I Have Switched My Beliefs On Hell Yet Again - I Believe It's Real

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:46 pm

Ok so I have switched my beliefs about Hell yet again. I do believe it's real, and don't know what ultimate purpose it serves, but I now have no doubt that it's real. So basically, I have chosen to improve upon myself even more because I NEVER want to go there.

I've been doing some studying lately both in scripture and otherwise and I am now convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is a Hell. And that it is similar to the "lake of fire" that the Bible speaks of.

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Some of you might have heard of this man's experience before:

23 Minutes In Hell Reference Edition - Video

Post by **spot** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:06 pm

TruthBringer;1355531 wrote: basically, I have chosen to improve upon myself even more because I NEVER want to go there.Why not, out of interest? You'd rather side with the Designer Of The Universe who schemes up such a system?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:18 pm

Here's another amazing video of a man's story from a series me and my Wife have been watching on tv: Video from the TV Show I Survived... Beyond and Back Watch it on The Biography Channel

http://www.biography.com/video.do?name= ... 8690872001

He also claims that he went to Hell, ironically, it's very close to the description that the other guy gave for his experience in Hell.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:23 pm

It gets deeper into it on the show. It gets pretty wicked. He talks about people screaming in the distance, he said he could feel eternity while he was there. He said he was chained on his ankles and his wrists, he said he knew he would never get out.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:24 pm

spot;1355532 wrote: Why not, out of interest? You'd rather side with the Designer Of The Universe who schemes up such a system?

It's not a scheme. People make their own bed and they lie in it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:58 pm

I believe there is a special, more evil, hell for people who try to save other people from going to hell so... if you're going to believe in it, just focus on saving yourself.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:30 pm

koan;1355542 wrote: I believe there is a special, more evil, hell for people who try to save other people from going to hell so... if you're going to believe in it, just focus on saving yourself.

The problem I have with your statement is that there is no logic behind what you are saying. If you can bring another person closer to God by being there for them, by helping them come to know Christ, by following your own preaching, by telling them about Evil, by helping them the best you can without getting sucked into their reality, than I see no problem with that. If they refuse to accept the many different teachings of Christ and still decide that Hell is the place for them, than there may indeed be nothing you can do for them. But not for lack of trying.

However, there are some people who I encounter in Life who I know better than to even bring up the subject of God with for they would only choose to disgrace it for their own selfish reasons.

I agree that your own salvation is what is most important first.

Matthew 15:14

"Leave them alone. They are blind guides of the blind. If one blind person leads another blind person, both will fall into a ditch."

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:18 pm

To Hell And Back:

(1): YouTube - To Hell And Back (part 1)

(2): YouTube - To Hell And Back (Part 2)

(3): YouTube - To Hell And Back (Part 3)

(4): YouTube - To Hell And Back (Part 4 A)

(5): YouTube - To Hell And Back (Part 4 B)

koan · Post by **koan** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:19 pm

the only lack of logic is that, if I believe that there's a hell for people who try to save other people from hell and I try to save you from it... well, that's a pretty big sacrifice that I'm not prepared to make so go at 'er.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:26 pm

koan;1355545 wrote: the only lack of logic is that, if I believe that there's a hell for people who try to save other people from hell and I try to save you from it... well, that's a pretty big sacrifice that I'm not prepared to make so go at 'er.

And where do you derive this belief from? Scripture? Or just your own conclusions?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:46 pm

By the way Koan, the purpose of this thread is to provide evidence towards the case that Hell is real. I am not sure that one Human Being can ever "save" another Human Being from going to Hell, but what I am sure about is that an individual can develop a relationship with Christ and therefore with God based upon what they have learned by themselves as well as what they have learned from others along the way.

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:51 am

Every minister of the cloth I'm familiar with would wince at your opening post, TB. That's the aberrant dysfunctional illusion which snake-oil fundamentalists abuse their congregations with. You're inside a trap. I think you stay in there because it makes you feel special and well-informed. What baffles me is that you also regard this terrorizing destructive imaginary God as worthy of your praise and worship. It's like watching a heroin addiction.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:56 am

spot;1355551 wrote: Every minister of the cloth I'm familiar with would wince at your opening post, TB. That's the aberrant dysfunctional illusion which snake-oil fundamentalists abuse their congregations with. You're inside a trap. I think you stay in there because it makes you feel special and well-informed. What baffles me is that you also regard this terrorizing destructive imaginary God as worthy of your praise and worship. It's like watching a heroin addiction.

Is this the same person who was trying to convince me not to "side" with the Creator of the Universe?

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:08 am

TruthBringer;1355552 wrote: Is this the same person who was trying to convince me not to "side" with the Creator of the Universe?

There is no "Creator of the Universe". I asked you how, if you really think this invented character exists, you can also regard him as worthy of your praise and worship instead of demonic. Based on what you think he does.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:52 am

spot;1355553 wrote: There is no "Creator of the Universe". I asked you how, if you really think this invented character exists, you can also regard him as worthy of your praise and worship instead of demonic. Based on what you think he does.

Well, I guess an Atheist will be an Atheist. Can we agree on that?

Post by **spot** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:29 am

TruthBringer;1355554 wrote: Well, I guess an Atheist will be an Atheist. Can we agree on that?

By definition, of course we can. That's how language works.

You equate God with this mythical invented "Creator of the Universe", I don't. You rely on belief, I rely on experience. Belief, it seems to me, is by definition entirely unfounded, it has no bedrock, it relies on circular argument, it's a waste of both time and breath. Why do it?

You regard me as an atheist simply because my concept of God doesn't happen to match yours? That doesn't strike you as arrogant and unwarrantable?

The delusional God you currently believe in, were he to exist, would be unworthy of respect. What possible reason do you have for worshiping such a detestable figment of your imagination?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:06 am

This (Life) is not a game.

We either get it right and prove ourselves worthy or we get it wrong and suffer the consequences. We will be given many opportunities to do both.

These people who claim that they had seen Hell were having the time of their lives up until that point. Smiling, laughing, spending, enjoying their families, and running the entire spectrum of self gratification. In the end, no matter how happy they were, how happy their children were, how happy they were in their relationships with their spouses and their friends, none of it mattered. They found themselves in the nightmarish environment that they had all feared in the back of their minds. Let this be a warning to everyone who thinks reality can be enjoyed through ignorance. And we've all suffered from ignorance at one time or another. Regardless of what our own ego's will allow ourselves to admit.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:12 am

What's one thing Life has taught us Spot? That just because we don't like the thought of something or don't want it to be real, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This Life has taught us all that lesson in one way or another. And indeed, it hurts to know the Truth sometimes. But we all accept it here as "that's just the way it is". Try to take the same mentality about the Afterlife if you can.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:29 am

2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Many people like that scripture simply because it shows an example of the expression of a Loving God towards His Children.

However, ask yourself this. What does it really mean for a Soul to perish?

How many times have many of us in our past squashed a bug simply because we didn't like the way it looked or because we knew we could? Because it made us feel powerful to do so?

It is debatable, but we are arguably and currently the most powerful Beings in our plane of existence. In our realm. However, ask yourself also. Could it be possible that we could if we are not careful eventually find ourselves in a situation or in another plane of existence where we are "the bugs" and something else is doing the squashing? Or worse? But possibly with even more contempt and disgust for us as in that place than we had ever had for any of the creatures (including each other) that we felt more worthy than in our own?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm

I am finding myself much more open today to the possibility of an individual hell for each individual who finds themselves there. Anyone care to elaborate?

A state of mind.......what do you think?

Preachers who fear brimstone may find themselves in brimstone if they consume their everyday thoughts with it.

Serial killers who enjoy killing people may find themselves in a hell with other like minded individuals who feel the same way. Nothing but serial killers going wild on each other.

Perverted people who like strange sexual acts and are addicted to them may find themselves amongst many others who enjoy doing the same and may find themselves in a particular hell as well.

The mind really does appear to be the builder.

I also think there is definitely a large number of people behind the scenes who may have figured this out long ago and who therefore are intent on steering Humanity's thoughts in a certain direction. If something out there does indeed hate us it would want us all to build our own mind prisons. Could be a fallen Angel. I wouldn't doubt it.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:09 pm

I'm also open to the possibility that we have similar abilities here with our minds to construct reality only in a much slower manner and possibly only collectively. Which would explain why there also appears to be people behind the scenes attempting to distort our realities on purpose. To keep us from building anything substantial for ourselves.

The only reason for that would be so that these people who have been studying all of this for a very very long time now could remain at the top of the pile (possibly due to a psychological disorder of having to feel in control while other people suffer) would be able to keep us from using our minds on our own and together but rather make sure that we are constantly focused on things that are presented to us rather than from us.

Spot, you want to take it from there?

Koan?

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:33 pm

TruthBringer;1355556 wrote: This (Life) is not a game.

We either get it right and prove ourselves worthy or we get it wrong and suffer the consequences. We will be given many opportunities to do both.

I'll match your accusation of illogic with my own pointed finger. If a person is consigned to hell how are they given more chances to redetermine? What kind of hell says "or this?" and then lets you start again. That's kind of like "bop it" saying "you suck! start again!"

If you haven't played bop it, you've missed out on a good opportunity to learn to live with the state of sucking.

A special kind of hell exists. It's in your mind. My beliefs might be considered to be of self creation but they are also based on observation. The worst hell a person can find themselves in is a state of self judgement. No one is harder on you than you. If there is a God, and I believe there is, it is a much more forgiving entity than I allow of myself.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:37 pm

Basically after studying many multiple after life experiences of individuals who died and were brought back to Life, I have discovered that not one of the Hellish experiences appear to be identical. All of the Hellish experiences appear to be entirely unique from one another even though they have been able to connect with the consciousness of other individuals/entities with like mindedness and have even claimed to have been next to them or seen them in Hell along with themselves.

The same appears to be the case for the more Heavenly experiences. Those with like minded intentions and desires and emotions and actions appear to have been able to connect with other like minded individuals in their after Life experiences even though their experiences appear to be entirely unique to the individual as well.

So what I am getting at is this.

Those with constant fearful intentions and emotions and desires appear to find themselves uniquely amongst only other individuals and entities who are like minded in their after Life experiences.

Those with constant controlling intentions and emotions and desires appear to be in a state of constant control throughout their lives and find themselves amongst nothing but like minded individuals/entities in their after Life experiences.

Those with constant perverted intentions and emotions appear to be in a constant state of perversion their entire lives and therefore find themselves amongst only other like minded individuals/entities in their after Life experiences.

Those with constant angry intentions and desires and emotions appear to be in a constant state of anger throughout their lives and so therefore find themselves amongst nothing other than like minded individuals/entities in their after Life experiences.

And so on...and so on......

Bringing more clarification to Edgar Cayce's famous statement that the Mind truly is the Builder for the Spirit. And the Spirit realm.

The only X factor in all of this appears to be the possibility that a person can sometime in their Life completely switch their train of thought and emotions to an entirely different vibration or process and therefore create an entirely different after Life experience for themselves. Although it would appear that an individual must do this before they die a physical Life on the Earth if they expect for it to have any effect on changing what they have already built for themselves.

Aside that, my personality will not allow me to adapt to the fire and brimstone Hell that is mentioned in the Bible as being a common place for all individuals who do not accept Christ into their lives and beg for forgiveness. Trust me, I've tried. It just doesn't work for me and my personality. I tried all yesterday to adapt to it but my God center would not allow me to do so. Therefore I know it is a false and unhealthy reality for me. Possibly because of what I have already built for myself after this Life. It appears that I felt as if a bull (fire and brimstone) was trying to push back a locomotive engine traveling at 300MPH. Could it be done? Possibly.....if I kept focusing on it for the rest of my life. I wouldn't do that though just because of the sheer stupidity of it.

By the way, if Lucifer does exist on this planet, and I believe He does, I would imagine He only exists here because He refused to remain in the reality He originally was aware of and for whatever reason chose the Earth as His new reality. His story is completely backwards it would appear from what would be the norm for an Angel in Heaven. Especially one with such a high rank as He is said to have had.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:39 pm

Right. So we agree. Hell is in your own mind. Otherwise the visions would be consistent.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:52 pm

koan;1355600 wrote: Right. So we agree. Hell is in your own mind. Otherwise the visions would be consistent.

I gotta tell you Koan. I can't see it any other way.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:16 am

So, if you believe hell is in your own mind and you become intent on saving other people from hell then you not only engage with your own hell but with the infinite possibilities of hell that exist in another person's imagination. Hence a more intense hell.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:24 am

TruthBringer;1355531 wrote: Ok so I have switched my beliefs about Hell yet again. I do believe it's real, and don't know what ultimate purpose it serves, but I now have no doubt that it's real. So basically, I have chosen to improve upon myself even more because I NEVER want to go there.

I've been doing some studying lately both in scripture and otherwise and I am now convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is a Hell. And that it is similar to the "lake of fire" that the Bible speaks of.

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Some of you might have heard of this man's experience before:

23 Minutes In Hell Reference Edition - Video

Out of curiosity do you believe in past lives i.e you have lived before.?

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:04 am

gmc;1355607 wrote: Out of curiosity do you believe in past lives i.e you have lived before.?

I do yes. For those Souls who still have growing to do.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:05 am

Hell is a lack of wisdom and not moving forward to progress. Hell is not a place.

Hell is the pain, anguish, hurt and anger that you have caused others or who suffered as a result of your actions/words to others. Hell is what you have created for yourself within your soul by turning your back on unconditional love, compassion and peace.

What people call hell is really a spiritual time-out condition in which souls reflect and work out the things that blocked them from the power of their own light. (Dr. PMH Atwater)

Concerning hell, heat is molecules in motion, while cold is their lack of motion. Likewise, love is a fast vibration of the soul, while hate is a slower vibration. Complete love would be God, while complete hate would be death, leaving the soul extinct. (Arthur Yensen)

Heaven and hell are spiritual states of being. They are not static states but are states in which there can be growth and progress toward ultimate wholeness of being. (Margaret Tweddell)

The difference between life on Earth and life in the spirit is that your spirit world corresponds to your inner nature. (Nora Spurgin)

As there are degrees of heaven or hell on Earth, so there are degrees of heaven or hell in the spiritual world. (Margaret Tweddell)

After death people gravitate into homogenous groups according to the rate of their soul's vibrations much like throwing a small pebble into a threshing machine. It goes into the box that fits its proper size and weight. After death, we are sorted by the high or low vibrations of our soul.Everyone goes where they fit in! High vibrations indicate love and spiritual development, while low vibrations indicate debasement and evil. All one has to do is to love so unselfishly that their soul-vibrations rise high enough to fit into heaven. (Arthur Yensen)

An extreme neglect of spiritual matters on Earth can result in an earthbound condition. This is the condition people often associate with ghosts. (Dr. Michael Newton)

The quality of life after death for a suicide is determined by their motive for killing themselves. Those who kill themselves in order to hurt someone, get revenge, or who kill themselves out of hatred for someone else, will haunt the living by being aware of every horrible consequence their suicide had on others. Those who, because of mental illness, confusion, or a terminal illness, take their own life, are allowed many opportunities from God to grow in love just as any other person would who had not committed suicide. (Dr. George Ritchie)

People who have an orientation of hate, for instance, find themselves unable to appreciate a realm of love and harmony. Therefore, they continue in their state of bitterness and are 'closed' to the glory which exists around them. (Margaret Tweddell)

The spiritual state of being you have on Earth is the spiritual state you take with you to the world beyond when you die. There is no sudden metamorphosis from an idle person into an active person, from a nonreligious person into a religious person, from a money-centered person into a God-centered person. This is not an automatic thing. (Margaret Tweddell)

Those who have stunted their spiritual growth through an undeveloped or misdirected lifestyle, have led a purely self-centered life or have hurt other people, their spiritual environment will reflect something of these realities. A self-centered life on Earth places one in an area of the spirit world with like-minded people who have yet to learn the value of unselfishness for the advancement of the soul. (Nora Spurgin)

Environments distant from God are said to be dark, cold and inhospitable. Indeed, they reflect the spirits of those dwelling there. (Nora Spurgin)

We create our own hell within us while we live on Earth. After death, we step into this hell. (Kevin Williams)

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:15 am

In the spirit world, everyone lives in the kind of a heaven or hell that they have prepared for themselves while on Earth. (Arthur Yensen)

People are in hell before they die. At death, we are gathered together with those who think as we do. (Angie Fenimore)

The general rule of thumb is this: hellish life, hellish afterlife - heavenly life, heavenly afterlife. Death will not change a hellish life into a heavenly afterlife, nor does it change a heavenly life into a hellish afterlife. (Dr. Melvin Morse)

Occasionally, the encounter with light is perceived as a reflection of the fires of hell.

Physical desires can be carried over into the afterlife but physical desires cannot be satisfied there. This can create a hellish condition for those who have them.

There is no condemnation in hell, only the outworking of our own misjudgments, mistakes, misalignments, or misappropriations. (Dr. PMH Atwater)

Those with too many negative thought patterns might flee the light of God after death because they are too ashamed or too afraid to have their inner thoughts and negative natures revealed to everyone. (Dr. George Ritchie)

I saw the reasons for all of my actions and understood why I did what I had done. There was a place for all of my positive and negative actions. There was no action that was necessarily wrong, but there were actions I took that did not enhance positive growth. (David Oakford)

In hell, we have the opportunity to either revel in our folly or come to grips with the reality of consequences -that every action has a reaction, what is inflicted on another can be returned in kind. This is not a punishment for our sins but a confrontation with any distortion of our sense of values and priorities. (Dr. PMH Atwater)

Just knowing the bad mistakes you made through your carelessness or your selfishness is a hell. You don't need a devil prodding you with a fork. (Margaret Tweddell)

God does not condemn anyone to hell and there is no eternal damnation. We have the ability to condemn ourselves to the hell we create within ourselves. (Kevin Williams)

The God of love suffers for those in darkness, ignorance and misery. (Nora Spurgin)

Many people believe that those who don't give verbal assent to Jesus are cast headlong into eternal fire to burn forever. It should be common sense to anyone that a God of love would never treat people this way. As Jesus said, even an evil father knows how to give good things to children. (Kevin Williams)

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:16 am

While Benedict was in hell, he called out to the light and the light opened up and formed a tunnel that insulated him from all that fear and pain. (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)

The way out of these hellish realms is to have a willingness to see the light and seek love for others and God. (Angie Fenimore)

To escape the darkness, you must cry out to God. Then the light will appear. (Rev. Howard Storm)

From what may anyone be saved? Only from themselves! That is, their individual hell. They dig it with their own desires. (Edgar Cayce)

The gates of hell are open. Those in hell will eventually join up, link hands, and walk out of hell together. (Mellen-Thomas Benedict)

We stay in hell for however long best serves our development. We do not leave until we have changed our attitudes and perceptions. (Dr. PMH Atwater)

Souls in the hellish realms do not have the same powers to progress and achieve joy that others with more light in the higher afterlife realms have. Their progress is limited - a result of divine justice. However, these souls can choose to grow if they wish. (RaNelle Wallace)

The living have auras of light surrounding their bodies. If the aura becomes distorted through alcohol or drugs, an earthbound soul can temporarily possess the body. (Dr. George Ritchie)

There are no permanent sinners. Even the saddest example of humanity can become the greatest. (Harry Hone)

Accept the greater power around you and let go of the Earth and its desires. (Margaret Tweddell)

Based on a soul's desire and willingness, those in hell are given an opportunity for an upward journey. (Nora Spurgin)

People on Earth are protected from earthbound discarnates and any harm they may try to do against us when they focus on the love within them. (Kevin Williams)

To appreciate heaven well it is good for a man to have some fifteen minutes of hell. (Will Carleton)

Snowfire · Post by **Snowfire** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:16 pm

TruthBringer;1355595 wrote:

The mind really does appear to be the builder.

Bingo! There you go. Some people always find what they think they're gonna find. They trawl through the lilies to find the nettle and never stop to smell the scent. Just complain about the sting

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 1:15 pm

TruthBringer;1355610 wrote: I do yes. For those Souls who still have growing to do.

In that case do you also believe in future lives? That you are going to live again and have lready done so. Scrub that I jhave decided it better to start a sperate thread.

But does such a belief not contradict your belief in hell? Rather suggests you get several chances at escaping your fate

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:20 pm

gmc;1355623 wrote: In that case do you also believe in future lives? That you are going to live again and have lready done so. Scrub that I jhave decided it better to start a sperate thread.

But does such a belief not contradict your belief in hell? Rather suggests you get several chances at escaping your fate

Nobody ever experiences an immediate rebirth back into the Earth in their After Life/Near Death experiences. You never hear of that. It's because I believe there is a temporary purification process for those of the more negative nature otherwise known as Hell or their version of Hell, and there is also the resting process and re-assimilation process for those of the more positive nature or otherwise known as Heaven or their version of their experience of it.

Then I would imagine after that if necessary for that particular Soul at some point or another would come the rebirth process and the recycling back into the Earth to grow. It appears that Earth is a key part in this entire process.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:59 am

TruthBringer;1355641 wrote: Nobody ever experiences an immediate rebirth back into the Earth in their After Life/Near Death experiences. You never hear of that. It's because I believe there is a temporary purification process for those of the more negative nature otherwise known as Hell or their version of Hell, and there is also the resting process and re-assimilation process for those of the more positive nature or otherwise known as Heaven or their version of their experience of it.

Then I would imagine after that if necessary for that particular Soul at some point or another would come the rebirth process and the recycling back into the Earth to grow. It appears that Earth is a key part in this entire process.

So the belief in eternal damnation is not one you adhere to.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:47 am

gmc;1355642 wrote: So the belief in eternal damnation is not one you adhere to.

lol. I tried to grasp it for the entire day a few days ago but no I can not see it even remotely being a possibility. Eternal damnation I mean. Temporary damnation of a personal accord absolutely. One that your own mind has created for yourself absolutely. How would you get out of it? I haven't figured that part out yet and I probably never will. But I know that eventually every Soul at least SHOULD be given a second chance at redemption. And a third, and fourth, and so on. I mean why not? But.....even a temporary Hell can be a very scary place. Keep that in mind. Your subconscious and conscious imagination is capable of picturing and creating some of the most horrific circumstances and images possible. And if you believe in them long enough and actually begin to act them out, and fear them long enough, and move because of them long enough in this Life, than you may just find yourself living in them in the next one. For however long.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:52 am

Let me share some of these After Life experiences with you so you can see the diversity in them:

1. "I was in hell. There was a low murmuring all around me, as if I were in the midst of a huge group of grumbling people. Before me, suddenly, stood a huge black door. The air began to glow and shimmer with oppressive heat. I watched as the door opened upon a vast, flaming oven. I felt myself drawn like a magnet into the center of the flames - although I was terrified to go in. There were hundreds of others already there, roasting to death, but not dead. Once I was inside, the door slammed shut behind me. The worst, most dreadful feelings sloshed around inside me like so much poison. 'Is this actually what hell is?' I asked aloud. I passed my hands through blue-tipped flames. The fire itself was cold, and it did not hurt me. From nowhere, a thought flashed through my mind: Death, where is thy sting? God, even in the midst of this holocaust, was truly in control of everything. I began to laugh, and the others laughed with me. Our laughter bounced off the walls of the oven and echoed over the roar of the flames." [Absent from the Body - Don Brubaker]

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:53 am

2. Now, however, although we were apparently still somewhere on the surface of the earth, I could see no living man or woman. The plain was crowded, even jammed with hordes of ghostly discarnate beings; nowhere was there a solid, light-surrounded person to be seen. All of these thousands of people were apparently no more substantial than I myself. And they were the most frustrated, the angriest, the most completely miserable beings I had ever laid eyes on.

'Lord Jesus!' I cried. 'Where are we?'

At first I thought we were looking at some great battlefield: everywhere spirits were locked in what looked like fights to the death, writhing, punching, gouging. No weapons of any sort, I saw as I looked closer, only bare hands and feet and teeth. And then I noticed that no one was apparently being injured. There was no blood, no bodies strewed the ground. A blow that ought to have eliminated an opponent would leave him exactly as before.

If I suspected that I was seeing hell, now I was sure of it. These creatures seemed locked into habits of mind and emotion, into hatred, lust, destructive thought-patterns.

Even more hideous than the bites and kicks they exchanged, were the sexual abuses many were performing in feverish pantomime. Perversions I had never dreamed of were being vainly attempted all around us. It was impossible to tell if the howls of frustration which reached us were actual sounds or only the transference of despairing thoughts. Indeed in this disembodied world it didn't seem to matter. Whatever anyone thought, however fleetingly or unwillingly, was instantly apparent to all around him, more completely than words could have expressed it, faster than sound waves could have carried it.

And the thoughts most frequently communicated had to do with the superior knowledge, or abilities, or background of the thinker. 'I told you so!' 'I always knew!'

'Didn't I warn you!' were shrieked into the echoing air over and over. With a feeling of sick familiarity I recognized here my own thinking. In these yelps of envy and wounded self-importance I heard myself all to well.

Once again, however, no condemnation came from the Presence at my side, only a compassion for these unhappy creatures that was breaking His heart.

What was keeping them here? Why didn't each one just get up and leave? I could see no reason why the person being screamed at by that man with the contorted face didn't simply walk away. Or why that young woman didn't put a thousand miles between herself and the other one who was so furiously beating her with insubstantial fists? They couldn't actually hold onto their victims, any of these insanely angry beings. There were no fences. Nothing apparently prevented them from simply going off alone.

Unless - unless there was no 'alone' in this realm of disembodied spirits. No private corners in a universe where there were no walls. No place that was not inhabited by other beings to whom one was totally exposed at all times. What was it going to be like, I thought with sudden panic, to live forever where my most private thoughts were not private at all? No disguising them, no covering them up, no way to pretend I was anything but what I actually was. How unbearable. Unless of course everyone around me had the same kind of thoughts - Unless there was a kind of consolation in finding others as loathsome as one's self, even if all we could do was hurl our venom at each other.

Perhaps this was the explanation for this hideous plain. Perhaps in the course of eons or of seconds, each creature here had sought out the company of others as pride and hatefilled as himself, until together they formed this society of the damned.

Perhaps it was not Jesus who had abandoned them, but they who had fled from the Light that showed up their darkness.

There were beings arguing over some religious or political point, trying to kill the ones who did not agree with them. I thought when I saw this, "No wonder our world is in such a mess and we have had so many tragic religious wars. No wonder this was breaking Christ's heart, the One who came to teach us peace and love."

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:55 am

3. David Oakford saw dark souls who were earthbound and who refused to go to the light. They prey on the energies of the living in an attempt to prevent the evolution of their spirit. David learned that we protected from these dark ones as long as we chose to focus on the love within us. David noticed that the dark ones did not even try to affect him. They just gave him nasty looks and went away. David was told that whenever he sees one, he was to tell them to go to the light. The light is a porthole to the place all souls go if they choose to go. David learned that higher beings know where to go and what to do to help an earthbound soul so they may advance themselves if they so choose to do so. (David Oakford)

4. Josiane saw faces rushing toward her with incredible speed. They would race toward her face, expanding and then dissolving. Face after face washed over her and she is terrified. She drifted along and was unable to keep her eyes open.She wondered who these people were. She recognized some of them as people she knew who had died. The whole room was filled with spirits and they would hover near her and look into her eyes. She tried to push them away and she fought them. This experience seemed to go on forever. She identified these people as restless spirits. Their faces were twisted with pain and they seemed lost. She was frightened to see them around her. Suddenly, spirits with glowing faces appeared to her. They reflect a gentle and powerful light which reminded her of pictures of beautiful angels. (Josiane Antonette)

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:56 am

So you see, those were the Hellish experiences. Now I'll go and show the more Heavenly ones. But you see the diversity and how each one is completely unique to the individual and is not uniform in any way. This can only be explained by that person having an individual consciousness which must have participated in what they are finding themselves in after they are dead. Be it temporarily or for however long.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:59 am

One of the most common experiences at the beginning of an NDE is popping or floating out of one's body and then floating or flying down a long tunnel toward a bright, white light that many describe as "loving."

* "In front of me I saw a small light in the vast distance. The light started to get larger. It became more brilliant and it stopped in front of me. I felt an intense love, which came from the Light. I know without a doubt that this beautiful intense loving Light was God. The Light started to communicate with me; but the communication was telepathic, it was not verbal. The Light asked me if I wanted to come with it. At this point I completely understood the nature of the question and the consequences of my answer. If I choose to continue with the Light I knew that I would die and never return to earth. I thought about this and replied that I thought that I still had important things to do back there (on earth). At that point the Light began to recede. I found myself waking up on the bed of my dorm room." [A Near Death Experience in 1964 - Anonymous]

* "I saw nothing but absolute, total blackness. In this capacity, though, I was looking at absolute nothingness or darkness, but my eyes were not straining. I had the desire to look around inquisitively. What is this place? Where am I? Instantaneously, this darkness took the shape of a tunnel. It was perfectly level, however slightly ambiguous in that it was straight before me and it was cloud-like. It was very vast, as opposed to small and confining, and was anywhere from a thousand feet to a thousand miles wide. I was very comfortable and inquisitive. It was cylindrical. If you took a tornado and stretched it out straight, it would be similar to that..."

* "All was panic. The water was very cold. My heavy winter clothes were making it difficult to stay afloat. I continued to struggle mightily, thinking "I'm only nine. That's too young to die." The longer I was under the ice, the less significant time became. It was as if time had no meaning. Everything happened sequentially but simultaneously. I became very tired. I noticed that I could no longer feel the cold. My hearing was heightened. I could hear the movement of the water. I could hear the traffic on the bridge overhead and behind me. I could see clearly, even though it was dark and I was under the ice and moving downstream. Then, a complete calm and serenity overtook me. I was at total peace. I began to come into an awareness that all was not over. I could sense a light. It was brilliant, but caused no discomfort when looking at it. In fact, I gained strength by looking into the light. I then sensed a presence. I had the knowledge that this was Jesus, and he was assuring me that everything was fine. I felt total love from this presence. I was home. More so than I was ever home before. I was presented with a sense that all questions were to be answered if I stayed." [Near-Death Experiences - Rob]

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:00 am

The most frequent descriptions of the afterlife portray an unimaginably beautiful land of color, light and music.

"I can remember a beautiful place with beautiful colors, beautiful music..." [Body Death - Anonymous]

"When I was a little girl, I thought I would really like to know what Heaven was like. I decided that I would pray to God very hard and maybe He would show me. I prayed very hard for quite some time, until gradually there came a buzzing sound in my ears. The sound got louder and louder until it was all I could hear, and then suddenly everything became very quiet. I couldn't even hear the sounds you usually hear when everything is "silent." I was in a velvety blackness, but it was not like being in a dark room (I sensed there were no walls or floor or ceiling). Even though I didn't know what was going on and it was dark, I felt perfectly safe and "stood" there wondering what was going on. Then I saw a pin prick of light far ahead of me. I tried to look at it more closely and see what it was and as I looked it got bigger and bigger. As it grew I felt better and better. I felt totally known, but totally accepted and loved. It was the coolest feeling; words can't even come close to describing how nice it felt. I was relaxed and very happy. Then I was inside the light, which was I guess what being inside a cloud would look like. I felt so loved! I loved it right back and also I felt that just beyond the light, which I sensed acted like a veil or curtain in this case, I was being observed by people who knew me or knew of me and were smiling. I wanted to see them, whoever they were. The light knew what I was thinking and so did the people, and I was aware of this and didn't mind. Then I thought that I could "get used to" how wonderful it felt to be there." [Body Death - Anonymous]

"And then I saw, infinitely far off - far too distant to be visible with any kind of sight I knew of - a city. A glowing, seemingly endless city, bright enough to be seen over all the unimaginable distance between. The brightness seemed to shine from the very walls and streets of this place, and from beings which I could now discern moving about within it. In fact, the city and everything in it seemed to be made of light, even as the figure at my side was made of light." [Heaven and Hell: Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience]

"Suddenly I was aware of being in the most beautiful garden I've ever seen. I felt whole and loved. My sense of well-being was complete. I heard celestial music clearly and saw vivid colored flowers, like nothing seen on earth, gorgeous greenery and trees." [17 Near-Death Experience Accounts from Beyond the Light - Jennine Wolff]

"Gradually the earth scene faded away, and through it loomed a bright, new, beautiful world - beautiful beyond imagination! I stood in a glory that could only be Heaven. In the background were two beautiful, round-topped mountains, similar to Fujiyama in Japan. The tops were snowcapped, and the slopes were adorned with foliage of indescribable beauty. The mountains appeared to be about 15 miles away, yet I could see individual flowers growing on their slopes. I estimated my vision to be about one hundred times better than on earth. To the left was a shimmering lake containing a different kind of water - clear, golden, radiant and alluring. It seemed to be alive. The whole landscape was carpeted with grass so vivid, clear and green, that it defies description. To the right was a grove of large, luxuriant trees, composed of the same clear material that seemed to make up everything. I saw twenty people beyond the first trees, playing a singing-dancing game, something like 'Skip-to-My-Lou.' They were having a hilarious time holding hands and dancing in a circle - fast and lively. As soon as they saw me, four of the players left the game and joyfully skipped over to greet me. As they approached, I estimated their ages to be: one, 30; two, 20; and one, 12. Their bodies seemed almost weightless, and the grace and beauty of their easy movements was fascinating to watch. Both sexes had long, luxuriant hair entwined with flowers, which hung down in glossy masses to their waists. Their only clothing was a gossamer loin cloth with a loop over one shoulder and a broad ribbon streaming out behind in graceful curves and curlicues. Their magnificence not only thrilled me, but filled me with awe. The oldest, largest and strongest-looking man announced pleasantly, 'You are in the land of the dead. We lived on earth, just like you, 'til we came here.' He invited me to look at my arm. I looked, and it was translucent; that is, I could dimly see through it." [17 Near-Death Experience Accounts from Beyond the Light - Arthur E. Yensen]

"I found myself in a place of such beauty and peace. It was timeless and spaceless. I was aware of delicate and shifting hues of colors with their accompanying rainbows of 'sound,' though there was no noise in this sound. It might have felt like wind and bells, were it earthly. I 'hung' there - floating. Then I became aware of other loving, caring beings hovering near me. Their presence was so welcoming and nurturing. They appeared 'formless' in the way I was accustomed by now to seeing things. I don't know how to describe them. I was aware of some bearded male figures in white robes in a semicircle around me. The atmosphere became blended as though made of translucent clouds. I watched as these clouds and their delicate shifting colors moved through and around us." [17 Near-Death Experience Accounts from Beyond the Light - Alice Morrison-Mays]

"I stood there in this gorgeous meadow and I remember that the light there was different from the light here on earth. Though it was not that brilliant white light in which I was involved, it was a more beautiful light. There was a goldenness to this light. I remember the sky was very blue. I don't recall seeing the sun. The colors were extraordinary. The green of the meadow was fantastic. The flowers were blooming all around and they had colors that I had never seen before. I was very aware that I had never seen these colors before and I was very excited about it. I was thrilled to death of the beauty that was incredible. I could see a soft light glowing within every living thing. It was not a light that was reflected from the outside from a source, but it was coming from the center of this flower. Just this beautiful, soft light. I think I was seeing the life inside of everything."

"The world that I had entered was now as solid and real as the world that I had left behind, but the light was still visible. It was a living light. It had vitality and feeling. It was focused in every living thing just as the sun can be focused to a point with a magnifying glass. There were colors too, not only the colors that I had known on earth but many octaves of color. Surrounding all my friends and every other living thing was color, arranged in intricate geometrical patterns, each pattern unique, every pattern original. Permeating the colors and patterns was sound, countless octaves of sound. It was as though the colors could be heard. It reminded me of bagpipes. Filling the entire region were the droning sounds. Octave upon octave of invigorating, vitalizing sound. It was very subtle, practically imperceptible but immense, it seemed to reach to infinity. Superimposed on this vast life-giving hum, was the melody, which was created by the individual sound of every living thing. Light and sound, color and geometrical patterns were all combined into a totality of harmonic perfection."

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:03 am

Than we have the ones where Loved ones are seen:

"I hear a bark, and racing toward me is a dog I once had, a black poodle named Pepe. When I see him, I feel an emotional floodgate open. Tears fill my eyes. He jumps into my arms, licking my face. As I hold him, he is real, more real than I had ever experienced him. I can smell him, feel him, hear his breathing and sense his great joy at being with me again. I put my dog on the ground and step forward to embrace my stepfather, when a very strong voice is heard in my consciousness. 'Not yet,' it says. I scream out, 'Why?' Then this inner voice says, 'What have you learned, and whom have you helped?' I am dumb-founded. The voice seems to be from without as well as within. Everything stops for a moment. I have to think of what was asked of me. I cannot answer what I have learned, but I can answer whom I have helped. I feel the presence of my dog around me as I ponder those two questions. Then I hear barking, and other dogs appear, dogs I once had. As I stand there for what seems to be an eternity. I want to embrace and be absorbed and merge. I want to stay. The sensation of not wanting to come back is overwhelming." [17 Near-Death Experience Accounts from Beyond the Light - Bryce Bond]

"I noticed that as I began to discern different figures in the light - and they were all covered with light - they were light and had light permeating all around them - they began to form shapes I could recognize and understand. I could see that one of them was my grandmother. I don't know if it was reality or projection, but I would know my grandmother, the sound of her, anytime, anywhere. Everyone I saw, looking back on it, fit perfectly into my understanding of what that person looked like at their best during their lives. I recognized a lot of people. My uncle Gene was there. So was my great-great-Aunt Maggie, who was really a cousin. On Papa's side of the family, my grandfather was there. They were specifically taking care of me, looking after me." [Beyond Brain Death: Pam Reynolds]

"Immediately I was in the most beautiful serene place I had ever been. My grandfather, another person whom I had known in a previous life and a guardian were ready to help me with the transition. They told me of the accident, showed me the site. It was my time to come home, they said. The overwhelming love and happiness of that place was so inviting." [Moving Heaven and Earth: Karen Schaeffer]

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:05 am

So you see, they are all varied. Regardless this is proof of the power of one person's consciousness to provide that person with their own unique experience of the After Life. Whether it is a Hellish one or a Heavenly one it all seems to relate to how that particular person lived their Life while they were alive on the Earth.

Some of them see Jesus, some of them don't. Again, I would imagine this depends on whether you built a relationship with Christ while you lived or not. But it would appear that if you believed in Jesus while you were alive that you can actually encounter Him in your After Life experience or at least based upon what these people experienced.

Also, here are some good videos from that series I was talking about before that me and my wife like to watch:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:24 am

TruthBringer;1355643 wrote: lol. I tried to grasp it for the entire day a few days ago but no I can not see it even remotely being a possibility. Eternal damnation I mean. Temporary damnation of a personal accord absolutely. One that your own mind has created for yourself absolutely. How would you get out of it? I haven't figured that part out yet and I probably never will. But I know that eventually every Soul at least SHOULD be given a second chance at redemption. And a third, and fourth, and so on. I mean why not? But.....even a temporary Hell can be a very scary place. Keep that in mind. Your subconscious and conscious imagination is capable of picturing and creating some of the most horrific circumstances and images possible. And if you believe in them long enough and actually begin to act them out, and fear them long enough, and move because of them long enough in this Life, than you may just find yourself living in them in the next one. For however long.

Do you confine your studies to christianity or do you look at other religions?

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/reincarnation.asp

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:03 am

gmc;1355655 wrote: Do you confine your studies to christianity or do you look at other religions?

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/reincarnation.asp

Sometimes I do. In fact I am interested in hearing more about other people's experiences as well who believe in different religions and who have After Life experiences just like Christians, Jews, Atheists, and Agnostics do.

For example:

Religious Descriptions of the Earthbound Realm

Buddhism: The deceased eventually enters a realm of hungry ghosts were the deceased have huge stomachs and throats the size of pinholes. Because of this, they wander around in a constant state of unsatisfied ravenous desire. Eventually, the unliberated deceased encounters the Lord of Death for judgment. The Lord of Death holds up before him the Mirror of Karma where every good and evil act is vividly reflected. Now demons approach and begin to inflict torments and punishments upon the deceased for their evil deeds. Even here the deceased can attain liberation by recognizing this. The deceased who is still not liberated after the Judgment will now be drawn remorselessly toward reincarnation. At some point, liberation is no longer possible and the deceased are instructed on how to choose the best womb for a favorable reincarnation. (Buddhism)

Be not fond of the dull smoke-colored light from hell. (Tibetan Book of the Dead)

Hinduism: Each of the dimensions of the Great Mandala of the Cosmos represents a quality of energy, or light. Each dimension of this Mandala, which moves out from the central Whiteness, are infinite numbers of possible worlds and various kinds of embodiment. The dimension which we live in now is on the outskirts of this Great Mandala. Dimensions even farther away from the center may be called "hells" where there is less awareness, less possibilities, than the dimension we live in now. (Hinduism)

Islam: Muslim theologians, particularly those of the Asharite school, believed that if a believer entered hell, God could forgive his sins or nonconformities and remove him, either immediately or after a certain period during which imperfections had been burned away. The basis for this doctrine is the Hadith: "He shall make men come out of hell after they have been burned and reduced to cinders." In addition to this purgatory of suffering, there is another Muslim limbo - al-A'raf (the "heights" or "ramparts"), described in a chapter of the Koran by that name - in which those souls reside that do not merit damnation yet are unable to enter paradise. (Muslim)

Judaism: In rabbinical thought, the model for heaven was Eden. The rabbinic word for hell, Gehenna, is taken from the name of a valley of fire where children were said to be sacrificed as burnt offerings to Baal and Moloch (Semitic deities). Jewish legend paints hell with all of the vividness that medieval Christians did, even associating particular tortures with particular sins. (Judaism)

Gnosticism: Christian Gnostics viewed living on Earth as a kind of hell. Gnosticism saw human beings as trapped in a cycle of reincarnation and believed that even suicide could not release one from bondage to the flesh. In marked contrast with orthodox Christian belief, bodily resurrection was not viewed as part of the scheme of redemption. Rather, only the destruction of the body and of all Satan's visible creation - which is hell - was adequate to ensure salvation of the soul and its ascent to heaven. (Gnosticism)

Christianity: Scriptures showing souls do not stay in hell forever:

[Jesus] went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. (Luke 12:47-48)

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:22-26)

It should be difficult for any Christian to honestly conceive of a God of infinite love and mercy to permit even one soul to be tortured forever in hell.It is common sense that a few minutes in hell is enough for even the hardest of sinners to change their mind and repent. And what kind of God would create someone knowing that he will ultimately throw that person in hell to be tortured forever?It should be obvious that it would be better for God to not even create such a person. If an evil father treats his children better than this, how much more so God?

Jesus stated:

Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! (Matt. 7:9-11)

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:29 am

It's been suggested that JC was influenced by eastern religions. Where was he in the years before he started his ministry? Certainly there was trade with India and the far east and with trade there is also a sharing of ideas. The visions of hell owe a great deal to greek and roman concepts of the underworld, just as the devil looks remarkably like some of the mythical beasts. If you see a lava flow it's not hard to imagine an underworld. The notion that the writers of the bible were not influenced by those around them is an absurd one imo.

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:00 am

gmc;1355679 wrote: It's been suggested that JC was influenced by eastern religions.
It is more likely that eastern religions, and Greek philosophy also, were influenced by the following of Abraham and Israel (Jacob) before Jesus was born, and that any influence that reached Jesus was an echo of his own tradition- if not his own voice, if indeed he is the Jehovah of the Israelites.

Where was he in the years before he started his ministry? Certainly there was trade with India and the far east and with trade
The locals of Nazareth expressed surprise at his knowledge and powers, so it may be supposed that Jesus had always lived in Nazareth after his childhood return from Egypt, with only the customary journeys to Jerusalem as breaks away. He would have had contact with people of many nationalities, as Galilee was a thriving trade centre, indeed he lived only a short distance from one of the two trade main routes of the region. He would have known Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew and probably some Latin, but the only lore that he would have taken note of as authoritative would have been in Hebrew. Had he been significantly influenced by any other tradition, we would never have heard of him.

there is also a sharing of ideas. The visions of hell owe a great deal to greek and roman concepts of the underworld, just as the devil looks remarkably like some of the mythical beasts.
There is in Christianity no pictorial image, literal or verbal, of Satan. Contrary to common belief, the notion of a punitive hell can indeed be drawn from the scripture that Jesus used, and from an early date, too. There is not a syllable of Jesus' teaching that is not based on his own scripture, and of course many Jews were known to be fiercely resistant to attempts to syncretise their religion- even the tough Roman Empire knew about that. There is no need to suppose a sharing of ideas- unless it was from Jesus' religion outwards.

TruthBringer · Post by **TruthBringer** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:31 pm

xyz;1355695 wrote: It is more likely that eastern religions, and Greek philosophy also, were influenced by the following of Abraham and Israel (Jacob) before Jesus was born, and that any influence that reached Jesus was an echo of his own tradition- if not his own voice, if indeed he is the Jehovah of the Israelites.

The locals of Nazareth expressed surprise at his knowledge and powers, so it may be supposed that Jesus had always lived in Nazareth after his childhood return from Egypt, with only the customary journeys to Jerusalem as breaks away. He would have had contact with people of many nationalities, as Galilee was a thriving trade centre, indeed he lived only a short distance from one of the two trade main routes of the region. He would have known Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew and probably some Latin, but the only lore that he would have taken note of as authoritative would have been in Hebrew. Had he been significantly influenced by any other tradition, we would never have heard of him.

There is in Christianity no pictorial image, literal or verbal, of Satan. Contrary to common belief, the notion of a punitive hell can indeed be drawn from the scripture that Jesus used, and from an early date, too. There is not a syllable of Jesus' teaching that is not based on his own scripture, and of course many Jews were known to be fiercely resistant to attempts to syncretise their religion- even the tough Roman Empire knew about that. There is no need to suppose a sharing of ideas- unless it was from Jesus' religion outwards.

Well, there is "the dragon" that the Bible speaks of, and Lucifer as a fallen Angel. "the dragon" made war in Heaven with Michael the Archangel and His Angels and "the dragon" lost and was cast out.

There are many cults today who still worship this "dragon" under many different names.

The early Gnostic Christians also mentioned a lion headed "dragon" in their scriptures, which they refer to as "the Demiurge", and which I find interesting because the Bible talks about how Satan walks to and fro on the Earth in the form of a roaring lion looking for whom he may devour.

So if the two are the same, than it would appear that this "dragon" has the ability to change forms.

xyz · Post by **xyz** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:35 am

TruthBringer;1355731 wrote: Well, there is "the dragon" that the Bible speaks of, and Lucifer as a fallen Angel.
What does an angel look like?

"the dragon" made war in Heaven with Michael the Archangel and His Angels and "the dragon" lost and was cast out.
What does a dragon look like? And is the popular image of Satan, the hooved and horned goat-man, that of a dragon?

The early Gnostic Christians
A contradiction in terms, but never mind.

the Bible talks about how Satan walks to and fro on the Earth in the form of a roaring lion looking for whom he may devour.
:) Ludicrous. Peter warned that Satan goes about like a roaring lion, a phenomenon not unknown to ME ancients. A lion is not a mythical beast, anyway.

So if the two are the same, than it would appear that this "dragon" has the ability to change forms.
So what is the purpose of saying that 'the devil looks remarkably like some of the mythical beasts', if he can change his form at will? Could he not make himself look like Colonel Gadaffi, or Sarah Palin, or Herr Ratzinger, or Joyce Meyer?

This is an absurdly amateur, literalist, fundamentalist approach, the worldly version of things, the whole thing neatly, yet crazily, upside down:

'Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.' 2 Cor 11:14-15 (NIV)