spot;1035676 wrote: Perhaps in time that sort of establishment will be measured against the performance of the sort I've described. What I think we're both agreed is that the system whose graduates commit fewest future crimes wins. It would take a head-to-head experiment to see which does. Until then we're back in the realm of opinion again, unless you can come up with any studies that have a bearing.
No i don't have any studie's as i doubt there are any for for the type of establishment that you describe.
I do have word of mouth from a seasoned warden that youths in their youth prison rarely re-offend. They not only recieve punishment as in loss of liberty and life's luxery's but also, they do get the qualifield help for re-habilitation from experts. I don't really see how you can have one without the other.
If you had an establishment that had no form of punishment, it's like a glorified youth club.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
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Oscar Namechange
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035660 wrote: But you can't really see the current Armed Forces as dumping grounds for teenage criminals, surely?
They may enter as teenage criminals, but the hope is they wouldn't walk out as one Spot. Its just a suggestion and a bloody good one in my eyes, might deter some of the little buggers to offend in the first place if they found out at 16 they would automatically have to do a years service. No I don't see it as a dumping ground I see it as a correctional behaviour camp.
They may enter as teenage criminals, but the hope is they wouldn't walk out as one Spot. Its just a suggestion and a bloody good one in my eyes, might deter some of the little buggers to offend in the first place if they found out at 16 they would automatically have to do a years service. No I don't see it as a dumping ground I see it as a correctional behaviour camp.
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Oscar Namechange
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Interestingly, when my cat was killed and dumped in a nearby field, i didn't think the police would actually be interested. Would it be classed as crime??? I didn't know.
The local beat manager and his sergeant seemed genuinly sickened by it. That aside, they told me that the cat would have had some financial value on it. For example, if it had been one of my persians, we'd be looking at £600 pedigree value.
They said, all property has value weather it's £1. If it has value, it is a crime to destroy it.
These boys slaughtered some-thing that belonged to some-one else... that in it'self is a crime. That crime needs punishing by the boys not fining the parents.
The local beat manager and his sergeant seemed genuinly sickened by it. That aside, they told me that the cat would have had some financial value on it. For example, if it had been one of my persians, we'd be looking at £600 pedigree value.
They said, all property has value weather it's £1. If it has value, it is a crime to destroy it.
These boys slaughtered some-thing that belonged to some-one else... that in it'self is a crime. That crime needs punishing by the boys not fining the parents.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Chezzie;1035685 wrote: They may enter as teenage criminals, but the hope is they wouldn't walk out as one Spot. Its just a suggestion and a bloody good one in my eyes, might deter some of the little buggers to offend in the first place if they found out at 16 they would automatically have to do a years service. No I don't see it as a dumping ground I see it as a correctional behaviour camp.
And you don't see today's professional modern Armed Forces throwing a huge wobbler if this change of policy were suggested to them by the Home Secretary? Drop this five good GCSEs minimum requirement for everyone we send you that's been up before the bench for offences against the person in the last twelve months?
I don't think your Chief of Staff is going to countenance that dilution of his efficiency.
And you don't see today's professional modern Armed Forces throwing a huge wobbler if this change of policy were suggested to them by the Home Secretary? Drop this five good GCSEs minimum requirement for everyone we send you that's been up before the bench for offences against the person in the last twelve months?
I don't think your Chief of Staff is going to countenance that dilution of his efficiency.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035703 wrote: And you don't see today's professional modern Armed Forces throwing a huge wobbler if this change of policy were suggested to them by the Home Secretary? Drop this five good GCSEs minimum requirement for everyone we send you that's been up before the bench for offences against the person in the last twelve months?
I don't think your Chief of Staff is going to countenance that dilution of his efficiency.
I think your looking too deeply Spot. I'm saying they should have to automatically be enlisted and serve at least a year. That year they don't get treated like the lads who sign up because they want to be there. They can be 24 hour tea lads and boot polishers as long as their off the streets and not offending. Maybe a separate part in the barracks for these lads, after all it is supposed to be a punishment and a deterrent.
I don't think your Chief of Staff is going to countenance that dilution of his efficiency.
I think your looking too deeply Spot. I'm saying they should have to automatically be enlisted and serve at least a year. That year they don't get treated like the lads who sign up because they want to be there. They can be 24 hour tea lads and boot polishers as long as their off the streets and not offending. Maybe a separate part in the barracks for these lads, after all it is supposed to be a punishment and a deterrent.
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Oscar Namechange
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035703 wrote: And you don't see today's professional modern Armed Forces throwing a huge wobbler if this change of policy were suggested to them by the Home Secretary? Drop this five good GCSEs minimum requirement for everyone we send you that's been up before the bench for offences against the person in the last twelve months?
I don't think your Chief of Staff is going to countenance that dilution of his efficiency.
Mr Oscar was a rebel in the forces. He joined the armed services voluntarily but he was young and didn't like the discipline. He's just been telling me that he got 3 weeks Jankers which was extremely harsh conditions, hard work and discipline. He says it totally turned him around. He didn't argue with his Sergeant ever again.
I don't think your Chief of Staff is going to countenance that dilution of his efficiency.
Mr Oscar was a rebel in the forces. He joined the armed services voluntarily but he was young and didn't like the discipline. He's just been telling me that he got 3 weeks Jankers which was extremely harsh conditions, hard work and discipline. He says it totally turned him around. He didn't argue with his Sergeant ever again.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1035686 wrote: Interestingly, when my cat was killed and dumped in a nearby field, i didn't think the police would actually be interested. Would it be classed as crime??? I didn't know.
The local beat manager and his sergeant seemed genuinly sickened by it. That aside, they told me that the cat would have had some financial value on it. For example, if it had been one of my persians, we'd be looking at £600 pedigree value.
They said, all property has value weather it's £1. If it has value, it is a crime to destroy it.
These boys slaughtered some-thing that belonged to some-one else... that in it'self is a crime. That crime needs punishing by the boys not fining the parents.
We seem to live in different worlds, or at least your local police do.
Animal Welfare Act 2006
Prevention of harm
4 Unnecessary suffering
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,
(b) he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,
(c) the animal is a protected animal, and
(d) the suffering is unnecessary.An animal is a “protected animal” for the purposes of this Act if—
(a) it is of a kind which is commonly domesticated in the British Islands,
(b) it is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary basis, or
(c) it is not living in a wild state.Just how exact a match do you think you need to get before the Crown Prosecution Service can act over cruelty?
The local beat manager and his sergeant seemed genuinly sickened by it. That aside, they told me that the cat would have had some financial value on it. For example, if it had been one of my persians, we'd be looking at £600 pedigree value.
They said, all property has value weather it's £1. If it has value, it is a crime to destroy it.
These boys slaughtered some-thing that belonged to some-one else... that in it'self is a crime. That crime needs punishing by the boys not fining the parents.
We seem to live in different worlds, or at least your local police do.
Animal Welfare Act 2006
Prevention of harm
4 Unnecessary suffering
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,
(b) he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,
(c) the animal is a protected animal, and
(d) the suffering is unnecessary.An animal is a “protected animal” for the purposes of this Act if—
(a) it is of a kind which is commonly domesticated in the British Islands,
(b) it is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary basis, or
(c) it is not living in a wild state.Just how exact a match do you think you need to get before the Crown Prosecution Service can act over cruelty?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035722 wrote: We seem to live in different worlds, or at least your local police do.
Animal Welfare Act 2006
Prevention of harm
4 Unnecessary suffering
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,
(b) he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,
(c) the animal is a protected animal, and
(d) the suffering is unnecessary.
An animal is a “protected animal” for the purposes of this Act if—
(a) it is of a kind which is commonly domesticated in the British Islands,
(b) it is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary basis, or
(c) it is not living in a wild state.Just how exact a match do you think you need to get before you can prosecute for cruelty?
All that they were reasoning at the time was that the cat was my property. There-fore i could put a value on the cat, i.e the cost as a kitten. After all, i bought him. He was taken from our property, inside our garden.
If he had a value, it is in effect criminal damage. They also said, if they could prove it was the lad we suspect, they would apply whatever law they had to in order to have him prosecuted.
There is also the question of civil law. What he did, caused us immense distress and offence. There-fore it is a crime. The RSPCA would also like the prosecute under the very guidelines you have stated but we have no actual proof it was him.
let's just be gratefull that plod actually cared in the first place.
Animal Welfare Act 2006
Prevention of harm
4 Unnecessary suffering
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) an act of his, or a failure of his to act, causes an animal to suffer,
(b) he knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that the act, or failure to act, would have that effect or be likely to do so,
(c) the animal is a protected animal, and
(d) the suffering is unnecessary.
An animal is a “protected animal” for the purposes of this Act if—
(a) it is of a kind which is commonly domesticated in the British Islands,
(b) it is under the control of man whether on a permanent or temporary basis, or
(c) it is not living in a wild state.Just how exact a match do you think you need to get before you can prosecute for cruelty?
All that they were reasoning at the time was that the cat was my property. There-fore i could put a value on the cat, i.e the cost as a kitten. After all, i bought him. He was taken from our property, inside our garden.
If he had a value, it is in effect criminal damage. They also said, if they could prove it was the lad we suspect, they would apply whatever law they had to in order to have him prosecuted.
There is also the question of civil law. What he did, caused us immense distress and offence. There-fore it is a crime. The RSPCA would also like the prosecute under the very guidelines you have stated but we have no actual proof it was him.
let's just be gratefull that plod actually cared in the first place.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Chezzie;1035713 wrote: I think your looking too deeply Spot. I'm saying they should have to automatically be enlisted and serve at least a year.I hear you! The Armed Forces won't allow them to!!
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1035728 wrote: All that they were reasoning at the time was that the cat was my property. There-fore i could put a value on the cat, i.e the cost as a kitten. After all, i bought him.
If he had a value, it is in effect criminal damage. They also said, if they could prove it was the lad we suspect, they would apply whatever law they had to in order to have him prosecuted.
There is also the question of civil law. What he did, caused us immense distress and offence. There-fore it is a crime. The RSPCA would also like the prosecute under the very guidelines you have stated but we have no actual proof it was him.
Then what you're missing is proof, not the ability of the law to take action.
An RSPCA prosecution is a private prosecution. The Crown Prosecution Service is quite capable of initiating a case under that act, As you say, they need a case before they can go to court with it.
If he had a value, it is in effect criminal damage. They also said, if they could prove it was the lad we suspect, they would apply whatever law they had to in order to have him prosecuted.
There is also the question of civil law. What he did, caused us immense distress and offence. There-fore it is a crime. The RSPCA would also like the prosecute under the very guidelines you have stated but we have no actual proof it was him.
Then what you're missing is proof, not the ability of the law to take action.
An RSPCA prosecution is a private prosecution. The Crown Prosecution Service is quite capable of initiating a case under that act, As you say, they need a case before they can go to court with it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035729 wrote: I hear you! The Armed Forces won't allow them to!!
Its a shame as with a little reorganisation on the current way of working, well ok probably alot it could work and who knows they may get some bloody good lads that they wouldn't of got signing up naturally.
Its a shame as with a little reorganisation on the current way of working, well ok probably alot it could work and who knows they may get some bloody good lads that they wouldn't of got signing up naturally.
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Oscar Namechange
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Chezzie;1035733 wrote: Its a shame as with a little reorganisation on the current way of working, well ok probably alot it could work and who knows they may get some bloody good lads that they wouldn't of got signing up naturally.
I agree. Spot, have you ever seen a programme called "Bad lads Army"?
That's the proof there.
However, i can see some forces regarding these voilent offenders as a bit of a liability. You couldn't put a gun in their hands but they would certainly benifit from the sqaure bashing and discipline.
I agree. Spot, have you ever seen a programme called "Bad lads Army"?
That's the proof there.
However, i can see some forces regarding these voilent offenders as a bit of a liability. You couldn't put a gun in their hands but they would certainly benifit from the sqaure bashing and discipline.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1035763 wrote: I agree. Spot, have you ever seen a programme called "Bad lads Army"?
That's the proof there.
However, i can see some forces regarding these voilent offenders as a bit of a liability. You couldn't put a gun in their hands but they would certainly benifit from the sqaure bashing and discipline.
Bad Lads Army is based on the premise of subjecting delinquent individuals to the conditions of British National Service of the 1950s in order to see if this could rehabilitate them.
By all means, if you increase the numbers serving in the UK Armed Services to a million and a half, you have the resources to incorporate these social misfits and bring them back into mainstream society. You can't do it with the modern Army though, it's not equipped to take them. Bad Lads Army wasn't the Modern Army either. The pretence they established was a recreation of an army that hadn't existed for forty years.
I haven't the slightest idea what it would cost to genuinely recreate in full but I bet you could thoroughly reorganize the prison system for a lot less money and aim it at improving their recidivism rate. Currently around a half of all UK offenders are re-sentenced to jail after release. That's a complete condemnation of what happens at the moment, it's utter waste, it's sometimes termed a Vortex which sucks people into long-term criminality. It shouldn't be tolerated. When we finally get round to accepting that punishment has failed for those people perhaps we can put money into designing systems that work instead.
That's the proof there.
However, i can see some forces regarding these voilent offenders as a bit of a liability. You couldn't put a gun in their hands but they would certainly benifit from the sqaure bashing and discipline.
Bad Lads Army is based on the premise of subjecting delinquent individuals to the conditions of British National Service of the 1950s in order to see if this could rehabilitate them.
By all means, if you increase the numbers serving in the UK Armed Services to a million and a half, you have the resources to incorporate these social misfits and bring them back into mainstream society. You can't do it with the modern Army though, it's not equipped to take them. Bad Lads Army wasn't the Modern Army either. The pretence they established was a recreation of an army that hadn't existed for forty years.
I haven't the slightest idea what it would cost to genuinely recreate in full but I bet you could thoroughly reorganize the prison system for a lot less money and aim it at improving their recidivism rate. Currently around a half of all UK offenders are re-sentenced to jail after release. That's a complete condemnation of what happens at the moment, it's utter waste, it's sometimes termed a Vortex which sucks people into long-term criminality. It shouldn't be tolerated. When we finally get round to accepting that punishment has failed for those people perhaps we can put money into designing systems that work instead.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
As a country, we certainly need to build more facility's.
At the local police/residents forum i attended recently, there was outrage by local residents. The plod had caught a prolific graffiti offender. During questioning, he admitted to 31 other offences. All the plod spokesperson could harp on about was that graffitti crime had dropped by 90% since he was caught.
Plod also told us that his punishment was a day's painting at a local school but quickly added that it was all highly embarressing for the lad as some of his mates spotted him and took the mick.
Some of the victems of this graffiti artiste were in the audience and asked how, if the lad was never going to be brought before the courts, how could they re-cover the excess on their insurence that payed the cost of the damage he caused?
Plod replied that it was not viable to fine him in the courts or indeed for the judge to award his 31 victems compensation, because the youth was "Viably uncollectable". In other words, he got away with 31 offences because he was an out of work youth living with his parents.
The debate carried on al little and i finally said to spokesperson plod, "So let's get this right. Your saying that a youth can damage the property of 31 victems and his punsihment is a day's painting? You also say that you have to be very carefull as to his day's painting incase he slips and hurts himself, in which case, the little darling can sue the council for mega bucks. Are you now saying officer that if some-one throws rocks at my house and damages my preperty, you will send him round to repair my property, and if i don't make him tea and sandwiches, and god forbid it's raining and he slips on my path, he can sue me???
In so many words....... Yes.
What hope has any one got while bleeding heart liberals come out with this rubbish??
If that kid hasn't actually died laughing yet then he's probably out there doing the same.
At the local police/residents forum i attended recently, there was outrage by local residents. The plod had caught a prolific graffiti offender. During questioning, he admitted to 31 other offences. All the plod spokesperson could harp on about was that graffitti crime had dropped by 90% since he was caught.
Plod also told us that his punishment was a day's painting at a local school but quickly added that it was all highly embarressing for the lad as some of his mates spotted him and took the mick.
Some of the victems of this graffiti artiste were in the audience and asked how, if the lad was never going to be brought before the courts, how could they re-cover the excess on their insurence that payed the cost of the damage he caused?
Plod replied that it was not viable to fine him in the courts or indeed for the judge to award his 31 victems compensation, because the youth was "Viably uncollectable". In other words, he got away with 31 offences because he was an out of work youth living with his parents.
The debate carried on al little and i finally said to spokesperson plod, "So let's get this right. Your saying that a youth can damage the property of 31 victems and his punsihment is a day's painting? You also say that you have to be very carefull as to his day's painting incase he slips and hurts himself, in which case, the little darling can sue the council for mega bucks. Are you now saying officer that if some-one throws rocks at my house and damages my preperty, you will send him round to repair my property, and if i don't make him tea and sandwiches, and god forbid it's raining and he slips on my path, he can sue me???
In so many words....... Yes.
What hope has any one got while bleeding heart liberals come out with this rubbish??
If that kid hasn't actually died laughing yet then he's probably out there doing the same.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1035780 wrote: What hope has any one got while bleeding heart liberals come out with this rubbish??What possible reason can you have for jumping from your story to this tarbrush?
Find a technique with a track record of success and get it applied, for goodness sake. Punishment for the sake of punishment is bogus. Society quite simply has to pay for an approach which works if it's to bring people like that into harmony. In what way does anything I've written qualify me as a "bleeding heart liberal"?
Find a technique with a track record of success and get it applied, for goodness sake. Punishment for the sake of punishment is bogus. Society quite simply has to pay for an approach which works if it's to bring people like that into harmony. In what way does anything I've written qualify me as a "bleeding heart liberal"?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035793 wrote: What possible reason can you have for jumping from your story to this tarbrush?
Find a technique with a track record of success and get it applied, for goodness sake. Punishment for the sake of punishment is bogus. Society quite simply has to pay for an approach which works if it's to bring people like that into harmony. In what way does anything I've written qualify me as a "bleeding heart liberal"?
Oscar didn't imply you were Spot, she was referring to the people in her post over the graffiti offender and how he got protected and not punished.
Find a technique with a track record of success and get it applied, for goodness sake. Punishment for the sake of punishment is bogus. Society quite simply has to pay for an approach which works if it's to bring people like that into harmony. In what way does anything I've written qualify me as a "bleeding heart liberal"?
Oscar didn't imply you were Spot, she was referring to the people in her post over the graffiti offender and how he got protected and not punished.
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Oscar Namechange
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035793 wrote: What possible reason can you have for jumping from your story to this tarbrush?
Find a technique with a track record of success and get it applied, for goodness sake. Punishment for the sake of punishment is bogus. Society quite simply has to pay for an approach which works if it's to bring people like that into harmony. In what way does anything I've written qualify me as a "bleeding heart liberal"?
I wasn't calling you Spot a bleeding heart Liberal, so apologie's if that was infered. No, i meant, the powers that decide a prolific criminal who has confessed to causing 31 people misery and repair to their property, get's a day's painting and can sue the council should he slip up while he's doing it.
What about his 31 victems?
If, as it was brought up at the meeting, he was "collectably viable", he would probably been before the courts and a magistrate ordering him to pay compensation to his victems.
So, there you go kids, just make sure you haven't got a job and live with parents who are on benifit and you can get away with 31 crimes.
Find a technique with a track record of success and get it applied, for goodness sake. Punishment for the sake of punishment is bogus. Society quite simply has to pay for an approach which works if it's to bring people like that into harmony. In what way does anything I've written qualify me as a "bleeding heart liberal"?
I wasn't calling you Spot a bleeding heart Liberal, so apologie's if that was infered. No, i meant, the powers that decide a prolific criminal who has confessed to causing 31 people misery and repair to their property, get's a day's painting and can sue the council should he slip up while he's doing it.
What about his 31 victems?
If, as it was brought up at the meeting, he was "collectably viable", he would probably been before the courts and a magistrate ordering him to pay compensation to his victems.
So, there you go kids, just make sure you haven't got a job and live with parents who are on benifit and you can get away with 31 crimes.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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wildhorses
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035315 wrote: Now you're just arguing in order to argue which is rather pointless in terms of taking the topic forward. I know perfectly well who said what and when. More to the point, the record's here in the thread.
The advantage of a thread is that at least we've put our respective thoughts in front of an unbiased audience. Over a period, people will read what we've written and come to their own conclusions. I hope you think you've given them something useful to chew over.
Well I am afraid you do not keep up with threads very effectively. You accused me of being the one who started the part of the thread that referred to serial killing. And as you have admitted in your prior post...it was not me. So how can you say you know who said what ...and when? It was another poster who first brought up serial killing. And LOL....yes the record is here in the thread to prove you wrong...LOL. Can't believe you included that in your post.
The advantage of a thread is that at least we've put our respective thoughts in front of an unbiased audience. Over a period, people will read what we've written and come to their own conclusions. I hope you think you've given them something useful to chew over.
Well I am afraid you do not keep up with threads very effectively. You accused me of being the one who started the part of the thread that referred to serial killing. And as you have admitted in your prior post...it was not me. So how can you say you know who said what ...and when? It was another poster who first brought up serial killing. And LOL....yes the record is here in the thread to prove you wrong...LOL. Can't believe you included that in your post.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
wildhorses;1035866 wrote: Well I am afraid you do not keep up with threads very effectively. You accused me of being the one who started the part of the thread that referred to serial killing. And as you have admitted in your prior post...it was not me. So how can you say you know who said what ...and when? It was another poster who first brought up serial killing. And LOL....yes the record is here in the thread to prove you wrong...LOL. Can't believe you included that in your post.
It's interesting, the different style between US win-at-any-cost LOL-posters and the Europeans who want to unravel a puzzle. I'm not here to play in a knockout posting league, I'm here to fathom out the lunatic ways we get through life.
The LOL-rule, as best I understand it, is that whoever LOLs gets an automatic win on a round regardless of the quality of the post itself. It seems a rather demeaning game technique to stoop to.
It's interesting, the different style between US win-at-any-cost LOL-posters and the Europeans who want to unravel a puzzle. I'm not here to play in a knockout posting league, I'm here to fathom out the lunatic ways we get through life.
The LOL-rule, as best I understand it, is that whoever LOLs gets an automatic win on a round regardless of the quality of the post itself. It seems a rather demeaning game technique to stoop to.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1035814 wrote: I wasn't calling you Spot a bleeding heart Liberal, so apologie's if that was infered. No, i meant, the powers that decide a prolific criminal who has confessed to causing 31 people misery and repair to their property, get's a day's painting and can sue the council should he slip up while he's doing it.
What about his 31 victems?
If, as it was brought up at the meeting, he was "collectably viable", he would probably been before the courts and a magistrate ordering him to pay compensation to his victems.
So, there you go kids, just make sure you haven't got a job and live with parents who are on benifit and you can get away with 31 crimes.
You could try considering where the buck stops and apply pressure there.
The country has laws to deal with the git perfectly adequately. He's blatantly committed crimes, he's equally blatantly not been brought to account for them, of course there's a dissonance in the community as a result.
Getting angry with the local officer who turned up at the meeting and took the flak is a waste of time as well as unfair. Who's failed to enable him and his local sty to give graffitiman his day in court? The Chief Constable. Every single time.
You need the Parish Council to call for the bastard's resignation. You need to demand that he show up at the next meeting in person and explain why his own personal policy and priority has brought the community so much annoyance. You need to get him fired, and then his replacement, and then the next one, until one gets appointed who prosecutes. The magistrate can have it made perfectly clear that a trivial let-off is too much of an anti-climax and the village needs an exemplary deterrent jailing to put the point across.
Who else are you going to blame? It has nothing to do with liberal anyones, it has to do with inept slack management.
What about his 31 victems?
If, as it was brought up at the meeting, he was "collectably viable", he would probably been before the courts and a magistrate ordering him to pay compensation to his victems.
So, there you go kids, just make sure you haven't got a job and live with parents who are on benifit and you can get away with 31 crimes.
You could try considering where the buck stops and apply pressure there.
The country has laws to deal with the git perfectly adequately. He's blatantly committed crimes, he's equally blatantly not been brought to account for them, of course there's a dissonance in the community as a result.
Getting angry with the local officer who turned up at the meeting and took the flak is a waste of time as well as unfair. Who's failed to enable him and his local sty to give graffitiman his day in court? The Chief Constable. Every single time.
You need the Parish Council to call for the bastard's resignation. You need to demand that he show up at the next meeting in person and explain why his own personal policy and priority has brought the community so much annoyance. You need to get him fired, and then his replacement, and then the next one, until one gets appointed who prosecutes. The magistrate can have it made perfectly clear that a trivial let-off is too much of an anti-climax and the village needs an exemplary deterrent jailing to put the point across.
Who else are you going to blame? It has nothing to do with liberal anyones, it has to do with inept slack management.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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wildhorses
- Posts: 648
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035965 wrote: It's interesting, the different style between US win-at-any-cost LOL-posters and the Europeans who want to unravel a puzzle. I'm not here to play in a knockout posting league, I'm here to fathom out the lunatic ways we get through life.
The LOL-rule, as best I understand it, is that whoever LOLs gets an automatic win on a round regardless of the quality of the post itself. It seems a rather demeaning game technique to stoop to.
This post really makes not sense at all. What are you talking about? Are you going to address the fact that you accused me of a quote which did not belong to me? Don't know what you are talking about with regard to "LOL". Don't you know what it means? The LOL rule? There is no "LOL rule". LOL
The LOL-rule, as best I understand it, is that whoever LOLs gets an automatic win on a round regardless of the quality of the post itself. It seems a rather demeaning game technique to stoop to.
This post really makes not sense at all. What are you talking about? Are you going to address the fact that you accused me of a quote which did not belong to me? Don't know what you are talking about with regard to "LOL". Don't you know what it means? The LOL rule? There is no "LOL rule". LOL
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1035969 wrote: You could try considering where the buck stops and apply pressure there.
The country has laws to deal with the git perfectly adequately. He's blatantly committed crimes, he's equally blatantly not been brought to account for them, of course there's a dissonance in the community as a result.
Getting angry with the local officer who turned up at the meeting and took the flak is a waste of time as well as unfair. Who's failed to enable him and his local sty to give graffitiman his day in court? The Chief Constable. Every single time.
You need the Parish Council to call for the bastard's resignation. You need to demand that he show up at the next meeting in person and explain why his own personal policy and priority has brought the community so much annoyance. You need to get him fired, and then his replacement, and then the next one, until one gets appointed who prosecutes. The magistrate can have it made perfectly clear that a trivial let-off is too much of an anti-climax and the village needs an exemplary deterrent jailing to put the point across.
Who else are you going to blame? It has nothing to do with liberal anyones, it has to do with inept slack management.
It's interesting because the local officer we all got annoyed with was the one who nicked him and got him to confess to the other 30 crimes. What annoyed us, was this officer was laughing as he recounted the lad being sentenced to a day's painting. It was his laughing throughout the debate that riled us. Also the complete lack of interest when we moved on to another sore point, Emerson Green skateboard park were officers admited they had found drug wraps and booze bottles in there from kids as young as 12.
When we left the meeting, one parish councillor said it was the worst he'd ever been to. Nothing got resolved, it was purely a public relations exercise on behalf of the police to show residents that they were interested purely because they had bothered to turn up in the first place.
However, whenever there is a situation like this, we hear from the police officer's mouths themselves--- they blame the nanny state. I wish i had a £1 for every officer who has said 'if i had my way'.
It way come from the Chief Constable but ultimately, some-one pulls his strings.
Another example is sitting on the housing committee, i know how difficult it is to get anti-social tenants evicted. The one strong eviction tool used to be rent arrears, Not any more, it has come from government, thet they do not want a homeless situation. Magistrates are urged not to evict.
The country has laws to deal with the git perfectly adequately. He's blatantly committed crimes, he's equally blatantly not been brought to account for them, of course there's a dissonance in the community as a result.
Getting angry with the local officer who turned up at the meeting and took the flak is a waste of time as well as unfair. Who's failed to enable him and his local sty to give graffitiman his day in court? The Chief Constable. Every single time.
You need the Parish Council to call for the bastard's resignation. You need to demand that he show up at the next meeting in person and explain why his own personal policy and priority has brought the community so much annoyance. You need to get him fired, and then his replacement, and then the next one, until one gets appointed who prosecutes. The magistrate can have it made perfectly clear that a trivial let-off is too much of an anti-climax and the village needs an exemplary deterrent jailing to put the point across.
Who else are you going to blame? It has nothing to do with liberal anyones, it has to do with inept slack management.
It's interesting because the local officer we all got annoyed with was the one who nicked him and got him to confess to the other 30 crimes. What annoyed us, was this officer was laughing as he recounted the lad being sentenced to a day's painting. It was his laughing throughout the debate that riled us. Also the complete lack of interest when we moved on to another sore point, Emerson Green skateboard park were officers admited they had found drug wraps and booze bottles in there from kids as young as 12.
When we left the meeting, one parish councillor said it was the worst he'd ever been to. Nothing got resolved, it was purely a public relations exercise on behalf of the police to show residents that they were interested purely because they had bothered to turn up in the first place.
However, whenever there is a situation like this, we hear from the police officer's mouths themselves--- they blame the nanny state. I wish i had a £1 for every officer who has said 'if i had my way'.
It way come from the Chief Constable but ultimately, some-one pulls his strings.
Another example is sitting on the housing committee, i know how difficult it is to get anti-social tenants evicted. The one strong eviction tool used to be rent arrears, Not any more, it has come from government, thet they do not want a homeless situation. Magistrates are urged not to evict.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
I am not sure about Russia's legal system where these boys come from but here in Britain, the legal age of conviction for a criminal offence is.. 10 years old.
Now, at some point, some governing body must have deduced from research that at the age of 10, a child is capable of understanding right from wrong.
Again, i only go by memorey, but in the Jamie Bulger case where the two 10 year olds murdered a baby, i don't remember reading anything about the trial where the two lads said 'we didn't know what we were doing'. If i remember correctly, that was what made the case so chilling.. the fact that they did know exactly what they were doing at the age of 10, and at the time showed not one iota of remorse.
There-fore, i do believe, that at 12 years old, these boys should be punished fairly harshly in a youth prison.
Now, at some point, some governing body must have deduced from research that at the age of 10, a child is capable of understanding right from wrong.
Again, i only go by memorey, but in the Jamie Bulger case where the two 10 year olds murdered a baby, i don't remember reading anything about the trial where the two lads said 'we didn't know what we were doing'. If i remember correctly, that was what made the case so chilling.. the fact that they did know exactly what they were doing at the age of 10, and at the time showed not one iota of remorse.
There-fore, i do believe, that at 12 years old, these boys should be punished fairly harshly in a youth prison.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1036412 wrote: There-fore, i do believe, that at 12 years old, these boys should be punished fairly harshly in a youth prison.
The reason they're screwed up is that they get bullied and worse by their parents. The solution is for the State to bully them even more intensively? I don't think so. Punishment has nothing to do with mending them. Punishment is to placate the righteous.
The reason they're screwed up is that they get bullied and worse by their parents. The solution is for the State to bully them even more intensively? I don't think so. Punishment has nothing to do with mending them. Punishment is to placate the righteous.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036555 wrote: The reason they're screwed up is that they get bullied and worse by their parents. The solution is for the State to bully them even more intensively? I don't think so. Punishment has nothing to do with mending them. Punishment is to placate the righteous.
In the case of Jon Venebles Spot, i clearly remember his teachers giving evidence to say that he was the bully and not a victem of bullying. I also clearly remember a photograph of Venables in the press that had been leaked by the school. He was about 8 years old and in the process of hitting a smaller boy. I remember the whole article was about the fact that teachers said that he was extrememly disturbed and showing voilence towards other children years before he went on to kill Jamie Bulger.
To put children in a youth prison, i do not see as bullying. As i have said before, if they were slung in some concrete cell for 24 hours a day with no stimulation, then yes, indeed, that's bullying by the state and a need to satisfy the righteous.
Our youth prisons, and again i refer to Venebles, have a wealth of expertise to re-habilitate these children as well as ensuring they realise they have commited a crime and need to recognise that they have to be punished. That punishment is loss of liberty for a few years and loss of certain privaliges.
We have one local Tory Councillor here that is up in arms over the 'privalages' that these kids are actually entitled to. One is a trip to France and as he quite rightly said, 'What about all the law abiding kids, who would dearly love to go camping in France, but their parents don't have the money?'.
In the case of Jon Venebles Spot, i clearly remember his teachers giving evidence to say that he was the bully and not a victem of bullying. I also clearly remember a photograph of Venables in the press that had been leaked by the school. He was about 8 years old and in the process of hitting a smaller boy. I remember the whole article was about the fact that teachers said that he was extrememly disturbed and showing voilence towards other children years before he went on to kill Jamie Bulger.
To put children in a youth prison, i do not see as bullying. As i have said before, if they were slung in some concrete cell for 24 hours a day with no stimulation, then yes, indeed, that's bullying by the state and a need to satisfy the righteous.
Our youth prisons, and again i refer to Venebles, have a wealth of expertise to re-habilitate these children as well as ensuring they realise they have commited a crime and need to recognise that they have to be punished. That punishment is loss of liberty for a few years and loss of certain privaliges.
We have one local Tory Councillor here that is up in arms over the 'privalages' that these kids are actually entitled to. One is a trip to France and as he quite rightly said, 'What about all the law abiding kids, who would dearly love to go camping in France, but their parents don't have the money?'.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Stop switching back and forth so much and we'll have less trouble agreeing. "To put children in a youth prison, i do not see as bullying" doesn't sit well with "i do believe, that at 12 years old, these boys should be punished fairly harshly in a youth prison". I'm abbreviating "punished fairly harshly" with "bullying". If bullying means something different to you then it's a bad word for me to have chosen, it's meant to indicate the unstoppable use of force by the powerful. If you didn't keep saying "punish" we'd not be fighting over this.
You keep bringing those two Liverpool ten year olds' home lives into it - they were ten when they killed James Bulger - from memory and we already know your memory's not very reliable - neither's mine, that's why I look things up. I'll go and fetch their home lives and we can decide if it twisted them into what they were or whether it was purely coincidental, how's that.
eta: here we are.Thompson's father had abandoned his wife and children five years previously, one week before the family home was burned down in a fire. Ann Thompson was a heavy drinker, who found it difficult to control her seven children. Notes (obtained by author Blake Morrison) from an NSPCC case conference on the family described it as "appalling". The children "bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other". Incidents in the report include Philip (the third child) threatening his older brother Ian with a knife. Ian asked to be taken into foster care, and when he was returned to his family, he attempted suicide with an overdose of painkillers. Both Ann and Philip had also attempted suicide in the past.
[...] One of the aspects of the case that gained much media attention was whether Venables and Thompson had been watching violent films in the days and months prior to the murder, and whether or not those movies had contributed to making the pair act in the way they did. The judge mentioned that one of their fathers possessed a large collection of violent videos, and that they probably had access to them whilst playing truant from school. As James' death was similar to the death in the film, and the father of one of the boys had been known to hire this film the week before the murder, The Sun newspaper explicitly named Child's Play 3 as a movie they had seen and printed a full front-page picture of the menacing Chucky, the child-killing doll of that horror series.
You keep bringing those two Liverpool ten year olds' home lives into it - they were ten when they killed James Bulger - from memory and we already know your memory's not very reliable - neither's mine, that's why I look things up. I'll go and fetch their home lives and we can decide if it twisted them into what they were or whether it was purely coincidental, how's that.
eta: here we are.Thompson's father had abandoned his wife and children five years previously, one week before the family home was burned down in a fire. Ann Thompson was a heavy drinker, who found it difficult to control her seven children. Notes (obtained by author Blake Morrison) from an NSPCC case conference on the family described it as "appalling". The children "bit, hammered, battered, tortured each other". Incidents in the report include Philip (the third child) threatening his older brother Ian with a knife. Ian asked to be taken into foster care, and when he was returned to his family, he attempted suicide with an overdose of painkillers. Both Ann and Philip had also attempted suicide in the past.
[...] One of the aspects of the case that gained much media attention was whether Venables and Thompson had been watching violent films in the days and months prior to the murder, and whether or not those movies had contributed to making the pair act in the way they did. The judge mentioned that one of their fathers possessed a large collection of violent videos, and that they probably had access to them whilst playing truant from school. As James' death was similar to the death in the film, and the father of one of the boys had been known to hire this film the week before the murder, The Sun newspaper explicitly named Child's Play 3 as a movie they had seen and printed a full front-page picture of the menacing Chucky, the child-killing doll of that horror series.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036623 wrote: Stop switching back and forth so much and we'll have less trouble agreeing. "To put children in a youth prison, i do not see as bullying" doesn't sit well with "i do believe, that at 12 years old, these boys should be punished fairly harshly in a youth prison". I'm abbreviating "punished fairly harshly" with "bullying". If bullying means something different to you then it's a bad word for me to have chosen, it's meant to indicate the unstoppable use of force by the powerful. If you didn't keep saying "punish" we'd not be fighting over this.
You keep bringing those two Liverpool 11 year olds' home lives into it from memory and we already know your memory's not very reliable - neither's mine, that's why I look things up. I'll go and fetch their home lives and we can decide if it twisted them into what they were or whether it was purely coincidental, how's that.
Yes, if you can find anything on the home live's it would be intersting. I was looking for a link about Venebles killing cat's and couldn't find one as my memory is not reliable.
I suppose we differ in what we think of as bullying. I do not see a local youth prison who uses the 'praise and reward' method on children as bullying.
Also, i do not see the wealth of experts who want to actually get to the root cause of these childrens problems with the target being re-habilitation and release back into the public asap as bullying. Weather the home is run privately or government run, their aims and goals are pretty much the same.
You know me Spot, if you prove me wrong, i'll admit it. I think this thread does come down to public opinion more than proven statistics but i'll be interested in any thing you can find on Venebles.
You keep bringing those two Liverpool 11 year olds' home lives into it from memory and we already know your memory's not very reliable - neither's mine, that's why I look things up. I'll go and fetch their home lives and we can decide if it twisted them into what they were or whether it was purely coincidental, how's that.
Yes, if you can find anything on the home live's it would be intersting. I was looking for a link about Venebles killing cat's and couldn't find one as my memory is not reliable.
I suppose we differ in what we think of as bullying. I do not see a local youth prison who uses the 'praise and reward' method on children as bullying.
Also, i do not see the wealth of experts who want to actually get to the root cause of these childrens problems with the target being re-habilitation and release back into the public asap as bullying. Weather the home is run privately or government run, their aims and goals are pretty much the same.
You know me Spot, if you prove me wrong, i'll admit it. I think this thread does come down to public opinion more than proven statistics but i'll be interested in any thing you can find on Venebles.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Beat you to it Spot
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/noto ... ger/8.html
I see conflicting storie's here. Venebles himself says he came from a loving and supportive family.
The writer also says that Venebles father was not abusive but his mother was controlling. How many mothers are controlling? They're children don't all murder babie's.
Then you also have the writer saying that dispite what Venebles has said himself, he was bullied as a child by other children until he met 'Thompson'.
Many children are bullied as small children, again, they do not go on to murder babie's.
We also have the earlier report that within 8 years of Venebles being in a youth custodial unit, he was successfully re-habilitated to be given parole and resume his life.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/noto ... ger/8.html
I see conflicting storie's here. Venebles himself says he came from a loving and supportive family.
The writer also says that Venebles father was not abusive but his mother was controlling. How many mothers are controlling? They're children don't all murder babie's.
Then you also have the writer saying that dispite what Venebles has said himself, he was bullied as a child by other children until he met 'Thompson'.
Many children are bullied as small children, again, they do not go on to murder babie's.
We also have the earlier report that within 8 years of Venebles being in a youth custodial unit, he was successfully re-habilitated to be given parole and resume his life.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
I apologize for posting it on an eta in the previous post, I thought it fitted there.
Both of us want the children off the streets and away from their parents and into the identical reformatory system, you want to call it punishment for some reason and I want to call it rehabilitation because that's the only meaningful thing that can improve them. Whatever was done for those two from Liverpool, that's what we both want done to the others.
Both of us want the children off the streets and away from their parents and into the identical reformatory system, you want to call it punishment for some reason and I want to call it rehabilitation because that's the only meaningful thing that can improve them. Whatever was done for those two from Liverpool, that's what we both want done to the others.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1036644 wrote: I do not see a local youth prison who uses the 'praise and reward' method on children as bullying.Nor do I - I'll be remarkably happy if whatever was done after sentencing to Thompson and Venables is done to others. How does "praise and reward" equate to "punished fairly harshly in a youth prison"?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036657 wrote: I apologize for posting it on an eta in the previous post, I thought it fitted there.
Both of us want the children off the streets and away from their parents and into the identical reformatory system, you want to call it punishment for some reason and I want to call it rehabilitation because that's the only meaningful thing that can improve them. Whatever was done for those two from Liverpool, that's what we both want done to the others.
Then we agree Yoda.
I think that one of the criminal factors in this case was that teachers warnings that he was seriously disturbed some years prior to killing Jamie Bulger, went unheard. Maybe they were heard but we were in the grip of noooo Labour's nanny state who said that he should not be taken from his parents until he had commited a crime.
Venebles was clearly a danger to other children and needed institutionalising before he did more harm.
In the case here of 12 yr olds beating a living animal to death, i see that as a clear indication that worse behaviour is likely to follow.
We established that legally they have commited a crime and i just believe, weather you call it punishment or re-habilitation, it needs to be recognised as a crime and the boys punished.
Both of us want the children off the streets and away from their parents and into the identical reformatory system, you want to call it punishment for some reason and I want to call it rehabilitation because that's the only meaningful thing that can improve them. Whatever was done for those two from Liverpool, that's what we both want done to the others.
Then we agree Yoda.
I think that one of the criminal factors in this case was that teachers warnings that he was seriously disturbed some years prior to killing Jamie Bulger, went unheard. Maybe they were heard but we were in the grip of noooo Labour's nanny state who said that he should not be taken from his parents until he had commited a crime.
Venebles was clearly a danger to other children and needed institutionalising before he did more harm.
In the case here of 12 yr olds beating a living animal to death, i see that as a clear indication that worse behaviour is likely to follow.
We established that legally they have commited a crime and i just believe, weather you call it punishment or re-habilitation, it needs to be recognised as a crime and the boys punished.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036679 wrote: Nor do I - I'll be remarkably happy if whatever was done after sentencing to Thompson and Venables is done to others. How does "praise and reward" equate to "punished fairly harshly in a youth prison"?
The 'harshness' for a child or youth is the sudden loss of family and having to co-operate with the help offered into being awarded a family visit. This makes them realise that their family's are some-thing they need to work at keeping. It also tells the parents that their contact is 'not a god given right' because they have contributed in some way to the child screwing up.
The loss of privaliges even in children who have barely anything can be seen as harsh.
Loss of liberty, the right to walk down the street is harsh.
The 'harshness' for a child or youth is the sudden loss of family and having to co-operate with the help offered into being awarded a family visit. This makes them realise that their family's are some-thing they need to work at keeping. It also tells the parents that their contact is 'not a god given right' because they have contributed in some way to the child screwing up.
The loss of privaliges even in children who have barely anything can be seen as harsh.
Loss of liberty, the right to walk down the street is harsh.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Hello folks..... Mr Oscar here......
Now far be it from me to argue with my dear wife but my opinion for what it's worth, is that a child is the legal responsibility of the parents until 17 or 18 years old depending on different country's.
The parents should be the one's harshly punished and sent on parenting courses until they get it right.
Now far be it from me to argue with my dear wife but my opinion for what it's worth, is that a child is the legal responsibility of the parents until 17 or 18 years old depending on different country's.
The parents should be the one's harshly punished and sent on parenting courses until they get it right.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1036692 wrote: i just believe, weather you call it punishment or re-habilitation, it needs to be recognised as a crime and the boys punished.
You just can't avoid it, can you. How about "it needs to be recognised as a crime and the boys treated"? You're as fixated on punishment as some corpulent Conservative minister who fagged at Eton. My problem is that "punished fairly harshly in a youth prison" seems to unavoidably carry connotations of corporal punishment and solitary confinement, it's all Short Sharp Shock stuff, it's not - technical term here - it's not correction. When correction was introduced as a concept by the Victorians is meant just that. It's a sign of the way things slipped back that it ended up meaning a thrashing.
You open an entirely new can of worms with "we were in the grip of noooo Labour's nanny state". I don't see progress in the treatment of criminals as a party-political card, I think it's a matter of whatever society can nerve itself to agree to. If you have society driven by the Sun then you have a prison vortex sucking in more and more of the population. If you have society prepared to mend people rather than lock them up throw away the key and let them beat each other senseless then we might get some progress.
You just can't avoid it, can you. How about "it needs to be recognised as a crime and the boys treated"? You're as fixated on punishment as some corpulent Conservative minister who fagged at Eton. My problem is that "punished fairly harshly in a youth prison" seems to unavoidably carry connotations of corporal punishment and solitary confinement, it's all Short Sharp Shock stuff, it's not - technical term here - it's not correction. When correction was introduced as a concept by the Victorians is meant just that. It's a sign of the way things slipped back that it ended up meaning a thrashing.
You open an entirely new can of worms with "we were in the grip of noooo Labour's nanny state". I don't see progress in the treatment of criminals as a party-political card, I think it's a matter of whatever society can nerve itself to agree to. If you have society driven by the Sun then you have a prison vortex sucking in more and more of the population. If you have society prepared to mend people rather than lock them up throw away the key and let them beat each other senseless then we might get some progress.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036748 wrote: You just can't avoid it, can you. How about "it needs to be recognised as a crime and the boys treated"? You're as fixated on punishment as some corpulent Conservative minister who fagged at Eton. My problem is that "punished fairly harshly in a youth prison" seems to unavoidably carry connotations of corporal punishment and solitary confinement, it's all Short Sharp Shock stuff, it's not - technical term here - it's not correction. When correction was introduced as a concept by the Victorians is meant just that. It's a sign of the way things slipped back that it ended up meaning a thrashing.
You open an entirely new can of worms with "we were in the grip of noooo Labour's nanny state". I don't see progress in the treatment of criminals as a party-political card, I think it's a matter of whatever society can nerve itself to agree to. If you have society driven by the Sun then you have a prison vortex sucking in more and more of the population. If you have society prepared to mend people rather than lock them up throw away the key and let them beat each other senseless then we might get some progress.
I have at no time posted that i believe the boys should be subject to corporal punishment.
It is not 'demeaning' for a youth detainee to be asked to work for his food, family visits or the odd luxery.
I see corporal punishment as humiliation which is the practice of a Tory Minister having a 'fag' at Eton.
Even if these lads did do a year in a goolag breaking rocks, i do not see that as corporal punishment. They are 'earning' their keep as many many American Prisons still use such practice.
I refer to it as Nooooo Labour because they are responsible for some of the ludicrous human rights that put the right of a criminal before they're victem.
Exactly as i explained in the post about my recent meeting with the police. The prolific graffiti artiste was deemed to be 'not collectably viable'. This allowed him to rack up 31 victems of his crimes. So, under noooo Labour, we pity the poor little darling because his parents are on benifit, he's out of work and has no money to pay a fine or compensation to the victems. I happen to think it's ludicrous and going by the re-action of other residents and victems that night, i am not alone.
Under Noooo Labour, even when obvious warning signs are there, a youth can not be sent for correctional therepy until he actually commits a crime. That in it's self is the crime. That some-one's child will go on to become a victem as did Jamie Bulger.
If we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next', then lives would be saved.
As i have called for the death penalty on the monster who tortured his baby for months, finally killing her by snapping her spine, your comments will be interesting should you wish to comment on that thread. Again, in court, they have heard how this man who murdered his baby showed alarming signs of disturbance as a child.
You open an entirely new can of worms with "we were in the grip of noooo Labour's nanny state". I don't see progress in the treatment of criminals as a party-political card, I think it's a matter of whatever society can nerve itself to agree to. If you have society driven by the Sun then you have a prison vortex sucking in more and more of the population. If you have society prepared to mend people rather than lock them up throw away the key and let them beat each other senseless then we might get some progress.
I have at no time posted that i believe the boys should be subject to corporal punishment.
It is not 'demeaning' for a youth detainee to be asked to work for his food, family visits or the odd luxery.
I see corporal punishment as humiliation which is the practice of a Tory Minister having a 'fag' at Eton.
Even if these lads did do a year in a goolag breaking rocks, i do not see that as corporal punishment. They are 'earning' their keep as many many American Prisons still use such practice.
I refer to it as Nooooo Labour because they are responsible for some of the ludicrous human rights that put the right of a criminal before they're victem.
Exactly as i explained in the post about my recent meeting with the police. The prolific graffiti artiste was deemed to be 'not collectably viable'. This allowed him to rack up 31 victems of his crimes. So, under noooo Labour, we pity the poor little darling because his parents are on benifit, he's out of work and has no money to pay a fine or compensation to the victems. I happen to think it's ludicrous and going by the re-action of other residents and victems that night, i am not alone.
Under Noooo Labour, even when obvious warning signs are there, a youth can not be sent for correctional therepy until he actually commits a crime. That in it's self is the crime. That some-one's child will go on to become a victem as did Jamie Bulger.
If we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next', then lives would be saved.
As i have called for the death penalty on the monster who tortured his baby for months, finally killing her by snapping her spine, your comments will be interesting should you wish to comment on that thread. Again, in court, they have heard how this man who murdered his baby showed alarming signs of disturbance as a child.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1036780 wrote: I have at no time posted that i believe the boys should be subject to corporal punishment.
It is not 'demeaning' for a youth detainee to be asked to work for his food, family visits or the odd luxery.
I see corporal punishment as humiliation which is the practice of a Tory Minister having a 'fag' at Eton.
Even if these lads did do a year in a goolag breaking rocks, i do not see that as corporal punishment. They are 'earning' their keep as many many American Prisons still use such practice.I'm not sure you understand how it works. Any of these systems you describe rely on "do this or else". The "do this" command needn't be made with an applied corporal punishment but the "or else" undoubtedly has it. Without the "or else" there's no force behind the command to break the rocks or work for his food. "Or else" is either physical or mental compulsion. People have died in youth detention centres in England from the effects of the physical force employed on those occasions, we're not talking about a mere slapping here.
It is not 'demeaning' for a youth detainee to be asked to work for his food, family visits or the odd luxery.
I see corporal punishment as humiliation which is the practice of a Tory Minister having a 'fag' at Eton.
Even if these lads did do a year in a goolag breaking rocks, i do not see that as corporal punishment. They are 'earning' their keep as many many American Prisons still use such practice.I'm not sure you understand how it works. Any of these systems you describe rely on "do this or else". The "do this" command needn't be made with an applied corporal punishment but the "or else" undoubtedly has it. Without the "or else" there's no force behind the command to break the rocks or work for his food. "Or else" is either physical or mental compulsion. People have died in youth detention centres in England from the effects of the physical force employed on those occasions, we're not talking about a mere slapping here.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1036780 wrote: Exactly as i explained in the post about my recent meeting with the police. The prolific graffiti artiste was deemed to be 'not collectably viable'. This allowed him to rack up 31 victems of his crimes. So, under noooo Labour, we pity the poor little darling because his parents are on benifit, he's out of work and has no money to pay a fine or compensation to the victems. I happen to think it's ludicrous and going by the re-action of other residents and victems that night, i am not alone.How about if we burrow under the skin of this, then. I'll bet you a pint that the reason the police decided that because the prolific graffiti artist was not collectably viable he was consequently not to be taken to court was an internal police decision, not an external political decision. If it turns out I'm right, do you think you might start to rethink your blame scheme? All this "new Labour poor little darling because his parents are on benefit" is in your head and the heads of another few million tabloid addicts, it's nothing to do with New Labour in the slightest. It's propaganda, it's not a part of the puzzle we're trying to unravel, it's wool over the eyes.
Is it a bet? Shall we go and find out the real originators of "not collectably viable" being a reason not to prosecute?
Is it a bet? Shall we go and find out the real originators of "not collectably viable" being a reason not to prosecute?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036805 wrote: I'm not sure you understand how it works. Any of these systems you describe rely on "do this or else". The "do this" command needn't be made with an applied corporal punishment but the "or else" undoubtedly has it. Without the "or else" there's no force behind the command to break the rocks or work for his food. "Or else" is either physical or mental compulsion. People have died in youth detention centres in England from the effects of the physical force employed on those occasions, we're not talking about a mere slapping here.
When you talk of private run childrens re-habilitation units being run on pay for results system, then is that 'do this or else' not the same ideology?
You would have individuals saying they knew better than parents and government in the re-habilitation of children. If they did not use the 'do this or else' system, the unit would simply revert to a childrens home where the offenders would have no account for their actions. They would come out the other end, spoilt, un-managable and thinking the world owes them a living, which is what i see in alot of the youth's here nowadays.
To say to a child ' if you do your work rota, you can have a take-away of your choice at the end of the week' is not 'do this or else' in my eyes. It is merely a way of the children understanding that life comes with a price as it does to all of us.
Without this, society in a main would break down.
When you talk of private run childrens re-habilitation units being run on pay for results system, then is that 'do this or else' not the same ideology?
You would have individuals saying they knew better than parents and government in the re-habilitation of children. If they did not use the 'do this or else' system, the unit would simply revert to a childrens home where the offenders would have no account for their actions. They would come out the other end, spoilt, un-managable and thinking the world owes them a living, which is what i see in alot of the youth's here nowadays.
To say to a child ' if you do your work rota, you can have a take-away of your choice at the end of the week' is not 'do this or else' in my eyes. It is merely a way of the children understanding that life comes with a price as it does to all of us.
Without this, society in a main would break down.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1036829 wrote: When you talk of private run childrens re-habilitation units being run on pay for results system, then is that 'do this or else' not the same ideology?
You would have individuals saying they knew better than parents and government in the re-habilitation of children. If they did not use the 'do this or else' system, the unit would simply revert to a childrens home where the offenders would have no account for their actions. They would come out the other end, spoilt, un-managable and thinking the world owes them a living, which is what i see in alot of the youth's here nowadays.
To say to a child ' if you do your work rota, you can have a take-away of your choice at the end of the week' is not 'do this or else' in my eyes. It is merely a way of the children understanding that life comes with a price as it does to all of us.
Without this, society in a main would break down.
We can agree over this as well, it's quite simple.
I have no idea whatever how the internal policies of such a company would pan out. All I said was that the most effective treatments would emerge in response to the need to do better than the competing companies. All the companies would, obviously, be constrained by law as far as what they could do is concerned. That's true now, it would be true if they existed too. The companies, to use a banking term, would be regulated.
Maybe you're right and they'd use "do this or else". Maybe they'd be more subtle, which is what I prefer to think. Which way they do it is irrelevant, I don't care, I merely have an opinion but it's not checkable so it has no value.
Where we can agree is that a scheme into which criminal or damaged children are fed and out of which reformed non-criminal children emerge who re-offend less often than average people their age is something worth pushing for. We can agree that, to get them to that final desirable stage, they need removing from their parents, they need to be detained indefinitely, they need to be held out of society. We differ on what might happen inside that closed box but we can agree that it's not really important so long as it's the most effective option.
You would have individuals saying they knew better than parents and government in the re-habilitation of children. If they did not use the 'do this or else' system, the unit would simply revert to a childrens home where the offenders would have no account for their actions. They would come out the other end, spoilt, un-managable and thinking the world owes them a living, which is what i see in alot of the youth's here nowadays.
To say to a child ' if you do your work rota, you can have a take-away of your choice at the end of the week' is not 'do this or else' in my eyes. It is merely a way of the children understanding that life comes with a price as it does to all of us.
Without this, society in a main would break down.
We can agree over this as well, it's quite simple.
I have no idea whatever how the internal policies of such a company would pan out. All I said was that the most effective treatments would emerge in response to the need to do better than the competing companies. All the companies would, obviously, be constrained by law as far as what they could do is concerned. That's true now, it would be true if they existed too. The companies, to use a banking term, would be regulated.
Maybe you're right and they'd use "do this or else". Maybe they'd be more subtle, which is what I prefer to think. Which way they do it is irrelevant, I don't care, I merely have an opinion but it's not checkable so it has no value.
Where we can agree is that a scheme into which criminal or damaged children are fed and out of which reformed non-criminal children emerge who re-offend less often than average people their age is something worth pushing for. We can agree that, to get them to that final desirable stage, they need removing from their parents, they need to be detained indefinitely, they need to be held out of society. We differ on what might happen inside that closed box but we can agree that it's not really important so long as it's the most effective option.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036818 wrote: How about if we burrow under the skin of this, then. I'll bet you a pint that the reason the police decided that because the prolific graffiti artist was not collectably viable he was consequently not to be taken to court was an internal police decision, not an external political decision. If it turns out I'm right, do you think you might start to rethink your blame scheme? All this "new Labour poor little darling because his parents are on benefit" is in your head and the heads of another few million tabloid addicts, it's nothing to do with New Labour in the slightest. It's propaganda, it's not a part of the puzzle we're trying to unravel, it's wool over the eyes.
Is it a bet? Shall we go and find out the real originators of "not collectably viable" being a reason not to prosecute?
I will bet you two pints Sir of your choice. I am always a lady to put my money where my mouth is.
Are we including CPS decision here or the arresting officer and Chief Constable's decision only??
We have another similar incident here. A local lad cried 'mistaken Identity' in a recent trial. During evidence, three of his best mates gave damning evidence against him and it is recorded in Prosecution and defence notes that he was indeed not innocent and was in the act of committing criminal damage on the day.
Those involved, including the RBL called for his arrest based on evidence given by his friends and the Judge's summing up.
I am in regular contact with the sergeant and Police Community Inspector who is dealing with this.
They were alos given photographic evidence of the damage he caused on the day that police were un-aware existed and was in the hands of a lawyer to present to court.
The last time i spoke to the Sergeant, he said that dispite even all members of the RBL also calling for the youth's arrest, he did not see his prosecution 'In the interests of the public any-more'.
I called him a 'jerk' as my lawyer tells me that i am legally entitled to have and voice an opinion. I also told him that we would move on to the Chief Inspector of the particular police force to find out exactly why, they considered this and weather or not, the Chief Constable was aware that this decision had been made by local police.
I am waiting to hear.
How do you suggest we get to the root cause of weather police are instructed by the 'nanny state'??
Is it a bet? Shall we go and find out the real originators of "not collectably viable" being a reason not to prosecute?
I will bet you two pints Sir of your choice. I am always a lady to put my money where my mouth is.
Are we including CPS decision here or the arresting officer and Chief Constable's decision only??
We have another similar incident here. A local lad cried 'mistaken Identity' in a recent trial. During evidence, three of his best mates gave damning evidence against him and it is recorded in Prosecution and defence notes that he was indeed not innocent and was in the act of committing criminal damage on the day.
Those involved, including the RBL called for his arrest based on evidence given by his friends and the Judge's summing up.
I am in regular contact with the sergeant and Police Community Inspector who is dealing with this.
They were alos given photographic evidence of the damage he caused on the day that police were un-aware existed and was in the hands of a lawyer to present to court.
The last time i spoke to the Sergeant, he said that dispite even all members of the RBL also calling for the youth's arrest, he did not see his prosecution 'In the interests of the public any-more'.
I called him a 'jerk' as my lawyer tells me that i am legally entitled to have and voice an opinion. I also told him that we would move on to the Chief Inspector of the particular police force to find out exactly why, they considered this and weather or not, the Chief Constable was aware that this decision had been made by local police.
I am waiting to hear.
How do you suggest we get to the root cause of weather police are instructed by the 'nanny state'??
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036853 wrote: We can agree over this as well, it's quite simple.
I have no idea whatever how the internal policies of such a company would pan out. All I said was that the most effective treatments would emerge in response to the need to do better than the competing companies. All the companies would, obviously, be constrained by law as far as what they could do is concerned. That's true now, it would be true if they existed too. The companies, to use a banking term, would be regulated.
Maybe you're right and they'd use "do this or else". Maybe they'd be more subtle, which is what I prefer to think. Which way they do it is irrelevant, I don't care, I merely have an opinion but it's not checkable so it has no value.
Where we can agree is that a scheme into which criminal or damaged children are fed and out of which reformed non-criminal children emerge who re-offend less often than average people their age is something worth pushing for. We can agree that, to get them to that final desirable stage, they need removing from their parents, they need to be detained indefinitely, they need to be held out of society. We differ on what might happen inside that closed box but we can agree that it's not really important so long as it's the most effective option.
Agreed
I have no idea whatever how the internal policies of such a company would pan out. All I said was that the most effective treatments would emerge in response to the need to do better than the competing companies. All the companies would, obviously, be constrained by law as far as what they could do is concerned. That's true now, it would be true if they existed too. The companies, to use a banking term, would be regulated.
Maybe you're right and they'd use "do this or else". Maybe they'd be more subtle, which is what I prefer to think. Which way they do it is irrelevant, I don't care, I merely have an opinion but it's not checkable so it has no value.
Where we can agree is that a scheme into which criminal or damaged children are fed and out of which reformed non-criminal children emerge who re-offend less often than average people their age is something worth pushing for. We can agree that, to get them to that final desirable stage, they need removing from their parents, they need to be detained indefinitely, they need to be held out of society. We differ on what might happen inside that closed box but we can agree that it's not really important so long as it's the most effective option.
Agreed
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
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Oscar Namechange
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- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
Is this gutter press at work Spot??
Or an indication of real fact??
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 858882.ece
Time and time again we see teenagers that commit the most henoius of crimes being allowed bail to go on to further violent crime.
Is that the Chief Constables decision, the Magistrates or Noooo Labours human rights??
Or an indication of real fact??
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 858882.ece
Time and time again we see teenagers that commit the most henoius of crimes being allowed bail to go on to further violent crime.
Is that the Chief Constables decision, the Magistrates or Noooo Labours human rights??
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1036780 wrote: Under Noooo Labour, even when obvious warning signs are there, a youth can not be sent for correctional therepy until he actually commits a crime. That in it's self is the crime. That some-one's child will go on to become a victem as did Jamie Bulger.
If we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next', then lives would be saved.
Here's a little puzzle for you, you'll enjoy this. When's the last time, other than during the war for reasons of National Security, that there was a "prevent policy" in England? You're claiming it's a New Labour innovation.
If we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next', then lives would be saved.
Here's a little puzzle for you, you'll enjoy this. When's the last time, other than during the war for reasons of National Security, that there was a "prevent policy" in England? You're claiming it's a New Labour innovation.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1036884 wrote: Here's a little puzzle for you, you'll enjoy this. When's the last time, other than during the war for reasons of National Security, that there was a "prevent policy" in England? You're claiming it's a New Labour innovation.
It's not a puzzle to me Spot, you are correct. However, it is under Nooo Labour that many of these ridiculous human rights laws over-shadow common sense. We are seeing the detriment of that as i posted Jack Straw's piece today in the previous post.
Noooo Labour allowed the stranglehold of human rights to dictate our every-day life and by consequence made a society where the criminal has more rights than the victem.
You only have to look at the very example of Gary Newlove and one of his killers, 'Swellings' who was constantly bailed after committing violent acts.
It's not a puzzle to me Spot, you are correct. However, it is under Nooo Labour that many of these ridiculous human rights laws over-shadow common sense. We are seeing the detriment of that as i posted Jack Straw's piece today in the previous post.
Noooo Labour allowed the stranglehold of human rights to dictate our every-day life and by consequence made a society where the criminal has more rights than the victem.
You only have to look at the very example of Gary Newlove and one of his killers, 'Swellings' who was constantly bailed after committing violent acts.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
What I find baffling is that you say here's a problem, it's a New Labour problem, and then I say well no it's not actually, and you say well you're quite right but New Labour did this and this and this instead which... and then I lose what you're saying.
Under New Labour dumdy dumdy dum but if we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next' then lives would be saved. That was where we started?
And then we get you're quite right spot, it's nothing to do with New Labour at all that we don't have a 'prevent' policy.
Why post about the 'prevent' policy at all? Why not post about a genuine New Labour policy that's really theirs, that wasn't part of a previous government's laws and that you disapprove of. Which of these "ridiculous human rights laws" which "over-shadow common sense" - something I can look up and read as genuine New Labour legislation - are you criticizing?
I'm still just seeing buckshot propaganda.
Under New Labour dumdy dumdy dum but if we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next' then lives would be saved. That was where we started?
And then we get you're quite right spot, it's nothing to do with New Labour at all that we don't have a 'prevent' policy.
Why post about the 'prevent' policy at all? Why not post about a genuine New Labour policy that's really theirs, that wasn't part of a previous government's laws and that you disapprove of. Which of these "ridiculous human rights laws" which "over-shadow common sense" - something I can look up and read as genuine New Labour legislation - are you criticizing?
I'm still just seeing buckshot propaganda.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
spot;1037015 wrote: What I find baffling is that you say here's a problem, it's a New Labour problem, and then I say well no it's not actually, and you say well you're quite right but New Labour did this and this and this instead which... and then I lose what you're saying.
Under New Labour dumdy dumdy dum but if we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next' then lives would be saved. That was where we started?
And then we get you're quite right spot, it's nothing to do with New Labour at all that we don't have a 'prevent' policy.
Why post about the 'prevent' policy at all? Why not post about a genuine New Labour policy that's really theirs, that wasn't part of a previous government's laws and that you disapprove of. Which of these "ridiculous human rights laws" which "over-shadow common sense" - something I can look up and read as genuine New Labour legislation - are you criticizing?
I'm still just seeing buckshot propaganda.
I did say in a far earlier post that i didn't have the answers and what i try to do is to be as objectional as possible to other posters views.
To clarify myself, as i probably did not do so in my posts, i do blame Labour for the leniency shown by our police and courts.
Now where i get that proof, other than press propaganda, i'm not sure at the moment. I am sure during the week, my Tory councillors would be more than delighted to steer me in the right direction.
When we take crime figures as a whole, i am sure that if there was a prevent plan in place, it could save lives as the one's we have mentioned.
I find the very act of clubbing an animal to death, not in the wild by means of survival, but in a public place, very disturbing as are the signs of disturbance shown at an early age by the cases we have quoted.
If we didn't have the nanny state who gives more rights to the criminal than the victem, these children and youths would be taken in to re-habilitation before they had chance to commit more serious offences. That in it's self would drive down violent crime figures as a whole.
We live in a blame culture society. All i hear where-ever i go is blame.
Teenagers blame 'there's nothing to do'.
Teachers blame human rights for not allowing them to discipline un-ruling children.
Parents blame the government for imposing the 'no-smacking' rule.
Police officers blame their superiors.
The superiors blame the CPS and the call centre's.
The call centre's blame sloppy police.
Victems blame soft judges and magistrates.
It goes on and on until no-one is actually doing anything except passing the buck.
I agree with some of What Jack Straw is saying today.
Under New Labour dumdy dumdy dum but if we had a 'prevent' policy instead of 'let's wait and see what he does next' then lives would be saved. That was where we started?
And then we get you're quite right spot, it's nothing to do with New Labour at all that we don't have a 'prevent' policy.
Why post about the 'prevent' policy at all? Why not post about a genuine New Labour policy that's really theirs, that wasn't part of a previous government's laws and that you disapprove of. Which of these "ridiculous human rights laws" which "over-shadow common sense" - something I can look up and read as genuine New Labour legislation - are you criticizing?
I'm still just seeing buckshot propaganda.
I did say in a far earlier post that i didn't have the answers and what i try to do is to be as objectional as possible to other posters views.
To clarify myself, as i probably did not do so in my posts, i do blame Labour for the leniency shown by our police and courts.
Now where i get that proof, other than press propaganda, i'm not sure at the moment. I am sure during the week, my Tory councillors would be more than delighted to steer me in the right direction.
When we take crime figures as a whole, i am sure that if there was a prevent plan in place, it could save lives as the one's we have mentioned.
I find the very act of clubbing an animal to death, not in the wild by means of survival, but in a public place, very disturbing as are the signs of disturbance shown at an early age by the cases we have quoted.
If we didn't have the nanny state who gives more rights to the criminal than the victem, these children and youths would be taken in to re-habilitation before they had chance to commit more serious offences. That in it's self would drive down violent crime figures as a whole.
We live in a blame culture society. All i hear where-ever i go is blame.
Teenagers blame 'there's nothing to do'.
Teachers blame human rights for not allowing them to discipline un-ruling children.
Parents blame the government for imposing the 'no-smacking' rule.
Police officers blame their superiors.
The superiors blame the CPS and the call centre's.
The call centre's blame sloppy police.
Victems blame soft judges and magistrates.
It goes on and on until no-one is actually doing anything except passing the buck.
I agree with some of What Jack Straw is saying today.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1037031 wrote: When we take crime figures as a whole, i am sure that if there was a prevent plan in place, it could save lives as the one's we have mentioned.Well yes, obviously. The country took against the idea in 1215 when the King signed Magna Carta, since when we've avoided totalitarianism - for some reason you're recommending that we take the alternative path and goose-step through history instead. Meanwhile, the murder rate in England and Wales is as near as spit the same as it was a hundred years ago. The lies about public safety are the most worrying aspect of modern newspapers, there's no restraint, there's no rational discussion, there's just a feeding frenzy of unsubstantiated opinion based on unrepresentative extreme events which sells more copies and destroys the fabric of neighbourliness at the same time.
I don't lock my door unless I go on holiday. I'm a mile and a half from the city harbour. The times are the safest England's ever known, in my opinion. There's no street in town I'd not walk at any time of night. I quite often stroll back through Lockleaze, I like the area. Saint Paul's is where I go for a pint in the evening, there's some good pubs there. Mostly I walk, sometimes I use a bus but not often.
The only time I was ever knifed in a street fight was in the sixties. You have a local youth problem, so did where I lived then. The short term deciding factor is effective policing and better street lights and cameras which criminalizes those who've gone bad. Long term it's education which stops people going bad in the first place. We need both on a continuous basis.
I don't lock my door unless I go on holiday. I'm a mile and a half from the city harbour. The times are the safest England's ever known, in my opinion. There's no street in town I'd not walk at any time of night. I quite often stroll back through Lockleaze, I like the area. Saint Paul's is where I go for a pint in the evening, there's some good pubs there. Mostly I walk, sometimes I use a bus but not often.
The only time I was ever knifed in a street fight was in the sixties. You have a local youth problem, so did where I lived then. The short term deciding factor is effective policing and better street lights and cameras which criminalizes those who've gone bad. Long term it's education which stops people going bad in the first place. We need both on a continuous basis.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
This whole thread is sad to me..not everything a child does is solely at the hands of the parents..i have known of a seventeen year old who committed murder just for kicks..and came from a good family..middleclass, both parents in home, what he decided was to go down the drug road and then murder..at some point kids choose their paths.
We dont know anything about the parenting or homelife of the twelve years olds that killed the kangaroo..so i wont judge..i do believe the kids need to be punished..account for their actions..will they learn from this or not..i dont know..will they be followed up by a phychological exam..incarcerated..the laws will decide ..not me.
To blantantly state a child should be killed is horrendous to me..its no more judgemental than to say...all mentally ill adults should be sterilized..so as not to pass the metal illness down..this way of thinking is the start of once occured in the holocaust..if you dont fit the picture of "normal" you should be eliminated..:-5
You could follow that way of thinking down a terrible road. Sociopath children are born to "normal" parents..they grow up to become Sociopath adults..Once diagnosed with a mental illness that detours from the guidlines of "normal" , then would you have them killed REd? Would you go so far as to say that the defective genes should be stopped at whatever the costs..even so far as elimination of human beings ? Would you not also fall in the very category of killing "defective children" as you stated in this thread? :-2
I am not trying to illicit a fight here but only ask..at what point would you stop killing off what is not in the "norm"????????????????????????????
We dont know anything about the parenting or homelife of the twelve years olds that killed the kangaroo..so i wont judge..i do believe the kids need to be punished..account for their actions..will they learn from this or not..i dont know..will they be followed up by a phychological exam..incarcerated..the laws will decide ..not me.
To blantantly state a child should be killed is horrendous to me..its no more judgemental than to say...all mentally ill adults should be sterilized..so as not to pass the metal illness down..this way of thinking is the start of once occured in the holocaust..if you dont fit the picture of "normal" you should be eliminated..:-5
You could follow that way of thinking down a terrible road. Sociopath children are born to "normal" parents..they grow up to become Sociopath adults..Once diagnosed with a mental illness that detours from the guidlines of "normal" , then would you have them killed REd? Would you go so far as to say that the defective genes should be stopped at whatever the costs..even so far as elimination of human beings ? Would you not also fall in the very category of killing "defective children" as you stated in this thread? :-2
I am not trying to illicit a fight here but only ask..at what point would you stop killing off what is not in the "norm"????????????????????????????
-
Oscar Namechange
- Posts: 31840
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
guppy;1037059 wrote: This whole thread is sad to me..not everything a child does is solely at the hands of the parents..i have known of a seventeen year old who committed murder just for kicks..and came from a good family..middleclass, both parents in home, what he decided was to go down the drug road and then murder..at some point kids choose their paths.
We dont know anything about the parenting or homelife of the twelve years olds that killed the kangaroo..so i wont judge..i do believe the kids need to be punished..account for their actions..will they learn from this or not..i dont know..will they be followed up by a phychological exam..incarcerated..the laws will decide ..not me.
To blantantly state a child should be killed is horrendous to me..its no more judgemental than to say...all mentally ill adults should be sterilized..so as not to pass the metal illness down..this way of thinking is the start of once occured in the holocaust..if you dont fit the picture of "normal" you should be eliminated..:-5
You could follow that way of thinking down a terrible road. Sociopath children are born to "normal" parents..they grow up to become Sociopath adults..Once diagnosed with a mental illness that detours from the guidlines of "normal" , then would you have them killed REd? Would you go so far as to say that the defective genes should be stopped at whatever the costs..even so far as elimination of human beings ? Would you not also fall in the very category of killing "defective children" as you stated in this thread? :-2
I am not trying to illicit a fight here but only ask..at what point would you stop killing off what is not in the "norm"????????????????????????????
I think you'll find from the very beginning that it was not i who said defective children should be killed. I was the one in favour of a prison sentence.
I like alot of what you say but i do not agree with embryonic selection.
Whilst geneticsists are un-covering more and more research into faulty gene's being linked to physcotic tendencie's, the whole idea of 'designer babie's' revolts me.
Spot and i have debated the system of punishment vs re-habilitation for several pages, so i would not be bothering to do that should i believe that the boys should just be killed.
I have also critised the comments from the newspaper who broke the story here for putting readers views on line that the children should face death. That is stupid which i repeat incase you didn't read the post where i said it.
We dont know anything about the parenting or homelife of the twelve years olds that killed the kangaroo..so i wont judge..i do believe the kids need to be punished..account for their actions..will they learn from this or not..i dont know..will they be followed up by a phychological exam..incarcerated..the laws will decide ..not me.
To blantantly state a child should be killed is horrendous to me..its no more judgemental than to say...all mentally ill adults should be sterilized..so as not to pass the metal illness down..this way of thinking is the start of once occured in the holocaust..if you dont fit the picture of "normal" you should be eliminated..:-5
You could follow that way of thinking down a terrible road. Sociopath children are born to "normal" parents..they grow up to become Sociopath adults..Once diagnosed with a mental illness that detours from the guidlines of "normal" , then would you have them killed REd? Would you go so far as to say that the defective genes should be stopped at whatever the costs..even so far as elimination of human beings ? Would you not also fall in the very category of killing "defective children" as you stated in this thread? :-2
I am not trying to illicit a fight here but only ask..at what point would you stop killing off what is not in the "norm"????????????????????????????
I think you'll find from the very beginning that it was not i who said defective children should be killed. I was the one in favour of a prison sentence.
I like alot of what you say but i do not agree with embryonic selection.
Whilst geneticsists are un-covering more and more research into faulty gene's being linked to physcotic tendencie's, the whole idea of 'designer babie's' revolts me.
Spot and i have debated the system of punishment vs re-habilitation for several pages, so i would not be bothering to do that should i believe that the boys should just be killed.
I have also critised the comments from the newspaper who broke the story here for putting readers views on line that the children should face death. That is stupid which i repeat incase you didn't read the post where i said it.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning, we will remember them. R.L. Binyon
12 year old kids beat zoo kangaroo to death
oscar;1037092 wrote: I think you'll find from the very beginning that it was not i who said defective children should be killed. I was the one in favour of a prison sentence.
I like alot of what you say but i do not agree with embryonic selection.
Whilst geneticsists are un-covering more and more research into faulty gene's being linked to physcotic tendencie's, the whole idea of 'designer babie's' revolts me.
Spot and i have debated the system of punishment vs re-habilitation for several pages, so i would not be bothering to do that should i believe that the boys should just be killed.
I have also critised the comments from the newspaper who broke the story here for putting readers views on line that the children should face death. That is stupid which i repeat incase you didn't read the post where i said it.
my response was more directly toward Red..she is quick to say..kill the kids..as an answer to the problem..:-3
I like alot of what you say but i do not agree with embryonic selection.
Whilst geneticsists are un-covering more and more research into faulty gene's being linked to physcotic tendencie's, the whole idea of 'designer babie's' revolts me.
Spot and i have debated the system of punishment vs re-habilitation for several pages, so i would not be bothering to do that should i believe that the boys should just be killed.
I have also critised the comments from the newspaper who broke the story here for putting readers views on line that the children should face death. That is stupid which i repeat incase you didn't read the post where i said it.
my response was more directly toward Red..she is quick to say..kill the kids..as an answer to the problem..:-3