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Personally I like Mormons and find things like their Family Night and self reliance admirable, but I do have a problem with the faith itself and find myself questioning people like Mitt Romney and other top figure Mormons sanity. OK---so in 1978 the church changed it's position on BLACKS ENTERING THE PRIESTHOOD, but how does one just all of a sudden forget what the founder & Prophet "Joseph Smith" said about blacks, pretty sick stuff folks. Brigham Young as the second Prophet wasn't much better. Don't get me started on the Indians , that's another bizarre thing.

Interesting Quotes from Brigham Young, the Second Prophet of the Mormon Church | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

The Mormon God and Skin Color

Lon;1357090 wrote: Personally I like Mormons[/url]


As a Moron myself Id like to thank you. Most people are fairly hostile toward me.

Perhaps you need to find an American of their time who presented a less chauvinist opinion. Or even a European. Without comments from contemporaries presenting alternatives you've nothing to compare Smith and Young's statements with. What you can't sensibly do is compare their statements with present opinions on the same topics, it would be meaningless.

Their culture is not our culture. Smith and Young may well have thought their views on race were eternal verities. Modernists would consider the variable nature of societies and recognize a cultural element in their personal opinions. Back-projecting our assumptions onto frontiersmen of 200 years ago isn't really helpful.

:-2Nomad;1357279 wrote: As a Moron myself Id like to thank you. Most people are fairly hostile toward me.


You are no doubt related to the Mormon angel MORONI. :-2

Angel Moroni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

spot;1357280 wrote: Perhaps you need to find an American of their time who presented a less chauvinist opinion. Or even a European. Without comments from contemporaries presenting alternatives you've nothing to compare Smith and Young's statements with. What you can't sensibly do is compare their statements with present opinions on the same topics, it would be meaningless.

Their culture is not our culture. Smith and Young may well have thought their views on race were eternal verities. Modernists would consider the variable nature of societies and recognize a cultural element in their personal opinions. Back-projecting our assumptions onto frontiersmen of 200 years ago isn't really helpful.


Actually there were plenty and always have been or we would never have progressed. You can start with those running the underground railroad helping slaves escape. Or the many white men who lived with and fought alongside the american indians. How about the shakers? Arguably their influence on american society was greater than the mormons. The mormons are nio sillier than any other religious sect imo

spot;1357280 wrote: Perhaps you need to find an American of their time who presented a less chauvinist opinion. Or even a European. Without comments from contemporaries presenting alternatives you've nothing to compare Smith and Young's statements with. What you can't sensibly do is compare their statements with present opinions on the same topics, it would be meaningless.

Their culture is not our culture. Smith and Young may well have thought their views on race were eternal verities. Modernists would consider the variable nature of societies and recognize a cultural element in their personal opinions. Back-projecting our assumptions onto frontiersmen of 200 years ago isn't really helpful.


As Prophets, Smith & Young's views were supposedly GOD INSPIRED. What's that say about GOD?

Lon;1357299 wrote: As Prophets, Smith & Young's views were supposedly GOD INSPIRED. What's that say about GOD?


Either he is real and possibly insane, or he isn't real and smith and young are insane and hearing voices that tell them what to do. prophet/insane which they are depends on how you choose to interpret it.

gmc;1357283 wrote: Actually there were plenty and always have been or we would never have progressed. You can start with those running the underground railroad helping slaves escape. Or the many white men who lived with and fought alongside the american indians. How about the shakers? Arguably their influence on american society was greater than the mormons. The mormons are nio sillier than any other religious sect imo


I'd thought the Mormons figured prominently among those who fought alongside the american indians.

I'd quite like a couple of names so I can find genuine quotes, rather than "there were plenty". I'm interested to see how their known comments compare.

http://www.nebraskahistory.org/publish/ ... r_Qtrs.pdf

New book on Mormon-led massacre opens old wounds - USATODAY.com

History of San Bernardino, California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mormon Battalion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Temecula Massacre



Now I have to think, at the end of a music day......

There is another incident, I think California desert but not San Bernardino, of Indians and Mormons, and when I remember I will post a link and quote from a book.

(on topic, but off topic of Native Americans....I would not want to be a Mormon woman, I do not want to be eternally pregnant.......and that is what they believe, God was once a man as we were, and He was born once-they will populate other worlds via semi-natural means. I had my four kids, I ain't having no more.....and woman do not go to Mormon hell, as far as I know, so they can't blast me for saying it. Quote by Bringham Young: "Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 222, he claimed, " I doubt whether it can be found, from the revelations that are given and the facts as they exist, that there is a female in all the regions of hell. We are not complaining of not having more wives then one. I don't begin to have as many as I shall have by and by, nor you either, if you are faithful." )

My initial concern about Mormonism and Indians has to do with the "Book Of Mormon" (a sacred text) and Indians, not their relationship with Indians in the 19th century.

An Indian Interpretation of the Book of Mormon

spot;1357330 wrote: I'd thought the Mormons figured prominently among those who fought alongside the american indians.

I'd quite like a couple of names so I can find genuine quotes, rather than "there were plenty". I'm interested to see how their known comments compare.


you are the one claiming there were no americans or europeans who presented a less chauvanistic opinion.

Perhaps you need to find an American of their time who presented a less chauvinist opinion. Or even a European. Without comments from contemporaries presenting alternatives you've nothing to compare Smith and Young's statements with. What you can't sensibly do is compare their statements with present opinions on the same topics, it would be meaningless.




An extraordinary claim on your part. Were it true we would not have had any kind of progress in respecting people of different colours. Have a look at some of the contemporary writings against black slavery in the states - not everybody bought in to the idea they were lesser beings according to the bible. Look up the shakers who didn't just make nice furniture.

"you are the one claiming there were no americans or europeans who presented a less chauvanistic opinion"? How on earth do you come to that conclusion, with my words slap in front of you? I said nothing of the sort. If you infer it I most certainly didn't imply it much less say it and I don't even remotely think it.

Just carefully re-read what I wrote, please. It's a reasonable request, I'm not fighting, I'm simply interested in discussion. Which contemporaries of Smith and Young would you suggest I look for quotes from, to compare what they said and which you think represent a less chauvinist opinion.

spot;1357393 wrote: "you are the one claiming there were no americans or europeans who presented a less chauvanistic opinion"? How on earth do you come to that conclusion, with my words slap in front of you? I said nothing of the sort. If you infer it I most certainly didn't imply it much less say it and I don't even remotely think it.

Just carefully re-read what I wrote, please. It's a reasonable request, I'm not fighting, I'm simply interested in discussion. Which contemporaries of Smith and Young would you suggest I look for quotes from, to compare what they said and which you think represent a less chauvinist opinion.


It can be taken either the way I took it or the way I now realise you actually meant it. You're right my apologies just forget what I posted.