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Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:16 am
by Bruv
Exerts from



Is Western Democracy Real or a Facade?



Greece’s appointed--not elected--prime minister is Lucas Papademos, He is a former governor of the Bank of Greece, a member of Rockefeller’s Trilateral Commission, and former vice president of the European Central Bank. In other words, he is a banker appointed to represent the banks.

Italy has formed a second democratic government devoid of democracy. The appointed prime minister, Mario Monti, doesn’t have to face an election until April 2013. Moreover, according to news reports, his “technocratic cabinet” does not include a single elected politician. The banks are taking no chances: Monti is both prime minister and minister of economics and finance.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:26 am
by Ahso!
It only seems normal to me for money experts to be running capitalistic forms of government.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:30 am
by Bruv
Ahso!;1384718 wrote: It only seems normal to me for money experts to be running capitalistic forms of government.


Unelected money experts ?

Did you give the article a glance ?

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:37 am
by Accountable
Seems that we may be experiencing just a more sophisticated form of feudalism.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:38 am
by Ahso!
Bruv;1384719 wrote: Unelected money experts ?

Did you give the article a glance ?Enough of a glance. Elections are mostly bullshit anyway, people are easily manipulated to vote against their own interests with enough money thrown at the media.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:55 am
by Bruv
Accountable;1384722 wrote: Seems that we may be experiencing just a more sophisticated form of feudalism.
And we are all pawns.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:58 am
by Bruv
Ahso!;1384723 wrote: Enough of a glance. Elections are mostly bullshit anyway, people are easily manipulated to vote against their own interests with enough money thrown at the media.
That statement 'Elections are mostly bullshit anyway' is part of the problem maybe.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:13 am
by Ahso!
Bruv;1384727 wrote: That statement 'Elections are mostly bullshit anyway' is part of the problem maybe.No question.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:02 am
by Scrat
That statement 'Elections are mostly bullshit anyway' is part of the problem maybe.


Are you saying Ahso has a bad attitude? He's right on target.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:27 am
by Accountable
Scrat;1384733 wrote: Are you saying Ahso has a bad attitude? He's right on target.
He still has a bad attitude. :D

eta: The Truth shall set you free, but it might not make you happy. :yh_wink

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:36 am
by Bruv
Scrat;1384733 wrote: Are you saying Ahso has a bad attitude? He's right on target.


Could either be lethargy or helplessness, same result.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:47 am
by Ahso!
But i vote every election cycle, if for no other reason than to get out of the house on occasion.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:57 am
by K.Snyder
Bruv;1384719 wrote: Unelected money experts ?

Did you give the article a glance ?"As navigation is separate from astronomy and astronomers do not offer advice on guiding a ship the science of political economy has no concern for practical or moral issues, and economists need not or should not offer advice or criticism thereon" is how I interpreted Ahso!'s post...The quote from John Kenneth Galbraith, a very notable figure in western democracy...

Democracy is not a facade. The concern, it seems to me, would be for those that cannot distinguish between democracy and oppression. The center of forethought that we're faced with actually in our current times...

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:10 am
by Bruv
K.Snyder;1384739 wrote: "As navigation is separate from astronomy and astronomers do not offer advice on guiding a ship the science of political economy has no concern for practical or moral issues, and economists need not or should not offer advice or criticism thereon" is how I interpreted Ahso!'s post...The quote from John Kenneth Galbraith, a very notable figure in western democracy...

Democracy is not a facade. The concern, it seems to me, would be for those that cannot distinguish between democracy and oppression. The center of forethought that we're faced with actually in our current times...


I have trouble interpreting your posts, let alone you interpreting Ahso's posts.



Are you saying the opposite of democracy is oppression ?

The last sentence.....blew my mind.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:18 am
by K.Snyder
Bruv;1384742 wrote: Are you saying the opposite of democracy is oppression ?I'm saying that a democracy does not guarantee the eradication of oppression but that any form of government can oppress, it's just a matter of which minority group hovers around a life of subsistence.

Bruv;1384742 wrote:

The last sentence.....blew my mind.It's what I'm here for

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:19 am
by Ahso!
Bruv;1384727 wrote: That statement 'Elections are mostly bullshit anyway' is part of the problem maybe.Watch it, my cynicism has been carefully molded.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:21 am
by Ahso!
K.Snyder;1384744 wrote: It's what I'm here forAren't we all.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:25 am
by Bruv
K.Snyder;1384744 wrote: I'm saying that a democracy does not guarantee the eradication of oppression but that any form of government can oppress, it's just a matter of which minority group hovers around a life of subsistence.

It's what I'm here for


Then why didn't you say just that ?

Is an oppressive democracy, a true democracy ?

Hence the question, is democracy a facade ?

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:28 am
by Bruv
Ahso!;1384745 wrote: Watch it, my cynicism has been carefully molded.


Someone with a better use of the language could make a joke about there being no 'you' in molded.

Probably only work for the English amongst us though.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:31 am
by LarsMac
What most countries have, today, is not democracy.

That we keep using that term to describe the government of today is laughable.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:43 am
by flopstock
A democracy is only as strong as the will of the people. And folks these days don't tend to have strong will. So those that want something badly enough can force it down the throats of those who don't have a strong enough will to make the effort to say no.

We are all too absorbed in our own day to day existence to recognize a threat to our liberties.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:49 am
by K.Snyder
Bruv;1384747 wrote: Then why didn't you say just that ?I did, in far fewer words with "The concern...would be for those that cannot distinguish between democracy and oppression"

Bruv;1384747 wrote: Is an oppressive democracy, a true democracy ?A democracy, when using it's true definition, is not the cause of oppression. It's the people within that systematically commits suicide by their own ignorance. Perhaps much like the benefits of a competitive market the people need to have their brains challenged in order for them to succeed in the art of understanding public policy and it's effects. Positions of power has an inherent desire to keep the public uninformed, or mislead at that, in order to retain their power and ultimately please themselves into "sublime bliss", whatever the hell that is.

A democracy is a syndicate not an end to a philosophy of thought that has a history suggesting will last forever.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:49 am
by LarsMac
The ideal of democracy assumes that all the people will be smart enough, wise enough, to recognize the needs of the society, and to make informed, if not even enlightened decisions about how the community, or nation must act.

In truth, as Flopstock says, we are all far too absorbed in the day to day existence. We haven't time to concern ourselves with the tasks of running a country. We appointed, through elections, people we hope are able to manage all the big stuff.

The Republic has that attraction to it.

History has shown that even the folks we think are smart enough tend to be too self-absorbed, or too greedy to truly devote themselves to the tasks to which we have appointed them.

They, instead, spend their time tending their own affair, and blaming the opposition for the problems the government has been unable to resolve.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:22 pm
by K.Snyder
LarsMac;1384762 wrote: The ideal of democracy assumes that all the people will be smart enough, wise enough, to recognize the needs of the society, and to make informed, if not even enlightened decisions about how the community, or nation must act.

In truth, as Flopstock says, we are all far too absorbed in the day to day existence. We haven't time to concern ourselves with the tasks of running a country. We appointed, through elections, people we hope are able to manage all the big stuff.

The Republic has that attraction to it.

History has shown that even the folks we think are smart enough tend to be too self-absorbed, or too greedy to truly devote themselves to the tasks to which we have appointed them.

They, instead, spend their time tending their own affair, and blaming the opposition for the problems the government has been unable to resolve.Adam Smith's invisible hand seems to reach in and dispel the thought elections were ever within the scope of our beneficial ends...

Broadly speaking, Smith followed the views of his mentor, Francis Hutcheson of the University of Glasgow, who divided moral philosophy into four parts: Ethics and Virtue; Private rights and Natural liberty; Familial rights (called Economics); and State and Individual rights (called Politics).

More specifically, Smith divided moral systems into:

Categories of the nature of morality. These included Propriety, Prudence, and Benevolence.

Categories of the motive of morality. These included Self-love, Reason, and Sentiment.

Hutcheson had abandoned the psychological view of moral philosophy, claiming that motives were too fickle to be used as a basis for a philosophical system. Instead, he hypothesised a dedicated "sixth sense" to explain morality. This idea, to be taken up by David Hume (see Hume's A Treatise of Human Nature), claimed that man is pleased by utility.

Smith rejected his teacher's reliance on this special sense. Starting in about 1741, Smith set on the task of using Hume's experimental method (appealing to human experience) to replace the specific moral sense with a pluralistic approach to morality based on a multitude of psychological motives. The Theory of Moral Sentiments begins with the following assertion:

How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner. That we often derive sorrow from the sorrows of others, is a matter of fact too obvious to require any instances to prove it; for this sentiment, like all the other original passions of human nature, is by no means confined to the virtuous or the humane, though they perhaps may feel it with the most exquisite sensibility. The greatest ruffian, the most hardened violator of the laws of society, is not altogether without it.

Smith departed from the "moral sense" tradition of Shaftesbury, Hutcheson, and Hume, as the principle of sympathy takes the place of that organ. "Sympathy" was the term Smith used for the feeling of these moral sentiments. It was the feeling with the passions of others. It operated through a logic of mirroring, in which a spectator imaginatively reconstructed the experience of the person he watches:

As we have no immediate experience of what other men feel, we can form no idea of the manner in which they are affected, but by conceiving what we ourselves should feel in the like situation. Though our brother is on the rack, as long as we ourselves are at our ease, our senses will never inform us of what he suffers. They never did, and never can, carry us beyond our own person, and it is by the imagination only that we can form any conception of what are his sensations. Neither can that faculty help us to this any other way, than by representing to us what would be our own, if we were in his case. It is the impressions of our own senses only, not those of his, which our imaginations copy. By the imagination, we place ourselves in his situation.

Sympathy arose from an innate desire to identify with the emotions of others. It could lead people to strive to maintain good relations with their fellow human beings and provide the basis both for specific benevolent acts and for the general social order. Thus was formed within the breast the psychological basis for the desire to obey natural laws. The Theory of Moral Sentiments culminated in man as self-interested and self-commanded. Individual freedom, according to Smith, was rooted in self-reliance, the ability of an individual to pursue his self-interest while commanding himself based on the principles of natural law.

However, Smith rejected the idea that Man was capable of forming moral judgements beyond a limited sphere of activity, again centered around his own self-interest:

The administration of the great system of the universe ... the care of the universal happiness of all rational and sensible beings, is the business of God and not of man. To man is allotted a much humbler department, but one much more suitable to the weakness of his powers, and to the narrowness of his comprehension: the care of his own happiness, of that of his family, his friends, his country.... But though we are ... endowed with a very strong desire of those ends, it has been entrusted to the slow and uncertain determinations of our reason to find out the proper means of bringing them about. Nature has directed us to the greater part of these by original and immediate instincts. Hunger, thirst, the passion which unites the two sexes, and the dread of pain, prompt us to apply those means for their own sakes, and without any consideration of their tendency to those beneficent ends which the great Director of nature intended to produce by them.

It was in the TMS that Smith first referred to the "invisible hand" to describe the apparent benefits to society of people behaving in their own interests. Smith writes (6th ed. p. 350):

... In spite of their natural selfishness and rapacity, though they mean only their own conveniency, though the sole end which they propose ... be the gratification of their own vain and insatiable desires, they divide with the poor the produce of all their improvements. They are led by an invisible hand to make nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life, which would have been made, had the earth been divided into equal portions among all its inhabitants, and thus without intending it, without knowing it, advance the interest of the society.

In a published lecture, Vernon L. Smith further argued that Theory of Moral Sentiments and Wealth of Nations together encompassed:

"one behavioral axiom, 'the propensity to truck, barter, and exchange one thing for another,' where the objects of trade I will interpret to include not only goods, but also gifts, assistance, and favors out of sympathy ... whether it is goods or favors that are exchanged, they bestow gains from trade that humans seek relentlessly in all social transactions. Thus, Adam Smith's single axiom, broadly interpreted ... is sufficient to characterize a major portion of the human social and cultural enterprise. It explains why human nature appears to be simultaneously self-regarding and other-regarding." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory ... Sentiments

Interesting man that Smith

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:21 pm
by Bryn Mawr
LarsMac;1384750 wrote: What most countries have, today, is not democracy.

That we keep using that term to describe the government of today is laughable.


Hear Hear - I concur.

If it wasn't so damnable I'd be laughing :-(

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:25 pm
by Bryn Mawr
flopstock;1384753 wrote: A democracy is only as strong as the will of the people. And folks these days don't tend to have strong will. So those that want something badly enough can force it down the throats of those who don't have a strong enough will to make the effort to say no.

We are all too absorbed in our own day to day existence to recognize a threat to our liberties.


It goes far further than that, those with the will and the position have twisted the system so far that the only way back is revolution - there is no mechanism left where "the man in the street", no matter how strong his will or how many he is, can evolve the current system into a democratic form.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:37 pm
by Bruv
LarsMac;1384762 wrote: The ideal of democracy assumes that all the people will be smart enough, wise enough, to recognize the needs of the society, and to make informed, if not even enlightened decisions about how the community, or nation must act.


I would say almost the opposite.

The people vote mostly selfishly for their own agendas, the person of trust that gets elected then altruistically without fear or favour, serves the best interest of everybody, sacrificing his own career and future for the future of his country.



Or that's how it used to work didn't it ?

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:09 pm
by Bryn Mawr
Bruv;1384796 wrote: I would say almost the opposite.

The people vote mostly selfishly for their own agendas, the person of trust that gets elected then altruistically without fear or favour, serves the best interest of everybody, sacrificing his own career and future for the future of his country.



Or that's how it used to work didn't it ?


The idea of the Leader as the servant of the country was, sadly, always laughable.

I've always been of the opinion that anyone who puts himself forward for election to office should be disbarred from ever holding it.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:17 pm
by Bruv
Must agree wholeheartedly.

Same goes for Union leaders etc.

It was never like this in the days when the leader was pushed forward because he could put two words together.

Men with a passion backbone and purpose.

Nowadays everybody is a professional career Politician or Union leader with silver tongues and an eye on their pensions.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:46 pm
by LarsMac
Bryn Mawr;1384815 wrote: The idea of the Leader as the servant of the country was, sadly, always laughable.

I've always been of the opinion that anyone who puts himself forward for election to office should be disbarred from ever holding it.


Absolutely.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:08 am
by gmc
K.Snyder;1384771 wrote: Adam Smith's invisible hand seems to reach in and dispel the thought elections were ever within the scope of our beneficial ends...

The Theory of Moral Sentiments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting man that Smith


I trust you read the man himself rather than people's interpretations of what he was saying. You can read copies of it on-line, surprisingly readable for a book of that era - he has a lot to say about the former colonies.

As to democracy and freedom that has always been taken from below not granted from above. "we the people" need to grab the politicians by the balls and remind them who runs the place but it usually takes some crises to stir people up and it's also a generational thing, one generation forgets and doesn't understand what the earlier generation has been through. The protesters of the sixties and seventies are now grandparents.

Democracy, is it a facade ?

Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:15 am
by K.Snyder
gmc;1384848 wrote: I trust you read the man himself rather than people's interpretations of what he was saying. You can read copies of it on-line, surprisingly readable for a book of that era - he has a lot to say about the former colonies.

As to democracy and freedom that has always been taken from below not granted from above. "we the people" need to grab the politicians by the balls and remind them who runs the place but it usually takes some crises to stir people up and it's also a generational thing, one generation forgets and doesn't understand what the earlier generation has been through. The protesters of the sixties and seventies are now grandparents.I prefer to read from the old fashioned paper book. Alot more comfortable too.

In fact, I have a copy of the Wealth of Nations on it's journey to my local library specifically for myself. Checking it now it has of yet to arrive

Wealth of nations / Adam Smith.

by Smith, Adam, 1723-1790.

Amherst, N.Y. : Prometheus Books, 1991.

I presume you have, among others, but have you read it? Any thoughts if you had?