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I don't know who this guy is but his story really choked me up. I wonder why he couldn't have just moved somewhere else.

Soap actor Nick Santino commits suicide over dog grief - Monsters and Critics

I seriously think he had other problems, as much as he could be attached to his dog, there must have been an easier solution.

It was his right to do as he pleased. Ya know when you see a movie where some animal is present and appears out of place by hundreds or thousands of years? Well that's what pets are, too many of us are just too complacent to see the reality of the situation. Too bad for the dog, he lived in the wrong era.

I expect this trend of outlawing pets breed by breed will eventually take hold and become so complicated that all pets will be outlawed in the end. I'd prefer people become aware of their actions myself, but at this stage I can't give that prospect much hope.

Why do you want all pets outlawed?

AnneBoleyn;1385207 wrote: Why do you want all pets outlawed?Owning pets is immoral IMV, they have no life of their own. I have a dog living with us because I'm not the only vote in the house. I should also say that I came to this realization after adopting the dog. FWIW, she is treated very well.

They have no lives of their own. Huh? Whose life do they have?

AnneBoleyn;1385211 wrote: They have no lives of their own. Huh? Whose life do they have?That which their owner dictates.

Cats & dogs traded in their freedoms for three squares daily. Cats literally forced their company on unsuspecting humans, & dogs begged for domestication. They made their beds, now they can lay on them, preferably near our feet. Go fetch something.

You own pets?

2 lovely cats. They do unlovely things like throwing up fur balls & making stinkys that I clean up for them. They have ripped up most of the chairs & couches. They make up for this by...............well, maybe they don't fully make up for it. I serve them food. I help them in every possible way. They own me. They get multiple rewards. My reward is finding them extra cute & heart-warming.

Ahso!;1385187 wrote: It was his right to do as he pleased.
What.............. kill himself ?

I would say he was unwell, and needed some sort of help.

Too bad for the dog, he lived in the wrong era................
The dog lived in the wrong area, not the wrong era.

AnneBoleyn;1385218 wrote: 2 lovely cats. They do unlovely things like throwing up fur balls & making stinkys that I clean up for them.You sure you're not cleaning that stuff for you? You think they'd tidy up if you didn't? AnneBoleyn;1385218 wrote: I serve them food. I help them in every possible way.Do you? What do they need help with? They couldn't survive without you?AnneBoleyn;1385218 wrote: They own me. They get multiple rewards.What rewards do they get? AnneBoleyn;1385218 wrote: My reward is finding them extra cute & heart-warming.So your payoff is emotional? They get to be cute for you.

Bruv;1385220 wrote: What.............. kill himself ?

yes

They are the only cats I ever met who don't cover up the evidence of their feces. That proves to me that they feel very safe here. Otherwise, they'd cover it up so I wouldn't find them, hunt them down & eat them. They feel secure that I won't eat them. That is their reward--I won't eat them. They need help with opening cans. They have no thumbs. I do. I help them. They are not just cute for me, it is god-given cute that they possess with or without my admiration. Feral cats live about 6 years. My cats live over 19 years. Are you a member of PETA, Ahso!?

The dog lived in the wrong area, not the wrong era.
It's both, actually, Bruv, because in this era in this area we don't seem to like pitbulls, of which this dog was one.

AnneBoleyn;1385224 wrote: It's both, actually, Bruv, because in this era in this area we don't seem to like pitbulls, of which this dog was one.


The pet might have stood a chance in a rural area, if it were not for insecure people taking to four legged body guards in crowded cities.

I grew up thinking pitbulls were nice. All the bad publicity they receive now have me scared of them. Probably more of a case of bad owners rather than bad doggies.

Nope, not a member of PETA. The question of whether or not owning pets is moral is subjective since the pets can't express themselves. If you find it moral, we disagree, that's all. I would say though that if a person cannot empathize with their pet their arguments are not based on reality.

Snooze made the argument that she'd love to be able to sleep 16 hours a day and be cared for as her cats are. Lets be realistic here, if snooze had a child or partner who slept 16 hours a day she'd be concerned of mental health issues or lack of motivation, but not so with her cats and I suppose that's due to an inability to tap into the cat for selfish reasons of gain for herself.

Now don't get me wrong, I think we all need to be selfish but if that behavior interferes with the freedom of other living things it's immoral IMV. You and snooze and a few others here appear to disagree with that. No biggie, I'm simply calling a spade a spade.

Here's a spade--how do you feel, Ahso! when you realize you have just interfered with a bug's enjoyment of a serene life by accidentally stepping on it, thus ending it's pursuit of happiness & independence from humans?

History shows that cats domesticated themselves, by forcing themselves on the company of humans. In return for gentle purring, which health studies prove lowers human blood-pressure, they get food, shelter & protection. Dogs have also been willing partners to humans throughout recorded time despite being pack animals. These animals have deliberately gone out of their way, out of what you consider a normal life for them, to "hypnotize" humans to be their willing slaves & slavishly care for them. I think our needs, our addiction to them, is knowingly caused by them. It's gotten to the point where we are deluded into thinking we can't live without them. Obviously, they have very powerful minds & we are in a trance.

PS--pets do express themselves---very well & very obviously.

AnneBoleyn;1385230 wrote: Here's a spade--how do you feel, Ahso! when you realize you have just interfered with a bug's enjoyment of a serene life by accidentally stepping on it, thus ending it's pursuit of happiness & independence from humans?I don't walk around trying to avoid every insect, if I happen to step on them, oh well, that's one way Natural Selection operates. I'm fine with that, it's natural.

AnneBoleyn;1385230 wrote: History shows that cats domesticated themselves, by forcing themselves on the company of humans. In return for gentle purring, which health studies prove lowers human blood-pressure, they get food, shelter & protection. Dogs have also been willing partners to humans throughout recorded time despite being pack animals. These animals have deliberately gone out of their way, out of what you consider a normal life for them, to "hypnotize" humans to be their willing slaves & slavishly care for them. I think our needs, our addiction to them, is knowingly caused by them. It's gotten to the point where we are deluded into thinking we can't live without them. Obviously, they have very powerful minds & we are in a trance.You honestly believe this is all a deliberate relationship on the part of all parties?

When all is equal it's fair. When humans were living in the wild cohabitation with certain other species was a part of a natural existence, that isn't the case any longer. We control every aspect of their existence. Permit Natural Selection to run its course.

AnneBoleyn;1385231 wrote: PS--pets do express themselves---very well & very obviously.By your interpretation of their expressions, nothing else.

Even when humans lived in the wild, we were never equals with cats & dogs, we always had superior power to control the destinies of most animals that came to our attention. Our thumbs, brains, language & tool-making cause us to be opponents to be reckoned with. They can outrun us, but we can corner them. There are universal signs of happiness & contentment Ahso! My interpretation is based on knowing them as individuals & understanding common needs. When a cat drops a toy at my feet, looks up at me, I know this cat wants to play & make merry. When they look at their empty food dish, then start the head-rubbing on human legs it's not hard to know what they want. And dogs are even more obnoxious making their needs known. A dog, i.e., that brings it's leash to you is saying at least 2 things: Out, & poop. These animals are quite skilled at making their needs known. Funny thing, a cat never asked my permission to have the freedom to borrow the car & attend college. Duh. That stuff is just not necessary for their happiness, I'm interpreting.

AnneBoleyn;1385237 wrote: Even when humans lived in the wild, we were never equals with cats & dogs, we always had superior power to control the destinies of most animals that came to our attention. Our thumbs, brains, language & tool-making cause us to be opponents to be reckoned with. They can outrun us, but we can corner them. There are universal signs of happiness & contentment Ahso! My interpretation is based on knowing them as individuals & understanding common needs. When a cat drops a toy at my feet, looks up at me, I know this cat wants to play & make merry. When they look at their empty food dish, then start the head-rubbing on human legs it's not hard to know what they want. And dogs are even more obnoxious making their needs known. A dog, i.e., that brings it's leash to you is saying at least 2 things: Out, & poop. These animals are quite skilled at making their needs known. Funny thing, a cat never asked my permission to have the freedom to borrow the car & attend college. Duh. That stuff is just not necessary for their happiness, I'm interpreting.So you get to feel good about yourself and your cats get to make you feel good about yourself.

Your cats have been denied the expression of all their natural instincts because you bought (or adopted or bred) them, locked them up in your residence, dictated their existence all because you believed that's what makes them happy. So when your cat shows its willingness to accept its situation because it too wants to survive, you interpret that as a declaration of consent from the animal?

Ahso! Gosh, I feel so bad now I might have to end it all just like that man who couldn't live with cutting off his dog's life & so had to make himself extinct!

So when your cat shows its willingness to accept its situation because it too wants to survive, you interpret that as a declaration of consent from the animal?
Well, obviously I do. When you first described this, I thought you were talking about marriage!

And, I tell you for the third time, I think, that it was cats who forced themselves on us first, not the other way around. They moved into our tents & caves, damn hangers-on, glomming on to share in our luxurious existence. These deceitful no-goods stare at us, then proceed to seize our hearts. Well, they got what they came for. Giving up their flea-ridden, starving lives in exchange for comfort. Bet they eat bon-bons & watch soap-operas all day, those lazy no-goods.

AnneBoleyn;1385244 wrote:



And, I tell you for the third time, I think, that it was cats who forced themselves on us first, not the other way around. They moved into our tents & caves, damn hangers-on, glomming on to share in our luxurious existence. .


Anne, you are absolutely correct.

Cats - History of the Domestication of Cats

Ahso Is not only completely wrong but Is once again re-writing the Spot speak on previous threads.

There are an awful lot of homeless kids out there, why not devote all that good will of yours to some of them? They're longing for some shelter and love too, you know.

Ahso!;1385247 wrote: There are an awful lot of homeless kids out there, why not devote all that good will of yours to some of them? They're longing for some shelter and love too, you know. Why don't you ?

Oscar to Ahso!:

Why don't you ?
Oscar, now it's my turn to say to you "you are absolutely correct."

What's "spot speak"?

AnneBoleyn;1385249 wrote: Oscar to Ahso!:

Oscar, now it's my turn to say to you "you are absolutely correct."

What's "spot speak"?


Spot speak Is when Ahso takes posts written by Spot on the same subject In threads prior to this one and re-writes Spot's words.

The two of you have decided to go out to the playground to play little girl games I see. Have fun!

Ahso!;1385252 wrote: The two of you have decided to go out to the playground to play little girl games I see. Have fun!


Awwww liddle boy dont wanna play any more

At least spot doesn't have an avatar that looks like it's out of a low budget sci-fi movie.:sneaky:

SnoozeAgain;1385254 wrote: At least spot doesn't have an avatar that looks like it's out of a low budget sci-fi movie.:sneaky:


And one from the reject department at that.

Snooze --- your avator is ?

Oscar --- your Avator is ?

Wow - have to go - I smell dog Sh**.

Patsy

Patsy Warnick;1385263 wrote: Snooze --- your avator is ?

Oscar --- your Avator is ?

Wow - have to go - I smell dog Sh**.

Patsy


You're right Patsy and I can only apologise for my behaviour.

It was childish of snooze and I.... what can I say ?

Of course his avatar doesn't look like a cut price sci fi flick.

Patsy Warnick;1385263 wrote: Snooze --- your avator is ?

Oscar --- your Avator is ?

Wow - have to go - I smell dog Sh**.

Patsy


Take care of that pink eye while you're at it.

Your article quotes the New York Post but leaves out the happy ending from the original article for some reason.Rocco has been cremated, and friends said Santino’s remains will be, too, and they will be reunited. “One way or another, their ashes will be together forever,” Sarnoff said.

Soap-opera actor Nick Santino committed suicide after beloved dog euthanized - NYPOST.com



It's hard to get a story printed in some parts of the world if there's no happy ending to tie it up with.

A happy ending .....almost teared up then thinking of old yella.

fuzzywuzzy;1385338 wrote: A happy ending .....almost teared up then thinking of old yella.


I don't think Santino had the option of getting a replacement pup by the sound of it. I quite like the idea of equating the building’s management with rabies though.

I think this man was probably emotionally unstable to begin with and the neighbours bullied him to this end. I think they have a bit to answer for .

It could be argued that Santino's final decision and act was altruistic rather than one of victimization.

Ahso!;1385233 wrote:

You honestly believe this is all a deliberate relationship on the part of all parties?

....................When humans were living in the wild cohabitation with certain other species was a part of a natural existence, that isn't the case any longer. We control every aspect of their existence. Permit Natural Selection to run its course.


What if you are witnessing evolution in action ?

There are many incidences of beneficial co relationships in nature.

Not many are deliberate, they just evolve.

Domesticated cats and dogs have done what is best for the survival of their species, they benefit by surviving and man benefits too.

Many wild species are on the verge of extinction, so it was a wise move to get domesticated.

Ahso... All the time you own and possess a domesticated dog, you are a hypocrite.

How many threads are you going to repeat the same old Spot speak over and over and over?

Bruv;1385369 wrote: What if you are witnessing evolution in action ?That's the question, isn't it. Is domestication of animals part of the evolutionary process? YZ and I touched on that in an other thread.

Bruv;1385369 wrote: There are many incidences of beneficial co relationships in nature.

Not many are deliberate, they just evolve.

Domesticated cats and dogs have done what is best for the survival of their species, they benefit by surviving and man benefits too.I think the question to ask ourselves is whether or not pets are vital to our survival. They're not AFAICC. The other consideration IMV is whether or not the animal gets to be what it has evolved to? My answer to that is obviously no because the animal cannot survive even partly on its own.

Bruv;1385369 wrote: Many wild species are on the verge of extinction, so it was a wise move to get domesticated.Well, I don't really think we can say that the animals we call pets "got themselves" domesticated in any deliberate sense any more than cows got themselves put in the slaughter line. These creatures lack the brain capacity to do that to any extent consciously. Also on one hand you're reminding me to consider that this may be Natural Selection and then on the other hand you yourself are saying we need to control animals so they don't become extinct.

Look I grew up with pets my entire life and they are as cute to me as they are to you, however, during the recent past I've become more familiar with evolution and have exchanged views with people who have caused me to reconsider certain human behaviors, traditions and myths.

Since this is a discussion forum some subjects and opinions are going to feel uncomfortable, but that's all a part of the process of learning to communicate with others who we disagree with.

Ahso!;1385375 wrote: That's the question, isn't it. Is domestication of animals part of the evolutionary process? YZ and I touched on that in an other thread.

I think the question to ask ourselves is whether or not pets are vital to our survival.
Not our survival, but considering the other animal species life expectancy, getting yourself domesticated is a clever move. Clever evolutionary, not clever by choice.

Well, I don't really think we can say that the animals we call pets "got themselves" domesticated in any deliberate sense any more than cows got themselves put in the slaughter line.
Giraffes didn't "get themselves" long necks "in any deliberate sense"

Evolution doesn't work like that does it ?

These creatures lack the brain capacity to do that to any extent consciously. Also on one hand you're reminding me to consider that this may be Natural Selection and then on the other hand you yourself are saying we need to control animals so they don't become extinct.
The animals don't consciously do anything, and I am not saying we need to do anything to "control" animals to avoid their extinction. Natural selection or evolution has partnered them with mankind in a symbiotic, mutually beneficial relationship.

We get our cute animals, and the animals get to survive.............while their wild counterparts get squeezed into extinction

Look I grew up with pets my entire life and they are as cute to me as they are to you, however, during the recent past I've become more familiar with evolution and have exchanged views with people who have caused me to reconsider certain human behaviors, traditions and myths.


I am the least animally type person you might ever meet, had one family dog my whole life, and that was for the kids. I believe unless you want to shape your life around your animal. you should not have them.

Bruv;1385377 wrote: Not our survival, but considering the other animal species life expectancy, getting yourself domesticated is a clever move. Clever evolutionary, not clever by choice.

Giraffes didn't "get themselves" long necks "in any deliberate sense"

Evolution doesn't work like that does it ?

The animals don't consciously do anything, and I am not saying we need to do anything to "control" animals to avoid their extinction. Natural selection or evolution has partnered them with mankind in a symbiotic, mutually beneficial relationship.

We get our cute animals, and the animals get to survive.............while their wild counterparts get squeezed into extinction

I am the least animally type person you might ever meet, had one family dog my whole life, and that was for the kids. I believe unless you want to shape your life around your animal. you should not have them.Okay Bruv, if I understand your argument sufficiently, you're claiming domestication is a Behavioral Adaptive Trait which has developed as part of both the human condition and that of the pet? Do we agree there?

I think the question to ask ourselves is whether or not pets are vital to our survival.


They ought to come in handy when there's nothing else to eat. :yh_rotfl

(don't tell my pets I said that )

Ahso!;1385378 wrote: Okay Bruv, if I understand your argument sufficiently, you're claiming domestication is a Behavioral Adaptive Trait which has developed as part of both the human condition and that of the pet? Do we agree there?
'Behavioral Adaptive Trait' as the phrase if you wish, or evolution, both parties have changed to accommodate each other, the animals more, so as to ensure their survival.

Bruv;1385392 wrote: 'Behavioral Adaptive Trait' as the phrase if you wish, or evolution, both parties have changed to accommodate each other, the animals more, so as to ensure their survival.I'd like to try to narrow this down to something specific so we can discuss the how and why of your claim.

Would you say this change is biological or neurological? You are claiming this to be an adaptation and not a mutation of some sort, correct?

On the surface, I think to say something is a product of Natural Selection it must have evolved naturally in order for the organism to remain viable and fit in its habitat. Many pets don't even meet the first part of that test as they were selectively bred by humans, I have trouble extrapolating that process to call it "natural forces". Your argument appears to claim that since humans are the product of Natural Selection then any action they take can be construed as Natural Selection by extension. I don't think that has ever been put forward as a viable theory before.

Another question we have to wrestle with is: what is a pet? are you including only dogs and cats? Many people keep what are called exotic pets. So the question becomes: Is it your argument that all animals have acquired this adaptive trait of domestication or only those humans deem as pets? It gets rather complicated if we cannot narrow this down somehow.