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The butler didn't do it but one of his agents did.

A bloke by the name of hickey. A driver in the car behind . Who was recruited for the day because so many other agents were drunk due to being in a strip club until 5 am that day drunk off their scones.

McLaren, a retired homicide detective who worked on some of the most notorious killings of late 20th century Melbourne - including the Mr Cruel taskforce that sought to find the serial kidnapper, rapist and killer of little girls - doesn't call his work a theory.

He believes he is the only working detective to have carried out a classic cold case investigation into the murder. He regards the documentary - and accompanying book of the same name, published this week - as a "rock-solid" brief of evidence, as ready for trial as any case he'd previously prepared.

"The whole thing has become so polluted by conspiracy theories," he says. "In the public's mind it's become a scrambled egg."

So ... who did it?

Lee Harvey Oswald? Forget it. Three out of four Americans don't believe he acted alone. And he couldn't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag, anyway. Besides, the killing of JFK always demanded something bigger than a halfwit gone haywire.

That's why the Russians always made such appealing suspects. Driven enough to take the world to the brink of global destruction, why wouldn't they blow off the head of the man who had stared them down? If you disagree with the Ruskies theory, there is always the Mafia, an ambitious vice president in the form of LBJ, an out-of-favour CIA, or even corporate whites scared of the black man taking over. But what if the shooting of John Fitzgerald Kennedy was simply a stuff-up? That's what McLaren believes: a ship of fools was to blame after all.

Read more: Riding shotgun




So there you have it . They release the info, someone has the patience to read through it. and comes up with an embarrassing conclusion.

t goes like this: the secret service agents detailed to ride shotgun on the motorcade through Dallas went out drinking the night before. When the first shot, from Oswald's gun, freakishly caught the president in the throat, the agents were slow and heavy to respond.

One of the agents riding in the follow-up Cadillac - the car behind the Lincoln Continental carrying Mr and Mrs Kennedy - had an AR-15 assault rifle loaded with hollow-point bullets. The agent, George Hickey, had little experience with this weapon. In the confusion following that first shot, Hickey, awkwardly sitting on the head-rest of the rear seat, and jolted by the car's lurching to a halt, fumbled for the gun. And - oops - it went off.

"It's almost cartoonish,'' says McLaren. "It's where the evidence takes us.''

Most compelling are the dozens of witnesses who smelt gunsmoke in close proximity to Kennedy's car, and those who saw a Secret Service agent in the following car swing around with a "machine gun". Those people weren't called before the Warren commission. What is gobsmacking is the unambiguous latter-day testimony that the Secret Service perpetuated a cover-up, including the fabrication of evidence and the intimidation of the autopsy team.

McLaren's starting point, however, was a "first-class" ballistics report published 21 years ago by an American, Howard Donahue, that proved beyond doubt that a second gun fired the fatal shot. This leads us back to the empty cartridges lying on McLaren's coffee table. He holds one up.

"The actual projectile from one of these has a full-metal jacket," he says. "Under the Geneva Convention it was designed to pass cleanly through the body of a soldier, knocking him out of action, but ... giving him a chance. A full-metal jacket wouldn't have blown half of Kennedy's head off."

Donahue, in a study that took 20 years, found Kennedy had been killed by a soft-point or hollow-point round - a bullet that disintegrates into fragments upon impact, causing an explosive effect of the sort made famous in the Zapruder footage of the assassination. It was Donahue who first argued the shot came from Hickey - "a position behind and to the left of the president" - and he did so in a book, Mortal Error, by Bonar Menninger.

What should have been a sensational reveal was lost to obscurity. Mortal Error, released in 1992, was, says McLaren, overshadowed by Oliver Stone's conspiracy-rich movie JFK, which had hit the screens months before. "The other problem was ... it's very hard to read, very technical, like reading a ballistics report from a forensic laboratory in a homicide case.''

That same year, McLaren was investigating serial attacks on young girls that went back to 1985. "I needed a break, and I took off travelling. I landed in New York," McLaren says.

After a few weeks holiday, he headed home and while looking for something to read on the plane, found Donahue's book in a bargain bin. "The guy was spot on. But it was all meat and no potatoes. He just didn't have the investigative support or the witnesses or crime-scene analysis.''

Read more: Riding shotgun




How sad to of lost a good president this way .

Surprise me - you're suggesting that someone at the wheel of a moving car, while driving, could group three handgun rounds into a three-inch target, also moving, at 30 yards? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick there.

And if he conspired with others to commit the assassination, why do you title the thread "so called conspiracy"?

fuzzywuzzy;1438428 wrote: The butler didn't do it but one of his agents did.

A bloke by the name of hickey. A driver in the car behind . Who was recruited for the day because so many other agents were drunk due to being in a strip club until 5 am that day drunk off their scones.


It's certainly a possibility that I read about when some of the records became public recently. Yet, some argue that LHO was still In the Book depositary and fired the first shot. The shot that actually killed Kennedy could Indeed have been made In error In the panic that ensued that first shot. It's a good theory.

That is probably one of the more ludicrous versions I have heard of, which probably makes it among the most likely scenarios.

Týr;1438484 wrote: Surprise me - you're suggesting that someone at the wheel of a moving car, while driving, could group three handgun rounds into a three-inch target, also moving, at 30 yards? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick there.

And if he conspired with others to commit the assassination, why do you title the thread "so called conspiracy"?


An AR-15 is not a handgun, and the guy wasn't driving.

It is pretty obvious that the round that was the head-shot was a different type of round from the one found on Connally's stretcher that supposedly went through two bodies.

LarsMac;1438503 wrote: That is probably one of the more ludicrous versions I have heard of, which probably makes it among the most likely scenarios.


But Possible.

LarsMac;1438505 wrote: An AR-15 is not a handgun, and the guy wasn't driving.

It is pretty obvious that the round that was the head-shot was a different type of round from the one found on Connally's stretcher that supposedly went through two bodies.


That's If we go by official reports at the time. There's every possibility the bullet found on the stretcher was of a different firearm and was part of a cover-up.

LarsMac;1438505 wrote: An AR-15 is not a handgun, and the guy wasn't driving.
My apologies - I based my question on the Original Post's "A driver in the car behind".

Týr;1438511 wrote: My apologies - I based my question on the Original Post's "A driver in the car behind".


No worries. There seems to be two stories here, and it's hard to separate them. The guy that was supposed to have the AR-15 was sitting on the back seat of the car behind.

I think the guy telling the story is supposed to have been the driver of that car.

The late ballistics and firearms expert Howard Donahue believed that one of the Secret Service (SS) agents in the follow-up car accidentally shot President Kennedy. Donahue's theory and his supporting arguments are the subject of a book by Bonar Menninger, MORTAL ERROR (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1992). The work includes an excellent "Publisher's Note" that summarizes the findings of a St. Martin's Press research team regarding the flawed trajectory analysis done by NASA scientist Thomas Canning for the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA).



According to Donahue, Oswald did indeed fire at Kennedy, but only got off two shots. Oswald's first shot, says Donahue, hit the road near the limousine and showered the car with fragments, some of which lightly injured Kennedy in the head. Oswald's second shot, according to Donahue, struck the President in the back of the neck and then went on to cause all of Governor John Connally's wounds. (This, of course, isthe single bullet theory (SBT), which Donahue believed.) Moments later, Donahue maintains, the fatal shot was fired, accidentally, from the follow-up car by SS agent George Hickey.



Menninger presents the following arguments in favor of Donahue's reconstruction:



* The trajectory given for the alleged rear entrance head wound is incompatible with a shot from the alleged sniper's nest, i.e., from the location from which Oswald supposedly fired, the southeast corner window on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building;



* The bullet that mortally wounded Kennedy in the head behaved like a high-velocity, frangible missile, whereas Oswald supposedly used medium-velocity, non-frangible ammunition;



* SSA Hickey, however, was seen with an AR-15 rifle at around the same time the head shot was fired, where the AR-15 fires high-velocity, frangible ammo;



* The reported width of the rear entry wound on the head was 6.0 mm, but Oswald allegedly used 6.5 mm Carcano bullets;



* The damage to the limousine's windshield was too high to have been caused by a bullet coming down into the car from the sixth-floor sniper's nest, as even Canning conceded to the HSCA;

Griffith Review of MORTAL ERROR

My highlighted sentence Is what could, I believe, have happened.

Týr;1438484 wrote: Surprise me - you're suggesting that someone at the wheel of a moving car, while driving, could group three handgun rounds into a three-inch target, also moving, at 30 yards? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick there.

And if he conspired with others to commit the assassination, why do you title the thread "so called conspiracy"?


No no no no He is actually agreeing with an author that already came out with the same info a long time ago (from the ballistics evidence) but the records were still classified. All he's done is back up the original theory of this particular author after reading through the now unclassified documents. The gist of it is that lee harvey shot the president twice. When the cars came to a halt the bloke in hte rear car fired his gun as the cars stopped....(not sure if he was the driver or the stand in (agent) front seat passenger. He's saying the fatal shot was an accident. One of Harveys shots went through only mucle tissue not sure about the other shot but apparently because he was so close to the hospital JFK could have survived those shots . The fatal shot was from behind.

Anyway the doco is being shown all over the world very shortly. All I can say is watch it . The detective who wrote the book is no dummy or conspiricist.

JFK: The Smoking Gun documentary claims president was accidentally shot by clumsy secret service agent George Hickey - Mirror Online

I read through the comments and all this detective has done is put a brief of evidence together in which he has done time and time again in some of Australia's most heinous and difficult crimes. I trust this bloke in that sense. Everyone involved is pretty much dead these days. Whether deliberate or not ...at least we know where the fatal shot came from.....That bit is now pretty much solved.......other than that I have no opinion on it.

Does anyone address the likelihood of the crowds cheering and watching the motorcade actually seeing a gun fired from within the motorcade itself?

Týr;1438888 wrote: Does anyone address the likelihood of the crowds cheering and watching the motorcade actually seeing a gun fired from within the motorcade itself?


I remember seeing, somewhere, that there were comments from some of the crowd of seeing "machine guns" in the hands of some of the Secret Service agents.

If my memory serves me correct, there were around 50 witness reports that they heard shots from the Grassy Knoll... Is It possible that this was rebound from the shot fired accidently from the Motorcade ?

LarsMac;1438892 wrote: I remember seeing, somewhere, that there were comments from some of the crowd of seeing "machine guns" in the hands of some of the Secret Service agents.


One would expect them to be heavily armed, yes. But a crowd cheering and watching the motorcade when one of those guns is actually fired from within the motorcade really ought to throw up a few reports claiming a gun had been fired from within the motorcade. Or am I mistaken about that, do you suppose.

A witness named Betzner mentioned seeing a SS raise up with a machine gun and then a flash of pink after the first shot was fired.

http://www.jfk-online.com/betzner.html

His official statement from the day.

As for me, Lee Harvey Oswald was the Lone Killer. In the past I have read that he was not a poor shot. Maybe he was lucky to have hit his moving target, but I think he did.

Eyewitnesses are sometimes way off the mark, as certain studies have shown.

i.e.--http://www.innocenceproject.org/underst ... cation.php

AnneBoleyn;1438912 wrote: As for me, Lee Harvey Oswald was the Lone Killer. In the past I have read that he was not a poor shot. Maybe he was lucky to have hit his moving target, but I think he did.

Eyewitnesses are sometimes way off the mark, as certain studies have shown.

i.e.--http://www.innocenceproject.org/underst ... cation.php LHO was an excellent shot... a crack shot. He'd served In the Marines and and was trained In firearms particually Rifle shooting long before the assassination.



Days after his seventeenth birthday, Oswald enlisted in the US Marine Corps, following in the footsteps of his idolized brother, Robert. The young military enlistee was deployed in Japan and various locations in the South Pacific. Like all marines, he learned to shoot, and earned the distinction of Marksman, a level below that of Sharpshooter.



http://www.savingjackiek.com/suspects_l ... swald.html



What Interests me more, Is that according to the breakdown of the Z footage, there was only 1.8 seconds between the first and second bullet... even LHO would have had difficulty In re-loading. It supports a shot fired by a SS In panic from behind.

Oswald made Sharpshooter during Basic training. The Marines expect EVERY recruit to achieve 'Marksman' before they finish basic training. Every Marine knows how to shoot.

Several people have reproduced the task of firing three shots within the allotted time, with the same model rifle as He used. While difficult, it was doable.

It required significant practice with the rifle to get the action of the bolt worked out, but the average between shot time was around 1.6-1.7 seconds.





The real question many experts ask is how he could have missed on one shot. The distance was not difficult and as large a target as the car was, the bullet should have impacted SOMEWHERE on the car.

That is the real mystery.

That and, of course, why Oswald was there in the first place.

LM: "The real question many experts ask is how he could have missed on one shot. The distance was not difficult and as large a target as the car was, the bullet should have impacted SOMEWHERE on the car.

That is the real mystery.

That and, of course, why Oswald was there in the first place."

You may as well ask why Adam Lanza was where he was. They were lone people with murder on their minds.

But in Governor Connally's own words: 'There were either two or three people involved, or more, in this — or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.'

The politician's wife believed that her husband was hit by a bullet that was separate from the two that hit Kennedy.



Read more: End of JFK conspiracy theories? Digital technology proves Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone | Mail Online

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

oscar;1438973 wrote: But in Governor Connally's own words: 'There were either two or three people involved, or more, in this — or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle.'

The politician's wife believed that her husband was hit by a bullet that was separate from the two that hit Kennedy.



Read more: End of JFK conspiracy theories? Digital technology proves Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone | Mail Online

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


To the untrained ear, the echo off the buildings would cause it to sound like several extra gunshots had been fired.

LarsMac;1438977 wrote: To the untrained ear, the echo off the buildings would cause it to sound like several extra gunshots had been fired.


Ahhh. That's what I wondered earlier In the thread. Could the SS bullet resounded and account for witness reports that It came from the GK ?

The doco Airs this Sunday in Australia ......has it been aired in Britain yet? If not, I'm sure Monday will provide us with the youtube version. Or i-view. I hope it's a decent doco .

just writing a response, thought I deleted it

tude dog;1439178 wrote: just writing a response, thought I deleted it


Thought the better of it, hey?

Re: JFK so called conspiricy solved.

Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post

just writing a response, thought I deleted it

Thought the better of it, hey?

What happened was I was in the middle of a lengthy comment and decided to not put a foot in that bucket of sh+t, again. By accident I posted it. I really didn't want to revisit all the old/tired arguments seen, heard and what not.

Not to keep you in suspense, it is clear to me

Lee Harvey Oswald alone murdered President Kennedy.

This is a really the best book concerning the murder.

Case Closed

TD: "Lee Harvey Oswald alone murdered President Kennedy."

I do so love it when we agree!

AnneBoleyn;1439246 wrote: TD: "Lee Harvey Oswald alone murdered President Kennedy."

I do so love it when we agree!


It's like getting that perfect mix of vinegar and oil on your salad.

YZGI;1439259 wrote: It's like getting that perfect mix of vinegar and oil on your salad.


Don't want to know who is who!

AnneBoleyn;1439261 wrote: Don't want to know who is who!


It takes both to make the salad taste good.

Everything I have ever read makes me believe LHO was a Patsy. Witness's saw Jack Ruby and LHO drinking together In Ruby's bar. They were friends but not big time mobsters. Ruby was a small time gangster with Mob connections and I believe It was Indeed the Mob who ordered the hit In connection with Robert Kennedy's oath to crack down on organised crime.

LHO just happened to fit the criteria. A Marksman and I believe vulnerable.

They probably believed SS would take out LHO on the day yet when they had him alive In custody, worried that he would cop a plea bargain and spill, they sent Ruby to do the dirty deed as Ruby owed them.

That's my theory.

tude dog;1439223 wrote: Re: JFK so called conspiricy solved.

Quote Originally Posted by tude dog View Post

just writing a response, thought I deleted it

Thought the better of it, hey?

What happened was I was in the middle of a lengthy comment and decided to not put a foot in that bucket of sh+t, again. By accident I posted it. I really didn't want to revisit all the old/tired arguments seen, heard and what not.

Not to keep you in suspense, it is clear to me

Lee Harvey Oswald alone murdered President Kennedy.

This is a really the best book concerning the murder.

Case Closed


I think this may be why people still speculate on the issue

The JFK assassination story provides a useful benchmark in this debate because it is one area where a broad consensus holds that secrecy is not appropriate. If the Congress wants to demonstrate that it has the power to insure accountability at Obama's CIA, the JFK assassination records are a good place to start.

Congress did just that in 1992. In response to the furor raised by Oliver Stone's JFK, a Democratic Congress unanimously approved the JFK Records Act mandating "immediate" disclosure of all of the government's JFK files. A Republican president, George H.W. Bush, signed it into law.


Jefferson Morley: John Brennan and the CIA's Last JFK Secrets

Lee Harvey Oswald's widow Marina convinced husband did NOT kill JFK | Mail Online

oscar;1439273 wrote: Everything I have ever read makes me believe LHO was a Patsy. Witness's saw Jack Ruby and LHO drinking together In Ruby's bar. They were friends but not big time mobsters. Ruby was a small time gangster with Mob connections and I believe It was Indeed the Mob who ordered the hit In connection with Robert Kennedy's oath to crack down on organised crime.

LHO just happened to fit the criteria. A Marksman and I believe vulnerable.

They probably believed SS would take out LHO on the day yet when they had him alive In custody, worried that he would cop a plea bargain and spill, they sent Ruby to do the dirty deed as Ruby owed them.

That's my theory.


Everything I have read, (quite a lot), makes me agree with you. I haven't read Bugliosi's book nor this latest one, but I don't think they would change my mind.

ZAP;1439386 wrote: Everything I have read, (quite a lot), makes me agree with you. I haven't read Bugliosi's book nor this latest one, but I don't think they would change my mind.


Mind you... this does make It look as If the fatal shot came from the front.

JFK Assasination in Colour (HD) Slow Motion and Frame by Frame - YouTube

oscar;1439389 wrote: Mind you... this does make It look as If the fatal shot came from the front.

JFK Assasination in Colour (HD) Slow Motion and Frame by Frame - YouTube


Look at frame 312 and 313.

it came from rear

Oh wow just watching the doco now ....it all makes sense and why there are soooooo many conspiricy theories. Seems yanks aren't so silly after all. You all knew something wasn't right ...and you were right .



And this boggles the mind .....in fifty years this detective is the first trained detective to investigate this incident since it was committed....WTF?

I implore you to watch this, it's not far fetched or over the top at all . Just pure police work. Way too boring for the rest of us. But the results? WOW!!!

Yes Oswald shot him. But the 'official' ballistics facts are wrong. The cover up from the secret service is what started all the stupid conspiricy thoughts. If they just had of said "oops" in the first place we wouldn't be talking about this at all.

What's really sad is that Kennedy could have survived the first two clumsy shots. The first a richochet shot because Oswald missed. The second through his back and exits through his upper chest hitting the senator. The third shot at ground level as testified by senators, senators wives, secret service agents and the general public a the sight of the shooting. AND Hickey himself says he picked up the firearm ....but omits shooting it. They have a picture of him with the fire arm at the time of the second shot, he testifies that he didn't pick it up until they got to the overpass.......Ummm wrong!!!. Basically he blew half the presidents head off. No pic of him taking aim though. It really could have been an accident. Poor barstard. But that's what you get when you're the garage guy who only joins the secret service 4 months before the shooting and is in charge of getting the motorcade ready........

I really would recommend this doco . Proper police work with the know how of the 21st century. Looks like Donohue was correct.

You talk as though It's some huge revelation. It's not. The theory has been out there for years. In the main dismissed as conspiricy theories but none the less, It was out there.

The only difference today Is that there Is de-classified Information that for 50 years was classified.

In fact, Zap and I had a very lengthy debate on this some years ago on another forum.

This video for example was posted In 2008.

Driver shoot JFK - YouTube

Those " Yanks " have been ahead of the game for decades. They just couldn't get the classified Info.

I'm far more Interested In something that appears to have been a cover up.

Jack Ruby gave his reason for killing LHO as ' He killed my President'. Yet an FBI agent spoke to him outside Parkland Memorial Hospital where JFK had been rushed. What was he doing at the hospital ? Yet unbelievably, the Warren report believed Ruby over the FBI agent when he denied being there. And again, what was Ruby doing at the basement of The Dallas Police Headquarters? Bearing In mind, once In custody, LHO had already received various death threats from the public and was under heavy guard. Added to the fact that Ruby was once an FBI Informant. Why was he allowed In that basement as LHO was being transfered to the County Jail...

Your rudeness is astounding. At least follow the thread and what the OP said.

The conspiricy is not in the main facts it's the aftermath of the incident. At least read what I have put here. ..and if you're interested watch the Doco. Otherwise I don't understand why you're even posting in this thread .

You have not addressed my last post at all only criticised me.

fuzzywuzzy;1439418 wrote: Your rudeness is astounding. At least follow the thread and what the OP said.

The conspiricy is not in the main facts it's the aftermath of the incident. At least read what I have put here. ..and if you're interested watch the Doco. Otherwise I don't understand why you're even posting in this thread .

You have not addressed my last post at all only criticised me.


Calm down.

I am merely pointing out to you that doco or no doco, the theory has been out there for years. Now some records have become public, they can look for verification of that theory.

I don't see any criticism at all unless you feel slighted that Americans might have discovered this before your amazing discovery on youtube.

oscar;1439396 wrote: You talk as though It's some huge revelation. It's not. The theory has been out there for years. In the main dismissed as conspiricy theories but none the less, It was out there.

The only difference today Is that there Is de-classified Information that for 50 years was classified.

In fact, Zap and I had a very lengthy debate on this some years ago on another forum.

This video for example was posted In 2008.

Driver shoot JFK - YouTube

Those " Yanks " have been ahead of the game for decades. They just couldn't get the classified Info.

I'm far more Interested In something that appears to have been a cover up.

Jack Ruby gave his reason for killing LHO as ' He killed my President'. Yet an FBI agent spoke to him outside Parkland Memorial Hospital where JFK had been rushed. What was he doing at the hospital ? Yet unbelievably, the Warren report believed Ruby over the FBI agent when he denied being there. And again, what was Ruby doing at the basement of The Dallas Police Headquarters? Bearing In mind, once In custody, LHO had already received various death threats from the public and was under heavy guard. Added to the fact that Ruby was once an FBI Informant. Why was he allowed In that basement as LHO was being transfered to the County Jail...SnoozeAgain;1439423 wrote: I don't see any criticism at all unless you feel slighted that Americans might have discovered this before your amazing discovery on youtube.Of course you don't.

The highlighted comment was completely unnecessary. Perhaps it is a new revelation for some people. The two of you have piled on her enough. Lay off!

That has to be the most ironic thing I've ever read here. :yh_rotfl

Ahso!;1439434 wrote: Of course you don't.

The highlighted comment was completely unnecessary. Perhaps it is a new revelation for some people. The two of you have piled on her enough. Lay off!


You know, If you were anyone else here, I'd say your post could be viewed as trying to help Fuzzy.

You're not. You have trolled myself and Snooze and jumped on what you think Is a bandwagon.

You don't even post with Fuzzy nor know anything about her.

What you have actually done, Is deliberately come In here after the Obama thread you trolled us to and thought you'd cause some trouble and In the process, you are deliberately trashing this thread.

Go away and allow this thread to stay on topic. Everyone here see's what you are deliberately doing.

Quit the trolling.

You're on Ignore so for the sake of this thread, we will no longer be playing your games.

You have an awesome day now.

oscar;1439389 wrote: Mind you... this does make It look as If the fatal shot came from the front.

JFK Assasination in Colour (HD) Slow Motion and Frame by Frame - YouTube


Where would they get HD colour film of the event from

Bryn Mawr;1439441 wrote: Where would they get HD colour film of the event from


I have no Idea !!!

There Is so much on the Internet that It's a minefield of what Is genuine and what Is not.

Something else that they claim Is a cover -up Is ' The missing autopsy photograph'. which theorists claim shows the front of the skull was the entry point not the exit.