Mr. Accountable, would you care to discuss some historical documents with me?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:55 am

You do know of course that the bill of rights is a rip off from "The Agreement of The People" put forward by the English Levellers in 1647 don't you? Those early socialist ideologues who found themselves in deep **** for daring to suggest all men are equal and therefore one man one vote should be the order of the day.:sneaky:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:49 am

gmc;1047449 wrote: You do know of course that the bill of rights is a rip off from "The Agreement of The People" put forward by the English Levellers in 1647 don't you? Those early socialist ideologues who found themselves in deep **** for daring to suggest all men are equal and therefore one man one vote should be the order of the day.:sneaky:
Think how proud they must be that their ideas found purchase. :-6

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:05 am

Hoss;1047383 wrote: I'll start and get the ball rolling: Sentence by sentence is that ok?

'The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,'

A unanimous decision at that time in history or in any time of history is not an easy thing to accomplish to me. It seems someone is always in opposition to common sense. So I admire the groups ability to come together and set forth this document. I'm sure it was no easy task to get all to agree.

I always find it odd that they did not capitalize 'U'-nited, in the Name 'The United States of America.' It seems to me to be a key component in concept of America, the Unity we share. I suppose the number of colonies is not important, but it does throw a wrench in the unlucky number 13 idea doesn't it? :wah:

:)Gee, I'm kinda intimidated by the title, but sure, it'll be a fun discussion. Chonsi is a far better historian than I, being a real one and all. Others are invited, right? :-3

Ya think anybody tried to oust one colony to improve the luck? I'll bet after some of the arguments that a few delegates might really consider the suggestion.

I'm also pretty sure that was the last sentence that was agreed upon. Each of them had to swallow hard to accept one point or another that someone else would not give up on, the most famous being the slavery issue. I'm not sure I could have been so practical.

The capitalization and grammar rules of the 18th century were different from ours today, so I could be wrong, but I believe the sentence shows the importance the group put on the invididuality, parity, and importance of the States. I've said before that if the union were more important than the individual states, they would have given it a name.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:17 am

Declaration wrote: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.Translation: "I guess we should tell ya'll why."

When ... it becomes necessary ... to assume ... the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them ...

Trimming this down to something closer to our English (something I've never done before), it strikes me that we truly do allow other people to take a station "above" us. We delegate our power to the government, and history shows how incredibly difficult it is to wrest that power - that entitlement of separate and equal station granted by Nature and Nature's God - back when we find it being misused.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:51 am

gmc;1047449 wrote: You do know of course that the bill of rights is a rip off from "The Agreement of The People" put forward by the English Levellers in 1647 don't you? Those early socialist ideologues who found themselves in deep **** for daring to suggest all men are equal and therefore one man one vote should be the order of the day.:sneaky:

I love you :-4

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:32 am

Hoss;1047782 wrote: LOL, no I did not know that, that is interesting. I will have to google that this evening when I have more time.

Allow me to help

BBC - History - The Levellers and the Tradition of Dissent

You are in a very real sense their inheritors

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:56 pm

Hoss;1047815 wrote: You mean whole heartedly agreed upon without argument or reluctance? Do you know of other issues that they may have argued or had reluctance over?Not off the top of my head, but HBO had a great series that covered it. John Adams

[quote=Hoss]I wonder if Lincoln considered them co-equal. I can see how both would need each other. Practically speaking without the states there is no union, and without the union the states stood less of a chance of surviving.Good point.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:05 pm

Hoss;1048486 wrote: [quote=Accountable;1048484]

I'm going to have to look into that. I think this may be a slow thread, I have studying to do in my EMT course and my fire classes and there is a lot to consider.

I have a copy of the constitution one that my dad got when he was very young (1976), I was looking at the signatures. I can imagine them signing it. Maybe they were wondering if they would even survive the first year?

Can you imagine it?
Index of Signers by State

Some lost everything.

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:17 pm

it's amazing to me the courage it took for them to sign that document!

they were risking their lives!

Hope6 · Post by **Hope6** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:33 pm

Hoss;1048500 wrote: I like that they were fully commited. So many today don't live their convictions. They are easily swayed by the slightest negative circumstance. I want my life to count for something, if I change course very time I meet opposition I'm just going to waste my life running in circles.

i agree Hoss, i try to live my convictions too!

a favorite of mine from that time period is our own local figure Patrick Henry, his give me liberty or give me death speech is very inspiring.

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:33 pm

'The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,'

It was unanimous, because every state wanted to be part of the new nation. Otherwise, it would have contained a different number of states in the opening line.

Declaration of Independence

From the Archives, a link about it.

Declaration of Independence

It is there, in the Rotunda for the Charters of Freedom

Rotunda for the Charters of Freedom

You can see it if you visit the Archives, I think about it when I go to research, two floors underneath where the research rooms are. I go to visit it every other trip or so, to see it, listen to what people are saying while they are viewing it, and return upstairs to putter around and think about it.

(and no, National Treasure never showed the real room in the Archives, the footage was shot in the Library of Congress, only the outside was real, the researchers entrance made out to be the main entrance)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:43 am

We hold these truths to be self-evident,

that all men are created equal,

that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

:-6:) Let's just bask in that one just a sec, shall we?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:01 am

# that all men are created equal,

# that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

# that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

Should really have been amended to add in "except those who according to my interpretation of the bible are not quite as equal as me- and indeed may not even be human-and it is my god given right to take it and dispose of them as I please"

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:02 am

# that all men are created equal,

# that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

# that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

Should really have been amended to add in "except those who according to my interpretation of the bible are not quite as equal as me- and indeed may not even be human-and it is my god given right to take it and dispose of them as I please"

Doesn't of course detract from the power of the words. all are created equal.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 5:36 am

gmc;1051485 wrote: .--

Should really have been amended to add in "except those who according to my interpretation of the bible are not quite as equal as me- and indeed may not even be human-and it is my god given right to take it and dispose of them as I please"

Doesn't of course detract from the power of the words. all are created equal.
Nice recovery. That's why I stated I might not've been able to sign that document if I had been there. Like Nomad pointed out before, I'm too rigid in my ideals to be a politician.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:00 am

Accountable;1047503 wrote: Think how proud they must be that their ideas found purchase. :-6

:wah: :wah: :wah: