opinions (obviously) about adultery as well. It probably has to do with how we were raised, and as you point out, our life experiences. Again, if I hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. That was not my intent.

Ahso!;1270745 wrote: This thread was started as a result of the Tiger Woods thread as per the OP. Do people really think that by taking such a hard stand on an issue is doing anyone any favors? Its not.

If Tiger Woods wife were to read these two threads it would only add to her grief and would not help her make any decisions other than on the negative side of things.

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread by people who are completely ignorant of the pain an quilt associated with infidelity could have such a bad impact on people experiencing this issue.

People should stick to what they know not what they think they know.


My opinion relates to how I feel about *my* behaviour as that is all I can express.

As to my knowledge, or lack of it, about how it would feel - yes, I do have first hand experience. It is painful and hard to forgive.

My opinion is as I have expressed it.

Saint_;1270749 wrote:



Perhaps someone who is thinking of adultery will think twice and avoid that poor decision after reading this thread. Possibly multiple someones. In that case, it would help people, yesNo! They've heard it before. The fact is that for whatever reason they are doing or about to do what they will most likely be sorry for.

People take bonds of marriage because its what our culture teaches not because any single person decides what should and should not be done.

Ahso!;1270745 wrote: People should stick to what they know not what they think they know.


Since we don't know what we don't know, to think we know something surely equates to knowing something, until we know something else..... like the cycle of knowledge?

These forums are not written by providers of a professional service but are a collection of thoughts and feelings, general and personal - I don't think we should be telling anyone what to do, or what not to do/write.

Elvira;1270776 wrote: Since we don't know what we don't know, to think we know something surely equates to knowing something, until we know something else..... like the cycle of knowledge?

These forums are not written by providers of a professional service but are a collection of thoughts and feelings, general and personal - I don't think we should be telling anyone what to do, or what not to do/write.I agree, we certainly should not be telling people how to have relationships and how to feel either.

Ahso!;1270771 wrote: People take bonds of marriage because its what our culture teaches not because any single person decides what should and should not be done.


Goodness, what a sweeping generalisation! I'm not sure I agree with the 'fact' or the sentiment. Firstlym, it is my experience that not everyone takes the bond of marriage due to culture, there are other individual, personal and evolutional reasons. Secondly, the pain of cheating is no more or no less just because someone has taken vows, or entered into a formal agreement, as opposed to an emotional agreement.

When one enteres into an exclusive emotional relationship, they take a responsibility to care take the 'heart' of the other. Betrayal is betrayal, doesn't matter how you dress it up.

However - Forgiveness is an entirely different issue. The circumstances preceding the betrayal may or may not influence the ability of one to forgive another. I personally could never forgive a betrayal of this nature - however I recognise that I am not a particularly forgiving person. Those who have managed to forgive and move on to a happier place, and TRULY not let the betrayal have a negative impact are truly stronger (?) than I.

Elvira;1270779 wrote:

When one enteres into an exclusive emotional relationship, they take a responsibility to care take the 'heart' of the other. Betrayal is betrayal, doesn't matter how you dress it up.

However - Forgiveness is an entirely different issue. The circumstances preceding the betrayal may or may not influence the ability of one to forgive another. I personally could never forgive a betrayal of this nature - however I recognise that I am not a particularly forgiving person. Those who have managed to forgive and move on to a happier place, and TRULY not let the betrayal have a negative impact are truly stronger (?) than I.


Wow. Very well said!:)

Elvira;1270779 wrote: Goodness, what a sweeping generalisation! I'm not sure I agree with the 'fact' or the sentiment. Firstlym, it is my experience that not everyone takes the bond of marriage due to culture, there are other individual, personal and evolutional reasons. Secondly, the pain of cheating is no more or no less just because someone has taken vows, or entered into a formal agreement, as opposed to an emotional agreement.

When one enteres into an exclusive emotional relationship, they take a responsibility to care take the 'heart' of the other. Betrayal is betrayal, doesn't matter how you dress it up.

However - Forgiveness is an entirely different issue. The circumstances preceding the betrayal may or may not influence the ability of one to forgive another. I personally could never forgive a betrayal of this nature - however I recognise that I am not a particularly forgiving person. Those who have managed to forgive and move on to a happier place, and TRULY not let the betrayal have a negative impact are truly stronger (?) than I.You express yourself very well as Saint said.

But you just simply don't know what it is you can or will forgive until it's all on the line, and what you have invested in the relationship suddenly becomes so much more crystal clear. Thats what is confusing and painful. On one hand you want to do exactly what it is you've always said you would do but then you realize its not nearly as cut and dry as you thought.

As a person, you are hurled into a place within yourself dark and scary you didn't know existed. Thats why this subject is nothing to play around with. These are peoples treasures of past present and the future. It's their entire life and should be approached with much more care than some of the comments here indicate.

What amazes me is these are sentiments of elder so called wiser people?

Saint_;1269744 wrote: With Tiger Woods now joining the swelling ranks of famous people who have ridiculed and denigrated the sanctity of marriage, I thought I'd take the pulse of our little community on adultery.

has that been confirmed ? did he say so?


My opinion? Adultery is despicable, reprehensible behavior. Saying that, 'Men can't help themselves" is a cop-out and is similar to saying "I couldn't stop myself from robbing that bank." Of course you could, you were just weak-willed or morally bankrupt.

You've never been in love?

I didn't get married until I was 34 and I traveled the planet extensively, so I had lots of relationships. Not once did I ever cheat on a girl I was dating or in a relationship with. I'd be a liar (Something I desperately try not to be these days!) if I said that the thought of cheating never crossed my mind, especially in the light of some of the incredibly attractive and intelligent women I've met in a very storied and diverse life.

Ahhh so you were testing the waters before having this view? YOu were a serial relationship addict?

But I am telling the honest truth when I say that each time that thought stuck me, I found it distasteful and appalling in a place that is at the very core of my being. I knew that to give in to such thoughts, much less the actual act, was not just weak, but abhorrent to my very soul. Call it dignity, honor, personal self-worth, or even the "Code of the West", I have not and not and will never cheat on a girl

Hmmm learn your history (being sold into marriage is not uncommon) among royalty, trade partners or for family gain. It has been an acceptable act since the year dot to marry for honour and prestage .....and then you have your loves after the fact..........Must be nice to be able to live a free and normal life as a commoner

Were I to do so, I knew that I would never again be who I am.

There is a movement afoot in this country that somehow not only is cheating somewhat acceptable, especially in hardship or celebrity cases, and all men are doing it. Many people assume, (and this is supported by the movies, TV, and common mythology,) that men are slaves to their sex drives. And it's true that there are enough prominent examples out there (even a President!) to give even the most skeptical person pause.

But I'm not buying it.

So how about yourself? Is adultery just a part of the male condition? Or is it behavior to be avoided?


Human condition? That's up to the individual. You can't pass judgement on what you do not know

Ahso!;1270745 wrote: This thread was started as a result of the Tiger Woods thread as per the OP. Do people really think that by taking such a hard stand on an issue is doing anyone any favors? Its not.

If Tiger Woods wife were to read these two threads it would only add to her grief and would not help her make any decisions other than on the negative side of things.

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread by people who are completely ignorant of the pain an quilt associated with infidelity could have such a bad impact on people experiencing this issue.

People should stick to what they know not what they think they know.


I think you are being unfair. maybe you should have stated in the OP you didnt want opinions.

Edit: went back and read the first post again, you asked for opinions. Thats all people are doing here is giving their own opinion. I think its unfair you are judging their opinion just because its not the same as yours. But thats just my opinion;)

I was talking to someone today ......Okay it was the father of my first child (who ran away...It's okay we were young) but he said something to me that has me kind of weirded out .... " the relationship wasn't healthy"

I sat there today thinking ........Ummm it wasn't healthy cause you left and even after you got me pregnant you wouldn't commit.19 years later I still feel the hurt

I went into a marriage and I was determined because of previous experience that I wouldn't take it lightly, 20 years of being abused because I was determined not to give up and love no matter what. It doesn't work

Now I sit here thinking,.....................Of all the conversations with people that have been married for 50 or 60 so years , and I tell them why I am seperated they say ."And?" like it's nothing. People who have gone through what I've experienced or maybe they havent, who talk to me like I'm nuts because "It's all apart of marriage"

I tried ..maybe I failed, maybe it was the best thing for myself and my children to leave? but one thing is for sure I'm stilll technically married and having sex with another person now........I'm an adulterer? I think not.

My commitment (marriage) came not because of a piece of paper but because I made a decision within myself. My marriage didn't end because of a piece of paper in the future but because I wanted it (within myself) to end.

Adultery to me is just pure betrayal (always with underlying causes of course) but to put it in the realms of a piece of paper and a priest is just pure folly

Ahso!;1270745 wrote: This thread was started as a result of the Tiger Woods thread as per the OP. Do people really think that by taking such a hard stand on an issue is doing anyone any favors? Its not. Who said anything about doing anyone any favors? In other words: so?

If Tiger Woods wife were to read these two threads it would only add to her grief and would not help her make any decisions other than on the negative side of things. Even if we pretend that that's true, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest she doesn't visit this site and has no intention to.

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread by people who are completely ignorant of the pain an quilt associated with infidelity could have such a bad impact on people experiencing this issue.Dismissing the fact that you pretend to know something you don't (ie who is/isn't "ignorant of the pain and guilt")......on the contrary: it is because of the pain and guilt that many of us have such disgust for this.

People should stick to what they know not what they think they know.

I could easily suggest you take your own advice, but that would mean I ignored - as you have - that msg boards are mostly for stating one's opinions, which is what we're doing.

A lot of Mind-blindness - lack of ability to empathize.

Mind-blindness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Empathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm Aspie and the difference is I get it once I've had the opportunity to think about things. I wonder about some of the other comments though.

Umm ahso? you don't have to put links to definitions ...we know em' okay?

Ahso!;1270798 wrote: These are peoples treasures of past present and the future. It's their entire life and should be approached with much more care than some of the comments here indicate. Who said anything about being "careless?"

What amazes me is these are sentiments of elder so called wiser people?Hello pot.



Ahso!;1270839 wrote: A lot of Mind-blindness More pot/kettle stuff. :rolleyes:

Frankly I can't decide if you're just being blind (if not even pompous) about this or cheated on someone and are trying to justify why you deserve another chance, or both. Either way I can't take you seriously on this

btw:

narrow-minded - Wiktionary

joey2000;1270848 wrote: Who said anything about being "careless?"

Hello pot.



More pot/kettle stuff. :rolleyes:

Frankly I can't decide if you're just being blind (if not even pompous) about this or cheated on someone and are trying to justify why you deserve another chance, or both. Either way I can't take you seriously on this

btw:

narrow-minded - Wiktionary strongly defensive.

Ahh, I see you guys have a personal public thing going on here.

*Meg exists room*

fuzzywuzzy;1270860 wrote: Ahh, I see you guys have a personal public thing going on here.

*Meg exists room*It's called an adult discussion about a difficult subject. Flippant reactions to it are interesting though.

fuzzywuzzy;1270860 wrote: Ahh, I see you guys have a personal public thing going on here.

*Meg exists room*


oh you noticed! good thought it was just me ,, or i had gone invisible again:-2hate it when that happens :-5:yh_rotfl