The Final Dialectic

[gmc]

I'm curious have you read 1984? One of the themes of the book is that big brother came about gradually with freedoms being eroded one by one in a graduyal process that nobody noticed till one day big brother was there and nobody was able to speak against him. Orwell was a socialist that originally supported the communist revolution in Russia and after experiences in spain and in Russia seeing the way things were going became disillusioned, not by socialism per se but by its corruption in to the stalinist state. His book was intended as a warning of what could happen if you accept that a little loss of freedon for the common good is acceptable then it is easy to accept the next then the next and then one day you wake up with none.

The same theme in ray Bradbury's 451 where banning one book is OK then another and that's ok then another till one day the choice has disappeared and nobody realisess what is happening and any book is bad.

Its human nature and nothing to do with the moral decay of society, That implies that society has fallen from a higher moral point and is the kind of logic that leads on to burning books and quashing dissent.

It's not that long ago that many americans opposed inter racial marraiges on moral grounds quoting the bible freely to make their case and I suppose many still feel the same way (I'm not american so I am wary of making comment but I was looking for a an extreme example to make a point) They thought it was acceptable to kill those who transgressed and really did not understand what was wrong with their action, most of america was appalled, Morality is relative and you can justify almost any action on moral grounds from the father beating his child to make him good or the husband viewing his wife as a chattel, go back two generations and many would have thought that only right and proper, women had to give up work if they got married and god help you if you were a single mother because society wouldn't.

Many cite the prevalence of dicvorce as a sign of moral dacay. Go back to the turn of the century 1900 I mean or even the century before women couldn't vote (or most men come to that) they couldn't own property, If they were widowed they would find themselves completely at the mercy of those around them

even 50 or 60 yrears ago the only work available was in a factory or on the streets, if they left their husbands they were social pariahs.

Now they have economic freedom, if in an unpleasant marraige, abusive husband whatever they can get out because economically they can support themselves and their children. Morally many people think it only right that in such circumstances you can get out whereas before it was economically impossible and widely condemned, yet many think this morally reprehensible and condemn divorcees as lacking in moral fibre because you should stay with someone no matter what.

There are perhaps two strains in our society, one egalitarian and willing to work with others and the other the desire to control and rule with the latter often being the ones with the drive to impose their will until the rest get fed up and exert themselves to pull them down. In europe we had aristocracy that managesd to convince us they had a right to rule and it took a lot to get rid of them. In the US you have what seems to be a socio political elite setting the agenda (it;s hard to avoid not quite right genaralisations isn't it)

In the past the gulf between rich and poor in America would have resulted in massive social unrest, but you live in the land of opportunity where everyone can get their dream, anyone pushing for social reform seems to be demonised as a nasty communist and any valid point of view they may have gets ignored. You seem to have got to the point where any criticism of your administration is unpoatriotic-end of discussion. That kind of attitude is bad for democracy especially if you let it hold sway.

America is more than a capitalist country, I suggest you have a look at the history of social change in america, forget the detail get an overview, have a look at macarthyism and what was behind that, have a look at the civil rights movement or the arguements over vietnam and how america got involved in that one, or the long term effect of the great depression on society.

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems. In a complex society the one who has all the answers probably doesn't. If somebody laments the moral decay and the break down of the fabric of society just ask them what was so good about before.

http://www.liv-coll.ac.uk/pa09/europetr ... moller.htm

Hope the link works

Everbody loves to quote Martin Niemöller’s lines about moral failure in the face of the Holocaust: 'First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist, so I said nothing. Then they came for the Social Democrats, but I was not a Social Democrat, so I did nothing. Then came the trade unionists, but I was not a trade unionist. And then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew, so I did little. Then when they came for me, there was no one left to stand up for me.'

But interestingly, people use the quotation to imply different meanings – even altering it to suit their purpose. When Time magazine used the quotation, they moved the Jews to the first place and dropped both the communists and the social democrats. American Vice-President Al Gore likes the to quote the lines, but drops the trade unionists for good measure. Gore and Time also added Roman Catholics, who weren't on Niemöller's list at all. In the heavily Catholic city of Boston, Catholics were added to the quotation inscribed on its Holocaust memorial. The US Holocaust Museum drops the Communists but not the Social Democrats; other versions have added homosexuals.

Why history matters, DD Guttenplan, The Guardian, Saturday April 15,

2000:


I can type, I can spell why is it so hard to do both at the same time?

[gmc]

One of the functions of language and the effect of a book like 1984 is it gives you the intellectual tools to describe what is happening. words like big brother and newspeak have entered the language so the phenomenon is aticulated whereas before you didn't have the words to describe the concept. Although these kinds of things have always been there throughout history what is different now is we have the capacity to destroy ourselves.

What is also different is things like the internet, news media can be controlled however inadvertanly the process happens the internet cannot, as yet. the best defence I think is to get people thinking for themselves and to question what they are told.

you seem to be a very insightful individual. How true

I doubt it I just read a lot. One of the reasons i like this kind of forum is you get a chance to talk to people with widely different viewpoints, you might not persuade them to your point of view but at least you can both end up with an understanding of the other.

In real life i often find the one with the most definite opinion is also the one least thought out, it's a sign of intelligence to always question what you know.

The thing about big brother and america I can't work out what's going on. It seems any criticism is slapped down as being unamerican or anti american depending on who it is from. nationalities are being stereotyped for no good reason. On the other hand i find it hard to believe you are all that daft. It now looks as if you are lining up to start a war with Iran, I just can't believe americans just follow blindly but there seems to be no one questioning what's going on.

I see many posts from people who believe this is the end time, I occsasionally tune in to the god channel-(it's like a scab I have to scratch to see whats there) and see preachers quoting form the bible warning of the second coming. It's slightly worrying that they seem to be in the white house now. All you need is a religious nut in a position of power and so convinced of their rightness that they carry people along with them as nobiody had the nerve to say cobblers. (no I don't mean i think Bush is a religious nut don't take it that way)

You're right we do have the same things happening in our society, the difference is we seem to start out distrusting our politicians as a matter of course. Like you the majority of people don't bother voting but then apathy and disinterest don't always mean people will alwus be disinterested. When Maggie Thatcher got booted out it was because she finally pissed off enough voters to get them to vote. Tony Blair I suspect is dong the same. It's not just about Iraq there are a lot of domestic issues as well. The hostility to the Iraq war was fairly intense with the biggest demonstarions this country has seen for a long time- add to them all the supporters who now realise they were lied to TB is less popular than you might think.

[rasil]

soulja1906 wrote: Our world is changing. The change is occuring so subtley that most people do not notice our gradual transgression from the life that we were intended to live. From paradise to a police state, we are now witnessing the synthesis of a dialectic process that has been ushering mankind into destruction for centuries. This is not a conspiracy theory thread or a religious sermon to scare people into doctrine. This is what is real.


A new world order is currently in place and you are correct...there is nothing humanity can do to change it.

[rasil]

A new world order is currently in place and you are correct...there is nothing humanity can do to change it. Personally, I feel bad for those who do not, can not and will not see until it is too late. Be at peace.

[A Karenina]

gmc wrote: The thing about big brother and america I can't work out what's going on. It seems any criticism is slapped down as being unamerican or anti american depending on who it is from. nationalities are being stereotyped for no good reason. On the other hand i find it hard to believe you are all that daft. I about died laughing at that one! We apparently are that daft.



gmc wrote: It now looks as if you are lining up to start a war with Iran, I just can't believe americans just follow blindly but there seems to be no one questioning what's going on.I've been worried that we will go after Iran for a long time now. Some people do see, and they do try to fight back. But there are so many who are afraid. They don't want to think it through, don't want to question, and so not only blindly follow but form a sort of mob-attack against anyone who dares to think and question.



Some days I have infinite patience and understanding about this. It can't be easy to believe in the near-mythical goodness of America one day, and then suddenly come face to face with our own actions like pre-emptive strikes, holding people without legal representation of any kind, torture, imperialism, and so on. If this clarity comes too quickly, I would imagine it could break a person. It must be gradual for some people, so that they don't lose their faith in the ideals America represents. Does that make sense?



But quite honestly on other days, I'm completely annoyed by the (intentional?) blindness, the willingness to throw away our ability to take our own country back, and the refusal to accept anything less than their own personal vision - as if their thoughts are a universal truth. On those days, I can only say that people are deserving of the government they have.



gmc wrote: I see many posts from people who believe this is the end time, I occsasionally tune in to the god channel-(it's like a scab I have to scratch to see whats there) and see preachers quoting form the bible warning of the second coming. It's slightly worrying that they seem to be in the white house now. All you need is a religious nut in a position of power and so convinced of their rightness that they carry people along with them as nobiody had the nerve to say cobblers. (no I don't mean i think Bush is a religious nut don't take it that way)Bush isn't a religious nut? He said that God is talking to him. One would think that God would prefer more enlightened conversation, but who knows?



I'm all for the rapture/end of the world thing, if it means the religious get to be lifted up into the sky where they will be happy and they leave the rest of us alone to try to create some peaceful order down here on earth. <~~~~ insert wicked grin here.



Note: In case this post offends someone, that is not my intent and I do apologize in advance. At the same time, I am still willing to state my views and listen to anyone else's as well.