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I don't think we have any French members - but I'd love to hear comments from everyone in the UK. Is this worrisome? Do you care? What does the future hold? Or...just no big deal?

THE leader of France’s ruling party has privately admitted that Sunday’s referendum on the European constitution will result in a “no” vote, throwing Europe into turmoil.

“The thing is lost,” Nicolas Sarkozy told French ministers during an ill-tempered meeting. “It will be a little ‘no’ or a big ‘no’,” he was quoted as telling Jean-Pierre Raffarin, the Prime Minister, whom he accused of leading a feeble campaign.

Although Europe would be thrown into disarray, the Government would be greatly relieved if M Sarkozy were right.

Ministers have privately told The Times that Britain is prepared to ditch its commitment to a referendum if France, or the Netherlands next Wednesday, vote against the constitution. They believe that if the French say “no”, President Chirac will have to declare the constitution dead or promise a renegotiation.

Because French voters consider that the treaty has already given too many concessions to Britain, ministers see no likelihood of the Government being able to put a renegotiated treaty to the country.

Tony Blair would instead have to use Britain’s imminent EU presidency to try to save those parts of the constitution that can be enforced without a treaty. That could mean that mechanical changes, such as ending the six-month rotating presidency of the EU, could go through.

The mood of pessimism that descended on the French Government after ten successive polls showing the “no” camp leading was echoed by Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, the former French President, who drafted the constitution. He blamed the failures of the “yes” campaign on the half-heartedness of France’s leaders.

“Our current leaders are of course believers in the idea of Europe but in their heart of hearts they are not men and women who are inspired by a European feeling,” he told a French newspaper.

President Chirac will go on television tonight to deliver a last-ditch appeal to his country to resist the temptation to vote “no” and trigger a crisis for the whole European Union.

The rest of the story is at: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 72,00.html

The vote is on adopting the proposed EU Constitution. The Treaty isn't at issue. The no vote isn't going to bring an end to the EU, or reduce its membership, it just leaves day-to-day EU Government business harder to transact. There will be more official languages to publish everything in, and more vetos, until an alternative to the proposed EU Constitution is adopted. It's an inconvenience, but not a collapse. I quite liked the text of the Constitution as it stood, I'll be sorry if the French Referendum puts it onto a back-burner.

Personally, and I think millions in the UK may well agree on this one, I would be delighted if the frogs vote "Non!" and then eventually the EU completely disintegrates!

You feel that the latter could be a consequence of the former? I see them as unrelated circumstances, myself.

Them Frogs always leaping up the wrong leaf

The Luxembourg PM summed the situation up pretty well when he said :

If there’s a no vote Europe will carry on, if there’s a yes vote Europe will continue.

posted by john8pies

Personally, and I think millions in the UK may well agree on this one, I would be delighted if the frogs vote "Non!" and then eventually the EU completely disintegrates!


I've yet to see any opponents come up with a viable alternative that doesn't involve working with the eec. Yeah let's leave the EU so that we still have to abide by their rules to trade with them but have absolutely no say in their format, really constructive, also wave bye bye to any inward investement from abroad-no more nissan factory on teeside or toyota in derbyshire lets just be a quaint anachronism on the arse end of europe-an irrelevance living on past glories. Try asking the businesses that actually export to the eu what they think about leaving and doing business in the EU. This hystyria about us losing our national identity is just that, hysterical nonsense. It's not perfect but has made a tremendous difference in europe and to our own economy.

Thanks for all the replies!

try these links as well

Q&A: The French EU referendum

http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,73 ... 35,00.html

Why Europe's not working

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 35,00.html

I'm voting NO.I did not want the EU or EEC in the first place.

capt_buzzard wrote: I'm voting NO.I did not want the EU or EEC in the first place.Good Lord, Captain, and there was me thinking the subsidies and the grants had brought the Republic out of penury. Would the place be so prosperous if you'd never been in?

spot wrote: Good Lord, Captain, and there was me thinking the subsidies and the grants had brought the Republic out of penury. Would the place be so prosperous if you'd never been in?There would have got the dough some other place. Look what the Celtic Tiger did for us. Who needs the EU dictators.

Will Europe ever be able to compete with the US, China or an economically united South America if it reverts to being a collection of little countries/feifdoms?

posted by david813

Will Europe ever be able to compete with the US, China or an economically united South America if it reverts to being a collection of little countries/feifdoms?


No. It's a natural economic grouping despite all the differences.

posted by cap'n buzzard

There would have got the dough some other place. Look what the Celtic Tiger did for us. Who needs the EU dictators.


Where from? Come on cap'n what's your alternative.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of the EU, am ambivalent about the constitution but all the critics never come up with a viable alternative. Debates about free trade have been going on for hundreds of years in one form or another-the basic principle is good free trade woith a social conscience is what most people come down to when they sit and think about it as opposed to the self centred policies you tend to see sometimes. ripping off your customers and suppliers is ultimately bad business and has proven to be so time after time.

gmc wrote: posted by david813





No. It's a natural economic grouping despite all the differences.



posted by cap'n buzzard





Where from? Come on cap'n what's your alternative.



Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of the EU, am ambivalent about the constitution but all the critics never come up with a viable alternative. Debates about free trade have been going on for hundreds of years in one form or another-the basic principle is good free trade woith a social conscience is what most people come down to when they sit and think about it as opposed to the self centred policies you tend to see sometimes. ripping off your customers and suppliers is ultimately bad business and has proven to be so time after time.You guys in the UK are not in the Eurozone, nor on the receiving end of the France-German bosses. Your govenment doesn't trust them. Why should we.