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Quoting "anonymous sources" to make unsubstantiated claims is bad form :-

EU referendum: Palace complains over Queen 'Brexit' story - BBC News

The Sun doesn't 'Do' News, the Sun 'Does' Headlines, based on the idea that the headline will be seen by more people than actually read the article and it is indelibly ingrained in many minds now that the Queen wants out............................job done?

Does anyone actually care what the queen thinks?

gmc;1493576 wrote: Does anyone actually care what the queen thinks?


Sadly.....yes.

One would have to be extremely naive to believe that the Queen has Politically Neutral views. Expressing her views in public, however, is a totally different thing. Of course she has her views, and has every right to them. However, as was mentioned on Question Time last night, the Sun was not wrong in publishing the item - that is the duty of the Press. The blame is really down to whoever it was that leaked the story about what was said in confidence within the Privy Chamber.

Leaks, as we know, are not uncommon within Government & are frequently used as an unofficial way of giving a Press Release. However, the fact remains that whatever information is leaked, unless it has official approval, it is a breach of the Official Secrets Act, yet when was the last time anyone heard of a Government Official actually being prosecuted for doing so? I remember there was once an episode of "Yes Minister" (or "Yes Prime Minister") where it was said that it was standard procedure to set up a Leaks Enquiry as a way of sweeping everything under the carpet without having any intention of ever actually discovering anything. I can't help feeling that most things in that series were much closer to the truth than we might believe.

FourPart;1493611 wrote: One would have to be extremely naive to believe that the Queen has Politically Neutral views. Expressing her views in public, however, is a totally different thing. Of course she has her views, and has every right to them. However, as was mentioned on Question Time last night, the Sun was not wrong in publishing the item - that is the duty of the Press. The blame is really down to whoever it was that leaked the story about what was said in confidence within the Privy Chamber.

Leaks, as we know, are not uncommon within Government & are frequently used as an unofficial way of giving a Press Release. However, the fact remains that whatever information is leaked, unless it has official approval, it is a breach of the Official Secrets Act, yet when was the last time anyone heard of a Government Official actually being prosecuted for doing so? I remember there was once an episode of "Yes Minister" (or "Yes Prime Minister") where it was said that it was standard procedure to set up a Leaks Enquiry as a way of sweeping everything under the carpet without having any intention of ever actually discovering anything. I can't help feeling that most things in that series were much closer to the truth than we might believe.


The story is as likely to be invented rather than leaked - quoting "anonymous sources" is a get out if ever I heard one and the complain was that the incident never happened, not that it should not have been published.

Michael Gove has refused to deny that he was an "Anonymous Source".

Wonder what they will have to say abouty this?

ALEX BRUMMER on the sale of the London Stock Exchange to the Germans | Daily Mail Online

gmc;1493812 wrote: Wonder what they will have to say abouty this?

ALEX BRUMMER on the sale of the London Stock Exchange to the Germans | Daily Mail Online


I agree - they might have passed it off as a merger of equals but the result will still be majority owned by the Germans.

I might be ignorant, but isn't the London Stock Exchange an arm of the UK banking system, a Government agency ?

Bruv;1493817 wrote: I might be ignorant, but isn't the London Stock Exchange an arm of the UK banking system, a Government agency ?


Nope never has been. Governments used to regulate it though and still could if it wanted to. The cynic in me suspects they are hedging their bets ready to shift the exchange from london in the event of a brexit.

That's like selling off all the country's utilities to the French...................just couldn't happen.............could it ?

Bruv;1493823 wrote: That's like selling off all the country's utilities to the French...................just couldn't happen.............could it ?


Might not be so irritating if they had been privately owned in the first place.

Just a matter of interest............................

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campa ... heck-video

G#Gill;1494657 wrote: Just a matter of interest............................

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campa ... heck-video


If the leaflet had been a bit more balanced, like that, giving both Pros & Cons, there wouldn't have been so much of a problem about it. Whether you are for or against the EU, there are valid arguments both ways. The public needs to know the KNOWN advantages / disadvantages of staying / leaving, not unknown factors of what "might" happen. After all, if we were to leave the EU, we MIGHT get invaded by Martians & then where would we be without the EU to come to our defence? We need demonstrable FACTS, not guesswork & scaremongering.

EU referendum: Michael Gove says he 'doesn't mind' if Brexit campaign costs him his Cabinet career | UK Politics | News | The Independent

“I don't mind if my Cabinet career is over," Mr Gove added.

Neither do I, Mr Gove. Neither do I.

Was watching report from wales about the steel closures surprisingly europe is getting the blame for that as well.

I really hope we don't vote to leave. The overwhelming majority of businesses that actually export things are in favour of remaining.

Here we go

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -call.html

Scotland could keep England in the EU against its will, experts warn as polls suggest the referendum result is too close to call




So what happened to we are all in it together and it's the uk as a whole that will decide. If england wants independence maybe this is your chance.

gmc;1496988 wrote: Was watching report from wales about the steel closures surprisingly europe is getting the blame for that as well.

I really hope we don't vote to leave. The overwhelming majority of businesses that actually export things are in favour of remaining.

Here we go

Scotland could keep England in the EU against its will warn polling experts | Daily Mail Online



So what happened to we are all in it together and it's the uk as a whole that will decide. If england wants independence maybe this is your chance.


More than a little insulting I think

How reliable are the blooming polls anyway ?

Bruv;1496995 wrote: How reliable are the blooming polls anyway ?


How reliable were they at the last election?

I reckon the most reliable polls are likely to be those done by the bookies. They're the ones whose profits rely on accurate forecasting.

Ladbrokes show things as pretty close, but with a definite lead towards Leave.

https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/bett ... 220800266/

FourPart;1497007 wrote: I reckon the most reliable polls are likely to be those done by the bookies. They're the ones whose profits rely on accurate forecasting.

Ladbrokes show things as pretty close, but with a definite lead towards Leave.

https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/bett ... 220800266/


How do you get that?

From your link :-

Referendum result

Remain 8/15

Leave 6/4

Bryn Mawr;1496996 wrote: How reliable were they at the last election?


Persactly !!!

Bryn Mawr;1497011 wrote: How do you get that?

From your link :-

Referendum result

Remain 8/15

Leave 6/4


Here you are HERE

Bruv;1497014 wrote: Here you are HERE


So all of the bookies have remain as the odds on outcome

Bryn Mawr;1497011 wrote: How do you get that?

From your link :-

Referendum result

Remain 8/15

Leave 6/4


My misreading of odds. But the principal of most reliable polls still holds true. The bookies aren't really going to be biased one way or the other.

The entire country is going to vote on the 23rd but the results will be totaled. The majority of those who vote will decide the issue for everyone.

Some have said the Scots might thereby decide England's future by pushing the result one way or the other. I don't think this brings the problem into sufficient focus. I can't see why the votes counted in Essex should affect the result in Cornwall or vice versa.

I think the votes should be totaled by county, and each county should either Leave the EU or Remain in the EU depending on that county's majority.

That's far more fair.

You might like to discuss the beneficial consequences among yourselves.

spot;1497127 wrote: The entire country is going to vote on the 23rd but the results will be totaled.


*Pedantry alert*

The entire population of an eligible age is able to vote on 23rd...................whether they do or not is something else.



spot;1497127 wrote: You might like to discuss the beneficial consequences among yourselves.
No thanks.

Bruv;1497129 wrote: *Pedantry alert*

The entire population of an eligible age is able to vote on 23rd...................whether they do or not is something else.


Pedantry Alert 2

Those who are of eligible age AND who are UK citizens are able to vote. EU migrants do not get to vote (unlike Local & General Elections) - except for Ireland, Malta & Cyprus, who are part of the Commonwealth.

FourPart;1497198 wrote: Pedantry Alert 2

Those who are of eligible age AND who are UK citizens are able to vote.
Provided they've been resident in the UK within the last ten years. I expect there are provisos about not currently serving a prison sentence too.

We may be the fith largest economy etc etc. The thing is had we not joined the EU we would be a sad little bankrupt nation (having sold all our assets to foreigners) off the coast of europe. I blame thatcher for nitb all that;'s when the rot breally set in.

Switzerland have withdrawn their application for membership of the EU. What have they seen from the outside that made them turn their nose up ?

Iceland had previously withdrawn an application.

It's going to be interesting to see how those in the middle will decide which side they are going to drop.

Do you side with Cameron and Osborne or with Farage and Boris ? Who do we believe most....or least ?

I am still not totally convinced either way.

Snowfire;1497217 wrote: Switzerland have withdrawn their application for membership of the EU. What have they seen from the outside that made them turn their nose up ?

Iceland had previously withdrawn an application.

It's going to be interesting to see how those in the middle will decide which side they are going to drop.

Do you side with Cameron and Osborne or with Farage and Boris ? Who do we believe most....or least ?


Farage, Cameron, Boris and Osborne in that order.

As to the arguments from the two sides, they both put forward unsupported scare stories and rubbish the other side without giving reasoned argument why - why should we believe any of them?

Do you own research and make your mind up based on that - I have and I know which way I'll be voting.

Bryn Mawr;1497233 wrote: Farage, Cameron, Boris and Osborne in that order.

As to the arguments from the two sides, they both put forward unsupported scare stories and rubbish the other side without giving reasoned argument why - why should we believe any of them?

Do you own research and make your mind up based on that - I have and I know which way I'll be voting.


Well bully for you. Pat yourself on the back.

Mark Carney, the Governor of the bank of England puts the case for staying in. Sir Mervyn King, the previous Governor of the Bank of England puts a case for leaving.

If two prominent economists in high positions cant agree what will happen one way or another, I'm buggered how anyone like me can make an informed decision, one way or another

Who do we believe most....or least ?
Farage, Cameron, Boris and Osborne in that order.


Is that from least believable to most or the other way round ?

Bruv;1497222 wrote: I am still not totally convinced either way.


I'm sick of being lied to by both sides and how anyone can rank politicians on how much or little they may or may not have lied is beyond me. Are their lips moving...Yes ! Then they're lying.

They all get to gain something out of this, either way.

When this is over, I hope we get to find out who has led us down the garden path and we get to kick their arse...Good and proper.

I think I know which way I am going to vote, but I am still unconvinced.

I am not sure if it is because of the personalities or the arguments they are making.

What I'm also worried about is, that if we leave, that arsehole of a Chancellor, will rub our noses in more austerity to show us that his predictions about how bad it would get, were true.

He's a special kind of arsehole, a slimy arsehole. If we are going to rank arseholes, then lets put him at the top

Snowfire;1497240 wrote: When this is over, I hope we get to find out who has led us down the garden path and we get to kick their arse...Good and proper.


I don't honestly think they are lying as such, it is very much a point of view and interpretation of possible consequences.

I'll be voting to stay in, a UK run by boris ad farage would be a nightmare.

They have yet to come up with one single eu regulation that prevents a company doing business.

Snowfire;1497240 wrote: When this is over, I hope we get to find out who has led us down the garden path and we get to kick their arse...Good and proper.


Whoever wins will have led us down the garden path because that's the garden path we'll be traveling down and it will not match their promises. The other side will say their garden path, if only we'd set foot on it, led directly to sugar candy mountain, and they'd told us so at the time.

I'll be unhappy to see Leave win but I fear it seems likely.

I've done a thing I never thought would happen and voted in support of so-called David Cameron. I voted Remain in the long-term interest of the country and of Europe (though against my own personal benefit, which I think is rather good of me).

spot;1497253 wrote: Whoever wins will have led us down the garden path because that's the garden path we'll be traveling down and it will not match their promises. The other side will say their garden path, if only we'd set foot on it, led directly to sugar candy mountain, and they'd told us so at the time.

I'll be unhappy to see Leave win but I fear it seems likely.

I've done a thing I never thought would happen and voted in support of so-called David Cameron. I voted Remain in the long-term interest of the country and of Europe (though against my own personal benefit, which I think is rather good of me).


For a 'so-called' intelligent person a vote for remain isn't a vote for David Cameron, my fear is that less intelligent people may vote in the same way......for a personality.

Tonight Cameron's performance was very good I thought, he got very passionate, unlike how Corbyn came across earlier in the day.

Bruv;1497255 wrote: For a 'so-called' intelligent person a vote for remain isn't a vote for David Cameron, my fear is that less intelligent people may vote in the same way......for a personality.If you look you'll see I didn't say I voted for the little squit, I voted in support of him. It's a vote in support of him because if Remain wins, he'll be allowed by the party to resign when he chooses before 2020 instead of being out on his ear in September. My reason for voting in support of him, if you reed what I wrote, is that I want the country to remain in Europe, not that I want the man to remain in office. You have entirely mistaken my motive despite my making it plain in my post.

Wriggle as much as you like.....your words ......."I've done a thing I never thought would happen and voted in support of so-called David Cameron."

You haven't voted in support of him.............simple.

You just happen to support the same idea......namely remain in the EU.

You have blurred support for the idea as support for the personalities supporting that idea.

There are people with less intelligence than yourself that will support the beer swilling straight talking Farage, and the bumbling Boris, because they like the cut of their jib.

You have the foresight and intelligence to split the personality from the issue on the table........many others wont be able to do that.....and vote out on that basis.

You know without the human rights act and the european courts we would never have got to the bottom of the hillsborough disaster or those resdponsible held to account, with a bit of time we might even get to the bottom of what happend at the orgreave colliery that day also because of european courts and the human rights act. Do I want something in place to defend me from the actions of my giovernment? Dead right I do one of the first acts of the brexit campaign will be to repeal the human rights act.

If you celebrated justice for Hillsborough, you have to support the European Convention on Human Rights | Voices | The Independent

Snowfire;1497238 wrote: Well bully for you. Pat yourself on the back.

Mark Carney, the Governor of the bank of England puts the case for staying in. Sir Mervyn King, the previous Governor of the Bank of England puts a case for leaving.

If two prominent economists in high positions cant agree what will happen one way or another, I'm buggered how anyone like me can make an informed decision, one way or another


By ignoring the soundbytes and seeking out those articles where the two sides have given detailed reasoning to back up their claims - few and far between but they do exist.

Even the clever ones are not too sure..............Baroness Warsi .....Lord Guthrie

It's the hokey cokey......In...out....in... out... shake it all about

Bruv;1497268 wrote: Even the clever ones are not too sure..............Baroness Warsi .....Lord Guthrie

It's the hokey cokey......In...out....in... out... shake it all about


The stock and currency markets are sure - the polls move toward remain and the pound surges against every other currency :-

BBC NEWS | Business | Market Data | Currencies | Sterling GBP v US Dollar USD

The pound has made strong gains against the dollar - BBC News

and the footsie also jumps :-

BBC NEWS | Business | Market Data | Stock Markets | London Stock Exchange LSE | FTSE 100 UKX

At least some of the lies are being exposed *before* the vote takes place :-

Nissan is taking legal action against Leave campaign - BBC News