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With the guilty verdict of the gruesome abortion butcher, the halls of the just have been very tense the past few weeks.

As a pro-choice advocate, I am sorry to say my entire set of arguments have been proven false except for one.....population control.

"Choice". Destroyed with the morning after pill / Plan B.

Incest. Plan B / waiverable for the health of the mother.

Rape. Plan B / Morning After Pill.

Alley "coat hanger" abortion....numbers are way to low to provide a serious discussion.

Health of the mother. Waiverable medical recommendation./ Again, numbers are too low to warrant consideration.

Population is my only remaining argument and the only one that is logical. I am now pro-control, but my friends are still very upset with this despite their complete lack of argument to the contrary.

It never ceases to amaze me that even the brightest minds and thinkers can become so rigidly attached to a stance that even blatant proof will not set them free. How shallow and helpless this must make them feel.

Disingenuous bullsh!t. I'm sure you'll soon find reasons against abortion for population control (which has never been a good reason for me btw). You entered this forum anti-choice & so you will remain despite your protestations & outward lies to the contrary. F.U. How shallow & hopeless you are, how unbright, how unthinking. How rigid. Yet, you masquerade in your blog as a normal person. Guess you're a sociopath.

halfway;1427194 wrote: With the guilty verdict of the gruesome abortion butcher, the halls of the just have been very tense the past few weeks.

As a pro-choice advocate, I am sorry to say my entire set of arguments have been proven false except for one.....population control.

"Choice". Destroyed with the morning after pill / Plan B.

Incest. Plan B / waiverable for the health of the mother.

Rape. Plan B / Morning After Pill.

Alley "coat hanger" abortion....numbers are way to low to provide a serious discussion.

Health of the mother. Waiverable medical recommendation./ Again, numbers are too low to warrant consideration.

Population is my only remaining argument and the only one that is logical. I am now pro-control, but my friends are still very upset with this despite their complete lack of argument to the contrary.

It never ceases to amaze me that even the brightest minds and thinkers can become so rigidly attached to a stance that even blatant proof will not set them free. How shallow and helpless this must make them feel.Thanks

Quit jumping to your own pre-conceived conclusions.

Help me out with some better arguments because I am really struggling with some of my longer held beliefs. I believe a woman's right to choose is sacred, but my arguments are becoming emotional as most of the logical arguments have been proven false.

Calling me names again? What is wrong with you?







Help me out Anne...before you lose your head.

If you believe a woman's right to control her own person & to choose for herself her own destiny then that is your answer.

Otherwise, you don't believe your own words. If it is her choice it is not your choice despite your inner arguments & your "struggles".

AnneBoleyn;1427201 wrote: If you believe a woman's right to control her own person & to choose for herself her own destiny then that is your answer.


I'm looking for some better arguments. "Faith" is one thing, but a simple belief usually requires substantial fact, opinion, or personal experience.

Why are you so full of hate when someone presents or asks something you don't like? How do you learn anything new with a mind that is quick to judge and especially with malice towards others?

Wow. You are like many I deal with at the women's center that get insane over fetus discussions. Wow.

It is because a woman's reproductive rights are none of your goddamned business, so lay off. Maybe for population control we should-----to you? Do you want women deciding what's right for men and their own bodies? Must go for now.

AnneBoleyn;1427205 wrote: It is because a woman's reproductive rights are none of your goddamned business, so lay off. Maybe for population control we should-----to you? Do you want women deciding what's right for men and their own bodies? Must go for now.


So the entire argument is up to women only?

That type of logic would state that drug laws should only be made by drug addicts.

The military should only make all military decisions (including social issues).

The oil companies should only make oil decisions.

Rapists should only make laws regarding rape.

Gun owners should be the only one's allowed to make gun laws.

That is absurd Anne...I think you know that. I cannot in good conscience or any intellect use that as the sole argument. Help me out here.

halfway;1427203 wrote: I'm looking for some better arguments. "Faith" is one thing, but a simple belief usually requires substantial fact, opinion, or personal experience.

Why are you so full of hate when someone presents or asks something you don't like? How do you learn anything new with a mind that is quick to judge and especially with malice towards others?

Wow. You are like many I deal with at the women's center that get insane over fetus discussions. Wow.


Actually the one thing faith does not require is substantial fact. If you could prove god existed you would not need faith nor would you need any of the various religions that cause so much conflict in the world. If you choose to believe a woman's right to choose is sacred that is all you need. If you choose to believe that life begins at conception that is your prerogative it is not however your prerogative to impose that belief on anyone else, especially when it flies in tne face of substantial fact.

If you choose to believe that a woman should not use contraception that is your choice and if your wife or whatever agrees ( I don't know your sex I assume you are male) with you then all is well it is not your right to impose that belief on others who do not share that religious belief. Indeed I would argue that your spouse can end the relationship at any time should he or she desire to do so.

If you need religious belief to give you a moral compass you have my sympathy and understanding and I hope some day you will be able to think for yourself and make your own decisions. You live in a secular society so you have the freedom to choose, t Thank your god that you don't live in a religious one where praying to the wrong god can get you killed.

Gosnell Clinic has nothing to do with this. Not a thing.

halfway;1427206 wrote: So the entire argument is up to women only?

That type of logic would state that drug laws should only be made by drug addicts.

The military should only make all military decisions (including social issues).

The oil companies should only make oil decisions.

Rapists should only make laws regarding rape.

Gun owners should be the only one's allowed to make gun laws.

That is absurd Anne...I think you know that. I cannot in good conscience or any intellect use that as the sole argument. Help me out here.


I have no intention of helping you. Your arguments are strawmen, they are the absurdities. Like slavery, certain things are not up for debate, although slaves remained slaves while white men discussed & debated & fought over compromise. Our bodies, our choice. It is that simple to me. I have nothing further to say to you on this, the debate is over.

AnneBoleyn;1427229 wrote: Gosnell Clinic has nothing to do with this. Not a thing.


Mass murder of innocent people. To me is the same thing.

As in the cartoon subtitle.

NEVER AGAIN

tude dog;1427237 wrote: Mass murder of innocent people. To me is the same thing.

As in the cartoon subtitle.

NEVER AGAIN


"New York, NY, November 9, 2011 … The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today derided as "cynical and perverse" a movie that unequivocally compares the murder of millions of Jews and others in the Holocaust to women having abortions in the United States, calling the film "one of the most offensive and outrageous abuses of the memory of the Holocaust we have seen in years....................a perverse attempt to make a case against abortion in America through the cynical abuse of the memory of those killed in the Holocaust," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director and a Holocaust survivor.....................The creators of the film clearly don't get it," said Mr. Foxman. "No Christian who understands Jewish suffering should resort to inappropriate comparisons to the Holocaust to send a message that abortion is wrong. This was one of the most painful chapters in human history. Must the memory of the 6 million and millions of other victims be continually misused and abused by those with another agenda?"

ADL Derides Film's 'Cynical, Perverse' Attempt to Compare the Holocaust to Abortion in America

Nothing to debate with you either except to say Never Again use the Jewish people for your reactionary agenda. You have not earned the right and your misinterpretation of the Holocaust speaks volumes pertaining to your ignorance.

The irony of course is that the holocaust was the culmination of two thousand years of the Christian church blaming the jews for the crucifixion of jesus christ. It wasn't the first time christians tried to exterminate jews hitler was just more determined than most. The yellow star wasn't his idea he borrowed that from one of the popes. It would be difficult to overestimate the disastrous role religion played in Hitler's world view. Distrust, fear and hatred of Jews was a lesson Hitler learned early in life. It was taught by his church and reinforced by his culture. That's an inconvenient fact some people would like to write out of the history books.

There is no logical argument that justifies men in Washington, or Albany, Denver, Atlanta, or any other capital deciding whether a woman should, or should not abort a pregnancy.

It really is that simple.

I was just wondering something...if you are pro-life, then shouldn't you be anti-gun?

Why let a baby be born just so it can be shot later in life?

And the other way works too, if you are pro-gun, shouldn't you be pro-abortion?

I mean, if you hold life so cheap as to allow thousands of people to die, what's a few more?

AnneBoleyn;1427251 wrote: "New York, NY, November 9, 2011 The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) today derided as "cynical and perverse" a movie that unequivocally compares the murder of millions of Jews and others in the Holocaust to women having abortions in the United States, calling the film "one of the most offensive and outrageous abuses of the memory of the Holocaust we have seen in years....................a perverse attempt to make a case against abortion in America through the cynical abuse of the memory of those killed in the Holocaust," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director and a Holocaust survivor.....................The creators of the film clearly don't get it," said Mr. Foxman. "No Christian who understands Jewish suffering should resort to inappropriate comparisons to the Holocaust to send a message that abortion is wrong. This was one of the most painful chapters in human history. Must the memory of the 6 million and millions of other victims be continually misused and abused by those with another agenda?"


ADL Derides Film's 'Cynical, Perverse' Attempt to Compare the Holocaust to Abortion in America

What does that have to do with your great Dr.Gosnell?

Do you really think the ADL would condone the murders committed by Dr.Gosnell?

AnneBoleyn;1427251 wrote: Nothing to debate with you either except to say Never Again use the Jewish people for your reactionary agenda.


Who of us owns the phrase "NEVER AGAIN?" Just who?

AnneBoleyn;1427251 wrote: You have not earned the right and your misinterpretation of the Holocaust speaks volumes pertaining to your ignorance.


Earned the right???

What right is that pray tell? To misinterpret the Shoah or not know what the issue is?

You may support the likes of the murderer Dr.Gosnell, but not me, nor any of my tribe.

tude dog;1427264 wrote:

You may support the likes of the murderer Dr.Gosnell, but not me, nor any of my tribe.


Of course no one supports a criminal who operated outside the law. You are implying that anyone who supports women's choice supports murder which is, of course, heinous and ridiculous.

but let's see...just what does "your tribe" support?

Illegal wars

Torture

Guns

Marriage discrimination against gays

Destruction of social services for the poor

Banning unions

Discrimination against women

and tax protection for billionaires

Your "tribe" sounds uncivilized to me.

Saint_;1427260 wrote: I was just wondering something...if you are pro-life, then shouldn't you be anti-gun?


NO

Saint_;1427260 wrote: Why let a baby be born just so it can be shot later in life?


Or drown in a swimming pool, die in a car crash, get sucked up in a tornado, etc etc.

Saint_;1427260 wrote: And the other way works too, if you are pro-gun, shouldn't you be pro-abortion?


Hate to get all PC on you, just who is PRO-ABORTION?

Sorry if I made the assumption that your gun thingy was directed at me, but I am going to answer that anyway. I never advocated that all abortion be illegal.

Saint_;1427260 wrote: I mean, if you hold life so cheap as to allow thousands of people to die, what's a few more?


That question which should be directed at you.

AnneBoleyn;1427229 wrote: Gosnell Clinic has nothing to do with this. Not a thing.


That is right. I took the thread in another direction. Didn't mean to.

Saint_;1427265 wrote: Of course no one supports a criminal who operated outside the law.


So we agree on something.

Saint_;1427265 wrote: You are implying that anyone who supports women's choice supports murder which is, of course, heinous and ridiculous.


The cartoon I posted was very specific in that it named Gosnell, not abortionists in general.

Saint_;1427265 wrote: but let's see...just what does "your tribe" support?

Illegal wars

Torture

Guns

Marriage discrimination against gays

Destruction of social services for the poor

Banning unions

Discrimination against women

and tax protection for billionaires

Your "tribe" sounds uncivilized to me.


WOW

Do they live near you?

tude dog;1427227 wrote: And your point is what? That the fetuses suffered more when the procedure was performed at Gosnell's Clinic?

Halfway: I'm morally against capital punishment, it's against god's wishes. However, I hope they fry every last killer on death row because that's what god would want.

Seriously, do you ever say anything straightforward and truthful?

halfway;1427194 wrote: With the guilty verdict of the gruesome abortion butcher, the halls of the just have been very tense the past few weeks.

As a pro-choice advocate, I am sorry to say my entire set of arguments have been proven false except for one.....population control.Many of us value our arguments enough to invest adequate time and thought to our positions beforehand. Perhaps that's not your style?

halfway;1427194 wrote: "Choice". Destroyed with the morning after pill / Plan B.

Incest. Plan B / waiverable for the health of the mother.

Rape. Plan B / Morning After Pill.

Alley "coat hanger" abortion....numbers are way to low to provide a serious discussion.

Health of the mother. Waiverable medical recommendation./ Again, numbers are too low to warrant consideration. Care to explain any of this? What you've written is pretty ambiguous.

halfway;1427194 wrote: Population is my only remaining argument and the only one that is logical. I am now pro-control, but my friends are still very upset with this despite their complete lack of argument to the contrary. Either use what you have or don't, you're not much in the way of an effective arguer anyway. Perhaps it's time to quit?

halfway;1427194 wrote: It never ceases to amaze me that even the brightest minds and thinkers can become so rigidly attached to a stance that even blatant proof will not set them free. How shallow and helpless this must make them feel.Apparently not as shallow and helpless as you're feeling right now if one is to believe what you've written in the OP.

SnoozeAgain;1427274 wrote: Halfway: I'm morally against capital punishment, it's against god's wishes. However, I hope they fry every last killer on death row because that's what god would want.

Seriously, do you ever say anything straightforward and truthful?


I did the best I could.

Boy, it really brought out the hate in some people. Real hate. Wow.

Hope that is straight forward enough. It is a shame how much anger people have and the hate that is shown when their views (or conscience) gets challenged.

Wow.

halfway;1427280 wrote: Hope that is straight forward enough.


It wasn't straightforward at all. Do you know what the term means?

Accountable;1427283 wrote: It wasn't straightforward at all. Do you know what the term means?


What are you trying to say. It's not very clear.

My OP stated that I have little arguments remaining that are based in valid facts. I needed some help with better factual arguments. Maybe if I write it in crayon?

halfway;1427296 wrote: What are you trying to say. It's not very clear.

My OP stated that I have little arguments remaining that are based in valid facts. I needed some help with better factual arguments. Maybe if I write it in crayon?


I wasn't responding to your OP. I was responding to the post I quoted.

Accountable;1427300 wrote: I wasn't responding to your OP. I was responding to the post I quoted.


It was obviosuly an offshoot of the OP.

The OP is the OP.

Was that a little too confusing? Oh f@ck! This post is probably off topic too, doh!!!

td: "Who of us owns the phrase "NEVER AGAIN?" Just who?"

Legally speaking, no one "owns" the phrase, but your use of it is misappropriation. You are co-opting it in order to mislead. The phrase, in modern culture, is synonymous with the Jewish Holocaust (not disregarding the millions of others here, just explaining) & your use of it attempts to give credence for something for which it was never meant. Are you lazy? Get your own phrase! For your own cause! Are you so unimaginative that you must absorb the phrase to suit your own purpose? There is no fusion here, the majority of Jews overwhelmingly support pro-choice. Blast your attempts at a merger!

1/2way: "Boy, it really brought out the hate in some people. Real hate. Wow."

You flatter yourself. I guess you should as it seems it won't come from anyone else here. I don't hate you. I don't hate any Anti-choice person or their beliefs. They are free to feel this way, free to express themselves, free to teach their children this. My resentment comes from trying to interfere with the law & to restrict the rights of others. Talk until you're blue in the face as far as I'm concerned.

AnneBoleyn;1427307 wrote: 1/2way: "Boy, it really brought out the hate in some people. Real hate. Wow."

You flatter yourself. I guess you should as it seems it won't come from anyone else here. I don't hate you. I don't hate any Pro Life person or their beliefs. .


I'm not so sure about that annne.

You butcher names, call names, condescend, ridicule, call names again, grow angry and terse.....

Ayup....that would be the definition of the very attribute I called out.

You are very angry against those who do not walk lock step with you. I believe we are on the same side...but you have shown no ability to even entertain any other data than your own reality.

It really is a shame and I am sorry for you. I would guess you have had a difficult life...I wonder why?

I have come to the considered opinion that the quote about arguing on the internet is "Like wrestling with a pig, because you get dirty while the pig enjoys it" always reminds me of halfway.

"You are very angry against those who do not walk lock step with you. I believe we are on the same side...but you have shown no ability to even entertain any other data than your own reality."

In your dreams or in my nightmares.

AnneBoleyn;1427321 wrote:

In your dreams or in my nightmares.


I hope you never consider yourself open minded or flexible.

You should take a course in moral relativism. It would help you empathize and maybe in the process you would learn a thing or two.

I can see how the very narrow-minded behavior you exhibit leads us into bigotry, racism, sexism, and cultural bias.

I picture you as a slave owner in Georgia in 1850....your "belief" is all you need to justify your actions no matter how wrong they are proven to be.

Shame. But I value you as a person nonetheless.

Funny. I never think about you at all.

AnneBoleyn;1427334 wrote: Funny. I never think about you at all.


Yet you visit this thread at least every three minutes.

I hope you never consider yourself open minded or flexible.

You should take a course in moral relativism. It would help you empathize and maybe in the process you would learn a thing or two.

I can see how the very narrow-minded behavior you exhibit leads us into bigotry, racism, sexism, and cultural bias.

I picture you as a slave owner in Georgia in 1850....your "belief" is all you need to justify your actions no matter how wrong they are proven to be.

Shame. But I value you as a person nonetheless.

That's not the same as thinking about you. I don't imagine you, consider you, analyze you. That's what I meant.