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On this Memorial Day let us remember that no country in history has sacrificied more in the cause of freedom than the United States of America.

God bless our wonderful soldiers, sailors and airmen who give so much to keep our country safe and at peace.

Excellent post, and I don`t decry it at all, but I think if you check your statistics you will find that Russia and possibly even the UK sacrificed more citizens pro rata of their total population in their fight against fascist Nazism in the second world war.

MOVING.. ENJOY CALLED WE SUPPORT OUR TROOPS..!!



http://www.forest.ws/WeSupportU.htm

You're right, Thankyou to "all" of the Armed forces that give us all the freedom to be even posting here!!!

.....Memorial Day in America ( 1 2 3 )

lady cop wrote: .....Memorial Day in America ( 1 2 3 )
Thanx LC:

Golly gee......... Are we lucky to have people keep us ALL between the lines around here.......

Where would we be if eveyone kept driving on the shoulder without directions?

Thanx again.

Every year on the eleventh of November the whole of europe gets together to remember the dead of two world wars and remind themselves of the stupidity and waste of warfare. Of all the countries involved in defeating Hitler, the US is the only one which likes to boast about the part it played.

Yet the truth is that America far from leaping to the defence of freedom america did nothing except profit from the conflict and only supplied war material at the time the British needed it most in the teeth of intense opposition from those who were only too happy to see Hitler conqueor europe and in the guise of lend lease when in return for obsolete warships you got bases around the world to extend your power and all the technological advances in sonar and radar and jet engines that the British had made and that we handed over to you and without which your much vaunted military machine would have been considerably less effective when you did finally go to war. Your best fighter had to have Rolls Royce engines in it before it was any good in combat.

Yet you still believe this hollywood fuelled myth that only americans were involved and saved the free world. It wasn't the americans that stopped Hitler it was a tiny island whose people said this far and no further and fought on alone when everybody else just gave in or didn't want to know and many in america hoped we would go down

Those troops that waded ashore on D-Day or in Iwo Jima (there were four British carriers present at Iwo Jima buy you never see that mentioned do you?) were undoubtedly heroes and deserve to be honoured as do those who served in Viatnam and currently serving in Iraq serving in Iraq.

But honour them by asking what did they fight for and why are they fighting now. Before you go to war it behoves anyone of conscience to ask is this really the only option. Warfare is not a game.

After 911 the whole world would have backed you in a fight against terrorism but instead you decide to attack a country that, for all it's faults had nothing to do with 911.

You would think after Vietnam the american people would be slightly cynical about politicians and their motives and query whether warfare is the only answer but no it's blind patriotism and anyone disagreeing and pointing out the obvious flaws in logic is shouted down as unamerican. No one except its own citizens has ever been fooled by the excuses and lies of the American government about why. OK Tony Blair managed to convince parliament and we went in with you but any credibility Tony Blair might have had has worn very thin, very few if any of the electorate agree with him now if he said the world was round most would instinctively assume it was flat.

And it's not even as if all this benefits the average American in any way. Far from reaping the rewards of their government's militaristic posturing, the American people are having their freedoms eroded, their economy punctured, and their personal safety put at risk. Patriotism is all very well and even admirable, blind patriotism is just stupidity.

gmc wrote:



Yet the truth is that America far from leaping to the defence of freedom america did nothing except profit from the conflict and only supplied war material at the time the British needed it most in the teeth of intense opposition from those who were only too happy to see Hitler conqueor europe and in the guise of lend lease when in return for obsolete warships you got bases around the world to extend your power ...........





Those troops that waded ashore on D-Day or in Iwo Jima (there were four British carriers present at Iwo Jima buy you never see that mentioned do you?) were undoubtedly heroes and deserve to be honoured as do those who served in Viatnam and currently serving in Iraq serving in Iraq.



But honour them by asking what did they fight for and why are they fighting now. Before you go to war it behoves anyone of conscience to ask is this really the only option. Warfare is not a game.



And it's not even as if all this benefits the average American in any way. Far from reaping the rewards of their government's militaristic posturing, the American people are having their freedoms eroded, their economy punctured, and their personal safety put at risk. Patriotism is all very well and even admirable, blind patriotism is just stupidity.Spoken like a tru pacifist.....

I think Mr Blair was recently re-elected? Maybe you are not speaking for all Great Britons? Or are you?



You say "honour them by asking what did they fight for"

By your account they were fighting to make money for the terrible ol US of A.

It ALWAYS leads to that (capitalism) in your way of thinking.

Why is that?

I'm curious......

GMC - What on earth are you talking about?

Read the posts - see what we all think.

What is said is absolutely true - No nation an earth in history has given more in the defense of global freedom than the United States.

It's a fact.

You may not like it but it's a fact!

You can't change it.

I think I might detect a little of the 'chip on the shoulder' attitude here.

Oh dear!

GMC - I was taught that most of the countries in the world had troops involved in WWII. Even people whose country was not involved came to fight with the allied troops. I don't know of any American that thinks the US was the sole cause of the defeat of Hitler. He had to be stopped and the allied troops did just that.

nvalleyvee wrote: GMC - I was taught that most of the countries in the world had troops involved in WWII. Even people whose country was not involved came to fight with the allied troops. I don't know of any American that thinks the US was the sole cause of the defeat of Hitler. He had to be stopped and the allied troops did just that.


Absolutely correct - NV.

No one thinks we were the sole cause of defeating the Nazis in WW2.

We had good and courageous allies just as we have in Iraq and now, just as then, we are very grateful for their support.

Don't knock the US of A. When Britain is going ahead with Nazi EU. God Bless America.

posted by BTS

Spoken like a tru pacifist.....

I think Mr Blair was recently re-elected? Maybe you are not speaking for all Great Britons? Or are you?


Actually I'm not a pacifist-not that it's really relevant- but I am a citizen in a free country and if a politician says go to war I exercise my right to ask why and give me a good reason to do so. Try curbing my right to express an opinion and you would find out I am not in the least pacific. Free people do not follow blindly, as to whether i speak for a majority of my countrymen I don't know. But in this country, at least, criticising the policies of the government is not seen as unpatriotic. Calling someone unpatriotic is seen as a device used to try and stifle debate-it gets very short shrift indeed. Calling Tony Blair a lying hypocritcal politician-or similar, is legitimate comment. derogatory comments about politicians are par for the course say what you like about Tony Blair it's a free country.

Yes TB was recently re-elected by less than 40% of the vote, only the vagaries of our electoral system got him back with a parliamentary majority, only someone as delusional as the current cabinet would convince themselves they have the real support of the British people. We have our own politics in crisis to worry about.

posted by BTS

You say "honour them by asking what did they fight for"

By your account they were fighting to make money for the terrible ol US of A.

It ALWAYS leads to that (capitalism) in your way of thinking.

Why is that?

I'm curious......


What are they fighting for? So you are saying it is not in america's interest to invade Iraq? Why don't you tell me what you think they are fighting for , what benefit you think the ordinary american will get out of the conflict in Iraq. How about what connection did Iraq have to 911 and how it is making future terrorism less likely. How can you ignore past policies that led up to this as if there is no connection and carry on making the same mistake. Why do you support opposition movements in the Ukraine yet support the regime in uzbekistan when they crush the same thing-is it because the nasty dictator will let you build a pipeline. Why condemn a democrtically elected government in Venezuela, is it because, heaven forfend they think oil taxes should be increased and spent on the local population instead of going to foreign oil companies.

Rather than just shouting abuse (metaphorically speaking) If the fact I don't share our world view point bothers you convince me I'm wrong in my view. Save the putative insults I'm thick skinned. On the other hand I have an open mind.

If you can't think of a convincing arguement maybe you need to think about it a bit more.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64471,00.html

U.S. First Aided Iraq With Biological Samples


Interesting stuff if you can be bothered to wade through it. Mind yoiu I don't know about fox news whether biased or not. Never actually seen it.

Please read my quote of you correctly............. thank you







posted by BTS





Quote:

You say "honour them by asking what did they fight for"

By your account they were fighting to make money for the terrible ol US of A.

It ALWAYS leads to that (capitalism) in your way of thinking.

Why is that?

I'm curious......

"honour them by asking what did they fight for" (text enlarged by BTS)



This was in reference to your attack on why America was in WW11.



If you can't think of a convincing arguement maybe you need to think about it a bit more.

Before singling out US actions during WWII, I think Britain had some moments that were nothing to be proud of. The one that disgusts me most of all was Lord Mountbatten, grandson of Queen Victoria, knowingly sending thousands of Canadians into a slaughter at Dieppe. Out of 5,000 Canadians, 3,367 were casualties, including over 1,900 prisoners-of-war.

Now, more than 60 years later, a University of Victoria graduate history student from Powell River, B.C., has uncovered a key document disclosing for the first time that the deception after the battle was deliberate, mapped out three days before the raid took place. Britain's Combined Operations Headquarters, or COHQ, headed by Lord Louis Mountbatten planned the Dieppe raid and stoutly defended it after the fiasco."There was a clear plan by COHQ to deceive the public, and portray any failure as a victory," said Timothy Balzer, who discovered the document while combing Canadian military archives in Ottawa.The COHQ document, containing minutes of a meeting held before the raid, lays out a five-step, public-relations strategy to be followed "in case the raid is unsuccessful."

In particular, the minutes say, military communiqués must "stress the success of the operation as an essential test in the employment of substantial forces and heavy equipment." Further: "We then lay extremely heavy stress on stories of personal heroism -- through interviews, broadcasts, etcetera -- in order to focus public attention on BRAVERY rather than OBJECTIVES NOT ATTAINED."

"Of course the military would want to put the best possible spin on something, but I think this went beyond the pale of what was acceptable," he said. "It was total deception. That's crossing the line."

But he argued that the only lesson learned that was not already obvious was perhaps to stay away from port cities in a future invasion. "They went in over open beaches, so they did learn from Dieppe that seizing a port was unlikely to work."

For Mr. Poolton, now 86 and battling cancer, Mr. Balzer's discovery adds to a belief that the raid was designed to fail in order to show Stalin, who was demanding a second front, how difficult an all-out landing would be. "Officers are never supposed to put their men at a disadvantage. But we were fired upon with machine guns and mortars on an open beach. There was barbed wire everywhere. Ridiculous. Our regiment lost 227 men. That's a lot of bodies out of the 500 that went over." Bitterly, he recalled Lord Mountbatten's words before they left for France. "He said: 'Give 'em one for me, boys.' "

Criticize another country if you wish, but look to your own nation's history before acting too self-righteous.

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Attached files

posted by flopstock

So, I don't have to support Bush or his policies. I don't have to agree with any decision made regarding this conflict. I can disagree with the entire premise for going to war. But don't ask an American to not stand up when our soldiers are questioned on the soundness of their heart, on their very humanity...as some like to do. Attack the policy and even the policy makers, we do it amongst ourselves. But don't attack our sons and daughters on their intent, when they signed on to serve our country. They are good and honorable people. We take great pride in them.


I have never once denegrated your soldiers nor would I ever, nor the British troops either come to that. By what perverted logic does a criticism of policy in Iraq become an attack on the US military? What seems to be happening is that sentiment for the military is being perverted so that any comment about the war is taken as being against those actually fighting it. You should support the troops becomes you shouldn't question why they are there. Just for the record I do support the troops-the British in particular for obvious reasons but also the american ones. Also for the record I supported the gulf war as i would warfare against naked aggression like that. If politicians had half the integrity of those in the military the world would be a better place. I support the troops but question what is going on.

I have every respect for the motives of those in the military but loyalty and patriotism have always been manipulated by those in power doubting the motives of political leaders is not unpatriotic it's common sense. So you suffered a terrorist attack. Why? they are a bunch of nitters is not sufficient answer. Why invade Iraq? They had nothing to do with 911, Saddam was a nasty **** but for an outside force to impose democracy is an absurd concept it has to come from within. WMD's? There were none and it is now clear both the US and UK administrations altered intelligence reports to fit in with what they wanted to do. Questioning what politicians tell you is not unpatriotic it is common sense

posted by flopstock

while we honor our sons and daughters who gave up their lives in service to a country,anyone who can't set aside their 'world view' for one second, by simply saying 'nothing'... and for a short period of time just 'shut up'.... should perhaps be examining their own humanity.


After you have shut up for a period and remembered the consequences of warfare and in europe we also remember the millions who died in pointless slaughter in the first world war as well as ww2 and Korea, hopefully you will have humanity enough to ask why. Not asking is an insult to those who died for high ideals you are not denegrating them you are taking steps to understand what made them fight and by understanding not go blindly to war except as a last resort.

posted by flopstock

have you folks ever sent young men off to die in the name of their country? have you folks ever greeted their return with scorn, spitting at them, calling them baby killers and crap like that? blaming the men who fought, for the decisions of the leaders they fought under? making them feel grateful, just to be ignored? zero gratitude for the lives given up in the name of your country?

We have.

And that's not ever gonna happen again here.


No we never have, personally I think they were spitting at the wrong people and should have saved their ire for the leaders that got them in to the mess in the first place.

posted by turbonium

Before singling out US actions during WWII, I think Britain had some moments that were nothing to be proud of. The one that disgusts me most of all was Lord Mountbatten, grandson of Queen Victoria, knowingly sending thousands of Canadians into a slaughter at Dieppe. Out of 5,000 Canadians, 3,367 were casualties, including over 1,900 prisoners-of-war.


I wasn't singling US actions in particular I just get fed up with the constant aren't the US wonderful saving the world routine.

If you want to look for moments in British history that are nothing to be proud of there is actually a rather long list. Lay off the rose tinted spectacles and look at american history there is a long list as well, just as there is an equally long list of things to be proud of, try and be more objective.

posted by capn buzzard

Don't knock the US of A. When Britain is going ahead with Nazi EU. God Bless America.


Ironic isn't it, the french vote no because they think the constitution is too anglo-saxon and free market oriented and the british object because it is too socialist and interfering.

posted by flopstock

But, you need to appreciate that a request that fallen soldiers be remembered and honored for their service is not actually an invitation to debate the merits of the wars in which they died. And that sometimes a statement is merely what it appears to be...a statement of appreciation. And not the time for debate.


Fair comment, but in in the UK we remember the dead and all they did for us but also remember the futility of war. It's with a great sense of sadness for lost generations.

posted by philadelphia

On this Memorial Day let us remember that no country in history has sacrificied more in the cause of freedom than the United States of America.


To be blunt I found this comment deeply offensive to all those who fought to defend their freedom throughout the world and those who still would should the occasion arise. It shows a breathtaking arrogance and ignorance of world history and remarkable selective knowledge of your own.

I wasn't singling US actions in particular I just get fed up with the constant aren't the US wonderful saving the world routine.

If you want to look for moments in British history that are nothing to be proud of there is actually a rather long list. Lay off the rose tinted spectacles and look at american history there is a long list as well, just as there is an equally long list of things to be proud of, try and be more objective.


I don't wear 'rose tinted spectacles' regarding American history - youre judging my opinions based on a post where I was trying to point out that other countries, not just the US, have made poor or immoral decisions. I'm not unaware or avoiding the foibles of the US Gov't or leaders - please don't try and pigeonhole my position on issues without even knowing them.

gmc wrote: posted by flopstock



Fair comment, but in in the UK we remember the dead and all they did for us but also remember the futility of war. It's with a great sense of sadness for lost generations.

posted by philadelphia



To be blunt I found this comment deeply offensive to all those who fought to defend their freedom throughout the world and those who still would should the occasion arise. It shows a breathtaking arrogance and ignorance of world history and remarkable selective knowledge of your own.


GMC - Your post illustrates quite graphically one of the many differences between the USA and UK.

My statement was one of literally dozens of similarily expressed sentiments on American sites throughout the nation.

It was, in no way, an attempt to be offensive. As I said before it is simply stating facts.

As a member of an American forum you will need to get used to seeing this type of sentiment expressed very often.

posted by philadelphia

GMC - Your post illustrates quite graphically one of the many differences between the USA and UK.

My statement was one of literally dozens of similarily expressed sentiments on American sites throughout the nation.

It was, in no way, an attempt to be offensive. As I said before it is simply stating facts.

As a member of an American forum you will need to get used to seeing this type of sentiment expressed very often.


It is your statement of it as a fact that is wrong and insulting to the memories of all those who died in other countries. To many remembrance day is a time for sadness.

http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/search.aspx

"We can truly say that the whole circuit of the earth is girdled with the graves of our dead... and, in the course of my pilgrimage, I have many times asked myself whether there can be more potent advocates of peace upon earth through the years to come, than this massed multitude of silent witnesses to the desolation of war."


But let's agree to honour the dead and leave it at that.

posted by turbinium

I don't wear 'rose tinted spectacles' regarding American history - youre judging my opinions based on a post where I was trying to point out that other countries, not just the US, have made poor or immoral decisions. I'm not unaware or avoiding the foibles of the US Gov't or leaders - please don't try and pigeonhole my position on issues without even knowing them.


Wasn't actually aimed at you in particular. I am well aware of the faults of the west as a whole and you could make a heck of a good case for blaming france and britain for making the situation in the middle east as it is now back in the days when the US was a minor power. Jingoism should be left in the past where it belongs.

GMC - You are confusing Memorial Day with Veteran's Day as another British poster did. (See LC's explanation of the difference between the two.

Veteran's Day is on Nov 11th and is a solemn occasion for remembering those from many countries who gave their lives in war.

Philadelphia Eagle wrote: GMC - You are confusing Memorial Day with Veteran's Day as another British poster did. (See LC's explanation of the difference between the two.

Veteran's Day is on Nov 11th and is a solemn occasion for remembering those from many countries who gave their lives in war.thankyou Philly....but if i directed anyone to another thread BTS would take great offense and deride me for it. this was Decoration Day. instituted after the civil war.for war dead. Veteran's Day is another day to remember those who served, whether still living or not.

posted by philadelphia eagle

GMC - You are confusing Memorial Day with Veteran's Day as another British poster did. (See LC's explanation of the difference between the two.

Veteran's Day is on Nov 11th and is a solemn occasion for remembering those from many countries who gave their lives in war


I still don't get it. What is memorial day? I just assumed it was remembrance day on a different date from everybody else.

On a similar vein we have german friends who comment on the number of british war films that are shown constantly on british TV, asking why we are so obsessed by it I suppose replying because we won is a bit uncharitable. I have an austrian brother in law whose father fought on the german side at tobruk against mine-kind of makes you think.