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Let's not worry about the definition of "good". I have, for a long time, doubted the value of laws to enforce sociable behaviour. I feel a person either respects others or they don't. Laws are just an interesting obstacle course to those that don't wish to follow them. Of course there are those who lobby against laws because they want the social acceptance of the law recognising their needs or wants. But, take gay marriage for instance. Gay marriage not being legal doesn't deter gays or bisexuals from having relationships. The lobby for legalisation is mostly for acceptance... and the right for spousal eligibility to benefits. Drugs being illegal doesn't stop people from taking them.

I don't think I've avoiding killing my neighbour because it's illegal. I don't kill her because I don't think it will solve my problems.

While laws have not and will not make people good they will protect and add a measure of safety due to FEAR OF PUNISHMENT despite the fact that there are some that will not worry about punishment.

I have, for a long time, doubted the value of laws to enforce sociable behavior.


I once read that a measure of a society is the willingness of the members of a society to adhere to and obey the unenforceable. Laws are basically inventions used to regulate people and their behavior, we choose to obey or not to obey for our own reasons, each case is different. I think that laws are second to choice, you choose not to kill your neighbor when you could if you so wished. The situation also dictates to a large degree our behaviors. Were some fool assaulting your daughter in front of you I have no doubt you would lose your civility with a quickness. You are a civil minded person, as are most of us but there are limits. I still have a lot of faith in humanities civility for the most part.

I have read a lot about what happened in Leningrad, Kharkov and other places in WWII. Material never printed in the west as it would not serve the purpose of portraying the people involved in the proper bestial light. There were the vast majority who sacrificed all they had and paid the ultimate price, there were a very few who thought only of themselves and in the end usually got a bullet for it.

I doubt in the end we need many of these laws on the books. I do trust in the civility of my neighbors to a point depending on the individual.

Does everyone trust the civility of the people around them?

Scrat;1358072 wrote: I doubt in the end we need many of these laws on the books. I do trust in the civility of my neighbors to a point depending on the individual.

Does everyone trust the civility of the people around them?That's pretty much my view as well. Rules generally keep honest people honest. They are most needed when a person can be anonymous, making the temptation to get away with something they know they shouldn't do that much stronger - such as cutting corners in the processing of food. Large cities need many laws. Villages need far fewer.

Very good points AC.

Well said. Good and honest people don't need laws.

Like locks, they are only needed when people are not good and honest. and they don't really stop the dishonest.

As I wander through the little towns on the back roads, I find it to be interesting to take note of what signs are posted on the main street. For each sign, there is a corresponding law that was enacted because they had a problem at some time in the past. A small town doesn't spend the money to erect signs saying "No Spitting on Sidewalk" unless they had some incidents that caused them to remind people.

I'm currently parked in the forest near the village of Mendocino, in northern California. It is a cute little village of art galleries and interesting shops. On the door to almost every shop is a sign stating that cell phone use is not allowed in the shop. I must admit that it is a very peaceful place.

The purpose of making laws is not to make people good it is to provide a means of redress against those who would exploit others and protect the weak from the strong.

"Laws control the lesser man... Right conduct controls the greater one.”

Mark Twain quote (American Humorist, Writer and Lecturer. 1835-1910)

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.”

Martin Luther King, Jr. quote (American Baptist Minister and Civil-Rights Leader. 1929-1968)

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.”

Plato quote (Ancient Greek Philosopher He was the world's most influential philosopher. 428 BC-348 BC)

Laws are not about good or bad, they are not even about right or wrong; they are strictly about legal or illegal.

How many times have you shaken your head in disbelief when you hear of someone getting off a crime either completely or with a very light sentence?

This is why lawyers are seen as such scumbags, they do not measure acts by right or wrong, good or bad, just by its legal standing.

If laws made people good, the jails would not be so overcrowded.

koan;1358065 wrote:

I don't think I've avoiding killing my neighbour because it's illegal. I don't kill her because I don't think it will solve my problems.


This is what were really talking about isnt it?

No one is going to judge you.

The biggest problem I see with law is laws don't dictate good behavior, they merely define the lowest standard of acceptable behavior, before a mob loses patience and attacks the village idiot getting on their nerves. There's no law against being a complete and total *******. The side-effect of this, is often law is seen to give legitimacy to an action. For example you hear the argument "It's not illegal, therefore there they didn't do anything wrong." (Example: the behavior of corporate america leading up to recent economic meltdown). Though half the time, something is not illegal simply because the people making the laws were paid well enough to make sure the set of questionable actions (generating the money with which they are paid) is not prohibited.