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culture changes is relating of where we live.. however,it's funny how do we (some Arabs) think about westerners and how do (some westerners)think about us? :wah:





:yh_rotfl

it's kind of strange how (some not all) people think this way, because we are living in the era of technology and information so we can know how people really live their lives.. not like what you see in that funny picture..

M.A.S;1326634 wrote: culture changes is relating of where we live.. however,it's funny how do we (some Arabs) think about westerners and how do (some westerners)think about us? :wah:





:yh_rotfl

it's kind of strange how (some not all) people think this way, because we are living in the era of technology and information so we can know how people really live their lives.. not like what you see in that funny picture..


Not me---------I think more about the recent photo of a young woman that had her nose and ears cut off for SUSPECTED adultery and of another video of a woman being stoned to death for SUSPECTED adultry. Of course with the Saudi's filtering of such photos and video's you might have missed it.

M.A.S;1326634 wrote: culture changes is relating of where we live.. however,it's funny how do we (some Arabs) think about westerners and how do (some westerners)think about us? :wah:



How do You as a Saudi see the way Westerners View Arabs? And... how do you view Westerners?

Lon;1326655 wrote: Not me---------I think more about the recent photo of a young woman that had her nose and ears cut off for SUSPECTED adultery and of another video of a woman being stoned to death for SUSPECTED adultry. Of course with the Saudi's filtering of such photos and video's you might have missed it.


first of all, using rules is one of society's rights... in our religion, adultery is not allowed and there is a punishment for that.. but cutting noses and ears is not the punishment that should be done!! and the one who did that is classified as a criminal that has to be in jail for many years.. the right punishment for adultery is to strike both man and women who did it on their feet..

we respect human rights indeed but our rules have not to be broken..

thanks for sharing your thoughts sir :yh_smiley

oscar;1326667 wrote: How do You as a Saudi see the way Westerners View Arabs? And... how do you view Westerners?


i'll answer your both questions in one answer..

I (( as a Saudi )) think about westerners as they are well- organized people.. they respect time and very interested in science and technology.. they really care about how do they create affective generations to.. you may have some things that we as Arabs do not like but the point is we always should at the good side of any society..

however, I believe that every country, continent or society has good and bad things..

:-6

M.A.S;1326704 wrote: the right punishment for adultery is to strike both man and women who did it on their feet..

we respect human rights indeed but our rules have not to be broken..

thanks for sharing your thoughts sir :yh_smiley
If you respect Human Rights then respect the right that a human being has the right to be free to have sex with who they choose. If they do not take their wedding vows seriously and commit adultery, that is up to them. How can you condone violence toward another human being?

oscar;1326709 wrote: If you respect Human Rights then respect the right that a human being has the right to be free to have sex with who they choose. If they do not take their wedding vows seriously and commit adultery, that is up to them. How can you condone violence toward another human being?


i'm sure guaranteed that you know that wedding is very respectful thing in our lives..

however, relationships are not totally built on sex.. if that guy who really loves that girl and want to spent his life with her.. well, wedding is the only way to save the women's right because wedding is not only connection between bodied, it's connection between souls indeed .. when that guy has sex with a girl, he may dump her when she is pregnant.. who is going to save this women rights ??!!

finally, wedding is the only way to express you sexual energy.

I respect your believes and ideas as well:)

M.A.S;1326718 wrote: i'm sure guaranteed that you know that wedding is very respectful thing in our lives..

however, relationships are not totally built on sex.. if that guy who really loves that girl and want to spent his life with her.. well, wedding is the only way to save the women's right because wedding is not only connection between bodied, it's connection between souls indeed .. when that guy has sex with a girl, he may dump her when she is pregnant.. who is going to save this women rights ??!!

finally, wedding is the only way to express you sexual energy.

I respect your believes and ideas as well:) I agree as I take my wedding vows very seriously but what I do not understand In your culture Is that you say you hit both the man and the woman on their feet. I am actually all for the death Penalty being re-Instated In England so I am not against capitol punishment but I fail to see how adultery Is a crime In the legal senses warranting a beating. Marraige vows are a bond between two people who love each other... they are not breaking the law If they choose to Ignore them later In the marraige.

oscar;1326709 wrote: If you respect Human Rights then respect the right that a human being has the right to be free to have sex with who they choose. If they do not take their wedding vows seriously and commit adultery, that is up to them. How can you condone violence toward another human being?


It is only in our debauched secular society that people have the "right" to have sex with whom they choose. According to the Christian Church fornication and adultery are sins punishable by death - the wedding vows are a promise to God that cannot be put apart by the will of man.

Bryn Mawr;1326735 wrote: It is only in our debauched secular society that people have the "right" to have sex with whom they choose. According to the Christian Church fornication and adultery are sins punishable by death - the wedding vows are a promise to God that cannot be put apart by the will of man.
That Is an Insult Bryn... I took my marraige vows very seriously and still do. I choose to honour my vows but you are missing the entire point of my post. Adultery Is not a criminal offence, In religion may be. Should either partner In a marraige choose to break their wedding vows, they are not breaking the law and should there-fore not be beaten for It.

May be If Saudi Law was not so severe to women, they could be free to divorce and be with the person of their choice.... That I believe Is human rights and not forcing a couple to stay In a marraige or face being beaten. You know as well as I do that If the BNP proposed the same here, you would be screaming human rights from the roof-tops. Do not be a hypocrite.

oscar;1326736 wrote: That Is an Insult Bryn... I took my marraige vows very seriously and still do. I choose to honour my vows but you are missing the entire point of my post. Adultery Is not a criminal offence, In religion may be. Should either partner In a marraige choose to break their wedding vows, they are not breaking the law and should there-fore not be beaten for It.


It is you this misses the point.

You are comparing a secular society to a religious one. In our society we work by the law of the land, in Saudi society they work by the law of the Qu'ran. In one adultery is not a crime but in the other, as it would be within the Christian Church, it is breaking your vow to God which is as serious a crime as you can get.

I insult no-one, I just observe the way of the world - if you (impersonal) believe in the tenets of your Church then it is a crime deserving punishment, if you (impersonal) are a non-believer then *your* (impersonal) actions are free of guilt. As you (singular) have not broken your vows then you do not need to take this as a personal accusation.

oscar;1326720 wrote: I agree as I take my wedding vows very seriously but what I do not understand In your culture Is that you say you hit both the man and the woman on their feet. I am actually all for the death Penalty being re-Instated In England so I am not against capitol punishment but I fail to see how adultery Is a crime In the legal senses warranting a beating. Marraige vows are a bond between two people who love each other... they are not breaking the law If they choose to Ignore them later In the marraige.


I believe that we have some differences between our and your culture but i'm sure also that we have some basic common factors indeed... we have clear rules, and these rules have to be obeyed by people in that specific region.. let me give you an example so i can explain what i need to say: here it is

when someone is merchant who has very expensive diamond, that guy will not sell that diamond without legal and clear official papers from a court or business agreement.. look how this guy is very careful with that beautiful diamond..

well, we consider women in our religion "Islam" as a diamonds that cannot get involved in a relationship without vows wedding.. so everybody((friends, family and people)) share the happiness and the time when that expensive and gorgeous diamond (women) get married..



do you really think that woman and girls are cheap???!!

well, i do not think so... and i believe that every girl in the world (not only in my culture) is a diamond which has to be respected and treated as special human being..

however, if a thief stole that diamond, the proper action is that police will search for him and put him in jail and apply a punishment..

women also are not cheap soul so we don't take car of her..

women is my mother, sister and wife.. women is really rare and expensive in our lives..

M.A.S;1326704 wrote: first of all, using rules is one of society's rights... in our religion, adultery is not allowed and there is a punishment for that.. but cutting noses and ears is not the punishment that should be done!! and the one who did that is classified as a criminal that has to be in jail for many years.. the right punishment for adultery is to strike both man and women who did it on their feet..

we respect human rights indeed but our rules have not to be broken..

thanks for sharing your thoughts sir :yh_smiley


I have no problem with any country or religion following their particular laws, but your question was how the west views the Middle East, and unfortunately the extremists of Islam are getting all the press and news coverage. An analogy would be the Civil Rights Movement in the U.S. in the 60's depicting the burning of black churches, beating and killing of black people etc. That was the image that the U.S. put out to the world at that time. Of course, that did not speak of the attitude of the entire country or the various religious denominations.

Today in the U.S. Press------------------this influences U.S. opinion on the Middle East---------

Taliban Execute Pregnant Woman

Hello Mas and welcome to our garden. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

We've had some lovely members from Middle Eastern Countries, but they soon disappeared when we questioned their attitude towards women amongst other issues. Instead of having a normal discussion, they constantly quoted their religious beliefs. I just gave up trying to understand their point of view because I felt it was always one sided.

My question will always be....."Why do Middle Eastern Countries always try to control their women?" Why do women not have the same rights as men?

Please don't say that women are on an equal par with men, and that the men are trying to protect their women's honor.

Why are men allowed to walk half naked at my beach here at the Jersey shore and walk along the boardwalk playing ball with their kids and the women are standing by their car dressed in burkas or similar dress in 90F/32C?

I honestly mean no disrespect here Mas as I am truly interested in your culture and your thoughts. But, I would like an honest answer instead of quotes from your religious thoughts.

Women have the right to be free thinkers and do not need to be controlled by anyone.

Kathy Ellen;1326765 wrote: Hello Mas and welcome to our garden. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

We've had some lovely members from Middle Eastern Countries, but they soon disappeared when we questioned their attitude towards women amongst other issues. Instead of having a normal discussion, they constantly quoted their religious beliefs. I just gave up trying to understand their point of view because I felt it was always one sided.

My question will always be....."Why do Middle Eastern Countries always try to control their women?" Why do women not have the same rights as men?

Please don't say that women are on an equal par with men, and that the men are trying to protect their women's honor.

Why are men allowed to walk half naked at my beach here at the Jersey shore and walk along the boardwalk playing ball with their kids and the women are standing by their car dressed in burkas or similar dress in 90F/32C?

I honestly mean no disrespect here Mas as I am truly interested in your culture and your thoughts. But, I would like an honest answer instead of quotes from your religious thoughts.

Women have the right to be free thinkers and do not need to be controlled by anyone.
Great post Kathy

Kathy Ellen;1326765 wrote: Hello Mas and welcome to our garden. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

We've had some lovely members from Middle Eastern Countries, but they soon disappeared when we questioned their attitude towards women amongst other issues. Instead of having a normal discussion, they constantly quoted their religious beliefs. I just gave up trying to understand their point of view because I felt it was always one sided.

My question will always be....."Why do Middle Eastern Countries always try to control their women?" Why do women not have the same rights as men?

Please don't say that women are on an equal par with men, and that the men are trying to protect their women's honor.

Why are men allowed to walk half naked at my beach here at the Jersey shore and walk along the boardwalk playing ball with their kids and the women are standing by their car dressed in burkas or similar dress in 90F/32C?

I honestly mean no disrespect here Mas as I am truly interested in your culture and your thoughts. But, I would like an honest answer instead of quotes from your religious thoughts.

Women have the right to be free thinkers and do not need to be controlled by anyone.


I agree Kathy, women do have the right to think on their own and not be contolled by anyone.

No one has the right to control anyone nor punish them for it.



I just watched a documentary, because a women refused to marry the man her dad wanted her to, he killed her.........

Lon;1326761 wrote: Today in the U.S. Press------------------this influences U.S. opinion on the Middle East---------

Taliban Execute Pregnant Woman


well, i hate this country and how they think..

these who killed her are murders.. they killed her and her baby : (

but Afghanistan is not representing the Middle East i believe

Kathy Ellen;1326765 wrote: Hello Mas and welcome to our garden. I hope you enjoy your stay here.

We've had some lovely members from Middle Eastern Countries, but they soon disappeared when we questioned their attitude towards women amongst other issues. Instead of having a normal discussion, they constantly quoted their religious beliefs. I just gave up trying to understand their point of view because I felt it was always one sided.

My question will always be....."Why do Middle Eastern Countries always try to control their women?" Why do women not have the same rights as men?

Please don't say that women are on an equal par with men, and that the men are trying to protect their women's honor.

Why are men allowed to walk half naked at my beach here at the Jersey shore and walk along the boardwalk playing ball with their kids and the women are standing by their car dressed in burkas or similar dress in 90F/32C?

I honestly mean no disrespect here Mas as I am truly interested in your culture and your thoughts. But, I would like an honest answer instead of quotes from your religious thoughts.

Women have the right to be free thinkers and do not need to be controlled by anyone.


thanks Kathy Ellen and i'm already enjoying my stay between you..

ok let me start answering your questions:

well, you got what you need, i'm not going to quote and i'll try my best to have normal and clear discussion..

first, i grew up in a family which has no discrimination between genders... i believe what you want is that we have sexism.. in our holly book "Qu'ran" and what prophet Mohammad said that they is no different between men and women.. but a lot of Arabs and Muslims are not taking this seriously and they treat their wives in insulting way.. and that's very wrong..

and women should have fun at any beach as well as men have.. but, she should wear a "Hejab" which a thing that covers women's hair and nick.. and wear respectful clothes as well..

speaking of rules, Men and Women should wear respectful clothes not only women as a lot of people do.. bikini's are forbidden publicly but between her and her husband she can wear nothing :-6...

imagine a girl on a beach with bikini, any one sees her will be turned on (sexually activated), and that is disrespectful thing for her.. and imagine a man walking with just underwear, that's also disrespectful..

unfortunately, I know a lot of people are not following the correct rules, they just take what they want and do it.. but that's not the correct way.. also these stupid Taleban and some countries are taking Islam to cover their crimes which give a bad ideas and thoughts about it.. and the are taking Islam as a cover because it looks nasty, they're taking it as a cover so they destroy it's reputation.. i'm really sad i see girls and women are treated this way.. and i'm sad that my religion is understood in a bad way for some people.. But i'm happy i can clarify the correct Islam..

I'm happy to answer your questions indeed too

M.A.S;1326772 wrote: thanks Kathy Ellen and i'm already enjoying my stay between you..

ok let me start answering your questions:

well, you got what you need, i'm not going to quote and i'll try my best to have normal and clear discussion..

first, i grew up in a family which has no discrimination between genders... i believe what you want is that we have sexism.. in our holly book "Qu'ran" and what prophet Mohammad said that they is no different between men and women.. but a lot of Arabs and Muslims are not taking this seriously and they treat their wives in insulting way.. and that's very wrong..

and women should have fun at any beach as well as men have.. but, she should wear a "Hejab" which a thing that covers women's hair and nick.. and wear respectful clothes as well..

speaking of rules, Men and Women should wear respectful clothes not only women as a lot of people do.. bikini's are forbidden publicly but between her and her husband she can wear nothing :-6...

imagine a girl on a beach with bikini, any one sees her will be turned on (sexually activated), and that is disrespectful thing for her.. and imagine a man walking with just underwear, that's also disrespectful..

unfortunately, I know a lot of people are not following the correct rules, they just take what they want and do it.. but that's not the correct way.. also these stupid Taleban and some countries are taking Islam to cover their crimes which give a bad ideas and thoughts about it.. and the are taking Islam as a cover because it looks nasty, they're taking it as a cover so they destroy it's reputation.. i'm really sad i see girls and women are treated this way.. and i'm sad that my religion is understood in a bad way for some people.. But i'm happy i can clarify the correct Islam..

I'm happy to answer your questions indeed too Then I beg to differ... the Koran states that women are second class to man.

The Koran instructs men to beat their wives: Six translations of Qur'an 4:34

Six translations of Qur'an 4:34:

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!" (Rodwell's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme." (Dawood's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great." (Pickthall's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great." (Arberry's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. (Shakir's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

How do you explain this Mas???

Thinkit's a bit unfair on poor MAS to have to try to justify everything Islamic ever.

On the "what women should wear and going on the beach in bikinis, much of it is what you are used to. Nowadays, men and women go on the beach in their underwear (we call them swimming trunks and bikinis). Anyone is allowed to LOOK. What you are not allowed to do is STARE. For most people this is not a problem. I can see it would be shocking to someone not used to it. 100 years ago our dress code was very severe. Women's ankles were regarded as too sexy to be seen. Ankles. In India women's shoulders are reckoned very sexy and only whores show them in public. To western eyes, Islamic men come across as repressed sex maniacs who can so little be trusted with women that the women have to be hidden. If an Islamic man saw a woman's knee, he would be obsessed and unable to think of anything else. To western eyes, Muslim men fear and hate women, because they treat them like slaves or possessions.

Western men are used to much higher levels of nudity and generally it is no big deal. However, this more permissive society has its down side. We do have issues with teenage single Mums, for example. But I'd rather that, than a society that tortures by law. We do not live in Mediaeval times, when an uneducated population may have needed graphic demonstrations of power. You no longer enter London through a gate decorated with the heads of criminals, for example. Rape is wrong. So is locking up people who have committed no crime. To Western eyes Muslim women are locked up, and for the reasons given, this is seen as wrong.

And, as you can see, Western women feel very strongly about this issue. As a man, I wonder what your women would say if they weren't afraid of being beaten, stoned, beheaded and shot by their own fathers, brothers and uncles.

Unfortunately, some western societies have over-reacted. I am not in favour of banning the burka as the French have done. Personal dress is a matter of personal choice and if a woman wants to wear the full thing, that's her right. As it is her right not to wear it if she doesn't want to. The key issue is the freedom of choice of the individual.

What, to you, MAS, is the most strange or even shocking thing about Western society?

Clodhopper;1326797 wrote: Thinkit's a bit unfair on poor MAS to have to try to justify everything Islamic ever.

On the "what women should wear and going on the beach in bikinis, much of it is what you are used to. Nowadays, men and women go on the beach in their underwear (we call them swimming trunks and bikinis). Anyone is allowed to LOOK. What you are not allowed to do is STARE. For most people this is not a problem. I can see it would be shocking to someone not used to it. 100 years ago our dress code was very severe. Women's ankles were regarded as too sexy to be seen. Ankles. In India women's shoulders are reckoned very sexy and only whores show them in public. To western eyes, Islamic men come across as repressed sex maniacs who can so little be trusted with women that the women have to be hidden. If an Islamic man saw a woman's knee, he would be obsessed and unable to think of anything else. To western eyes, Muslim men fear and hate women, because they treat them like slaves or possessions.

Western men are used to much higher levels of nudity and generally it is no big deal. However, this more permissive society has its down side. We do have issues with teenage single Mums, for example. But I'd rather that, than a society that tortures by law. We do not live in Mediaeval times, when an uneducated population may have needed graphic demonstrations of power. You no longer enter London through a gate decorated with the heads of criminals, for example. Rape is wrong. So is locking up people who have committed no crime. To Western eyes Muslim women are locked up, and for the reasons given, this is seen as wrong.

And, as you can see, Western women feel very strongly about this issue. As a man, I wonder what your women would say if they weren't afraid of being beaten, stoned, beheaded and shot by their own fathers, brothers and uncles.

Unfortunately, some western societies have over-reacted. I am not in favour of banning the burka as the French have done. Personal dress is a matter of personal choice and if a woman wants to wear the full thing, that's her right. As it is her right not to wear it if she doesn't want to. The key issue is the freedom of choice of the individual.

What, to you, MAS, is the most strange or even shocking thing about Western society? I have not asked Mas to explain all things Islamic... I have questioned his statement that Allah see's men and women as equal when I know the Koran says other-wise..

I agree with all of your post In the main but this country is full of hypocrisy. I do not see why a young teenager wearing a Hoodie who may be a decent lad being told he must remove his hood In a Supermarket or any shop and then allow Muslim women In full Burka with just their eyes showing. I agree with you In that a Muslim Lady should be allowed the choice weather to wear the Burka or not but let us not be hypocrites In the name of religion. We either have a rule for all or none at all.

My closest friends are from the ME and Muslim. We spend an average of 4 days with them In and out of each others houses. My friend came here 8 years ago for Freedom... to be free to go shopping, drive a car etc etc .. All the things we take for granted. We have talked about her life In the ME many times and she tells me that If she were still there, she would be second class and forced to stay In the home, unable to work, just pandering to the men In the family. She has told me, that is the way It is out there.

She has some relatives over at the moment and one Aunt from the ME although we have to use my friend as an Interpreter, tells us that her lot In life Is to serve the men In the family.

I welcomed her when she arrived and suggested she joined my friend and I to go to lunch, shopping etc etc.. She could not because she Is not allowed to !! Her so called holiday In England has been sitting In the house and cleaning for the men. At all times her head must be covered when our temperatures were up to 90 last week...Meanwhile, her teenage sons on visiting England were free to go Bowling, shopping, sight-seeing etc etc...

I said: Thinkit's a bit unfair on poor MAS to have to try to justify everything Islamic ever.


You replied: I have not asked Mas to explain all things Islamic... I have questioned his statement that Allah see's men and women as equal when I know the Koran says other-wise..


That was a general comment. chuckle. He's been asked a lot of difficult questions. Might take him a while to respond in detail to all of them.

I'm not clear on the law regarding hoodies. Didn't think there was one. I thought it was down to the individual supermarket or shop whether they served someone or not, walking a fine line between security and discrimination.

I think there is a case for regarding today's youth as a persecuted minority, but that's another thread.

Interesting story about your friends.

Clodhopper;1326812 wrote: I said:

You replied:



That was a general comment. chuckle. He's been asked a lot of difficult questions. Might take him a while to respond in detail to all of them.

I'm not clear on the law regarding hoodies. Didn't think there was one. I thought it was down to the individual supermarket or shop whether they served someone or not, walking a fine line between security and discrimination.

I think there is a case for regarding today's youth as a persecuted minority, but that's another thread.

Interesting story about your friends.
Yes, It is up to the shop or Supermarket but the hypocrisy Is still there.

As I said, my friend came here for the freedom but she Is married to a Muslim like her... my husbands closest friend. While her husband Is the most lovely generous man I have ever met, the way he treats his wife, my friend, riles me. She works In one of the take-aways 13 hours a day, 6 days a week but recieves no wage because It Is her duty as a wife to do this. She arrives home from the take-away at around 1 In the morning, then she has to shower and prepare the food for all the men In the house-hold as the male relatives live there also. After doing all this, she may get on her laptop only to be told to fetch drinks. Before going to the take-away In the morning, she has to do all the laundry and all the cleaning for the men as this Is her duty as a wife also.

Although In British law, she Is the rightful owner of half of the business's and assets, she Is never consulted when It comes to money or business dealings. She accepts this because she tells me, that Is how Muslim men do things.

Although my husband and him are very close friends, he stares In amazement If my husband should mention that he did the laundry that day and he just can not understand why my husband feels the need to help around the house.

I have actually seen my husbands pal one foot away from a bottle of coke yet call her In to tell her to fill his glass.

That Is the real life of how Muslim women live.

oscar;1326816 wrote: Yes, It is up to the shop or Supermarket but the hypocrisy Is still there.

As I said, my friend came here for the freedom but she Is married to a Muslim like her... my husbands closest friend. While her husband Is the most lovely generous man I have ever met, the way he treats his wife, my friend, riles me. She works In one of the take-aways 13 hours a day, 6 days a week but recieves no wage because It Is her duty as a wife to do this. She arrives home from the take-away at around 1 In the morning, then she has to shower and prepare the food for all the men In the house-hold as the male relatives live there also. After doing all this, she may get on her laptop only to be told to fetch drinks. Before going to the take-away In the morning, she has to do all the laundry and all the cleaning for the men as this Is her duty as a wife also.

Although In British law, she Is the rightful owner of half of the business's and assets, she Is never consulted when It comes to money or business dealings. She accepts this because she tells me, that Is how Muslim men do things.

Although my husband and him are very close friends, he stares In amazement If my husband should mention that he did the laundry that day and he just can not understand why my husband feels the need to help around the house.

I have actually seen my husbands pal one foot away from a bottle of coke yet call her In to tell her to fill his glass.

That Is the real life of how Muslim women live.


I have to say Oscar that I have witnessed that sort of behaviour from males over the years, none of them were muslims!

Statements that claim that only muslim women remain the only repressed women in the world make me laugh, many women in the western world are still incredibly repressed.

Betty Boop;1326821 wrote: I have to say Oscar that I have witnessed that sort of behaviour from males over the years, none of them were muslims!

Statements that claim that only muslim women remain the only repressed women in the world make me laugh, many women in the western world are still incredibly repressed.
I agree with British women being treated like that but from my own experience with my ex husband, It Is through fear of loss, or fear of violence and Intimidation.

Muslim women do not do It under violence or Intimidation as such... Just the way they are raised In the ME.

oscar;1326824 wrote: I agree with British women being treated like that but from my own experience with my ex husband, It Is through fear of loss, or fear of violence and Intimidation.

Muslim women do not do It under violence or Intimidation as such... Just the way they are raised In the ME.


So, the muslim women accept it and embrace it as part of their lives, with some taking great pride in the looking after of their menfolk. Who am I to come along and say that that is wrong is my point.

Betty Boop;1326825 wrote: So, the muslim women accept it and embrace it as part of their lives, with some taking great pride in the looking after of their menfolk. Who am I to come along and say that that is wrong is my point. Yes, I do agree as my friend takes great pride In her home and shop. However, she has told me that If she ever went back to the ME, her life would be even more restricted. She embraces the freedom that Britain gives her with just simple things like being able to choose her own clothes and being able to have her hair done.

oscar;1326786 wrote: Then I beg to differ... the Koran states that women are second class to man.

The Koran instructs men to beat their wives: Six translations of Qur'an 4:34

How do you explain this Mas???


the discussion now is becoming more interesting, isn't it??

well, I have an answer and an explanation :rolleyes:

a lot of provisions and legislation that comes from the holly Qur'an and what prophet said are outwardly different but they are the same with explanations... to explain what you want me to explain i'll take women and men as an example of outwardly difference..

a lot of common factors that women and men are the same:

* both have the right to live.

* both have the right to eat.

* both have the same priority to choose weather they want to marry or not.

* both have the same punishment when they do mistake by law.

* both have the same right to earn money and work..



and the differences that occurs between them..

* as science proved that men physically strength is stronger than women by 15%..

Who Is The Stronger Sex: Men or Women? - TRCB

* also women have stronger passion than men, as you know how mothers are kind to their children..:rolleyes:

the point that i want you to understand that there are things that men and women are the same and some things can be different between them.

finally, i admit that there is some sexism in our society but not all people.. for example, women cannot study engineering and geology in KSA.. : (

M.A.S;1326772 wrote: thanks Kathy Ellen and i'm already enjoying my stay between you..

ok let me start answering your questions:

well, you got what you need, i'm not going to quote and i'll try my best to have normal and clear discussion..

first, i grew up in a family which has no discrimination between genders... i believe what you want is that we have sexism.. in our holly book "Qu'ran" and what prophet Mohammad said that they is no different between men and women.. but a lot of Arabs and Muslims are not taking this seriously and they treat their wives in insulting way.. and that's very wrong..

and women should have fun at any beach as well as men have.. but, she should wear a "Hejab" which a thing that covers women's hair and nick.. and wear respectful clothes as well..

speaking of rules, Men and Women should wear respectful clothes not only women as a lot of people do.. bikini's are forbidden publicly but between her and her husband she can wear nothing :-6...

imagine a girl on a beach with bikini, any one sees her will be turned on (sexually activated), and that is disrespectful thing for her.. and imagine a man walking with just underwear, that's also disrespectful..

unfortunately, I know a lot of people are not following the correct rules, they just take what they want and do it.. but that's not the correct way.. also these stupid Taleban and some countries are taking Islam to cover their crimes which give a bad ideas and thoughts about it.. and the are taking Islam as a cover because it looks nasty, they're taking it as a cover so they destroy it's reputation.. i'm really sad i see girls and women are treated this way.. and i'm sad that my religion is understood in a bad way for some people.. But i'm happy i can clarify the correct Islam..

I'm happy to answer your questions indeed too


Hello Mas,

Thank you so much for answering my questions without quoting from a religious book. I truly appreciate all of your thoughts.

Hope you stick around and post more. Perhaps you could tell us some stories about your country and maybe share some pictures.

Oscar, I think its very dangerous to selectively quote from the Qur'an. There are different interpretations (and translations) to different passages as there are in the Bible. Its a futile exercise and one that will just get you bogged down with problems.

I think, particularly with Saudi Arabia, the perceived male domination in Islamic countries, is as of a consequence to interpretations of the scriptures, in order to justify an intolerant mindset by some men toward women. Its not peculiarly Islamic, many Christians have the same outlook , maybe not as extreme. I suspect there are many Western men who would love such a degree of control - and that is what it is, control - over their women and have it justified in law. I find it horrendous. Man - Woman equal as far as I'm concerned....my wife wouldn't have it any other way:wah:

There is probably much we could learn from each others culture, rather than highlighting the obvious gulf between us

I hope you stick around MAS. Its always refreshing to hear things from another prospective and it would be nice for us, as as already been mentioned, to discuss things without attaching Islamic holy scriptures and law to the subjects we are discussing. I think this has been a sticking point in conversations with some members from the Middle East particularly. Not always possible I suppose but it would be nice to try

MAS SAID "imagine a girl on a beach with bikini, any one sees her will be turned on (sexually activated), and that is disrespectful thing for her.. and imagine a man walking with just underwear, that's also disrespectful."

I disagree that any male can be turned on by viewing a bikini clad female. I can understand a male that has come from the Middle East and not having been exposed to much female nudity, getting turned on. But we in the U.S. over the years have been gradually exposed to less and less coverage of the female body, to the point where it is a ho hum thing. This is also happening with hard core pornography. It excites early on perhaps, but then becomes quite boring.

Lon;1326982 wrote: MAS SAID "imagine a girl on a beach with bikini, any one sees her will be turned on (sexually activated), and that is disrespectful thing for her.. and imagine a man walking with just underwear, that's also disrespectful."

I disagree that any male can be turned on by viewing a bikini clad female. I can understand a male that has come from the Middle East and not having been exposed to much female nudity, getting turned on. But we in the U.S. over the years have been gradually exposed to less and less coverage of the female body, to the point where it is a ho hum thing. This is also happening with hard core pornography. It excites early on perhaps, but then becomes quite boring.


I agree that wearing bikinis on the beach excites early perhaps, but then becomes quite boring..

well let me tell you something that is very important, the reason why westerners societies have problems with marriages and divorce related to a problem.. when your eyes get bored from seeing girls with bikinis, you'll be also bored when you have sex time with your wife and you may like a girl on that beach or where ever you see her then you'll cheat on your wife.. and that's called Brod sexual situation. that would effect adversely on families and people..

when i get married in the future, i just want to be turned on with my wife so we can have perfect sexually life :-4

M.A.S;1326993 wrote: I agree that wearing bikinis on the beach excites early perhaps, but then becomes quite boring..

well let me tell you something that is very important, the reason why westerners societies have problems with marriages and divorce related to a problem.. when your eyes get bored from seeing girls with bikinis, you'll be also bored when you have sex time with your wife and you may like a girl on that beach or where ever you see her then you'll cheat on your wife.. and that's called Brod sexual situation. that would effect adversely on families and people..

when i get married in the future, i just want to be turned on with my wife so we can have perfect sexually life :-4


Mas, I am 76 years old and must tell you that seeing girls in bikinis has nothing to do with having good and on going sexual relations with one's spouse. And as for infidelity, temptations are always with us in every manner that one could imagine. Cheating on one's spouse is a matter of character, conscience and loyalty, not exposure to nudity. Some cheat and some don't

M.A.S;1326993 wrote: I agree that wearing bikinis on the beach excites early perhaps, but then becomes quite boring..

well let me tell you something that is very important, the reason why westerners societies have problems with marriages and divorce related to a problem.. when your eyes get bored from seeing girls with bikinis, you'll be also bored when you have sex time with your wife and you may like a girl on that beach or where ever you see her then you'll cheat on your wife.. and that's called Brod sexual situation. that would effect adversely on families and people..

when i get married in the future, i just want to be turned on with my wife so we can have perfect sexually life :-4
Marraiges fall apart for many reasons and not because you start looking at Bikini clad young lovelies.... As we grow old together, our bodies grow old together. Take women who have had to have radical mysectomys after Breast Cancer.... Do all those husbands stary because their wife has lost her breasts? No, of course they do not. Do spouses stray If their partner loses their legs In a car accident? No, of course they do not. Marraige Is not about bodies and sex... It is about having a soul-mate that Is by your side what-ever life throws at you. Do wives leave their husbands because they have had prostate cancer and are unable to have sex any more? No of course they do not.

What destroys a marraige leading for a man to stray, Is not Bikini clad lovelies, but boredom... Lives can get In a rut and without new challenges giving the couple conversation and shared Interests, you stagnate... then you find your husband or wife has left...

Lon;1326997 wrote: Mas, I am 76 years old and must tell you that seeing girls in bikinis has nothing to do with having good and on going sexual relations with one's spouse. And as for infidelity, temptations are always with us in every manner that one could imagine. Cheating on one's spouse is a matter of character, conscience and loyalty, not exposure to nudity. Some cheat and some don't


sir, i believe that we approach a point where cultures and religions differ between us.. i'm not here to discuss my or your religion, i'm here to discuss thoughts and ideas to make sense.. that's why i don't like to quote from my sources..however, i really respect your culture and it's your freedom weather you like or dislike other people's cultures..

it's kind of strange how 52 KB picture has a lot things to tell :-6

M.A.S;1327039 wrote: sir, i believe that we approach a point where cultures and religions differ between us.. i'm not here to discuss my or your religion, i'm here to discuss thoughts and ideas to make sense.. that's why i don't like to quote from my sources..however, i really respect your culture and it's your freedom weather you like or dislike other people's cultures..

it's kind of strange how 52 KB picture has a lot things to tell :-6


Mas---How could you possibly introduce the question "How Do They Think Of Each Other" without religion and cultural differences being brought into the discussion? It was your post. As I am a non believer I am not constrained in any of my thinking by any religious beliefs or dogma. I respect and tolerate all beliefs and am happy that my non belief allows me to be physically safe here in the west. Not sure this would be the case if I lived in the Middle East and my non belief were a known. Stay with us Mas and participate in discussions, it's beneficial to all. Don't get upset with very pointed questions and comments.

M.A.S;1326704 wrote: first of all, using rules is one of society's rights... in our religion, adultery is not allowed and there is a punishment for that.. but cutting noses and ears is not the punishment that should be done!! and the one who did that is classified as a criminal that has to be in jail for many years.. the right punishment for adultery is to strike both man and women who did it on their feet..

we respect human rights indeed but our rules have not to be broken..

thanks for sharing your thoughts sir :yh_smiley


How do you differentiate "strike both man and women who did it on their feet" from "cutting noses and ears"? They're both forms of physical violence and the former serves as precedent for the eventual response of "cutting noses and ears". It's inevitable because the logic is screwed to begin with. Physical violence as punishment after the crime has taken place has been and always will be retribution. Retribution does nothing but creates blood. "You" don't kill to end killing, it's stupid

Pornography very definitively creates a sense of false purpose in my mind. Physical attraction begins with appreciating who the other person is and thus lust in my mind is very very primitive.

I can see how inappropriate it would be to allow everyone to walk around naked because of children and the parents' inability to inform them that skin is perfectly natural. I also know that we've lived thousands and thousands of years most of which was done so with at least some form of clothing so it's not as if reverting back to nudity as a means of casual lifestyle preferences would last very long at all.

Posted by mas

I agree that wearing bikinis on the beach excites early perhaps, but then becomes quite boring..

well let me tell you something that is very important, the reason why westerners societies have problems with marriages and divorce related to a problem.. when your eyes get bored from seeing girls with bikinis, you'll be also bored when you have sex time with your wife and you may like a girl on that beach or where ever you see her then you'll cheat on your wife.. and that's called Brod sexual situation. that would effect adversely on families and people..

when i get married in the future, i just want to be turned on with my wife so we can have perfect sexually life




In many ways we used to be not that much different and there are many who would still have it that way. It's not actually that long ago that a married woman couldn't get credit without her husbands name on the credit agreement, it was almost impossible for a single woman to get a loan to start a business and it's till not particularly easy, used to be married women had to give up their jobs when they got married - try opening a bank account in your maiden name. If you recall we needed an sex discrimination act, but it's still common practice which is one reason why so many councils now face massive bills for underpaying female workers.

Men are to pay a high price for sexual equality - Times Online

The rise in divorce rates and single parents isn't due to a breakdown in society it's the simple fact that women can now be financially independent and support themselves without the opprobrium of society and women in abusive relationship aren't expected to put up with it don't have to put up with it. Think Cheryl Cole, nowadays no one would think any the worse of her for getting divorced, indeed most would think her an idiot if she doesn't. Except the odd religious group that would condemn her rather than him.

when someone is merchant who has very expensive diamond, that guy will not sell that diamond without legal and clear official papers from a court or business agreement.. look how this guy is very careful with that beautiful diamond..

well, we consider women in our religion "Islam" as a diamonds that cannot get involved in a relationship without vows wedding.. so everybody((friends, family and people)) share the happiness and the time when that expensive and gorgeous diamond (women) get married..




The difference is we don't see women as possessions that have to be controlled and then sold off women can choose who they have relationships with. They belong to no one except themselves. We extend them the same rights men have always taken for granted - the freedom to live their lives as they wish. We don't see them as precious jewels to be hidden away and just peered at in private, no offence but that sounds a bit perverted. I always think men that want to be able to control women are really saying they are frightened that given a choice no one would have them. Liberated women terrify a lot of men with low self esteem, much better to keep them in a box and convince your self it's for their own good. Seems to me you don't want to give your women any choice in the matter and they don't actually have any - they can't get away, get a job on their own, be financially independent. What would you say to a woman that wanted her own career and financial independence?

when i get married in the future, i just want to be turned on with my wife so we can have perfect sexually life


Will your future wife be able to make that choice for herself or will she have to marry who she is told?

Incidentally I have been married for twenty five years to the same woman. I'm still not bored seeing women in bikinis.

Lon;1327053 wrote: Mas---How could you possibly introduce the question "How Do They Think Of Each Other" without religion and cultural differences being brought into the discussion? It was your post. As I am a non believer I am not constrained in any of my thinking by any religious beliefs or dogma. I respect and tolerate all beliefs and am happy that my non belief allows me to be physically safe here in the west. Not sure this would be the case if I lived in the Middle East and my non belief were a known. Stay with us Mas and participate in discussions, it's beneficial to all. Don't get upset with very pointed questions and comments.


why would i get upset? i'm not upset :guitarist

i did not say "don't comment or share thoughts" i meant that we reached a point where our rules should be quoted by me.. and you don't like it..



What would you say to a woman that wanted her own career and financial independence?


well, she has her right to live free and has her own career and financial independence.. my aunt is a teacher and she is not married, she has a house and no one is forcing her to get married or something..



Will your future wife be able to make that choice for herself or will she have to marry who she is told?


honestly, she will be able to make her own decisions.. :rolleyes:

Im excited you are here and I appreciate this opportunity for open dialogue regarding our cultures. This is exactly the kind of thing we should all be talking about. It is the only way to come to a position od tolerance.

First, Im thinking the most effective way to overcome sterotyping is by actually visiting a different land and experiencing how others do really live. I suspect that would quell many of the myths and imaginary perceptions. The cartoon of the Arab with many veiled women and a camel is satire as is the slob drinking beer. (Well...we do have slobs that drink beer) These cartoons should be seen as such and I think its fine and well to laugh at ourselves.

I must admit I dont understand the outrage the Arab world purveys when a Westerner depicts even your most sacred images in satire. Ignorance should be ignored. Its a weakness, but by the same token the rights of our citizens to freely express themselves is held in the highest estimation. We are free to excel, blunder, succeed, fail.....the flow of ideas are critical to the evolution of our species.

Bad things happen when we try to quit the human voice and spirit.

Im so glad youre here and welcome.

Nomad;1327180 wrote: Im excited you are here and I appreciate this opportunity for open dialogue regarding our cultures. This is exactly the kind of thing we should all be talking about. It is the only way to come to a position od tolerance.

First, Im thinking the most effective way to overcome sterotyping is by actually visiting a different land and experiencing how others do really live. I suspect that would quell many of the myths and imaginary perceptions. The cartoon of the Arab with many veiled women and a camel is satire as is the slob drinking beer. (Well...we do have slobs that drink beer) These cartoons should be seen as such and I think its fine and well to laugh at ourselves.

I must admit I dont understand the outrage the Arab world purveys when a Westerner depicts even your most sacred images in satire. Ignorance should be ignored. Its a weakness, but by the same token the rights of our citizens to freely express themselves is held in the highest estimation. We are free to excel, blunder, succeed, fail.....the flow of ideas are critical to the evolution of our species.

Bad things happen when we try to quit the human voice and spirit.

Im so glad youre here and welcome.


thanks Nomad and I really appreciate your words

We do tend to think of Islam as being one thing everywhere, at least I do; it isn't. Any more than Western culture is. But we do tend to see cases in the newspapers of girls brought up in England being taken back to the home country and forced to marry to suit her father's business or family obligations. "Girl forced to marry against her will" sells newspapers. "Girl makes happy marriage" doesn't sell newspapers. Sounds like MAS is from a comparatively liberal area and a decent family.

Got to ask gmc: Would it be worth Sharia Law to have kept Maggie out of power? (And would Sharia Law have barred her from being Prime Minister? Either directly or by imposing restrictions that would make it impossible for her to hold the post?)

chuckle. Not expecting an answer. Just commenting. There's an awful lot on this thread for one poor lad to get through.

Clodhopper;1327592 wrote: We do tend to think of Islam as being one thing everywhere, at least I do; it isn't. Any more than Western culture is. .


Of course Islam is one thing every-where. It Is a religion exactly the same as Christianity Is one thing every-where. Where-as Western culture Is another matter entirley. Western Culture Is that... a culture, not a religion and the 2 can not be viewed together. Western culture varies from country to country. What we do In England Is not the same as done In Spain or America but In the main, religion Is spread In the same doctrine through-out the world by those who preach It.

As Christianity Is the teachings of Jesus Christ, Islam Is the teachings of Allah.

And... before you critise what I have just said, I happen to be writing this with my Muslim pal sat on my sofa drinking coffee.

Clodhopper;1327592 wrote: We do tend to think of Islam as being one thing everywhere, at least I do; it isn't. Any more than Western culture is. But we do tend to see cases in the newspapers of girls brought up in England being taken back to the home country and forced to marry to suit her father's business or family obligations. "Girl forced to marry against her will" sells newspapers. "Girl makes happy marriage" doesn't sell newspapers. Sounds like MAS is from a comparatively liberal area and a decent family.

Got to ask gmc: Would it be worth Sharia Law to have kept Maggie out of power? (And would Sharia Law have barred her from being Prime Minister? Either directly or by imposing restrictions that would make it impossible for her to hold the post?)

chuckle. Not expecting an answer. Just commenting. There's an awful lot on this thread for one poor lad to get through.


umm I don't really live in a liberal area but these stories of girls forced to get married are from the north of Saudi Arabia where a lot of people are severe "thank God i'm not from there:rolleyes:", that region is called "Qasseem", I feel very sorry for all girls who forced to get married or treated in bad way..

to be honest with you, as in Christian, Islam has more than one doctrine, my doctrine is Mild.

posted by clodhopper

Got to ask gmc: Would it be worth Sharia Law to have kept Maggie out of power? (And would Sharia Law have barred her from being Prime Minister? Either directly or by imposing restrictions that would make it impossible for her to hold the post?)

chuckle. Not expecting an answer. Just commenting. There's an awful lot on this thread for one poor lad to get through.


No it wouldn't. I would be appalled if we ever accepted any religious law as being superior to civil law. Mind you if we had a law banning idiots from standing for office there would be no MP's.

oscar;1327596 wrote: Of course Islam is one thing every-where. It Is a religion exactly the same as Christianity Is one thing every-where. Where-as Western culture Is another matter entirley. Western Culture Is that... a culture, not a religion and the 2 can not be viewed together. Western culture varies from country to country. What we do In England Is not the same as done In Spain or America but In the main, religion Is spread In the same doctrine through-out the world by those who preach It.

As Christianity Is the teachings of Jesus Christ, Islam Is the teachings of Allah.

And... before you critise what I have just said, I happen to be writing this with my Muslim pal sat on my sofa drinking coffee.


So a high Catholic is the same as a Calvinist is the same as a Southern Baptist?

The Bible might be a common denominator but the interpretation of the Bible is totally different and that produces a different religious outlook.

Neither Christianity nor Islam is one thing everywhere - not by a country mile.

Bryn Mawr;1327717 wrote: So a high Catholic is the same as a Calvinist is the same as a Southern Baptist?

The Bible might be a common denominator but the interpretation of the Bible is totally different and that produces a different religious outlook.

Neither Christianity nor Islam is one thing everywhere - not by a country mile. Snake handling or serpent handling is a religious ritual in a small number of Pentecostal churches in the U.S., usually characterized as rural and Holiness. The practice began in the early 20th century in Appalachia, spreading to mostly coal mining towns. The practice plays only a small part of the church service of churches that practice snake handling. Practitioners believe serpent handling dates to antiquity and quote the Book of Mark and the Book of Luke to support the practice:

And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17-18)

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. (Luke 10:19)Snake handling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Would it matter at all if I said I didn't trust these people anymore than I trust anyone else that feel the need to site any religious passage? :wah:

No it wouldn't. I would be appalled if we ever accepted any religious law as being superior to civil law. Mind you if we had a law banning idiots from standing for office there would be no MP's.


Sorry. I know. I just couldn't resist pressing the button.

btw I am in complete agreement with your major post on this thread. You and snowfire have made the points I wanted to make better than I was able to.

umm I don't really live in a liberal area but these stories of girls forced to get married are from the north of Saudi Arabia where a lot of people are severe "thank God i'm not from there", that region is called "Qasseem", I feel very sorry for all girls who forced to get married or treated in bad way..

to be honest with you, as in Christian, Islam has more than one doctrine, my doctrine is Mild.


Dear MAS. Your honesty is appreciated. My doctrine is also Mild. We talk across a very big cultural divide, and confusion will happen. But I have felt a friendly spirit from Saudi Arabia and hope you have felt the same from Britain.

A problem here is that elements of what are apparently Islamic (Sharia?) law cut across English Law about the rights of the individual. These people are acting entirely correctly according to the customs and even sometimes laws of the place they come from; but entirely illegally and morally wrongly from the point of view of this country.

At the same time, I must acknowlege that western society is not perfect. As a liberal, I believe that discusssion is the best approach to difference. Hope you hang around long enough for that to happen. At present you are the only known muslim posting here, and that is a difficult place to be. Best of luck!:-6