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I read crap like this and am just grateful for where I live. The article points out that the villagers are all in favor of the hanging.... really? Or are they afraid to voice what their actual thoughts are for fear they'd join her.



Family waits to see if mother, accused of blasphemy, will be hanged - CNN.com

Whooo..!! stunned and sad for those 2 beautiful young girls.

flopstock;1344243 wrote: Or are they afraid to voice what their actual thoughts are for fear they'd join her.Why is it you're so incapable of accepting that different cultures genuinely want different lifestyles? That McDonald's and Starbucks are local phenomena, that criminality is a reflection of society, that how foreign cultures organize themselves is an internal matter and that when it comes to a moral veto, the USA is that last country on earth to be entrusted with such an option.

CARLA;1344261 wrote: Whooo..!! stunned and sad for those 2 beautiful young girls.I'm wondering why we haven't heard more on this from the christians out there. Although now that it's hit the headlines, we should be seeing jessie jackson and crew stepping up as champions any day now.

yes, its sad and terrible and evidence that people haven't worked **** out yet. I just feel really uncomfortable every time these threads come up because they have just as much cause to find news stories from our countries that are outrageous, pitiful and immoral.

koan;1344283 wrote: yes, its sad and terrible and evidence that people haven't worked **** out yet. I just feel really uncomfortable every time these threads come up because they have just as much cause to find news stories from our countries that are outrageous, pitiful and immoral.


And these are the same type of things that get said every time a thread about the muslim religion pops up -rather then addressing the story that is being reported. I don't notice it so much when catholic stories or baptists stories get posted. Everyone is happy to pile on those folks.

I no more went looking for this story than I did the story on the family in conn that was tortured overnight, the mother driven to the bank in the morning for funds and than returned home to be raped along with her 11 year old before being killed and the children set on fire.

I don't have a religious bone to grind. I am firmly in the camp of 'none of the above'. The stories I post are stories that are trending on google or yahoo or aol when I flit through them throughout my day. That indicates they may be of interest in a conversation here, so I drop them in. It's just that sinister.

Also, those of you who are so sensitive to users posting stories and comments that could be considered negative about others cultures and countries need to realize that it swings both ways. YOU are not allowed to be critical of my country in any way shape or form from now on. No negative stories, etc.. - only post negatives about your own country or religion.

That's fair and balanced... stifling, but fair and balanced.

Thats a good argument, flopstock.

Religion, any religion is the cause of so many crazy events. Nonbelievers don't do stupid stuff like this, though they'd be hanged quite often all over the world if religious zealots could find a way to get away with it.

The lady should not be hanged for this, but boy, you'd think she'd know to keep her mouth shut. With the entire village unanimous about the punishment causes me to think that she may have a habit of vocalizing her opposition to Islam often.

spot;1344265 wrote: Why is it you're so incapable of accepting that different cultures genuinely want different lifestyles? That McDonald's and Starbucks are local phenomena, that criminality is a reflection of society, that how foreign cultures organize themselves is an internal matter and that when it comes to a moral veto, the USA is that last country on earth to be entrusted with such an option.


So you champion the rights of a Muslim country to hang a woman for blasphemy but constantly degrade the U.S. for having states with the death penalty for especially heinous murders? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.

Ahso!;1344308 wrote: Thats a good argument, flopstock.

Religion, any religion is the cause of so many crazy events. Nonbelievers don't do stupid stuff like this, though they'd be hanged quite often all over the world if religious zealots could find a way to get away with it.

The lady should not be hanged for this, but boy, you'd think she'd know to keep her mouth shut. With the entire village unanimous about the punishment causes me to think that she may have a habit of vocalizing her opposition to Islam often.


Don't even know what kind of evidence was offered up. Do you suppose they have transcripts available? For all I know they can convict on the word of the cleric.

I don't believe for a moment that it is unanimous. I would think the dissenters were smart enough not to be asked.

It seems things aren't as bad as it sounded. Perhaps because of the media attention, perhaps not.

Punjab Governor Salmaan Taseer told AsiaNews that Asia Bibi’s death penalty sentence is “a disgraceful episode. It is an embarrassment for Pakistan.”... “These laws are used to victimise Christians and other groups. They are a foul leftover from the military regime of General Zia-ul-Haq,” Taseer explained.

In an attempt to be reassuring, the governor insisted that the sentence would not be carried out since the appeal court still has to decide whether or not to uphold the sentence.
source

I tend to focus more on criticism of my own government and the US because Canada and the US are politically linked in some aspects. Regretfully, Canada is like the "mini me" of the States. I somewhat pay attention to the UK news because I have friends there and because it is my ancestral country... And I enjoy making fun of the royal family. In a broader sense of global criticism and concern, I think people are more justified in taking a judgmental stance in affairs of countries that claim to be "leaders of the free world." Pakistan is not one of those.

YZGI;1344332 wrote: So you champion the rights of a Muslim country to hang a woman for blasphemy but constantly degrade the U.S. for having states with the death penalty for especially heinous murders? Sounds a bit hypocritical to me.
Actually, no, I don't, though I've discussed the pros and cons of the death penalty in previous threads. If the US wants to kill its convicts then that's an internal matter for the USA.

I'm occasionally outraged by the utter lack of humanity expressed by some of the posters on FG with regard to US convicts but that lack is one consequence of a system which locks up such a large proportion of its underclass. The indoctrinated voters look on and feel able to say "I'm just grateful for where I live", and bother themselves about the sexual politics of Pakistan as a distraction from the stresses in US society.

The dismissive attitude of Americans toward penal statistics, under the cover of "don't do the crime", is just shameful, and the US death penalty is a minor matter by comparison.

koan;1344370 wrote: It seems things aren't as bad as it sounded. Perhaps because of the media attention, perhaps not.

source

I tend to focus more on criticism of my own government and the US because Canada and the US are politically linked in some aspects. Regretfully, Canada is like the "mini me" of the States. I somewhat pay attention to the UK news because I have friends there and because it is my ancestral country... And I enjoy making fun of the royal family. In a broader sense of global criticism and concern, I think people are more justified in taking a judgmental stance in affairs of countries that claim to be "leaders of the free world." Pakistan is not one of those.


There was a statement that hanging had never actually occurred, but I couldn't tell if it was a historical fact or just a politician throwing stuff out there.

But I do disagree about having and voicing opinions about events based on a countries size or stature in the world arena. IMO, conversation is what I come here for. Reading thoughts and opinions of others on matters that have captured my attention. Sharing my thoughts with them.

The thing is, you seemed to think the common people would be afraid to speak out against the government when in fact it appears the courts/local government were trying to appease the wishes of the people to hang her and the government is saying they know it is disgraceful. The problem with judging countries that have a much different culture is that we don't really know what the people there like or want unless we've spent time there. I feel comfortable guessing what the citizens of Canada, the US and the UK want as I know the culture and expectations of the community the governments are supposed to represent.

I think it's important to read the news and the world news is an important venue for people to appeal to the world for help. It is absolutely essential to have media coverage for non violent protest to succeed... yet there is a danger in making assumptions unless you read all sides of the situation thoroughly. I refused to have an opinion on Israel and Palestine until I'd spent months reading everything I could find on the history, the specific trigger incidents and the ongoing coverage. So I feel confident in arguing my point of view regarding those countries. I only know the names of about 20 countries (on a good day) and that's not even half of the countries that exist. So, if I read news about Angola my first thought is "where the heck is that?" and I'll probably keep thinking they make nice soft sweaters there unless I research it.

There are women who stretch their necks with gold bands and it makes them feel beautiful. Who am I to judge? I wear black nail polish and they probably wonder why I want to look like I'm dead. We wonder why some people die for stealing and they probably wonder why we die of obesity.

Seriously koan, feel free to move there and live.

I'm glad I don't. And I feel zero guilt for being glad I don't.

I don't wish to live in another country right now but that's not the point. The point is that governments, according to our own standards, should represent the will of the majority of their people. If you don't agree with the majority of the country you either live under their rules or you leave.

koan;1344512 wrote: If you don't agree with the majority of the country you either live under their rules or you leave.Or, to be fair, you change the rules through activism. But not from outside as a stranger, only the citizens can do it. What it takes is citizens who want change. Perhaps the Internet will tend to alter the opinion of citizens worldwide.

Looking into these cultures is a lot like looking in the mirror, through a time machine, maybe a couple hundred years. This is what most our cultures looked like in the past, I would think. Modern observers can see these people are a bit barbaric, but they are probably more level-headed and cultured than the people who wrote the sacred texts. Certainly no one would seriously look to this group for educated opinions regarding stem cell research, climate change, or anything of importance. Though the U.S. blindly follows the same group in much of their political discourse, referring to their barbaric ideas that are thousands of years old.

The difference in outlook works both ways across time too. Americans of a couple of hundred years ago, if shown how their descendants are currently living and what they're entertained by and their general moral tone, would react with utter disgust. Villagers in Pakistan regard Western morality in much the same light. The only genuine error is in thinking that now, here, is in some absolute sense better than then there. It may be different but it's not unadulterated improvement. The utter complaisant smugness inherent in "I'm just grateful for where I live" is no different whether it's said in the US 2010, in Pakistan 2010 or anywhere you care to name in, say, 1810 - it's a head-in-the-sand abdication of the need for home improvement.

That's true. Also, the U.S. hasn't really escaped barbarism, it's only pushed it into higher level abstractions. We don't outright hang someone for saying the wrong thing, but we will deny millions of people necessary resources for life ... for saying nothing in particular.

spot;1344534 wrote: Or, to be fair, you change the rules through activism. But not from outside as a stranger, only the citizens can do it. What it takes is citizens who want change. Perhaps the Internet will tend to alter the opinion of citizens worldwide.


True enough, but the activism has to have enough people to form a group. I had a smaller than group size picture of the oppression in the story. If I was in an oppressed minority and didn't want to leave the country I'd migrate to an area that had enough of my own kind that we could be a group.

koan;1344702 wrote: True enough, but the activism has to have enough people to form a group. I had a smaller than group size picture of the oppression in the story. If I was in an oppressed minority and didn't want to leave the country I'd migrate to an area that had enough of my own kind that we could be a group.
There's plenty of precedent. It encapsulates the history of San Francisco, for example.

Official: Pakistani Christian woman falsely accused of blasphemy - CNN.com

What does that article carry as a message, in your opinion? Pro-active humanitarian central Pakistani government? All's well with Pakistani law? Oh look she's still alive, fancy that?

Or are we still going on about if she was living in America she'd not be jailed for what she was accused of, so obviously America's better than Pakistan? Because if that's what it is, there's plenty of people suffering in American jails for acts which are just as arbitrarily criminalised as hers.

spot;1344722 wrote: What does that article carry as a message, in your opinion? Pro-active humanitarian central Pakistani government? All's well with Pakistani law? Oh look she's still alive, fancy that?

Or are we still going on about if she was living in America she'd not be jailed for what she was accused of, so obviously America's better than Pakistan? Because if that's what it is, there's plenty of people suffering in American jails for acts which are just as arbitrarily criminalised as hers.


I knew this would end up being Americas fault.:rolleyes:

YZGI;1344812 wrote: I knew this would end up being Americas fault.:rolleyes:


And America has no blame in this? Pakistan has been an American client state since it split from India after independence. And the U.S. under Reagan, funded these Islamic revolutionary groups when they were useful for fighting the Soviet Union. They just never planned ahead for the contingency of what would happen after the Soviet's left!

These stories about Christians, Hindus, and Sufi and Shia Muslims being attacked in Pakistan obscure the fact that this place tolerated minorities in the past and then turned rigidly theocratic and intolerant of all minorities. So what changed? I'm no expert on this part of the world, but these naked attempts to just blame it on their religion don't inform me as to why they were tolerant and relatively secular in the past. What caused all these changes, and what part of the blame falls on the CIA and all of the billions pumped into the Pakistani military.

recovering conservative;1344821 wrote: And America has no blame in this? Pakistan has been an American client state since it split from India after independence. And the U.S. under Reagan, funded these Islamic revolutionary groups when they were useful for fighting the Soviet Union. They just never planned ahead for the contingency of what would happen after the Soviet's left!

These stories about Christians, Hindus, and Sufi and Shia Muslims being attacked in Pakistan obscure the fact that this place tolerated minorities in the past and then turned rigidly theocratic and intolerant of all minorities. So what changed? I'm no expert on this part of the world, but these naked attempts to just blame it on their religion don't inform me as to why they were tolerant and relatively secular in the past. What caused all these changes, and what part of the blame falls on the CIA and all of the billions pumped into the Pakistani military.


Ummm... did you read the stories? the law has been on the books forever. The government person said that hanging for this offense has never been carried out. Also says that the government investigated and it appears to be women trying for revenge against a woman they don't like.

Man, talk about PMS

YZGI;1344812 wrote: I knew this would end up being Americas fault.:rolleyes:


Everything is dear

flopstock;1344827 wrote: Everything is dear


That was my point.

YZGI;1344812 wrote: I knew this would end up being Americas fault.:rolleyes:


The Pakistani judicial system doesn't annoy me, mainly because Pakistan's citizens don't smugly hold it up as an example of excellence to the world and then send their armed forces to other continents in a misguided lethal attempt to implant it elsewhere.

flopstock;1344823 wrote: Ummm... did you read the stories? the law has been on the books forever. The government person said that hanging for this offense has never been carried out. Also says that the government investigated and it appears to be women trying for revenge against a woman they don't like.




... and they would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids! :wah:

flopstock;1344823 wrote: Ummm... did you read the stories? the law has been on the books forever. The government person said that hanging for this offense has never been carried out. Also says that the government investigated and it appears to be women trying for revenge against a woman they don't like.

Man, talk about PMS


Not exactly forever, since Pakistan has only been a nation since 1948, after the breakup of newly independent India. I'm not so much interested in what the laws are now in Pakistan, as why the clerics went from being viewed as backward and outdated 30 to 40 years ago, and are now driving the political and social agenda. My feelings on these sorts of horror stories from the Muslim World are shaped by the way they are disingenuously used by conservatives and/or warhawks to justify the belief in Western superiority. We are motivated to feel outrage, but what good does our outrage do as long as the U.S. continues supporting the Pakistan Government and funding their armed forces? Maybe we are supposed to express a Moment of Hate for our enemy, like in George Orwell's 1984.

The story looks somewhat similar to Time Magazine's cover photo of an Afghan teenage girl who had her nose cut off for fleeing an arranged marriage. The caption stated that this was why we need to keep the war going in Afghanistan, without explaining why the Occupation was unable to prevent such abuses.