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John 8:58(AMP) - I(Jesus) assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am.

If Jesus existed before Abraham was born, does that mean he was there, in the beginning with God? And was Jesus part of God, in the Godhead?

John 3:3(AMP) - I(Jesus) assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again, he(she) cannot ever see the kingdom of God.

Jesus, the Savior said, everyone must be born again from spiritual death to spiritual life, in order to enter the kingdom of God. And if the law could save anyone, why did Jesus have to come? The law was given, before Jesus came? Why would Jesus come to do, what the law was already doing?

John 3:7(AMP) - You must all be born anew.

If Jesus says, we all must be born again, should we all be born again? Why would Jesus command us, to do something we didn't need?

John 1:12(NKJV) - But as many as received him, to them he(Jesus) gave, the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name.

If we have to become children of God by receiving or accepting Jesus as Lord and savior, does that means no one is automatically born a child of God? Can you become, what you already are?

John 8:44(NKJV) - You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father, you want to do.

If everyone, is automatically born a child of God, why did Jesus describe his audience as the Devil's children? Didn't Jesus know, that everyone was supposed to be a child of God?

Matthew 4:23(AMP) - And he(Jesus) went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

If sickness and disease were God's will, why would Jesus, the son of God, interfere with the will of God, his father? And if the good news of the kingdom was about sickness and disease, how could it be the God news? And if people, who weren't christians, under the Old Covenant, which wasn't as good as the New Covenant could be healed, why shouldn't Christians under the better covenant? If the good news, that Jesus preached hurt people instead of helping them, would it still be the good news?

Matthew 4:24(NIV) - News about him spread throughout all Syria, and they brought to him, all who were ill, with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.

Why was healing a major part of the ministry of Jesus? Was Jesus setting an example to his followers? And if sickness was from God, was Jesus acting against God by healing every single sickness and disease? How could God, through Jesus heal people, under a lesser covenant and deny healing to those under a better covenant? Was the good news of healing, just for the people under the Old Covenant?

Acts 10:38(AMP) - How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the holy spirit and power; how he went about doing good and curing all, who were harassed and oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

In the scripture above, Peter tells us that sickness and disease is harassment and oppression from the devil. Why didn't Peter say, that sickness and disease comes from God? Should we trust Peter, who was there with Jesus? And if anyone should have known about sickness and it's origin, should Peter have known? Peter ministered and travelled with Jesus. If sickness and disease came from God, could Jesus, the son of God, tells that he brought good news for us?

Luke 13:16(AMP) - And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan had kept bound(sick), for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond(sickness) on the sabbath day?

Did Jesus say, that Satan and not God, had put sickness on this woman for eighteen years? Why didn't Jesus accuse God of this terrible crime? Under the covenant, which God made with Abraham and his descendants, this woman as a descendant of Abraham had a right to be healed. And why did she suffer for eighteen years? She was ignorant of her covenant, until Jesus came a long! How many christians are ignorant of their rights in the New Covenant, like this woman was ignorant of hers under the Old Covenant? Was the healing of the woman good news or bad news?

Matthew 15:31(AMP) - The crowd was amazed, when they saw the dumb speaking, the maimed made whole, the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they recognized and glorified the God of Israel.

If God was glorified for healing, could God be glorified for the sickness and disease also? Could God put sickeness and disease on people, so that they could praise him for healing them?

Matthew 8:17(NIV) - He(Jesus) took our infirmities and carried our diseases.

Notice, that the words 'took' and 'carried' are past tense. When Jesus hang on the cross he legally and symbolically, destroyed the power of sickness and disease over

mankind. This opened the door for christians under the New Covenant to be healed, just as had been the case under the Old Covenant. So, if Jesus took and carried our sickness and diseases, do we still have to carry them? Why would Jesus carry them for us, if we have to carry them also?

Matthew 9:22(NIV) - Jesus turned and saw her. 'Take heart daughter', he said, 'your faith has healed you'. And the woman was healed.

Jesus said, the woman was healed by her faith in the healing word and not by Jesus or God or angels. Did the woman have a part to play in her healing? Would the woman have been healed, if she didn't have faith?

Matthew 9:29-30(NKJV) - Then he(Jesus) touched their eyes, saying, 'according to your faith let it be done to you'. And their eyes were open.

Notice, that these blind men were healed according to their faith in the healing gospel and not according to the faith of Jesus or God. What if the blind men did not have faith?

And notice, that everyone that Jesus healed lived under the Old Covenant, which wasn't as good as the New Covenant.

Matthew 8:8 & 13(AMP) - ...but only speak the healing word, and my servant boy will be cured.

Then to the centurion Jesus said, 'go, it shall be done for you as you have believed. And the servant boy was restored to health at that very moment.

Jesus declared, that what the centurion believed would be done. The healing wasn't up to Jesus or God, but the centurion. If the centurion didn't believe, even though it was the will of God to heal, would healing have taken place?

Mark 5:34(NIV) - He(Jesus) said to her, 'daughter your faith has healed you'. Go in peace....

Why didn't Jesus or God take credit for the healing? Why didn't Jesus claim, that it was his faith or God's faith, that healed the woman? How can the New Covenant be better than the Old Covenant, if christians under the new and improved covenant wont be healed?

Hebrews 13:8(NIV) - Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever.

If Jesus is really the same yesterday, today and forever, then he must heal today and forever or he wont be the same yesterday, today and forever.

John 14:12(AMP) - I(Jesus) assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if anyone believes in me, he(she) will himself(herself) be able to do the things, that I do.

If Jesus declared, that those who believe in him, will do what he did, why aren't those who claim to believe in him doing what he did, like healing the sick? Was Jesus just joking or telling the truth? And do those who say God doesn't heal anymore know better than Jesus?

Mark 16:18(AMP) - They(believers) will lay hands on the sick and they will get well.

Here again, Jesus announced, some of what those who believe in him, present and future will be doing? Did Jesus announce an expiration date for healing? And can a better covenant lack healing?

Matthew 4:4(AMP) - But he(Jesus) replied, 'It has been written, man shall not live and be sustained by bread alone, but by every word, that comes forth from the mouth of God.

When the devil tempted Jesus, to turn stones into bread, Jesus boldly counter-attacked by quoting Deuteronomy 8:3, in the Old Testament. Was Jesus setting an example, as to how, to deal with temptation or other challenging situations in life? And he fought back, with what is written. But how can you fight, with what is written, if you don't know what is written?

Matthew 4:7(AMP) - Jesus said to him, 'It is written also, you shall not tempt, test or try the Lord your God'.

Again, Jesus responded, by quoting Deuteronomy 6:16, in the Old Testament, when the Devil dared him to jump from the top of the highest temple, since the angels were supposed to catch him. If Jesus Knew, what was written for every situation, should we also know, what is written regarding our situations or circumstances?

Matthew 4:10(AMP) - Then Jesus said to him, 'be gone Satan! For it has been written, you shall worship the Lord your God, and him alone you shall serve'.



For the third time, Jesus fired back, by quoting Deuteronomy 6:13, in the Old Testament, when the devil offered him, all the kingdoms of the world, if he just bowed to the Devil. If Jesus triumphed over the Devil, by boldly proclaiming, what is written, should we also boldly speak, what is written over our situations and circumstances? And again, how can we speak, what is written, if we don't know what is written?

Matthew 8:26(NIV) - He(Jesus) replied, 'you of little faith, why are you so afraid?' Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

If Jesus changed a storm situation to a calm situation by speaking words, in faith, can we transform the storms in our lives by speaking the right scriptures in faith? Jesus said, the disciples had little faith, but if they had more faith, they could have dealt with the storm themselves. Would the good news, still be the good news, if it couldn't change our situations or circumstances?

Matthew 21:19(AMP) - And he(Jesus) said to it(fig tree), 'never again shall fruit grow on you! And the fig tree withered up at once.

By boldly speaking words, Jesus transformed the condition of the fig tree. Should we also boldly speak to our situations and circumstances? But once again, how do we know what to say, in a particular situation or circumstance, if we don't know, what is wrtten? And if Jesus Knew, what is written, should we also know, what is written?

Mark 11:23(NKJV) - For assuredly, I(Jesus) say to you, whoever says, to this mountain(situation), be removed and be cast into the sea, and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things, he says, will be done, he will have whatever he says.

Here, Jesus is telling believers, that they can change their situations or circumstances by speaking words or scriptures, if they believe, that what they say will happen. And if it wasn't possible, why would Jesus waste time telling believers about it? And so, should we wait on God, or is God waiting on us?

Matthew 18:18(AMP) - Truly, I(Jesus) tell you, whatever you forbid on earth, will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth, will be permitted in heaven.

If Jesus or God was going to forbid or permit the situations or circumstances in our lives, why would Jesus tell us, that it is our responsibility? And if we don't do, what Jesus told us to do, will Jesus or God do it for us?



Matthew 12:37(AMP) - For by your words, you will be justified and by your words, you will be condemned.

Jesus declared, that our words will either justify or set us free from situations or circumstances or our words will condemn or keep us in bondage to situations or circumstances. And does this mean, we can shape our destiny with words? So, should we speak negative words over our lives or positive words? Can speaking positive scriptures daily help us or harm us?

John 6:63(AMP) - The words or truths, that I(Jesus) have been speaking to you are spirit and life.

Since, Jesus spoke the word of God, does that mean the word of God is spirit and life also? And if we speak the scriptures to our lives are we releasing life into our situations or circumstances? And also, if the good news gave us death and not life, will it still be good news?

John 8:32(AMP) - And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

If Jesus said, the truth will set us free and our situations or circumstances never change, do we really know the truth? Is the truth supposed to help us or hurt us? Can the truth, really be the truth, if it never sets us free? And can the truth be good news, if it doesn't free us?

Matthew 6:33(NKJV) - But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Things are material posssesions and money. By seeking God will things be added to us or subtracted from us? Jesus says, as we seek God, blessings will also come upon us. And since, Jesus always sought God, were things added to his life? Could God bless, those who seek him minus Jesus?

Luke 18:29 - Assuredly I(Jesus) say to you, there is no one, who has left house, parents, brothers, wife or children for the sake of the kingdom, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.

Will God give, those who really seek him more or less? Did everyone, who sought God gain more, except Jesus? And if those who left family and properties for the kingdom's sake, ended up worse off than before, will that be good news? And also, does this apply to us today?

Luke 6:38(NKJV) - Give and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom.

According to Jesus, giving is like planting seed in the ground, the harvest is always more than the seed planted. And so did Jesus want us to have less or more? And did Jesus give away this recipe for increase, without using it himself?

John 10:10(AMP) - The thief(Satan) comes to steal, kill and destroy. I(Jesus) came, that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance, to the full, till it overflows.

Notice, from the mouth of Jesus, who is responsilbe for stealing, destroying and killing. And the opposite of Abundance is lack. Is living in lack forever, consistent with what Jesus came for? Is a life of abundance, against the will of God? And is living in lack good news?

Luke 11:28(NKJV) - But he(Jesus) said, blessed are those, who hear the word of God and keep it.

The opposite of blessed is cursed. If blessings would come, to those who keep the word, did this include Jesus? Could everyone who kept the word be blessed, except Jesus? And if you were cursed, for keeping the word, will that be good news?

John 6:38(AMP) - For I(Jesus) have come down from heaven not to do my own will and purpose, but to do the will and purpose of him(God), who sent me.

If Jesus came to do God's will, does that mean whatever Jesus did and said, was God's will? And did Jesus come, to show and tell us, God's will? Can we honestly claim not to know God's will? - Healing

Let us remember the birth of the Christ Child tonight.

santa;1348062 wrote: the Christ
The word 'christ' implies a saviour and lord. Those are saved who are not only forgiven, but also live in gratitude for their forgiveness. Jesus thus becomes lord by invitation rather than by compulsion. That lordship results in changed behaviour:

'Get rid of all bitterness, passion, and anger. No more shouting or insults, no more hateful feelings of any sort. Instead, be kind and tender-hearted to one another, and forgive one another, because God has forgiven you through Christ.' Eph 4:30-5:1

xyz;1348081 wrote: The word 'christ' implies a saviour and lord. Those are saved who are not only forgiven, but also live in gratitude for their forgiveness. Jesus thus becomes lord by invitation rather than by compulsion. That lordship results in changed behaviour:

'Get rid of all bitterness, passion, and anger. No more shouting or insults, no more hateful feelings of any sort. Instead, be kind and tender-hearted to one another, and forgive one another, because God has forgiven you through Christ.' Eph 4:30-5:1Time has proven that "because" to be pretty weak. It's not practical to "get rid of" emotions, feelings and behaviors that have evolved over billions of years and served the species well. While it may be true that some of them no longer serve our species as they should for survival and reproductive advantage in our current environment, they will have to dissipate or change on their own. In the mean time, I think our best bet is to acknowledge and manage these adaptations as best we can. But the first thing we must do is stop accepting fairy tales as realities, or adopting a philosophy that contradicts fact.

Now let me see didn't Jesus call the pharisees something like "vipers". It seems to me he is also accused of showing some anger in the temple precincts when he threw over the tables etc. I guess that wasn't an emotion just a puff of air perhaps. Then there were the Sundays, years of them, when I sat and listened to how everyone but the (that fundamentalist church and their ilk) were the only ones "saved" and all the rest were all doomed to help to say nothing of the scorn heaped on them. That involves far more than one church. There were and are dozens of them.

Shalom

Ted

Fairy tales are fairy tales, legends are legends and legends and parables are parables. These have all been used over the millenia by teachers to teach profoundly important truths. All the best teachers have used them and many others to get ideas across.

Shalom

Ted

An interesting question though: What does the word "saved" mean?

Shalom

Ted

Romans 10:9-10(AMP) - If you acknowledge and confess(speak) with your lips, that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe, that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

For with the heart a person believes and so is justified and with the mouth he confesses(speaks) and confirms his salvation.

To be saved, first you have to sincerely and verbally acknowledge, that you are spiritually dead and that devil was your spiritual father, as a result of Adam's high treason in the garden and in the name of Jesus Christ ask God to forgive you, for this, then you declare that the devil is no longer your spiritual father and that you now accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and that you believe God raised him from the spiritually dead to spiritual life. And also declare, that since Jesus Christ was born again from spiritual death to spiritual life, and you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, then you believe, that you too, have been reborn from spiritual death to spiritual life. AMEN

2 Corinthians 4:13(AMP) - I have believed, and therefore have I spoken. We too believe, and therefore we speak.

Salvation

It is truly amazing how this gentleman ignores most of what I say. Perhaps he has a reading problem? I ask for a definition and I get the fundamentalists' usual line. koan is correct write only. He is not here for a discussion but simply to proselytize; typical of the fundamentalist and it does a great disservice to the life and message of Jesus of Nazareth.

Shalom

Ted

I believe that if Jesus came back today he would be appalled at what we have made of him. He certainly would not be pleased at being highly misunderstood. The historical Jesus, pre-Easter Jesus is that man born into history, a Jewish peasant born to a low class family and of questionable parentage thus he was called a mamzer.

The post-Easter Jesus is what the people and the church made of this Jesus after his death. The names appended to him were very political in nature; all were names given to Caesar, Lord, Son of God, Savior etc. His messages and instructions and actions have been totally ignored and Jesus was in fact turned into Caesar. The beauty of his teachings and example have been disregarded. Yes his presence is still felt and has been by millions. To put it bluntly he was crucified because he was a sh_t disturber and a threat to the social order of the day. He came preaching the kingdom of God and showed us how to move towards that. He made a very good attempt to make the world a better place to live.

None of this is to make any comment about an "after life". That is an whole other issue.

Shalom

Ted

eword;1348039 wrote: ...

If Jesus existed before Abraham was born, does that mean he was there, in the beginning with God? And was Jesus part of God, in the Godhead?

[snip ad nauseum]


I object to the pretense of a question.

i cant take any one seriously who is over ten years old and still has an imaginary friend

Ted;1351371 wrote: I believe that if Jesus came back today he would be appalled at what we have made of him. He certainly would not be pleased at being highly misunderstood. The historical Jesus, pre-Easter Jesus
Those are saved who are not only forgiven, but also live in gratitude for their forgiveness- not just on special occasions provided by those who put Christians to death, but all the time.