ForumGarden

I learned a lot from this article and wanted to share it with you. This information has helped me learn that I don't always debate effectively and I can use this information as well when replying to non-debate threads.

While debates have been a hot topic during the past several months, the truth is that the importance of debating issues is rapidly falling by the wayside. Having become a forum for personal attacks, snide comments and ridicule, today’s debates hold none of the dignity of the discourses they were intended to be. Constructive debating, that is debating with the goal of educating and being educated on issues in order to elevate all involved is an art. With all this in mind, the following suggestions are offered for effective debating:

Reference Facts Accurately During the Debate

Facts support your points. They should be well-researched and correctly stated and they should come from irrefutable sources. Don’t quote an individual and expect those in opposition to automatically take your word on this matter. Better to incorporate statistics and generally accepted facts than to use anecdotal evidence which can be easily dismissed.

Make Your Points in the Debate Clearly

Don’t use terms that are ambiguous, open to interpretation or that require specialized knowledge to understand. When speaking to like-minded people you can assume with relative comfort that they will understand your meaning. In an open forum, however, this is not always the case. Use of vernacular sets you up to be misunderstood and that is precisely the opposite of your goal in any debate.

Set Aside Your Ego and Emotion During the Debate

Emotionally charged words may knock your opponent off his or her game, but that type of rhetoric will only backfire as cooler heads see through the flash and find no substance. Racial, ethnic, or religious slurs have no place in a rational debate, nor do personal attacks. Attention should be focused instead on the problem or problems in question.

Do Your Homework Before the Debate

Before entering into any debate there are two things you should understand: your position and that of your opponent. If you don’t have a thorough understanding of your position you’ll never be able to explain it to anyone else. The same goes with the holes you are attempting to poke in your opponent’s logic. If you don’t thoroughly understand all aspects (and subtle nuances) of his argument, you stand a good chance of proving his point instead of your own. One technique is to take the position with which you do not agree during a discussion with a colleague or friend as a way to grasp all sides of he issue. Its been said that if you can defend it you can break it down in a debate.

Good advice. :yh_clap:yh_clap:yh_clap

Yeah, all well and good. But I was here for an argument:yh_rotfl

No you weren't! :sneaky::yh_rotfl

fuzzywuzzy;1279009 wrote: Yeah, all well and good. But I was here for an argument:yh_rotfl


Very honest of you fuzzy :yh_rotfl

Thanks for the information, Jazzy, it's very helpful. I fall so short much of the time, but having had the pleasure of hanging with people such as Spot, yaaarrrgg, Clodhopper, Elvira, Rapunzal and a few others here at FG, I've been educated on this subject. I'm not there yet but I think I'm getting better.

Thanks to all those whom have been an example.

Koan also posted a thread years ago, on this subject too, which is very informative.

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... e-pro.html

Mustang;1279038 wrote: Koan also posted a thread years ago, on this subject too, which is very informative.

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... htmlThanks for that link, Mustang.

Mustang;1279038 wrote: Koan also posted a thread years ago, on this subject too, which is very informative.

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/gener ... e-pro.html


Thank you for the post link Mustang as it was very informative. I think the two most important things I have learned was if I am going to make a statement, then I better be prepared to back my statement up with facts. The other is that if I am not willing to set aside my emotions on certain subjects I can do more harm than good. I think it really boils down to think it through before you post and if you can't, then don't post at all.

Betty Boop;1279013 wrote: Very honest of you fuzzy :yh_rotfl


I was directed down the hall to another thread :yh_rotfl

No you weren't!


Oh yes I was.:yh_rotfl

A debate is a well constructed series of arguments and ideas put forth, which progresses to both parties having an understanding and conclusion - in acceptance of different viewpoints.

BORING!!!!!:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

I'm not here for that !!!!!......I want to see some gutsy argument and true belief structures. And then see members change their minds as they grow in understanding. Hell, world leaders get away with that all the time.

:D

Reference Facts Accurately During the Debate
- plagerise

Make Your Points in the Debate Clearly
- "Rack off and shut the hell up I'm talking at the moment. Are you deaf?"

Set Aside Your Ego and Emotion During the Debate
- people wouldn't bother debating if they didn't feel strongly about something ...anything.

Do Your Homework Before the Debate


- Yep!!! use other peoples (experts?) opinions and use those arguments to make your point instead of telling people what you really think.

You know i was a champion debator at school. and you know where it got us? Arguing points of reference that was acceptable to the schools involved. didn't teach us a damned thing. "you can't say that ...and you can't say this" load of rubbish .

I think it's very important to define your terms clearly from the start, and agree those terms, so that participants are all on the same page. The thread about rights shows how different understandings of a term can produce different results. You can get several parallel debates going otherwise, all of which may be valid in themselves - but it's chalk and cheese.

I also think it is important for participants in any kind of serious debate to have a reasonable grip of logic and constructing an argument. This is a formal mathematical type subject which needs to be learned. It doesn't mean you are stupid if you've never been taught logic - but it does make it difficult to argue persuasively. Of course, knowing the rules means you can also toss them to the winds and kick up your heels playfully as happens in the forum from time to time.

This forum has a formal debating area. Maybe some people use it. I think Spot moderates that. Those Oxbridge kinds of debates of course involve more than logical argument. They are about scoring points and showmanship. A good debater can argue either side of the question, with equal power and may not display his or her personal views at all. Devil's advocating is arguing against your own personal viewpoint.

I don't like anyone's chances of grooming us motley crew of Forum Gardeners into debating champs... This is mainly a discussion / chat etc forum where people come to let it all hang out, emotionally etc and fight anyone who disagrees with them. It's where I can happily hold two totally conflicting views at the same time and will merrily clobber anyone who doesn't like that. It's where sometimes I don't know what I think about something till I've read what I've written. Then usually I don't know even then.

But it's nice to talk to you all...:sneaky:

As in define "rights" as a political industrial measure or with a moral recompencive outlook?

You're doing my trick ..your post just grew :wah:

This is mainly a discussion / chat etc forum where people come to let it all hang out, emotionally etc and fight anyone who disagrees with them. It's where I can happily hold two totally conflicting views at the same time and will happily clobber anyone who doesn't like that. It's where sometimes I don't know what I think about something till I've read what I've written. Then usually I don't know even then.


See now you're talking!!!:yh_rotfl If I wanted to look at clear and concise debating I'd watch parliament.................Hmmm maybe not.:wah:

Philosophical concept of the word v things that we here now believe would be desirable and pleasant for all humans. Sometimes it's really hard to get into the semantics of something. Every word is loaded, and this load may vary depending on our time, place, worldview. I keep getting stuck on the meaning of meaning... :sneaky:



And who needs intellectual rigor when a good mudwrassle is on offer?

Yes it did grow... I was still on the soapbox.

I just popped back to say something of the sort Pam just did from her soapbox. But she said it much better.

We can't of course have debating style rules for the general discussion and silliness (in the best sense of the word ) that goes on here. But when things get serious, Jazzy's rules are a good basic guideline.

Ahso: Well, I'm glad I could help. Won't stop me putting my foot in it right up to the neck at some point in the future, though! :rolleyes:

Ahso: Well, I'm glad I could help. Won't stop me putting my foot in it right up to the neck at some point in the future, though!


Jump in, the water is fine.

What I notice is, people who debate well also seem to have fairly refined skills and abilities to communicate effectively in casual conversation too. I think that comes from the discipline of adhering to debating rules. Those people appear to have an ability to sidestep certain sloppy conversational behaviors and maintain an air of sophistication which I admire. Also, due to all above mentioned, these people have excellent sentence and paragraph structure. Its a joy to read what others write when its done so cleanly.

I guess in a nutshell, they're actually just really anal though.:wah:

But hopefully anal in a stylish way... :sneaky:

Fuzzy:

YouTube - The Vicar of Dibley - Stalking!

Vicar of Dibley - Stalking.

"Argument Clinic".

The Cast (in order of appearance.)

M= Man looking for an argument

R= Receptionist

Q= Abuser

A= Arguer (John Cleese)

C= Complainer (Eric Idle)

H= Head Hitter



M: Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

R: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

M: No, I haven't, this is my first time.

R: I see. Well, do you want to have just one argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

M: Well, what is the cost?

R: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

M: Well, I think it would be best if I perhaps started off with just the one and then see how it goes.

R: Fine. Well, I'll see who's free at the moment.

Pause

R: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory.

Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

M: Thank you.

(Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Q: WHAT DO YOU WANT?

M: Well, I was told outside that...

Q: Don't give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!

M: What?

Q: Shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type really makes me puke, you vacuous, coffee-nosed, maloderous, pervert!!!

M: Look, I CAME HERE FOR AN ARGUMENT, I'm not going to just stand...!!

Q: OH, oh I'm sorry, but this is abuse.

M: Oh, I see, well, that explains it.

Q: Ah yes, you want room 12A, Just along the corridor.

M: Oh, Thank you very much. Sorry.

Q: Not at all.

M: Thank You.

(Under his breath) Stupid git!!

(Walk down the corridor)

M: (Knock)

A: Come in.

M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?

A: I told you once.

M: No you haven't.

A: Yes I have.

M: When?

A: Just now.

M: No you didn't.

A: Yes I did.

M: You didn't

A: I did!

M: You didn't!

A: I'm telling you I did!

M: You did not!!

A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?

M: Oh, just the five minutes.

A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not.

A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.

M: No you did not.

A: Yes I did.

M: No you didn't.

A: Yes I did.

M: No you didn't.

A: Yes I did.

M: No you didn't.

A: Yes I did.

M: You didn't.

A: Did.

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.

A: Yes it is.

M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.

A: No it isn't.

M: It is!

A: It is not.

M: Look, you just contradicted me.

A: I did not.

M: Oh you did!!

A: No, no, no.

M: You did just then.

A: Nonsense!

M: Oh, this is futile!

A: No it isn't.

M: I came here for a good argument.

A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

A: It can be.

M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

A: No it isn't.

M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.

A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'

A: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

A: Yes it is!

M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

(short pause)

A: No it isn't.

M: It is.

A: Not at all.

M: Now look.

A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.

M: What?

A: That's it. Good morning.

M: I was just getting interested.

A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes!

A: I'm afraid it was.

M: It wasn't.

Pause

A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.

M: What?!

A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!

A: (Hums)

M: Look, this is ridiculous.

A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

M: Oh, all right.

(pays money)

A: Thank you.

short pause

M: Well?

A: Well what?

M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.

A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.

M: I just paid!

A: No you didn't.

M: I DID!

A: No you didn't.

M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.

A: Well, you didn't pay.

M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!

A: No you haven't.

M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.

A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.

M: Oh I've had enough of this.

A: No you haven't.

M: Oh Shut up.

(Walks down the stairs. Opens door.)

M: I want to complain.

C: You want to complain! Look at these shoes. I've only had them three weeks and the heels are worn right through.

M: No, I want to complain about...

C: If you complain nothing happens, you might as well not bother.

M: Oh!

C: Oh my back hurts, it's not a very fine day and I'm sick and tired of this office.



(Slams door. walks down corridor, opens next door.)

M: Hello, I want to... Ooooh!

H: No, no, no. Hold your head like this, then go Waaah. Try it again.

M: uuuwwhh!!

H: Better, Better, but Waah, Waah! Put your hand there.

M: No.

H: Now..

M: Waaaaah!!!

H: Good, Good! That's it.

M: Stop hitting me!!

H: What?

M: Stop hitting me!!

H: Stop hitting you?

M: Yes!

H: Why did you come in here then?

M: I wanted to complain.

H: Oh no, that's next door. It's being-hit-on-the-head lessons in here.

M: What a stupid concept.

Excellent, Saint!!

I love John Cleese. Have you ever seen any of his management videos? My husband was at Cambridge with him, reading law. Says he hasn't changed.

And the Vicar in love... that was indeed a great episode, thanks Clodders.

ummm that's what I meant by coming here for an argument ...geesh talk about slow.

That was great Clod. I love that show.