What is a Christian?

[Ted]

nvalleyvee:-6

Finding the Risen Lord is an experiential reality. How to get there? I was raised in the church and had many opportunities to see around me others who had the same experience. I have seen what such a belief does for people. I have witnessed and experienced what I would call miracles.I firmly believe that I have experienced the Risen Lord. Some would say coincidence but they have not had my experiences so their judgment is simply invalid.

We add to that the life and teachings Jesus which are very hard to deny as a valid way of living. However, we must be careful in reading the quotations, in the Gospels that supposedly come from the historical Jesus. About 20% have been traced back to the him. The others are not an attempt to deceive or anything like that. They are words put into the mouth of Jesus out of their experiences with the Historical Jesus. They are what the church had come to believe at the time of writing. It was considered at the time a very valid way of doing things. There was a whole different attitude to writing things at that time. For instance some of the letters attributed to Paul were not written by him but probably by followers of Paul. It was quite acceptable back then to write under the name of you teacher

If you want further explanations I can and will give them..

Shalom

Ted:-6

[nvalleyvee]

Yes Ted - I would like further information - we may be saying the same thing. I know I felt the person you call the risen Lord during an out-of-body experience. I do not believe our souls die with our bodies. AS a scientist I do absolutely believe that energy cannot die (the energy that is our mind and soul) it "goes" elsewhere. I have a simple belief that energy that is me goes to what Christians call heaven and Jung calls the collective unconscious. We go to a place that makes us one with the people who let us behind. We are not angels nor are we reincarnated - we simply exist with all of mankind that has come before our death.

[Ted]

nvalleyvee:-6

I can go along with that.

Quantum theory brings us even closer to the truth.

I will give further info but perhaps you could ask so questions.

Tonight it is getting late so will be on again.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[nvalleyvee]

Good night - you made my evening.

[theia]

nvalleyvee wrote: Yes Ted - I would like further information - we may be saying the same thing. I know I felt the person you call the risen Lord during an out-of-body experience. I do not believe our souls die with our bodies. AS a scientist I do absolutely believe that energy cannot die (the energy that is our mind and soul) it "goes" elsewhere. I have a simple belief that energy that is me goes to what Christians call heaven and Jung calls the collective unconscious. We go to a place that makes us one with the people who let us behind. We are not angels nor are we reincarnated - we simply exist with all of mankind that has come before our death.


I would really like to hear more about what you posted, nvalleyvee, as I am interested in quantum physics (only from a very lay perspective!), very committed to Jung's ideas and philosophy, and meditation. I approach the latter from a Christian point of view, I think, and find works such as The Spiritual Canticle (St John of the Cross) very valuable (though difficult to understand).

[nvalleyvee]

OMG Theia - I would love to talk with you about my beliefs. This really surprised me..... Cool

[theia]

nvalleyvee wrote: OMG Theia - I would love to talk with you about my beliefs. This really surprised me..... Cool


Me too! Thank you. Off to get ready for work now but would very much like to talk later...

[Ted]

What is a Christian?

Definitely not Pat Robertson.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[ldsguy]

ldsguy wrote: Without a doubt much of modern Christianity is far from what Jesus Christ intended it to be. That was prophesised from the early days. Apostacy set in right from the start. Today we have hundreds of denominations of "so called " Christianity.

One major one is more based on Babylonian/Greek mystery religion than the teachings of Christ.

Legions of Nominal Christians Make mockery of Christianity.

However, many people do try hard to live the teachings of Jesus. Many do care about the poor and the persecuted. It is totally wrong to paint all of Christianity with the same brush. To destroy Christianity, as one person posting on this thread wants, means throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

To me a Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ. The Christ of the Bible. Believes He is the Son of God. Believes all he taught as found in the Scriptures. Is prepared to do as He requires, which involves Baptism for the remission of Sin. Then tries to live his/her life as close as possible to His teachings. It is NOT (as the World Council of Churches would have us believe), those who accept Church Dogma - such as belief in the Creeds. We should not blame Christianity for the mess we humans have made of it. We can't solve all the worlds problems and the poor will always be with us (Jesus words) We must await His second coming to correct the mess the world is in. We should do all we can in our limited way to help others."The second greatest commandment is....love your fellow man as yourself, this is all the law and the prophets".

Satan is real! He loves to hear all the anti-Christian slurs. He loves it when Christianity is cursed. Believe in Christ. Trust in Christ. Don't be turned away by those who slander. Millions of Peoples lives have changed for the better by following Chirst and the religion He founded.


Absolutley! I agree with you 100%. Christianity is exactly what you say. the mess people have made of it does not change the truth. Sure modern christianity is a mess. But it started being a mess soon after the time of the primitive apostles. Just as they themselves prophesised. The world is generaly abandoning true christianity, and the world is suffering the consequencies of that. Those who advocate abandoning christianity would do better encouraging people to seek the truths to be found in the scriptures, and live in accordance with them. Satan would be very happy if we abandoned Christ and His teaching. Those who think we should give up on christianity because it is not practised as it should be, are playing right into Satan,s hand.

[Ted]

tmbsgr:-6

Enen though I am often criticized for being of the emerging Christian paradigm I can agree with that post. Wonderful.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[nvalleyvee]

tmbsgrl wrote: [. It’s the responsibility to keep the greatest commandment: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself (Luke 10: 25-28


I am a non-believer as Jesus as MY saviour and I have doubts about a God. I do believe that mankind has had to find a way to get along with the neighbor that is also mankind. Religious differences seem to cause a multitude of problems. My religion is better and more holy than yours. I see great words of wisdom in all the religious texts. They teach compassion, love, morality, virtue and a multitide of other ways to live as a society - peacefully and with grace towards each others belief. Why do we need to fight about it? Acceptance and grace appear to be our saviour as a human community.

[Ted]

nvallelyvee:-6

Matthew Fox calls for a "deep ecumenism" where members of all the great faith, respect and accept the validity of each one's faith and that we see the God who is in everyone.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[nvalleyvee]

Ted wrote: nvallelyvee:-6

Matthew Fox calls for a "deep ecumenism" where members of all the great faith, respect and accept the validity of each one's faith and that we see the God who is in everyone.

Shalom

Ted:-6


I do not know who Matthew Fox is and I do not know the definition of ecumenism. I am assuming you agree with me that all faiths are REAL to the believers of those faiths. I am also going to assume you believe all faiths are valid in believing their "God" is a universal being kindred to all faiths.

[gimli3]

:-5

I think that you have had very bad church experiences -- I do sympathise with you: so many of us have been there.

Some friends of mine advised me to find out about SpiritualAbuse, and this helped enormously to understand the difference between Church and Christ. Why don't you find this site on the net:

www.spiritualabuse.com



Hope this can be useful -- remember, there are others who understand.

[Ted]

nvalleyvee:-6

That's close enough to what I meant.. Dr. Fox is a theologian who lives in California.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[naty2005]

ldsguy wrote: Without a doubt much of modern Christianity is far from what Jesus Christ intended it to be. That was prophesised from the early days. Apostacy set in right from the start. Today we have hundreds of denominations of "so called " Christianity.

One major one is more based on Babylonian/Greek mystery religion than the teachings of Christ.

Legions of Nominal Christians Make mockery of Christianity.

However, many people do try hard to live the teachings of Jesus. Many do care about the poor and the persecuted. It is totally wrong to paint all of Christianity with the same brush. To destroy Christianity, as one person posting on this thread wants, means throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

To me a Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ. The Christ of the Bible. Believes He is the Son of God. Believes all he taught as found in the Scriptures. Is prepared to do as He requires, which involves Baptism for the remission of Sin. Then tries to live his/her life as close as possible to His teachings. It is NOT (as the World Council of Churches would have us believe), those who accept Church Dogma - such as belief in the Creeds. We should not blame Christianity for the mess we humans have made of it. We can't solve all the worlds problems and the poor will always be with us (Jesus words) We must await His second coming to correct the mess the world is in. We should do all we can in our limited way to help others."The second greatest commandment is....love your fellow man as yourself, this is all the law and the prophets".

Satan is real! He loves to hear all the anti-Christian slurs. He loves it when Christianity is cursed. Believe in Christ. Trust in Christ. Don't be turned away by those who slander. Millions of Peoples lives have changed for the better by following Chirst and the religion He founded.
Amen to that. We have to be careful because we are responsible for our own salvation. We can't make excuses because of how other people are behaving. I trust in Christ and I know that because of him I can go to him for forgiveness. This is an ongoing thing until christ comes back and changes us comepletely. Amen;)

[Runner4thePrize]

I read this whole thread and found one thing to be true. there are as many differing opinions as there are posts here. That is not a bad thing, it simply proves that mankind is stumbling around in darkness.

The New Testament speaks of the "mystery". Truth is a mystery to those who have not been truly Born Again through water the Blood of Jesus.

Just an observation from the sidelines......:yh_pray

[Ted]

Perhaps

Shalom

Ted:-6

[cindy28]

A christian to me is someone the believes that christ died for your sins. Some one who has repented of sinnful ways and enjoys reading the bible. Someone who loves gods word.

[weber]

Runner4thePrize wrote: I read this whole thread and found one thing to be true. there are as many differing opinions as there are posts here. That is not a bad thing, it simply proves that mankind is stumbling around in darkness.

The New Testament speaks of the "mystery". Truth is a mystery to those who have not been truly Born Again through water the Blood of Jesus.

Just an observation from the sidelines......:yh_pray


What exactly do you mean by what is in red?

[RedGlitter]

For me, a christian is someone who believes in Jesus and subscribes to the bible. Period. That means there are "bad" christians and "good" christians too. I don't think just following the golden rule makes one a christian at all. You can be of any faith and follow that, it's a social rule, not a specific biblical rule. Honorable as it is.



I hope that comment about being a pagan wasn't meant in a bad way. Pagans are very good people as a lot.

[spot]

I'm reminded of that extraordinary moment in Mark 9:38,39: "John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in Thy name: and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not."

John Wesley preached a sermon on that text which concluded "let the case be proposed in the strongest manner. What, if I were to see a Papist, an Arian, a Socinian casting out devils? If I did, I could not forbid even him, without convicting myself of bigotry. Yea, if it could be supposed that I should see a Jew, a Deist, or a Turk, doing the same, were I to forbid him either directly or indirectly, I should be no better than a bigot still."

It's a very strange text, to be sure. Did Mark add "in Thy name" because, by the time of his Gospel, that had become the Christian dogmatic formula? Or was there at least one Christian faction entirely independent of the disciples which was successfully casting out devils even while Jesus was still alive - what price early church unity in that case? The answer's something of a stake through the heart of the Church doctrine of Apostolic Succession, either way.

As for who is a Christian, I never took the injunction in Luke 18 as specific to one man on one occasion, I think it's a general demand...

Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

[naty2005]

Webster’s Dictionary defines a Christian as “a person professing belief in Jesus as the Christ or in the religion based on the teaching of Jesus.” While this is a good starting point in understanding what a Christian is, like many secular definitions, it falls somewhat short of really communicating the biblical truth of what it means to be a Christian.



The word Christian is used three times in New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). Followers of Jesus Christ were first called “Christians” in Antioch (Acts 11:26) because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ. It was originally used by the unsaved people of Antioch as a kind of contemptuous nickname used to make fun of the Christians. It literally means, “belonging to the party of Christ” or an “adherent or follower of Christ,” which is very similar to the way Webster’s Dictionary defines it.



Unfortunately over time, the word "Christian" has lost a great deal of it significance and is often used of someone who is religious or has high moral values instead of a true born again follower of Jesus Christ. Many people who don’t believe and trust in Jesus Christ consider themselves Christians simply because they go to church or they live in a "Christian" nation. But going to church, serving those less fortunate than you, or being a good person does not make you a Christian. As one evangelist once said, “Going to church doesn’t make one a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes one an automobile.” Being a member of a church, attending services regularly, and giving to the work of the church cannot make you a Christian.



The Bible teaches us that the good works we do cannot make us acceptable to God. Titus 3:5 tells us that it is “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.” So, a Christian is someone who has been born-again by God (John 3:3; John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23) and has put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8 tells us that it is “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” A true Christian is someone who has repented of his or her sin and put faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone. Their trust is not in following a religion or a set of moral codes, or a list of do’s and don’ts.



A true Christian is a person who has put his or her faith and trust in the person of Jesus Christ and fact that He died on the cross as payment for sins and rose again on the third day to obtain victory over death and to give eternal life to all who believe in Him. John 1:12 tells us: “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.” A true Christian is indeed a child of God, a part of God’s true family, and one who has been given new life in Christ. The mark of a true Christian is love for others and obedience to God’s Word (1 John 2:4; 1 John 2:10).

[spot]

What you say, naty, is perfectly true from a literalist perspective, and nobody would say you're wrong. You're expelling nine out of ten from the congregations of the faithful worldwide, of course, declaring them hell-bound along with everyone else who knows the message of Jesus but refuses to respond in the way you've outlined. It's a question of whether you put the authority of God above the humanity of Jesus. In the world-view you paint I'm personally convinced that Jesus would walk out of the church you've created and start washing the feet of the outcasts, just as he did when faced with the self-righteousness of the pharisees. I can only hope that Christianity demands more and more the rigour you outline and dooms itself to self-isolation from the rest of the world. Living the life of Jesus is a lot more important in the here and now than adherence to your dogma. If I can succeed in doing that while refusing to reject those you throw away I'll go to hell with a smile on my face.

[naty2005]

Thanks Spot for your gentle answer.

[weber]

A Christian is a person who believes in Jesus as Savior, as God. Everything else is beteen the person and God. Born again Christians think they are the only ones saved..........more is the pity for such arrogance may place them at the far end of the table. Christ embraced all of creation, is head of all of creation. Only He gets to decide.

[spot]

naty2005 wrote: Thanks Spot for your gentle answer.
I'm pleased you recognised the restraint of my response.

Would you not agree that the majority of people alive today will suffer eternal torment in hell (as described graphically in the account of Dives and the beggar at the gate), for having known Christ's claim to be the only path to salvation and yet not "repented of his or her sin and put faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone"?

[Bez]

I guess my belief is that a Christian is someone who believes in God, Jesus, the teachings of the bible and lives their lives by the Ten Commandments. I actually believe it is as simple as that.



Although it would be good if every Christian went to church and worshipped there on a regular basis. I believe you can still lead a Christian life without attending church.

[cindy28]

Bez wrote: I guess my belief is that a Christian is someone who believes in God, Jesus, the teachings of the bible and lives their lives by the Ten Commandments. I actually believe it is as simple as that.



Although it would be good if every Christian went to church and worshipped there on a regular basis. I believe you can still lead a Christian life without attending church.


Being a christian is not simple , its far from that. To follow the 10 commandments is impossiable. If you think of any one of the ten commandments you are sinning. no one is perfect.

[naty2005]

spot wrote: I'm pleased you recognised the restraint of my response.

Would you not agree that the majority of people alive today will suffer eternal torment in hell (as described graphically in the account of Dives and the beggar at the gate), for having known Christ's claim to be the only path to salvation and yet not "repented of his or her sin and put faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone"?


THATS A BIG YES!!

[weber]

naty2005 wrote: THATS A BIG YES!!


It makes me sad naty (spot too)

that you have so low an opinion of so many other people. You must be a very negative person to hold such a view. I think a lot more people are going to heaven than you think and I suspect that you will be quite surprised who they are.

[zinkyusa]

What if I don't feel like associating Jesus as Christ. How about if I just say Christ is all of God's son's which we are all and Jesus was just an older brother. The only dif is that he learned his lesson of complete oneness or love perfectly while we are all still working on it here the illusion we call the physical universe..

Dang, it's getting hot in here...:yh_worry

[naty2005]

weber wrote: It makes me sad naty (spot too)

that you have so low an opinion of so many other people. You must be a very negative person to hold such a view. I think a lot more people are going to heaven than you think and I suspect that you will be quite surprised who they are.


You don't like to hear the truth but your telling me I have a low oppinion of people

no I don't when did I say that. I said it before open up the bible ask God to reveal His word to you. You can't have the father without the son and you can't deny his word because that is his heart and mind. The word says renew your minds in the word so we may have the mind of Christ.

[zinkyusa]

naty2005 wrote: Jesus is the only way to heaven Jesus said it not me.


No I don't believe he did.

[Marie5656]

Can one not believe or follow the bible's teachings and still consider themselves a Christian?

I have been told that I could not consider myself a "good" Christian because I am tolerant of those who I should not be tolerant of (Love thy Neighbor) and I refuse to judge people based on what thier beliefs are. If a persons beliefs are not the same as mine, then I will respect them.

I was told once that I was wrong to have an interest in learning about other religeons..that it would just make me "confused" about my own faith. I am not a "good Christian" as I do not attend church, I believe all people have rights..including gays, and I am not sure I believe everything that is written in the bible.

But, am I a bad person then? And is there a difference between being a bad Christian and a bad person???

[zinkyusa]

Marie5656 wrote: Can one not believe or follow the bible's teachings and still consider themselves a Christian?

I have been told that I could not consider myself a "good" Christian because I am tolerant of those who I should not be tolerant of (Love thy Neighbor) and I refuse to judge people based on what thier beliefs are. If a persons beliefs are not the same as mine, then I will respect them.

I was told once that I was wrong to have an interest in hearning about other religeons..that it would just make me "confused" about my own faith. I am not a "good Christian" as I do not attend church, I believe all people have rights..including gays, and I am not sure I believe everything that is written in the bible.

But, am I a bad person then? And is there a difference between being a bad Christian and a bad person???


The reason Christian fundamentalists don't want you reading about other paths is because it might cause you to open you mind, see the contradictions of a literal interpratation of the Bible and threaten their own core beliefs. Ignorant, closed minded people depend on keeping others and even their own children ignorant to the point of threatening you with burning hellfire and calling you names..

[naty2005]

zinkyusa wrote: No I don't believe he did.


John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[zinkyusa]

naty2005 wrote: John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, Iam the way, the truth, and the life:no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Quoting from the Bible does not prove he really said that or meant that.

[naty2005]

zinkyusa wrote: Quoting from the Bible does not prove he really said that or meant that.
I pray that God will enlighten your heart that you may believe. Much love in Christ.

[zinkyusa]

naty2005 wrote: I pray that God will enlighten your heart that you may believe. Much love in Christ.


My heart is already enlightened and I do believe something. It's just not what you believe. Thanks for the prayer though.

[gmc]

If there is only one god then surely there is only one heaven and one hell.

All other monotheistic faiths must have the same heaven and the same hell otherwise you all believe there is more than one god.

Since heaven is going to be full of people that believe they are the only ones that should be there I reckon that after the end of days that you all believe in it is going to take you about half an hour before you all start fighting again and get chucked out again.

Pagans used to call the christian god the selfish god because he laid claim to all and laid waste those that did not join-or was that just the believers carrying christs message on the point of a sword?

posted by spot

Would you not agree that the majority of people alive today will suffer eternal torment in hell (as described graphically in the account of Dives and the beggar at the gate), for having known Christ's claim to be the only path to salvation and yet not "repented of his or her sin and put faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone"?




Well and good is only religious people would stop trying to make life miserable for non believers while we are on earth.

[weber]

naty2005 wrote: You don't like to hear the truth but your telling me I have a low oppinion of people

no I don't when did I say that. I said it before open up the bible ask God to reveal His word to you. You can't have the father without the son and you can't deny his word because that is his heart and mind. The word says renew your minds in the word so we may have the mind of Christ.


Sorry naty

but you say I don't like to hear the truth but that is not true. Just because you say it does not make it the truth, maybe the truth for you but not necessarily for everybody. I just do not believe that there is only one truth and anybody who believes anything else is not believing the truth. I think we need to believe in one another whatever our truth is. If somebody's truth is to kill or main or to hurt others, I don't go with that but we are all good people in here. Whatever your truth is, I will defend your right to believe it. I also will defend my right to believe my truth.

[naty2005]

zinkyusa wrote: My heart is already enlightened and I do believe something. It's just not what you believe. Thanks for the prayer though.


Your welcome. What do you believe??

[zinkyusa]

naty2005 wrote: Your welcome. What do you believe??


Ok since you asked I'll give my abridged version:)

I believe that there is true reality and that reality is God and equals total oneness.

This is a concept not graspable by the human brain because it exists outside the fabric of time and space (our physical universe).

A "part" of this oneness made the impossibe decision to separate or split off from the oneness. This decsion set off a chain of splitting which created the physical universe as a place for our separated selves or egos to hide in. Fearing that God would come and get us to reclaim his own. In reality since oneness cannot really separate this never occurred, but we think that it has.

Thus, the physical reality we experience is nothing more than a great illusion in which we act out our lives over and over as a way of remaing separate from God.

Into the illusion two thousand years ago came Jesus to teach us that this was all an illusion and that we can all return at anytime. He demonstrated this by his life and illusion of death and initiated a plan of atonement or return. His message was that we are all perfect love and that the only difference was that he was only love while that perfection was only potential in us for now. We can safely call upon his name if we wish to for aid in our return but it is not necessary. There are many, many other paths which will take us path.

OK, that's not mine originally that is a summation from the particular path I follow becuase it works for me..

I

[Ted]

Actually 85% of the words, in the Bible, attributed to Jesus cannot be traced back to the historical Jesus. They reflect what the early church had come to believe about this Jesus of Nazareth. This was a particular style of writing that was quite acceptable in those days. While they are not historical they do convey profound truths about this Jesus and God.

The word "way" is an interesting one because thoughout the BIble it is used to describe a road or a path. It was also the first name of the early Christians. They were known as the "people of the "Way".

Jesus did show us the way as road or path and so has Buddha an others.

Shalom

A Christian pluralist

Ted:-6